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They released flexes from 90 to 130. looks like you can also use it for touring. Will this boot feel good with that middle buckle, idk about these boots. Yes they instantly sold out.
scratchskier321my main point is that abducted lasts & outwards hinge cuff boots are pointless in modern sidecut skis, they don't make sense in nuetral or valgus stance people, it applies too much inwards input to the ski, etc etc
So you can make the point abducted last and more torque from ski boot can be needed racing 26m radius plus or tight slalom turns... but that's not what Amer employee is saying, he's saying I'm wrong because I have no data and I don't ski the boot. Which neither are true because I have 2 primes, AR one, used to have multiple ultras and an XTD prime. He uses to word "data" to dismiss the logical arguments I make about alignment. Even if I introduced strain gauge sensor data to this post, he would dismiss it.
Amer employee says all the people we pay or give product to for free, love it. That is his main argument against mine.
The Bode in rear entry boots troll is too good though.
Anway, let me ask comprehension question so understand: If I am slightly duckfooted in my boot because of abduction in the clog and my boot has an outward flexing cuff, then how does that put more pressure on my inside edge? If everything is pointing outward, wouldn't pressure transfer to the outside edge?
scratchskier321Your best explanation for why the last is abducted is because other brands do it too. If an abducted last is good, why are you malingering the lines in the photo to make it appear straight? The photo speaks for itself, even w/o the lines the projection of the heel pocket is outwards. Anyone can see the heel pocket curvature in relation to the spine bolts. My logic is well explained in every post, which you have yet to address on merit.
Posting pictures of bode in old shells does not debunk his podcast logic regarding outward flexing boots increasing edge angle beyond what your knee is doing, the design comes from initiating turn with skis with no sidecut, him describing how true the initial response of his ski is with straighter last and hinge. All of my posts are in more detail than what he described and every time you reply to one, its an ad hominen, red herring, or strawman argument.
I own 2 pair of primes, AR one, and like 12 armada skis. I'm not even bias LOL, armada is my favorite brand.
May we all ski in peace
1. I am not malingering your lines, I am correcting them. Your drawing of the Hawx last ignores most of the medial half of the boot; I indicate where it is generally going. A straight line will only tell a small fraction of the story, but it does indicate a more general truth which yours lacks. Same for the Dalbello - are you even serious with your depiction of it?
2. Bode's logic has led him to these boots, which he is pictured wearing, on Christmas 2024. I think it's a rather valid indication of his current mindset concerning ski boots.
3. I don't think you understand how informal fallacies work. I have not attacked your person (ad hominem), I have not attempted to distract you with misinformation or irrelevant information (red herring), nor have I rephrased your argument in a weaker, irrelevant form and attacked it instead (straw man). I'm going after your unfounded claim that this stance is dangerous, causes people's tips to cross, and causes turns to smear. If any of these were the case, we would hear far more people complaining about it, which they are not doing. However nice your claims may sound, I don't see your claims presenting themselves in real life scenarios, i.e. they are not reflected in the data we have.
This arguing over abducted foot and shit is kinda funny. Who would I trust first? The top guy leading boot design at atomic or some guy on Newschoolers? I wonder who is the better source of information
snormanThis arguing over abducted foot and shit is kinda funny. Who would I trust first? The top guy leading boot design at atomic or some guy on Newschoolers? I wonder who is the better source of information
I'm not trying to trust anyone. I want to see the logic in the biomechanics visually, because I have a hunch there are many people out there with shit movement patterns getting fit into boots in ways that accommodate their compensation patterns.
onenerdykid1. I am not malingering your lines, I am correcting them. Your drawing of the Hawx last ignores most of the medial half of the boot; I indicate where it is generally going. A straight line will only tell a small fraction of the story, but it does indicate a more general truth which yours lacks. Same for the Dalbello - are you even serious with your depiction of it?
2. Bode's logic has led him to these boots, which he is pictured wearing, on Christmas 2024. I think it's a rather valid indication of his current mindset concerning ski boots.
