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eheathits a negotiation tactic right? seems like trump 101, threaten something dumb so that everyone bows to your demands?
Tariffs used to work before a global economy. It's trump trying to be big and scary. Sort of an outdated tactic.
It definitely used to work and was to protect american manufacturing but now we buy everything from China and almost nothing is made here. The economy is global now and it will probably hurt the US more so than China.
VTshredder69Tariffs used to work before a global economy. It's trump trying to be big and scary. Sort of an outdated tactic.
It definitely used to work and was to protect american manufacturing but now we buy everything from China and almost nothing is made here. The economy is global now and it will probably hurt the US more so than China.
VTshredder69Tariffs used to work before a global economy. It's trump trying to be big and scary. Sort of an outdated tactic.
It definitely used to work and was to protect american manufacturing but now we buy everything from China and almost nothing is made here. The economy is global now and it will probably hurt the US more so than China.
So yea you're basically spot on.
Seems like it will be a cold day in Hell before the conservative congress votes for tariffs. So honestly I don’t think anyone knows what will happen next on that front. Maybe he will appoint Hulk Hogan as the next fed chair and we can start body slamming these fuckin interest rates brother!!!
CaseySeems like it will be a cold day in Hell before the conservative congress votes for tariffs. So honestly I don’t think anyone knows what will happen next on that front. Maybe he will appoint Hulk Hogan as the next fed chair and we can start body slamming these fuckin interest rates brother!!!
Its interesting because the Fed has cut interest rates by 75 basis points within the last 2 months. Mortgage interest rates should follow suit but appear to continue to rise. Until housing becomes more available i think mortgage rates will remain the same through 2024. Who knows when they'll drop in 2025. It's insane because there are so many apartment complexes being built and they're all filling up quickly.
CaseySeems like it will be a cold day in Hell before the conservative congress votes for tariffs. So honestly I don’t think anyone knows what will happen next on that front. Maybe he will appoint Hulk Hogan as the next fed chair and we can start body slamming these fuckin interest rates brother!!!
Except there's a blueprint for how it was done in his first term.
He'll use a basis of "threats to national security" under section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act.
No Republican pushed back then, I don't see this being different if he targets China, Mexico, or certain industries.
The Executive Branch has received more and more power to levy tariffs since it was initially given to Congress.
For instance:
Section 301(b) of the Trade Act of 1974 gives the president broad authority to take all appropriate action, including retaliatory tariffs, to obtain the removal of any act, policy, or practice of a foreign government that is unjustified, unreasonable, or discriminatory, and that burdens or restricts U.S. commerce.
The IEEPA (International Emergency Powers Act) provides broad presidential authority to deal with international economic emergencies which Trump threatened to use against Mexico in his first presidency.
There are older authorities as well that would likely result in legal battles but he certainly has the means to execute these tariffs without Congressional oversight.
**This post was edited on Nov 10th 2024 at 7:00:03am
GSRELI5 what's bad about incentivizing an American industrial base?
Nothing. It's just not economically smart to do so because we no longer have the infrastructure or any competitive advantage.
But here's a very simplified scenario.
You're a man who has a family and a large household with lots of land (America).
You grew up building things with your hands for your household and have all the tools and equipment needed (manufacturing-based economy).
You discovered you could make more money directing people on what to build and where on your farm (transition to a service-based economy).
You hired your young neighbors to build these things but still rely on your children for certain tasks(globalization).
You grow old and many of your grandchildren don't learn how to build things with their hand while your neighbors become REALLY efficient at it and do it cheaply as well (specialization).
Some of your grandchildren attempt to, but are not as efficient or cheap as your neighbors. Unfortunately, they are put out of business and have to sell the equipment and tools (loss of manufacturing base and subsequent knowledge/skills).
More time passes, and you have great grandchildren. These great grandchildren suddenly want to begin to build things again but at a higher cost. The problem is, they do not have the knowledge, skills, or equipment to do so. They of course could invest in doing so, but would you pay them for work that may not be superior nor cheap?
That's what reinvesting in the American industrial base would be like.
You've lost all the skill and knowledge and reinvesting in it does not guarantee superiority or even if anyone buys the products. All you do know is that it's likely going to be more expensive.
Obviously you have some unique situations like the BMW factory in SC, the TMSC factories being built, etc. but those are much more specialized (and in the case of TMSC, a case of national security).
