Armada ski boots released today.

scratchskier321my main point is that abducted lasts & outwards hinge cuff boots are pointless in modern sidecut skis, they don't make sense in nuetral or valgus stance people, it applies too much inwards input to the ski, etc etc

So you can make the point abducted last and more torque from ski boot can be needed racing 26m radius plus or tight slalom turns... but that's not what Amer employee is saying, he's saying I'm wrong because I have no data and I don't ski the boot. Which neither are true because I have 2 primes, AR one, used to have multiple ultras and an XTD prime. He uses to word "data" to dismiss the logical arguments I make about alignment. Even if I introduced strain gauge sensor data to this post, he would dismiss it.

Amer employee says all the people we pay or give product to for free, love it. That is his main argument against mine.

The Bode in rear entry boots troll is too good though.

Anway, let me ask comprehension question so understand: If I am slightly duckfooted in my boot because of abduction in the clog and my boot has an outward flexing cuff, then how does that put more pressure on my inside edge? If everything is pointing outward, wouldn't pressure transfer to the outside edge?

scratchskier321Your best explanation for why the last is abducted is because other brands do it too. If an abducted last is good, why are you malingering the lines in the photo to make it appear straight? The photo speaks for itself, even w/o the lines the projection of the heel pocket is outwards. Anyone can see the heel pocket curvature in relation to the spine bolts. My logic is well explained in every post, which you have yet to address on merit.

Posting pictures of bode in old shells does not debunk his podcast logic regarding outward flexing boots increasing edge angle beyond what your knee is doing, the design comes from initiating turn with skis with no sidecut, him describing how true the initial response of his ski is with straighter last and hinge. All of my posts are in more detail than what he described and every time you reply to one, its an ad hominen, red herring, or strawman argument.

I own 2 pair of primes, AR one, and like 12 armada skis. I'm not even bias LOL, armada is my favorite brand.

May we all ski in peace

1. I am not malingering your lines, I am correcting them. Your drawing of the Hawx last ignores most of the medial half of the boot; I indicate where it is generally going. A straight line will only tell a small fraction of the story, but it does indicate a more general truth which yours lacks. Same for the Dalbello - are you even serious with your depiction of it?

2. Bode's logic has led him to these boots, which he is pictured wearing, on Christmas 2024. I think it's a rather valid indication of his current mindset concerning ski boots.

3. I don't think you understand how informal fallacies work. I have not attacked your person (ad hominem), I have not attempted to distract you with misinformation or irrelevant information (red herring), nor have I rephrased your argument in a weaker, irrelevant form and attacked it instead (straw man). I'm going after your unfounded claim that this stance is dangerous, causes people's tips to cross, and causes turns to smear. If any of these were the case, we would hear far more people complaining about it, which they are not doing. However nice your claims may sound, I don't see your claims presenting themselves in real life scenarios, i.e. they are not reflected in the data we have.

dubageThe Bode in rear entry boots troll is too good though.

I know from someone skiing with Bode that week that he put 6hrs of work into them and legitimately loves those boots.

This arguing over abducted foot and shit is kinda funny. Who would I trust first? The top guy leading boot design at atomic or some guy on Newschoolers? I wonder who is the better source of information

onenerdykidI know from someone skiing with Bode that week that he put 6hrs of work into them and legitimately loves those boots.

Now we can only hope he finds a way to market them! hahaha

snormanThis arguing over abducted foot and shit is kinda funny. Who would I trust first? The top guy leading boot design at atomic or some guy on Newschoolers? I wonder who is the better source of information

I'm not trying to trust anyone. I want to see the logic in the biomechanics visually, because I have a hunch there are many people out there with shit movement patterns getting fit into boots in ways that accommodate their compensation patterns.

onenerdykid1. I am not malingering your lines, I am correcting them. Your drawing of the Hawx last ignores most of the medial half of the boot; I indicate where it is generally going. A straight line will only tell a small fraction of the story, but it does indicate a more general truth which yours lacks. Same for the Dalbello - are you even serious with your depiction of it?

2. Bode's logic has led him to these boots, which he is pictured wearing, on Christmas 2024. I think it's a rather valid indication of his current mindset concerning ski boots.

3. I don't think you understand how informal fallacies work. I have not attacked your person (ad hominem), I have not attempted to distract you with misinformation or irrelevant information (red herring), nor have I rephrased your argument in a weaker, irrelevant form and attacked it instead (straw man). I'm going after your unfounded claim that this stance is dangerous, causes people's tips to cross, and causes turns to smear. If any of these were the case, we would hear far more people complaining about it, which they are not doing. However nice your claims may sound, I don't see your claims presenting themselves in real life scenarios, i.e. they are not reflected in the data we have.