3. I don't think you understand how informal fallacies work. I have not attacked your person (ad hominem), I have not attempted to distract you with misinformation or irrelevant information (red herring), nor have I rephrased your argument in a weaker, irrelevant form and attacked it instead (straw man). I'm going after your unfounded claim that this stance is dangerous, causes people's tips to cross, and causes turns to smear. If any of these were the case, we would hear far more people complaining about it, which they are not doing. However nice your claims may sound, I don't see your claims presenting themselves in real life scenarios, i.e. they are not reflected in the data we have.
I can't believe YOUR depiction of it is real!!!! DS, Tecnica MV, Veloce, Shadow MV, Cabrio MV/LV etc etc all of these boots don't have outwards projected heel pocket curvature. and its glaringly obvious. The way it is designed into AR-prime is actually extreme in comparison to everything else. Ignoring medial half of boot?????? The AR-prime leaves no relief for navi or 1st met. Tecnica MV, veloce, cabrio do it for both areas. I understand the DS in the photo is tight in the navicular but at least the DS leaves relief for 1st met inside the lugs. The AR-prime sets the whole foot at angle tilted outwards of the lugs.
#2 is red herring and strawman, you never address the underlying mechanics of my posts
Your doing it again right now, "causes people's tip to cross" my quote "tips feel they're gonna cross"
every single time you change the subject is logical fallacy. internal/external last, ask sage, XYZ unrelated topic over and over.
you have yet to address any of my statements on alignment, cuff function, use cases for abduction last vs not, etc. Every single time i've posted things along the lines of why do we need extra inwards input from ski boots on modern sidecut skis, you just ignore the point.
snormanThis arguing over abducted foot and shit is kinda funny. Who would I trust first? The top guy leading boot design at atomic or some guy on Newschoolers? I wonder who is the better source of information
be that as it may, all of my arguments are laid out in this thread clearly to be judged. Amer employee is only relying on his status to refute them.
snormanThis arguing over abducted foot and shit is kinda funny. Who would I trust first? The top guy leading boot design at atomic or some guy on Newschoolers? I wonder who is the better source of information
for context, i have basically every single boot. more in storage not pictured, lol
**This post was edited on Jan 13th 2025 at 6:51:02pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t the shell molding capabilities of AMER boots (I.e memory fit) adjust the last enough to make that abduction stuff not happen on people whose feet don’t need it to happen? This does entail that they need to shell mold.
snormanCorrect me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t the shell molding capabilities of AMER boots (I.e memory fit) adjust the last enough to make that abduction stuff not happen on people whose feet don’t need it to happen? This does entail that they need to shell mold.
yes. but when you heat up the shell completely it loses all intended structure and skis like trash. how you would do it is sand out the lateral side heel pocket, punch navicular, punch 1st met and 1st toe... then your foot would sit straight in the AR-prime. But realistically you just buy a different boot, not worth the time.
scratchskier321I can't believe YOUR depiction of it is real!!!! DS, Tecnica MV, Veloce, Shadow MV, Cabrio MV/LV etc etc all of these boots don't have outwards projected heel pocket curvature. and its glaringly obvious. The way it is designed into AR-prime is actually extreme in comparison to everything else. Ignoring medial half of boot?????? The AR-prime leaves no relief for navi or 1st met. Tecnica MV, veloce, cabrio do it for both areas. I understand the DS in the photo is tight in the navicular but at least the DS leaves relief for 1st met inside the lugs. The AR-prime sets the whole foot at angle tilted outwards of the lugs.
#2 is red herring and strawman, you never address the underlying mechanics of my posts
Your doing it again right now, "causes people's tip to cross" my quote "tips feel they're gonna cross"
every single time you change the subject is logical fallacy. internal/external last, ask sage, XYZ unrelated topic over and over.
you have yet to address any of my statements on alignment, cuff function, use cases for abduction last vs not, etc. Every single time i've posted things along the lines of why do we need extra inwards input from ski boots on modern sidecut skis, you just ignore the point.
You sound like AI
Since I’ve never been here to simply score points for my team, my apologies for unintentionally misquoting you. Be that as it may, the rest of my argument still stands, plus you have yet to address how this geometry is dangerous. You definitely keep dodging that point, every single time. And since you know my actual name, you are getting very close to committing an ad hominem fallacy yourself with how you label me in an attempt to disparage me.
Let’s also stop with the straight-line drawing nonsense – it’s wrong from the beginning since there are not straight lines anywhere on the last. Your depiction is not accurate and does not take into account any of the curvatures & shapes the shell has. It is a misrepresentation from the very beginning.