.MASSHOLE.Nothing. It's just not economically smart to do so because we no longer have the infrastructure or any competitive advantage.
But here's a very simplified scenario.
You're a man who has a family and a large household with lots of land (America).
You grew up building things with your hands for your household and have all the tools and equipment needed (manufacturing-based economy).
You discovered you could make more money directing people on what to build and where on your farm (transition to a service-based economy).
You hired your young neighbors to build these things but still rely on your children for certain tasks(globalization).
You grow old and many of your grandchildren don't learn how to build things with their hand while your neighbors become REALLY efficient at it and do it cheaply as well (specialization).
Some of your grandchildren attempt to, but are not as efficient or cheap as your neighbors. Unfortunately, they are put out of business and have to sell the equipment and tools (loss of manufacturing base and subsequent knowledge/skills).
More time passes, and you have great grandchildren. These great grandchildren suddenly want to begin to build things again but at a higher cost. The problem is, they do not have the knowledge, skills, or equipment to do so. They of course could invest in doing so, but would you pay them for work that may not be superior nor cheap?
That's what reinvesting in the American industrial base would be like.
You've lost all the skill and knowledge and reinvesting in it does not guarantee superiority or even if anyone buys the products. All you do know is that it's likely going to be more expensive.
Obviously you have some unique situations like the BMW factory in SC, the TMSC factories being built, etc. but those are much more specialized (and in the case of TMSC, a case of national security).
That doesn't make sense to me. If you want to make a factory to make thingamajigs for example, it's not like the past where it was basically trial and error on what worked. Nowadays you can hire consultants for anything to give you the groundwork. The knowledge base is still there and easy to access.
What about pride in manufacturing. I would rather pay for a part machined in the US than in China because I know the quality control will be better. Thats what US products have always been marketed as. It doesn't make sense to completely dump that identity because "oh we just don't have the knowledge to do these things anymore".
.MASSHOLE.Except there's a blueprint for how it was done in his first term.
He'll use a basis of "threats to national security" under section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act.
No Republican pushed back then, I don't see this being different if he targets China, Mexico, or certain industries.
The Executive Branch has received more and more power to levy tariffs since it was initially given to Congress.
For instance:
Section 301(b) of the Trade Act of 1974 gives the president broad authority to take all appropriate action, including retaliatory tariffs, to obtain the removal of any act, policy, or practice of a foreign government that is unjustified, unreasonable, or discriminatory, and that burdens or restricts U.S. commerce.
The IEEPA (International Emergency Powers Act) provides broad presidential authority to deal with international economic emergencies which Trump threatened to use against Mexico in his first presidency.
There are older authorities as well that would likely result in legal battles but he certainly has the means to execute these tariffs without Congressional oversight.
**This post was edited on Nov 10th 2024 at 7:00:03am
I guess time will tell, honestly I just chalk up the tariffs thing in the same basket as repealing Obama care or building a wall and making Mexico pay for it he’s just bullshitting he’s not actually going to do a damn thing
CaseyI guess time will tell, honestly I just chalk up the tariffs thing in the same basket as repealing Obama care or building a wall and making Mexico pay for it he’s just bullshitting he’s not actually going to do a damn thing
If he is not going to do anything, why do you hate him so much?
GSRThat doesn't make sense to me. If you want to make a factory to make thingamajigs for example, it's not like the past where it was basically trial and error on what worked. Nowadays you can hire consultants for anything to give you the groundwork. The knowledge base is still there and easy to access.
What about pride in manufacturing. I would rather pay for a part machined in the US than in China because I know the quality control will be better. Thats what US products have always been marketed as. It doesn't make sense to completely dump that identity because "oh we just don't have the knowledge to do these things anymore".
As I said, very simplified.
You can make a factory, but can you make a factory that is "better" (meaning more efficient at producing better and/or cheaper goods) than international competition?
The answer right now is mostly no. The goods aren't always better and they're almost always more expensive.
Hell, if anything, we do lack of the knowledge base to make things. There was a reason TMSC didn't make factories in the US without significant investment - there wasn't a skilled enough workforce. Obviously that's a VERY unique situation and requires a very specialized skill set but it's pretty easy to see across other industries.
Sure, we could make a lot of mass-produced goods here (like parts) but again, we're not more efficient and we're not cheaper. Sure, we may be better compared to some international factories, but there are VERY good factories in the Far East.