I can't believe YOUR depiction of it is real!!!! DS, Tecnica MV, Veloce, Shadow MV, Cabrio MV/LV etc etc all of these boots don't have outwards projected heel pocket curvature. and its glaringly obvious. The way it is designed into AR-prime is actually extreme in comparison to everything else. Ignoring medial half of boot?????? The AR-prime leaves no relief for navi or 1st met. Tecnica MV, veloce, cabrio do it for both areas. I understand the DS in the photo is tight in the navicular but at least the DS leaves relief for 1st met inside the lugs. The AR-prime sets the whole foot at angle tilted outwards of the lugs.

#2 is red herring and strawman, you never address the underlying mechanics of my posts

Your doing it again right now, "causes people's tip to cross" my quote "tips feel they're gonna cross"

every single time you change the subject is logical fallacy. internal/external last, ask sage, XYZ unrelated topic over and over.

you have yet to address any of my statements on alignment, cuff function, use cases for abduction last vs not, etc. Every single time i've posted things along the lines of why do we need extra inwards input from ski boots on modern sidecut skis, you just ignore the point.

You sound like AI

snormanThis arguing over abducted foot and shit is kinda funny. Who would I trust first? The top guy leading boot design at atomic or some guy on Newschoolers? I wonder who is the better source of information

be that as it may, all of my arguments are laid out in this thread clearly to be judged. Amer employee is only relying on his status to refute them.

snormanThis arguing over abducted foot and shit is kinda funny. Who would I trust first? The top guy leading boot design at atomic or some guy on Newschoolers? I wonder who is the better source of information

for context, i have basically every single boot. more in storage not pictured, lol

**This post was edited on Jan 13th 2025 at 6:51:02pm

Shouts out to Scratch for absolutely nuking a thread with some bullshit nobody but him and Bode miller apparently care about!

profa_212Shouts out to Scratch for absolutely nuking a thread with some bullshit nobody but him and Bode miller apparently care about!

:) thx g, standing on the fundamentals

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t the shell molding capabilities of AMER boots (I.e memory fit) adjust the last enough to make that abduction stuff not happen on people whose feet don’t need it to happen? This does entail that they need to shell mold.

snormanCorrect me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t the shell molding capabilities of AMER boots (I.e memory fit) adjust the last enough to make that abduction stuff not happen on people whose feet don’t need it to happen? This does entail that they need to shell mold.

yes. but when you heat up the shell completely it loses all intended structure and skis like trash. how you would do it is sand out the lateral side heel pocket, punch navicular, punch 1st met and 1st toe... then your foot would sit straight in the AR-prime. But realistically you just buy a different boot, not worth the time.

scratchskier321I can't believe YOUR depiction of it is real!!!! DS, Tecnica MV, Veloce, Shadow MV, Cabrio MV/LV etc etc all of these boots don't have outwards projected heel pocket curvature. and its glaringly obvious. The way it is designed into AR-prime is actually extreme in comparison to everything else. Ignoring medial half of boot?????? The AR-prime leaves no relief for navi or 1st met. Tecnica MV, veloce, cabrio do it for both areas. I understand the DS in the photo is tight in the navicular but at least the DS leaves relief for 1st met inside the lugs. The AR-prime sets the whole foot at angle tilted outwards of the lugs.

#2 is red herring and strawman, you never address the underlying mechanics of my posts

Your doing it again right now, "causes people's tip to cross" my quote "tips feel they're gonna cross"

every single time you change the subject is logical fallacy. internal/external last, ask sage, XYZ unrelated topic over and over.

you have yet to address any of my statements on alignment, cuff function, use cases for abduction last vs not, etc. Every single time i've posted things along the lines of why do we need extra inwards input from ski boots on modern sidecut skis, you just ignore the point.

You sound like AI

Since I’ve never been here to simply score points for my team, my apologies for unintentionally misquoting you. Be that as it may, the rest of my argument still stands, plus you have yet to address how this geometry is dangerous. You definitely keep dodging that point, every single time. And since you know my actual name, you are getting very close to committing an ad hominem fallacy yourself with how you label me in an attempt to disparage me.

Let’s also stop with the straight-line drawing nonsense – it’s wrong from the beginning since there are not straight lines anywhere on the last. Your depiction is not accurate and does not take into account any of the curvatures & shapes the shell has. It is a misrepresentation from the very beginning.

This is what you have: a claim, which barely amounts to a hypothesis. You have no data to support your hypothesis. It is not up to me to disprove your hypothesis – this is not how scientific experimentation works. The burden of proof is on you to support your claims with data. It is not on me to refute your empty hypothesis.