This is what you have: a claim, which barely amounts to a hypothesis. You have no data to support your hypothesis. It is not up to me to disprove your hypothesis – this is not how scientific experimentation works. The burden of proof is on you to support your claims with data. It is not on me to refute your empty hypothesis.
Our last geometry is the result of producing ski boots for over 40 years (our head of R&D started at Koflach in 1983) and the thousands & thousands of hours of testing with average skiers, expert skiers, professional instructors, and professional athletes that continues to this very day, on modern & current skis. The recipe that we have is a result of all of this testing and what skiers prefer using. Meanwhile, you are literally drawing straight lines that have no basis in reality while sitting at keyboard. You can rely on Chat GPT all you want, your claims are nothing more than that – just empty claims with no data to support them.
onenerdykidSince I’ve never been here to simply score points for my team, my apologies for unintentionally misquoting you. Be that as it may, the rest of my argument still stands, plus you have yet to address how this geometry is dangerous. You definitely keep dodging that point, every single time. And since you know my actual name, you are getting very close to committing an ad hominem fallacy yourself with how you label me in an attempt to disparage me.
Let’s also stop with the straight-line drawing nonsense – it’s wrong from the beginning since there are not straight lines anywhere on the last. Your depiction is not accurate and does not take into account any of the curvatures & shapes the shell has. It is a misrepresentation from the very beginning.
This is what you have: a claim, which barely amounts to a hypothesis. You have no data to support your hypothesis. It is not up to me to disprove your hypothesis – this is not how scientific experimentation works. The burden of proof is on you to support your claims with data. It is not on me to refute your empty hypothesis.
Our last geometry is the result of producing ski boots for over 40 years (our head of R&D started at Koflach in 1983) and the thousands & thousands of hours of testing with average skiers, expert skiers, professional instructors, and professional athletes that continues to this very day, on modern & current skis. The recipe that we have is a result of all of this testing and what skiers prefer using. Meanwhile, you are literally drawing straight lines that have no basis in reality while sitting at keyboard. You can rely on Chat GPT all you want, your claims are nothing more than that – just empty claims with no data to support them.
I'm looking at every boot IRL, I have skied them all, this is reality.
I've explained why it's dangerous in like 3 posts. intial under edged, mid turn response, outside ski angle into next turn. All of these things cause off balance positioning. If you are not varus aligned, it causes too much inwards input to the ski, too early. The deeper you get into the flex, the more it applies inward torque to the ski, adding beyond what the radius of the ski wants. Off balance positioning causes falls, falls are dangerous. Foot out, knee in is not a safe position, this is why they teach ppl to kick someone's knee in that direction for self defense.
The straight lines were there to demonstrate direction, they don't even need to be on it, the picture shows abduction and outwards heel pocket projection. The AR/prime positions your foot outwards in relation to the lugs, you said its by design 2.5. If you drive heel back deep into AR/prime you will feel your heel get directed outwards. I added more photos to demonstrate the angulation. The way the AR/prime heel pocket shape is turned into the medial wall is extremely unique. The offset in relation to the center line is unique.
The more I explain the more upset your responses are.
scratchskier321I'm looking at every boot IRL, I have skied them all, this is reality.
If you are not varus aligned, it causes too much inwards input to the ski, too early. The deeper you get into the flex, the more it applies inward torque to the ski, adding beyond what the radius of the ski wants. Off balance positioning causes falls, falls are dangerous. Foot out, knee in is not a safe position...
Okay, if your foot is turned out and the cuff is aligned straight, I can see pressure going to the inside edge. But aren't the cuffs also aligned outward? How does this create a knee-in position? Cuff flexes out, knee goes out, weight goes over outside edge, no? What am I missing here?
If you look into that Goata movement stuff, the basic human anatomy is a straight foot, high arch, and slightly varus knee position due to outward hip and ankle rotation. As the body flexes, hips go back and rotate outward creating a more varus knee position while the foot stays straight. The tibia rotates atop the foot slightly elevating the heel and driving pressure into the outside of the foot where the arch contacts the ground. At the same time, the upper body shifts laterally and rotates into the lead leg creating a spiral tension that gets driven into the ground to create forward locomotion.