Again, as an example of this, the biggest bike manufacturer in the world is located in Taiwan. You see some US-based manufacturers trying to to compete but almost all come at a premium. We just don't have the skill (read efficiency) or cost (read wage rate discrepancy) to compete with them.
I addressed the "pride" aspect in other posts. People talk the talk but don't walk the walk. They show what their priorities are with their wallet. Lots of people (I think like 80%) say they want MiUSA but they don't actually purchase it when it's available.
CaseyI guess time will tell, honestly I just chalk up the tariffs thing in the same basket as repealing Obama care or building a wall and making Mexico pay for it he’s just bullshitting he’s not actually going to do a damn thing
He did try with Obamacare, McCain just gave him a big middle finger.
I guarantee the GOP will try again.
He's going to have the full support of Congress, it's going to be a lot harder to stymie more of his divisive and potentially harmful policy ideas he has discussed.
.MASSHOLE.Except there's a blueprint for how it was done in his first term.
He'll use a basis of "threats to national security" under section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act.
No Republican pushed back then, I don't see this being different if he targets China, Mexico, or certain industries.
The Executive Branch has received more and more power to levy tariffs since it was initially given to Congress.
For instance:
Section 301(b) of the Trade Act of 1974 gives the president broad authority to take all appropriate action, including retaliatory tariffs, to obtain the removal of any act, policy, or practice of a foreign government that is unjustified, unreasonable, or discriminatory, and that burdens or restricts U.S. commerce.
The IEEPA (International Emergency Powers Act) provides broad presidential authority to deal with international economic emergencies which Trump threatened to use against Mexico in his first presidency.
There are older authorities as well that would likely result in legal battles but he certainly has the means to execute these tariffs without Congressional oversight.
**This post was edited on Nov 10th 2024 at 7:00:03am
EV
I think tariffs on EV's and tech chips is definitely beneficial since the world is in competition regarding AI development. Gotta give Biden credit for the chip act.
At the same time we need to stop relying on China for a majority of our goods. I think we learned that lesson when Covid hit. We are far too reliable on them.
GSRIf he is not going to do anything, why do you hate him so much?
I don’t hate Trump per se, I just hate what he stands for. I hate what it means for our country that theocratic fascism is taking hold. But at the end of the day he is only as powerful as his public support. In the words of George Carlin, “the public sucks, fuck hope.”
.MASSHOLE.He did try with Obamacare, McCain just gave him a big middle finger.
I guarantee the GOP will try again.
He's going to have the full support of Congress, it's going to be a lot harder to stymie more of his divisive and potentially harmful policy ideas he has discussed.
Right but if McCain hadn’t given him the thumbs down his administration would be on the hook for coming up with a sensible policy alternative, which let’s be honest that is not exactly their strong suit. It’s the same reason he tanked the immigration bill he is like a dog chasing a car he has not idea how to operate whilst governing he is just n his element as the opposition
I think tariffs on EV's and tech chips is definitely beneficial since the world is in competition regarding AI development. Gotta give Biden credit for the chip act.
At the same time we need to stop relying on China for a majority of our goods. I think we learned that lesson when Covid hit. We are far too reliable on them.
Biden left many of Trumps tariffs in place ?
I agree on EV, less so on chips.
Taiwan has a stranglehold on chips for the time being. We are building our own facilities but we've only got one that can compete and it's owned by TSMC anyway.
That said, I like the restrictions placed on chips being sold to China. That's A-OK to me.
He left some, yes, but as I said before, broadstroke tariffs are a bad idea. It's OK to have select tariffs (e.g. on select finished goods rather than inputs) but to have it on any import?
CaseyRight but if McCain hadn’t given him the thumbs down his administration would be on the hook for coming up with a sensible policy alternative, which let’s be honest that is not exactly their strong suit. It’s the same reason he tanked the immigration bill he is like a dog chasing a car he has not idea how to operate whilst governing he is just n his element as the opposition
Oh for sure, but that hasn't stopped any GOP candidate from saying they'll repeal Obamacare but have nothing of note in place.
The issue is there are few guardrails in place and we know that many of the GOP Congress members have hooked their cart to MAGA policies.
You're relying on the more "moderate" members like Susan Collins or Murkowski in the Senate or whomever is in the House to hold him in check.
