It looks like you are using an ad blocker. That's okay. Who doesn't? But without advertising revenue, we can't keep making this site awesome. Click the link below for instructions on disabling adblock.
Welcome to the Newschoolers forums! You may read the forums as a guest, however you must be a registered member to post.
Register to become a member today!
Been riding liberty helix 84s for two years now and im genuinely losing my mind. They are about as buttery as rocks and ever since i got them i cant butter the same. Ive decided that im not probably not going to be a world cup pipe skier so Idc too much about getting stiff skis anymore. Right now im thinking about getting some on3ps but I feel like there are definitely some other options out there with more flex, drop any suggestions you have (besides line blends). Also are longer skis better for buttering?
Longer skis are 100% better for buttering, that's not a myth it's just how leverage works lol. If you're thinking of getting any ski, sizing up will make it easier to get them to flex.
I've only really ridden allplays for the past 3 years in the park and they're buttery as hell and high quality. I am looking for some similar skis that are fatter underfoot though, surface upper and icelantic nomad 105s are on my radar currently so if anyone in this thread has info on them I'd love to hear it. Slowbro has icelantics rn and swears by them so I'm leaning towards those
i’ve had wets and mango 90’s, and the wets are softer by far but i feel like the on3p’s are still just as buttery once you find the balance point, easier imo to do things like ride on the noses for longer on the mango’s
yungSBBeen riding liberty helix 84s for two years now and im genuinely losing my mind. They are about as buttery as rocks and ever since i got them i cant butter the same. Ive decided that im not probably not going to be a world cup pipe skier so Idc too much about getting stiff skis anymore. Right now im thinking about getting some on3ps but I feel like there are definitely some other options out there with more flex, drop any suggestions you have (besides line blends). Also are longer skis better for buttering?
I love my mango 100s they hold up hitting pro line at bopper and I can still hit some nasty lip butter 2s
yungSBBeen riding liberty helix 84s for two years now and im genuinely losing my mind. They are about as buttery as rocks and ever since i got them i cant butter the same. Ive decided that im not probably not going to be a world cup pipe skier so Idc too much about getting stiff skis anymore. Right now im thinking about getting some on3ps but I feel like there are definitely some other options out there with more flex, drop any suggestions you have (besides line blends). Also are longer skis better for buttering?
IMO pretty much all park skis will have a good amount of flex to them, the most important factor is understanding where and how the ski flexes, so I wouldn’t personally recommend getting a full noodle, because you lose a lot for really not much to gain, agree with some other people, size up your length and go to a ski shop and see the flex patterns or wait for demo days.
Farmville420Longer skis are 100% better for buttering, that's not a myth it's just how leverage works lol. If you're thinking of getting any ski, sizing up will make it easier to get them to flex.
I've only really ridden allplays for the past 3 years in the park and they're buttery as hell and high quality. I am looking for some similar skis that are fatter underfoot though, surface upper and icelantic nomad 105s are on my radar currently so if anyone in this thread has info on them I'd love to hear it. Slowbro has icelantics rn and swears by them so I'm leaning towards those
I've been riding the Allplay as well. Really nice ski. I've been pretty interested in the Frankenski as an eventual replacement.
What universe are you from that defies the laws of physics? Longer skis would make it harder to apply force to the tip/tail assuming you’re center mounted. It’s impressive how confident you are though.
Farmville420Longer skis are 100% better for buttering, that's not a myth it's just how leverage works lol. If you're thinking of getting any ski, sizing up will make it easier to get them to flex.
I've only really ridden allplays for the past 3 years in the park and they're buttery as hell and high quality. I am looking for some similar skis that are fatter underfoot though, surface upper and icelantic nomad 105s are on my radar currently so if anyone in this thread has info on them I'd love to hear it. Slowbro has icelantics rn and swears by them so I'm leaning towards those
Jimmer369What universe are you from that defies the laws of physics? Longer skis would make it harder to apply force to the tip/tail assuming you’re center mounted. It’s impressive how confident you are though.
Look up bending moments, if it's too complicated for you I can probably find a super simple way to demonstrate them. I don't actually know how it's possible for you to be both scientifically and intuitivitally wrong but props I guess
Farmville420Longer skis are 100% better for buttering, that's not a myth it's just how leverage works lol. If you're thinking of getting any ski, sizing up will make it easier to get them to flex.