In skiing, my hunch is that the duck-footedness of ski boots is adapting to a compensation pattern of limited rotational ankle mobility. The outward cuff flex makes sense anatomically, but it might not make sense when anatomy must drive a ski instead of walk or run. I take your point that duck-footedness in the shell isn't optimal for those with normal movement patterns and mobility, but if someone has a weak flat pronated foot with no ankle rotational ability they will have a foot that points outward as their hip rotates outward. It seems to me that this duck-footed design is an adaptation to this weak flat anti-mobile foot and ankle, while the cuff direction is anatomically accurate.
dubageOkay, if your foot is turned out and the cuff is aligned straight, I can see pressure going to the inside edge. But aren't the cuffs also aligned outward? How does this create a knee-in position? Cuff flexes out, knee goes out, weight goes over outside edge, no? What am I missing here?
If you look into that Goata movement stuff, the basic human anatomy is a straight foot, high arch, and slightly varus knee position due to outward hip and ankle rotation. As the body flexes, hips go back and rotate outward creating a more varus knee position while the foot stays straight. The tibia rotates atop the foot slightly elevating the heel and driving pressure into the outside of the foot where the arch contacts the ground. At the same time, the upper body shifts laterally and rotates into the lead leg creating a spiral tension that gets driven into the ground to create forward locomotion.
In skiing, my hunch is that the duck-footedness of ski boots is adapting to a compensation pattern of limited rotational ankle mobility. The outward cuff flex makes sense anatomically, but it might not make sense when anatomy must drive a ski instead of walk or run. I take your point that duck-footedness in the shell isn't optimal for those with normal movement patterns and mobility, but if someone has a weak flat pronated foot with no ankle rotational ability they will have a foot that points outward as their hip rotates outward. It seems to me that this duck-footed design is an adaptation to this weak flat anti-mobile foot and ankle, while the cuff direction is anatomically accurate.
This thread is awesome.
Correct. The hinge/cuffs that are aligned outwards accentuates a similar inwards style input that the abducted last does. They are not the same mechanically, but the result is comparable. This is specifically what bode was talking about in the pod.
The cuff aligned outwards does not create knee-in position, it just creates torque between the cuff and clog that transmits to the ski. It adds inside edge grip and earlier engagement of the edge, it feels roughly similar to a outward canted boot. You apply force with shin into the cuff, which transmits to the clog, and when cuff if set like 3* out from the clog that creates and inwards torque that translates to the ski.
When you ski that OG tilt shell bode is describing, you experience very little input from the boot adding to the turn of the ski. you mainly feel only ski radius turning you. Boots with abducted lasts or outwards hinge/cuff you feel the boot adding "turn input" to the ski on top of what the radius is already doing.
you should think of the abducted last as creating "knee CoM tracking inwards of second toe (under edged, in canting alignment terms) and then a very direct medial response from the boot in the middle of the turn because when you pronate into a last that is titled outwards the medial wall is right there on navicular"
the outwards cuff alignment in relation to the clog, is more like "early edge initiation & strong response, and you need to be careful to not over cook it as you flex deeper into the shell, it adds turn input to the ski. if you ski OG tilt shell/cabrio and a lange back to back it's very noticeable how much the cuff orientation adds to the turn"
scratchskier321I'm looking at every boot IRL, I have skied them all, this is reality.
I've explained why it's dangerous in like 3 posts. intial under edged, mid turn response, outside ski angle into next turn. All of these things cause off balance positioning. If you are not varus aligned, it causes too much inwards input to the ski, too early. The deeper you get into the flex, the more it applies inward torque to the ski, adding beyond what the radius of the ski wants. Off balance positioning causes falls, falls are dangerous. Foot out, knee in is not a safe position, this is why they teach ppl to kick someone's knee in that direction for self defense.
The straight lines were there to demonstrate direction, they don't even need to be on it, the picture shows abduction and outwards heel pocket projection. The AR/prime positions your foot outwards in relation to the lugs, you said its by design 2.5. If you drive heel back deep into AR/prime you will feel your heel get directed outwards. I added more photos to demonstrate the angulation. The way the AR/prime heel pocket shape is turned into the medial wall is extremely unique. The offset in relation to the center line is unique.