I don't have a lot of faith in those members.
Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.
CaseyI don’t hate Trump per se, I just hate what he stands for. I hate what it means for our country that theocratic fascism is taking hold. But at the end of the day he is only as powerful as his public support. In the words of George Carlin, “the public sucks, fuck hope.”
I don’t think you are using those terms correctly. Can you list off specific examples of Trump trying to turn the US into a theocratic state? Or are you just frustrated because you can’t put into words why you don’t like the policies? Like I didn’t see people saying Bush was a theocratic fascist when arguably his actions more aligned to it (militarism) than Trump?
GSRI don’t think you are using those terms correctly. Can you list off specific examples of Trump trying to turn the US into a theocratic state? Or are you just frustrated because you can’t put into words why you don’t like the policies? Like I didn’t see people saying Bush was a theocratic fascist when arguably his actions more aligned to it (militarism) than Trump?
Trump is not a religious ideologue I’ll give you that, but he enjoys the support of white Christian nationalists because they share common cause in almost random coincidence that they both want to take down the same people that stand in the way of their objectives. If Trump had lost narrowly last week we would be in the middle of an all out civil war right now. I don’t want to ramble forever but here is a few examples since you asked:
Corrupting the Supreme Court with 3 Christian zealots for one specific purpose
weaponizing the justice department against his political enemies, he has repeatedly stated explicitly he will persecute shifty schiff and pelosi for being his political enemy when given the opportunity, republicans continually tried to walk back his definition of the “enemy within” attempting to say he was talking about illegal migrants and time and time again said no I will use the justice department to go after the people that tried to go after me (spoiler alert: Trump is objectively guilty of everything he is being accused of)
attempting a coup on January 6 2021
Mass deportations- I think he is probably too lazy to actually do it but he is on record claiming he wants to round up and deport 20 million people. Sit with that thought for a second and try to visualize the all out military invasion and total desecration of our 1st 2nd and 4th amendment that would be required to execute that effort. If you can’t follow the breadcrumbs to fascist theocracy from here then there is no point in any further discussion I find your line of questioning deliberately obtuse to begin with
CaseyTrump is not a religious ideologue I’ll give you that, but he enjoys the support of white Christian nationalists because they share common cause in almost random coincidence that they both want to take down the same people that stand in the way of their objectives. If Trump had lost narrowly last week we would be in the middle of an all out civil war right now. I don’t want to ramble forever but here is a few examples since you asked:
Corrupting the Supreme Court with 3 Christian zealots for one specific purpose
weaponizing the justice department against his political enemies, he has repeatedly stated explicitly he will persecute shifty schiff and pelosi for being his political enemy when given the opportunity, republicans continually tried to walk back his definition of the “enemy within” attempting to say he was talking about illegal migrants and time and time again said no I will use the justice department to go after the people that tried to go after me (spoiler alert: Trump is objectively guilty of everything he is being accused of)
attempting a coup on January 6 2021
Mass deportations- I think he is probably too lazy to actually do it but he is on record claiming he wants to round up and deport 20 million people. Sit with that thought for a second and try to visualize the all out military invasion and total desecration of our 1st 2nd and 4th amendment that would be required to execute that effort. If you can’t follow the breadcrumbs to fascist theocracy from here then there is no point in any further discussion I find your line of questioning deliberately obtuse to begin with
Can you post links to the examples you laid out? Preferably from politically unbiased sources?
Also, you didn't address what I said about George Bush, who was more damaging to your democracy.
**This post was edited on Nov 10th 2024 at 9:43:19pm
Taiwan has a stranglehold on chips for the time being. We are building our own facilities but we've only got one that can compete and it's owned by TSMC anyway.
That said, I like the restrictions placed on chips being sold to China. That's A-OK to me.
He left some, yes, but as I said before, broadstroke tariffs are a bad idea. It's OK to have select tariffs (e.g. on select finished goods rather than inputs) but to have it on any import?
That's a disaster
Covid convinced me that we need to start incentivizing American manufacturing. Supply chains got fucked up and those are very much relied on for what manufacturing/production we still do in the US. It became a huge pain in the ass sourcing things during covid, luckily things bounced back fairly fast.