I've only really ridden allplays for the past 3 years in the park and they're buttery as hell and high quality. I am looking for some similar skis that are fatter underfoot though, surface upper and icelantic nomad 105s are on my radar currently so if anyone in this thread has info on them I'd love to hear it. Slowbro has icelantics rn and swears by them so I'm leaning towards those
It works the other way around. the longer the ski, the longer the lever arm the piste is working on you, meaning it’s providing more resistance against you leaning your body forwards or backwards
it’s like a tower with a large base vs. one with a smaller base. the smaller base one will tip over more easily. shorter skis butter more easily
**This post was edited on Jan 1st 2025 at 4:44:44pm
Stop trying to explain middle school physics to teenagers on Newschoolers, I already tried. They didn’t understand it.
FruitBootProIt works the other way around. the longer the ski, the longer the lever arm the piste is working on you, meaning it’s providing more resistance against you leaning your body forwards or backwards
it’s like a tower with a large base vs. one with a smaller base. the smaller base one will tip over more easily. shorter skis butter more easily
**This post was edited on Jan 1st 2025 at 4:44:44pm
FruitBootProIt works the other way around. the longer the ski, the longer the lever arm the piste is working on you, meaning it’s providing more resistance against you leaning your body forwards or backwards
it’s like a tower with a large base vs. one with a smaller base. the smaller base one will tip over more easily. shorter skis butter more easily
**This post was edited on Jan 1st 2025 at 4:44:44pm
I'm talking about flexing a ski dog, literally just the mechanics of how materials work, longer segments will have greater bending moments.
You're not wrong but it's not what I was talking about at all lol, when OP said "what's the flexiest ski" the answer is "whatever the most buttery ski on the market is, in the longest length that they manufacture"
Farmville420I'm talking about flexing a ski dog, literally just the mechanics of how materials work, longer segments will have greater bending moments.
You're not wrong but it's not what I was talking about at all lol, when OP said "what's the flexiest ski" the answer is "whatever the most buttery ski on the market is, in the longest length that they manufacture"
Farmville420I'm talking about flexing a ski dog, literally just the mechanics of how materials work, longer segments will have greater bending moments.
You're not wrong but it's not what I was talking about at all lol, when OP said "what's the flexiest ski" the answer is "whatever the most buttery ski on the market is, in the longest length that they manufacture"
Jimmer369Holy shit you might actually be retarded 😳
Farmville420I'm talking about flexing a ski dog, literally just the mechanics of how materials work, longer segments will have greater bending moments.
You're not wrong but it's not what I was talking about at all lol, when OP said "what's the flexiest ski" the answer is "whatever the most buttery ski on the market is, in the longest length that they manufacture"
Without picking sides in this one, you're mostly there on the engineering front, but we can get even pickier here.
The flex mostly decides how easy it is to get into a butter. IMO it's the biggest variable to a ski buttering well.
The length decides how hard you can butter before looping out , and moves the sweet spot and contact patch for buttering closer or further away from you. (Flex also changes this)
In the same way your ski length bending moment works in your favor for buttering, it works against you in controlling the butter.
If you get a short ski, theoretically you can control the butter a little easier because your boot is closer to the contact patch on snow, but you're going to loop out easier.
With a long ski, you're losing mechanical advantage by moving the contact patch further away, but it'll take more force to loop out.
Generally speaking, yes, longer ski is easier to butter. Mostly because you can put more weight into the butter before it loops out, so there's a broader sweet spot. But it's a bit more complicated than that. Flex and length work together in a ski that butters well.
Ex: I like the way my 189 Wide Plusses butter more than my 191 Jeff 102s. The jeffs are longer, but the wides are easier to get into and stay in the sweet spot.
Farmville420I'm talking about flexing a ski dog, literally just the mechanics of how materials work, longer segments will have greater bending moments.
You're not wrong but it's not what I was talking about at all lol, when OP said "what's the flexiest ski" the answer is "whatever the most buttery ski on the market is, in the longest length that they manufacture"
Greater bending moment means that something is harder to flex, not easier. a longer ski with a greater bending moment is less flexy than its shorter versions. 171 wets should be the flexiest ski on the market, but that’s too short for a lot of people.