The more I explain the more upset your responses are.
If it were as dangerous as you say it is, why do you keep buying atomic boots that have this shaped last? Can’t actually be a big deal if you have all those boots.
Also have you taken any anatomy course? Any biomechanics course? What actual education besides I looked at it and I skied them and this is what I think do you have that makes you think this. Not trying to argue just what you to have the right knowledge to back up your points that you are saying. I’m hearing a lot of contradictory things on this thread and want to get them straight, but having a hard time believing yours considering the fact you still ski boots you are going on about being terribly dangerous.
snormanIf it were as dangerous as you say it is, why do you keep buying atomic boots that have this shaped last? Can’t actually be a big deal if you have all those boots.
Also have you taken any anatomy course? Any biomechanics course? What actual education besides I looked at it and I skied them and this is what I think do you have that makes you think this. Not trying to argue just what you to have the right knowledge to back up your points that you are saying. I’m hearing a lot of contradictory things on this thread and want to get them straight, but having a hard time believing yours considering the fact you still ski boots you are going on about being terribly dangerous.
Address me on the merit of my statements, I can't battle 2 homie's in one thread that won't speak without credential posturing.
I've made multiple posts trying to explain why it's dangerous because of the off balance positions it can point you in. You and Amer employee are using the word dangerous back to me, as an attack vector "gotcha" moment, instead of addressing my underlying points. If you are genuinely worried about your own stance and balance, you have to seek that out IRL.
If you were a oblivious normie with no concern, and I saw you had varus alignement, long radius ski, and you wanted more ability to turn... I'd be like ya sure go ahead AR/prime should be fun. If you were a good friend I wouldn't risk it because deep in the flex of the abducted boots there is a lot torque happening and it's a bad match for modern side cut skis + every other point I've made in this thread.
I owned the 2 pairs of prime before I understood how the last differentiated and it's impact on skiing mechanics. The only reason I've reached a deeper understanding of all this is because I've skied almost every boot.
I bought the AR because I love armada and I needed to try it no matter what. I wanted to see how the hybrid cuff setup felt (its good). I really like the snow feel of the desmopan tpu that atomic/armada use too.
I buy basically every single new boot to ski. Love to ski and test/modify boots for balance and feel. new 2026 tecnica mach1 LV on the way.
**This post was edited on Jan 15th 2025 at 1:08:27am
scratchskier321The cuff aligned outwards does not create knee-in position, it just creates torque between the cuff and clog that transmits to the ski. It adds inside edge grip and earlier engagement of the edge, it feels roughly similar to a outward canted boot. You apply force with shin into the cuff, which transmits to the clog, and when cuff if set like 3* out from the clog that creates and inwards torque that translates to the ski...
you should think of the abducted last as creating "knee CoM tracking inwards of second toe (under edged, in canting alignment terms) and then a very direct medial response from the boot in the middle of the turn because when you pronate into a last that is titled outwards the medial wall is right there on navicular"...
...you need to be careful to not over cook it as you flex deeper into the shell, it adds turn input to the ski."
The torque between the cuff and clog creates inside edge pressure similar to an outward canted boot... (insert mind-blown emoji here).
It's the torque! Now I get it.
This might help for an upright skier, but if you really drive the boot you're at risk of looping out the downhill ski into the backseat etc. Furthermore, this kind of design must impair the edging of the uphill ski, which negatively impacts technique because it is even harder to create edge angle with the uphill leg.
So what about Fischer's abduction from the midfoot? Are they just shifting the whole foot out, or are they twisting the heel in and toe out?
What boots on the market right now besides the k2 flex versions of the drop kick and classic have straight lasts and straight flexes? And while we're at it, which of those boots are don't he stiffer side of 130?
**This post was edited on Jan 15th 2025 at 11:40:37am
dubageThe torque between the cuff and clog creates inside edge pressure similar to an outward canted boot... (insert mind-blown emoji here).
It's the torque! Now I get it.
This might help for an upright skier, but if you really drive the boot you're at risk of looping out the downhill ski into the backseat etc. Furthermore, this kind of design must impair the edging of the uphill ski, which negatively impacts technique because it is even harder to create edge angle with the uphill leg.
So what about Fischer's abduction from the midfoot? Are they just shifting the whole foot out, or are they twisting the heel in and toe out?