Our last geometry is the result of producing ski boots for over 40 years (our head of R&D started at Koflach in 1983) and the thousands & thousands of hours of testing with average skiers, expert skiers, professional instructors, and professional athletes that continues to this very day, on modern & current skis. The recipe that we have is a result of all of this testing and what skiers prefer using. Meanwhile, you are literally drawing straight lines that have no basis in reality while sitting at keyboard. You can rely on Chat GPT all you want, your claims are nothing more than that – just empty claims with no data to support them.

onenerdykidSince I’ve never been here to simply score points for my team, my apologies for unintentionally misquoting you. Be that as it may, the rest of my argument still stands, plus you have yet to address how this geometry is dangerous. You definitely keep dodging that point, every single time. And since you know my actual name, you are getting very close to committing an ad hominem fallacy yourself with how you label me in an attempt to disparage me.

Let’s also stop with the straight-line drawing nonsense – it’s wrong from the beginning since there are not straight lines anywhere on the last. Your depiction is not accurate and does not take into account any of the curvatures & shapes the shell has. It is a misrepresentation from the very beginning.

This is what you have: a claim, which barely amounts to a hypothesis. You have no data to support your hypothesis. It is not up to me to disprove your hypothesis – this is not how scientific experimentation works. The burden of proof is on you to support your claims with data. It is not on me to refute your empty hypothesis.

Our last geometry is the result of producing ski boots for over 40 years (our head of R&D started at Koflach in 1983) and the thousands & thousands of hours of testing with average skiers, expert skiers, professional instructors, and professional athletes that continues to this very day, on modern & current skis. The recipe that we have is a result of all of this testing and what skiers prefer using. Meanwhile, you are literally drawing straight lines that have no basis in reality while sitting at keyboard. You can rely on Chat GPT all you want, your claims are nothing more than that – just empty claims with no data to support them.

I'm looking at every boot IRL, I have skied them all, this is reality.

I've explained why it's dangerous in like 3 posts. intial under edged, mid turn response, outside ski angle into next turn. All of these things cause off balance positioning. If you are not varus aligned, it causes too much inwards input to the ski, too early. The deeper you get into the flex, the more it applies inward torque to the ski, adding beyond what the radius of the ski wants. Off balance positioning causes falls, falls are dangerous. Foot out, knee in is not a safe position, this is why they teach ppl to kick someone's knee in that direction for self defense.

The straight lines were there to demonstrate direction, they don't even need to be on it, the picture shows abduction and outwards heel pocket projection. The AR/prime positions your foot outwards in relation to the lugs, you said its by design 2.5. If you drive heel back deep into AR/prime you will feel your heel get directed outwards. I added more photos to demonstrate the angulation. The way the AR/prime heel pocket shape is turned into the medial wall is extremely unique. The offset in relation to the center line is unique.

The more I explain the more upset your responses are.

scratchskier321I'm looking at every boot IRL, I have skied them all, this is reality.

If you are not varus aligned, it causes too much inwards input to the ski, too early. The deeper you get into the flex, the more it applies inward torque to the ski, adding beyond what the radius of the ski wants. Off balance positioning causes falls, falls are dangerous. Foot out, knee in is not a safe position...

Okay, if your foot is turned out and the cuff is aligned straight, I can see pressure going to the inside edge. But aren't the cuffs also aligned outward? How does this create a knee-in position? Cuff flexes out, knee goes out, weight goes over outside edge, no? What am I missing here?



If you look into that Goata movement stuff, the basic human anatomy is a straight foot, high arch, and slightly varus knee position due to outward hip and ankle rotation. As the body flexes, hips go back and rotate outward creating a more varus knee position while the foot stays straight. The tibia rotates atop the foot slightly elevating the heel and driving pressure into the outside of the foot where the arch contacts the ground. At the same time, the upper body shifts laterally and rotates into the lead leg creating a spiral tension that gets driven into the ground to create forward locomotion.

In skiing, my hunch is that the duck-footedness of ski boots is adapting to a compensation pattern of limited rotational ankle mobility. The outward cuff flex makes sense anatomically, but it might not make sense when anatomy must drive a ski instead of walk or run. I take your point that duck-footedness in the shell isn't optimal for those with normal movement patterns and mobility, but if someone has a weak flat pronated foot with no ankle rotational ability they will have a foot that points outward as their hip rotates outward. It seems to me that this duck-footed design is an adaptation to this weak flat anti-mobile foot and ankle, while the cuff direction is anatomically accurate.

This thread is awesome.