FruitBootProGreater bending moment means that something is harder to flex, not easier. a longer ski with a greater bending moment is less flexy than its shorter versions. 171 wets should be the flexiest ski on the market, but that’s too short for a lot of people.
The sign doesn't matter. What matters is the magnitude, positive and negative moments just determine the direction, see below (sorry my handwriting is ass)
Realizing now the bending moment diagrams would be positive in this scenario but the drawing is still accurate
**This post was edited on Jan 2nd 2025 at 4:45:00pm
Farmville420The sign doesn't matter. What matters is the magnitude, positive and negative moments just determine the direction, see below (sorry my handwriting is ass)
Realizing now the bending moment diagrams would be positive in this scenario but the drawing is still accurate
**This post was edited on Jan 2nd 2025 at 4:45:00pm
Someone award this guy the Nobel prize for breaking the laws of physics. Guys next invention is going to be the perpetual motion machine.
Farmville420The sign doesn't matter. What matters is the magnitude, positive and negative moments just determine the direction, see below (sorry my handwriting is ass)
Realizing now the bending moment diagrams would be positive in this scenario but the drawing is still accurate
**This post was edited on Jan 2nd 2025 at 4:45:00pm
Farmville420The sign doesn't matter. What matters is the magnitude, positive and negative moments just determine the direction, see below (sorry my handwriting is ass)
Realizing now the bending moment diagrams would be positive in this scenario but the drawing is still accurate
**This post was edited on Jan 2nd 2025 at 4:45:00pm
There is no bending moment at A because the point of contact is not attached to the snow.
Bending moment equilibrium M is the bending couple exerted by the skier onto the ski through the bindings
Fground is the normal force of the ground on the tip
L is the distance from boot center to point of contact
M + L*Fground = 0 M = -L*Fground
(Fg_ski is negligible compared to other forces and/or held equal)
Larger L corresponds to larger M
therefore all else held equal, a longer ski requires a greater moment (pressure) from the rider to reach the same amount of deflection.
Bending moment is highest at boot center and tapers to 0 at the point of contact, because the normal force of the ground counters that to keep the ski in equilibrium.
**This post was edited on Jan 2nd 2025 at 11:44:19pm
Correction: the above is an approximation and the bending moment rotates about the position of the toe lug and not the boot center. Still, increasing the ski length still corresponds with increasing the forces the skier needs to exert, all else held equal
**This post was edited on Jan 3rd 2025 at 12:17:19am
FruitBootProThere is no bending moment at A because the point of contact is not attached to the snow.
Bending moment equilibrium M is the bending couple exerted by the skier onto the ski through the bindings
Fground is the normal force of the ground on the tip
L is the distance from boot center to point of contact
M + L*Fground = 0 M = -L*Fground
(Fg_ski is negligible compared to other forces and/or held equal)
Larger L corresponds to larger M
therefore all else held equal, a longer ski requires a greater moment (pressure) from the rider to reach the same amount of deflection.
Bending moment is highest at boot center and tapers to 0 at the point of contact, because the normal force of the ground counters that to keep the ski in equilibrium.
**This post was edited on Jan 2nd 2025 at 11:44:19pm
See I was thinking about this earlier but I disagree with how you've set it up and I'll explain a few of the fallacies there.
The normal force and the force of gravity + the force of the skier leaning into the butter would cancel out, so if you are in a butter, there is no moment about "M" at all, it's 0.
You have to remember Fground is also at the location that you are applying a load in order to stay in the butter, so when you write out the equation correctly you get M = L*Fground - L*Fbutter. Since length would be equal it would be M = L * (Ground - Butter), and because during a butter the system is technically in equilibrium, Fground and Fbutter are equal, and thus cancel each other out. You wind up getting M = L*0... which is 0. That's why I set up the tip of the ski during the butter as a fixed end, because it just makes more sense in the context of what is actually happening.
We know that's not true, we see skis bend when people butter, but your model suggests that there is literally no moment at all, and even then, when you take a moment about A in your diagram, and we simplify the sum of Fheel, Fski, and Ftoe into one resultant force, we will get a positive force in the clockwise direction. Which means that even if the force stays the same, the moment will increase proportionally with regards to length...
Now with regards to requiring a greater force to actually initiate a butter, sure, that is objectively true, but if you're good enough to move your weight into a butter on 183s, you're good enough to do it on 191s, and the 191s will bend a hell of a lot more lol