What boots on the market right now besides the k2 flex versions of the drop kick and classic have straight lasts and straight flexes? And while we're at it, which of those boots are don't he stiffer side of 130?
**This post was edited on Jan 15th 2025 at 11:40:37am
Correct, that's right. The fischer is the same style last just way more dramatic, and you feel it like 3x more than AR/prime. (I haven't skied a newer fischer, just the black shell with red text RC4 curve)
Tough to identify a 2 piece with straight hinges because it's so essential to the design of a 2 piece, but the Veloce skis fairly straight to me the volume is just a little large.
But for 3 piece yes, dalbello cabrio, roxa, 102 FT shell etc .... I've messing around with the cabrio alot because it sucked out the box, but i've gotten it go well. Here is what you need: the B flex tongue because the A is too stiff, you need the aftermarket 12mm DH intuition because the stock wrap liner is total shit. And then you need the bloccoflex spine flex stopper in the rear that comes in the cabrio free box. A lot of money, but I like it more than roxa. If you are like 6-4 and like 27.5 roxa makes more sense because the cuff is tall.
+ you can't just buy the cabrio free version because that cuff angle keeps jamming my knee forward in the flex when the powerstrap is attached. I haven't sorted out how to fix it but ya, the cuff on the free version blows unless you ski like very knee forward. and the free version A flex dual durometer tongue on the free is total dogshit and just folds over, cant even believe they made it.
**This post was edited on Jan 15th 2025 at 2:57:21pm
**This post was edited on Jan 15th 2025 at 2:58:35pm
I really like dalbello but they're products feel like they're all on accident. They feel like nobody skied the product before they finalized the design. But i like the lasts because they are straight. so is just takes tons of mods to get it right. I just wait till they go on sale for like $300-350 and use them for parts. That boot i described above came from 3 different shells pairs. But you can do it from 1 if you have the patience to speak with dalbello CS through authorized shop. You could by the il moro or 120 for the B flex tongue, and then order the blocco flex inserts from dalbello. But last time i asked the guy in email he didn't even recognize the parts, so good luck. (blocco parts come inside in free version only, not alpine)
talk about dangerous, if you ski the cabrio alpine version out the box as is, its over the handlebars sensation the whole time. You to insert the bloccoflex thingy, its so important.
ChucktheweaselI'm confused... why does Scratch own so many pairs of different boots?
I think he needs a new boot fitter...
passion of mine, I design non-ski products in real life so I just enjoy testing and design in general. I have like 10 different boots I can ski great, but I'm always after that like extra 5% of control and feel.
onenerdykidSince I’ve never been here to simply score points for my team, my apologies for unintentionally misquoting you. Be that as it may, the rest of my argument still stands, plus you have yet to address how this geometry is dangerous. You definitely keep dodging that point, every single time. And since you know my actual name, you are getting very close to committing an ad hominem fallacy yourself with how you label me in an attempt to disparage me.
Let’s also stop with the straight-line drawing nonsense – it’s wrong from the beginning since there are not straight lines anywhere on the last. Your depiction is not accurate and does not take into account any of the curvatures & shapes the shell has. It is a misrepresentation from the very beginning.
This is what you have: a claim, which barely amounts to a hypothesis. You have no data to support your hypothesis. It is not up to me to disprove your hypothesis – this is not how scientific experimentation works. The burden of proof is on you to support your claims with data. It is not on me to refute your empty hypothesis.
Our last geometry is the result of producing ski boots for over 40 years (our head of R&D started at Koflach in 1983) and the thousands & thousands of hours of testing with average skiers, expert skiers, professional instructors, and professional athletes that continues to this very day, on modern & current skis. The recipe that we have is a result of all of this testing and what skiers prefer using. Meanwhile, you are literally drawing straight lines that have no basis in reality while sitting at keyboard. You can rely on Chat GPT all you want, your claims are nothing more than that – just empty claims with no data to support them.
I appreciate you taking the time to engage with us on this level. Not many people in your position would do it.
Carl_the_LlamaJust got my hands on a pair, have yet to ski them but can try and answer any questions and I'll definitely update when I do get them on snow.
Unfortunate that this thread is such a dumpster fire rn, boot looks and feels awesome in my opinion, really excited to get them on snow.
its awesome in every way besides the last, but only those us really inclined to tell the difference care. enjoy the boot fam, its good.
onenerdykidDon't tell that to our World Cup speed athletes who get their boots abducted ;)
Sorry to bring it back to this, but from the perspective of those World Cup athletes, how much are they abducting and why? Do they manipulate cuff flex direction at all? I understand if the modest abduction in high performance boots for the gen pop doesn't matter much, but if the World Cup athletes and their teams have some preferences then their perspective on these alignment designs is something I want to account for.
dubageSorry to bring it back to this, but from the perspective of those World Cup athletes, how much are they abducting and why? Do they manipulate cuff flex direction at all? I understand if the modest abduction in high performance boots for the gen pop doesn't matter much, but if the World Cup athletes and their teams have some preferences then their perspective on these alignment designs is something I want to account for.
Thanks for sticking with me here.
I'm gonna alleyoop this to the boot thread. I'm out. AR one's are sick.
dubageSorry to bring it back to this, but from the perspective of those World Cup athletes, how much are they abducting and why? Do they manipulate cuff flex direction at all? I understand if the modest abduction in high performance boots for the gen pop doesn't matter much, but if the World Cup athletes and their teams have some preferences then their perspective on these alignment designs is something I want to account for.
Thanks for sticking with me here.
inb4 he explains that it is preference, instead of the mechanics why.
scratchskier321I've made multiple posts trying to explain why it's dangerous because of the off balance positions it can point you in. You and Amer employee are using the word dangerous back to me, as an attack vector "gotcha" moment, instead of addressing my underlying points. If you are genuinely worried about your own stance and balance, you have to seek that out IRL.
If you were a oblivious normie with no concern, and I saw you had varus alignement, long radius ski, and you wanted more ability to turn... I'd be like ya sure go ahead AR/prime should be fun. If you were a good friend I wouldn't risk it because deep in the flex of the abducted boots there is a lot torque happening and it's a bad match for modern side cut skis + every other point I've made in this thread.
lol you muppet you haven’t proved shit. This is just a claim. you suck at science.
Such a damn shame to see this thread turn into a bunch of internet scrollers thinking that they know way more than the boot line developers from Atomic, K2, and the new Armada developer.
Cutting to the chase, I skied the AR One 130 MV in a 27.5 at an industry demo earlier this week. Prior to trying it on, I did think that the boot was held together with miscellaneous hardware from the Atomic parts bin, but seeing it in person and actually feeling the tangible product was definitely different. When I slid my foot inside the boot, I noticed that every issue that I had in any other cabriolet shell was virtually nonexistent. I skied it out of the box as well with no custom footbed to take myself out of my own shoes and evaluate the boot as if I was a customer who had just bought the boot sight unseen. I did land flat on a couple side hits in the short period I skied the boot and the rubber floorboard makes a huge difference in terms of performance. The slingshot buckle loves to suck you in further into the heel pocket, which is a weird sensation to get used to, but god damnit it does feel satisfying. The toe box did remind me more of a Hawx Prime or an S/Pro Supra in terms of the shape of it on the shell, however I do firmly believe it is a positive as it can help fulfill the needs of those with a square-ish foot a bit easier. I daily drive the current 24/25 Dalbello Veloce 120 MV in a 27.5 for reference and noticed that the heel cup between the two shells are virtually the same feel inside of the boot, which I personally like for my foot as it can handle that kind of compression. The flex was quite playful and the thicker tongue does help give it a more responsive rebound especially if you like to land with more weight on the shins. Last but not least, the details on the liner, plastic, and the hardware on the 110 and 130 make perfect sense in terms of being able to work on it in general without having to grind any plastic or take out anything involving the insulation. Usually I get super skeptical about a brand new boot that launches on the market out of nowhere, but I’m feeling pretty bullish about the boot after seeing it in person, skiing it, and feeling around the inside of the lower cuff to evaluate potential stretch areas.
All in all, kudos to @onenerdykid and @Oldirtybransford for shaking up the boot market with this one. I’m stoked to see how well it does in shops and I know my coworkers and I are dying to dissect one of these shells apart to further understand the moving parts.
P.S. I listened to the Gear:30 episode the morning after trying out the new AR One’s and it really did answer the questions I did have and it did give me a further understanding as to why you guys did what you did in terms of developing the whole boot line.
Brule.Such a damn shame to see this thread turn into a bunch of internet scrollers thinking that they know way more than the boot line developers from Atomic, K2, and the new Armada developer.
Cutting to the chase, I skied the AR One 130 MV in a 27.5 at an industry demo earlier this week. Prior to trying it on, I did think that the boot was held together with miscellaneous hardware from the Atomic parts bin, but seeing it in person and actually feeling the tangible product was definitely different. When I slid my foot inside the boot, I noticed that every issue that I had in any other cabriolet shell was virtually nonexistent. I skied it out of the box as well with no custom footbed to take myself out of my own shoes and evaluate the boot as if I was a customer who had just bought the boot sight unseen. I did land flat on a couple side hits in the short period I skied the boot and the rubber floorboard makes a huge difference in terms of performance. The slingshot buckle loves to suck you in further into the heel pocket, which is a weird sensation to get used to, but god damnit it does feel satisfying. The toe box did remind me more of a Hawx Prime or an S/Pro Supra in terms of the shape of it on the shell, however I do firmly believe it is a positive as it can help fulfill the needs of those with a square-ish foot a bit easier. I daily drive the current 24/25 Dalbello Veloce 120 MV in a 27.5 for reference and noticed that the heel cup between the two shells are virtually the same feel inside of the boot, which I personally like for my foot as it can handle that kind of compression. The flex was quite playful and the thicker tongue does help give it a more responsive rebound especially if you like to land with more weight on the shins. Last but not least, the details on the liner, plastic, and the hardware on the 110 and 130 make perfect sense in terms of being able to work on it in general without having to grind any plastic or take out anything involving the insulation. Usually I get super skeptical about a brand new boot that launches on the market out of nowhere, but I’m feeling pretty bullish about the boot after seeing it in person, skiing it, and feeling around the inside of the lower cuff to evaluate potential stretch areas.
All in all, kudos to @onenerdykid and @Oldirtybransford for shaking up the boot market with this one. I’m stoked to see how well it does in shops and I know my coworkers and I are dying to dissect one of these shells apart to further understand the moving parts.
P.S. I listened to the Gear:30 episode the morning after trying out the new AR One’s and it really did answer the questions I did have and it did give me a further understanding as to why you guys did what you did in terms of developing the whole boot line.
My man! Thanks for giving the boots a go, stoked you enjoyed them! And many thanks for tuning into the podcast and the kind words. Developing a new boot ground up was a dream come true for me, and to see it on the hill (and now on the FWT podium!!) and the stoke surrounding it makes all those long days and nights totally worth it. At the end of the day, its a just a ski boot guys, and it wont fit everybody nor will everybody be totally hyped on it...and that's okay. We can't make a boot fit everyone, nor would a boot that fits everyone be all that good. But for the people that this boot works for, from the average ripper to the hometown hero, i think those folks are gunna be so pumped on the fit and function, and probably get all the whoops from the chairlift.
they didn't do it intentionally, nor with the intention for it to be dangerous. people are just trying to speak louder than me to invalidate my logic.
They did it out of habit and industry norm. You guys read the posts... onenerdy said the abducted last is what other brands do too, 40 yrs of dev, and that athletes like it. That is habit/norm.
everyone gets uncomfortable and flippant when information is being challenged by a non-authority figure. people here are talking about who to "believe" instead of the topic at hand. I'm not asking you to believe me, I already gave you my reasoning, debate that.
i feel bad because the armada boot is sick, i'm only critiquing the last angle... but when onenerdy insinuated my opinion didn't matter because he said so, I had to stick up for myself.
what i'm describing derives from what every bootfitter learns regarding canting soles and alignment... how the knee CoM traces over the foot, this is essentially the core basis of my point. depending on how the last is angled, it changes how your knee CoM traces over the foot. which influences everything you experience skiing.
I re-listened to the armada blister and onenerdy blister pods after this... in the onenerdy blister panel at 1:05:00 he says he is very bow legged. I've explained multiple times how the abducted last makes sense specifically for the varus aligned. So it makes sense he's never experienced it or was aware of the affect because he can't experience it IRL because of his body shape.