TOAST.Covid convinced me that we need to start incentivizing American manufacturing. Supply chains got fucked up and those are very much relied on for what manufacturing/production we still do in the US. It became a huge pain in the ass sourcing things during covid, luckily things bounced back fairly fast.
My question for you then is are you bringing everything back or select parts?
Because if you want to bring everything (start-to-finish, raw inputs to finished goods), you'd end up having to compete on an international level and you'd lose. You'll never out-compete the low-cost manufacturers in other countries. And if you implement protectionist policies like what Trump wants with tariffs? You're going to just cause inflation.
If you want select parts of the process, (e.g., final construction) you're still at the mercy of international markets.
There's no way to avoid an interconnected global economy unless you completely close down your borders. The problem with that approach is it hurts the end consumer.
People complained about expensive eggs. Now imagine the response if that was for a whole host of other goods.
Trump already getting more done than Biden and Harris did in 4 years. Fake news wins again, by only talking about trump they got him elected once again. Thanks CNN and all you lib haters for being so obsessed with trump.
SSteezleTrump already getting more done than Biden and Harris did in 4 years. Fake news wins again, by only talking about trump they got him elected once again. Thanks CNN and all you lib haters for being so obsessed with trump.
They turned him into a martyr. Their own fault. Not the brightest people anyways
VTshredder69They turned him into a martyr. Their own fault. Not the brightest people anyways
not only that, but now the majority of the country knows how corrupt the media is. It couldn't be more clear. Unless you're like most NS lib's and are completely brain dead
SSteezleTrump already getting more done than Biden and Harris did in 4 years. Fake news wins again, by only talking about trump they got him elected once again. Thanks CNN and all you lib haters for being so obsessed with trump.
how can he "get more done" when he's not in office yet?
are you seriously vicotry lapping all of these thread again? you're the sorest winner dude, the "libs" are living rent free in your head, you cant go a day without going on NS to "remind the liberals" that trump won. kudos for being the biggest dumbass that has ever used this website, quite the achievement all things considered.
lol, eheath i love triggering you, it's too easy. you're so sensitive. You might not be able to find your tampons in the mens bathroom anymore though, sorry bro!!!
.MASSHOLE.My question for you then is are you bringing everything back or select parts?
Because if you want to bring everything (start-to-finish, raw inputs to finished goods), you'd end up having to compete on an international level and you'd lose. You'll never out-compete the low-cost manufacturers in other countries. And if you implement protectionist policies like what Trump wants with tariffs? You're going to just cause inflation.
If you want select parts of the process, (e.g., final construction) you're still at the mercy of international markets.
There's no way to avoid an interconnected global economy unless you completely close down your borders. The problem with that approach is it hurts the end consumer.
People complained about expensive eggs. Now imagine the response if that was for a whole host of other goods.
Select items and yes this would cause inflation. I think finding the right balance of global trade and self sufficiency is important and currently we rely too much on other countries.
For some things I don't think hurting the end consumer is necessarily a bad thing, but that is another topic of how wasteful we are.
SSteezlenot only that, but now the majority of the country knows how corrupt the media is. It couldn't be more clear. Unless you're like most NS lib's and are completely brain dead
I love how people hate the "mainstream media" when Fox is one of the most mainstream outlets.
Also wierd bait with the "getting it done" when not in office.
theabortionatorI love how people hate the "mainstream media" when Fox is one of the most mainstream outlets.
Also wierd bait with the "getting it done" when not in office.
weird he tried to goof on me for saying the government and taxes are here to help us, when his boy is now running the government and hes willingly going to pay any taxes trump imposes on him lol. he thinks he's this cleaver troll, hes actually just a huge dumbass.
TOAST.Select items and yes this would cause inflation. I think finding the right balance of global trade and self sufficiency is important and currently we rely too much on other countries.
For some things I don't think hurting the end consumer is necessarily a bad thing, but that is another topic of how wasteful we are.
I think bringing back/protecting highly-skilled, nationally-important, manufacturing should be the goal.
That includes things like microchips, select EV and solar goods, and other technological products.
The CHIPS Act should be used as the model (with obviously some changes) moving forward.
There's no reason to bring back low-margin, high-volume manufacturing IMO.
eheathweird he tried to goof on me for saying the government and taxes are here to help us, when his boy is now running the government and hes willingly going to pay any taxes trump imposes on him lol. he thinks he's this cleaver troll, hes actually just a huge dumbass.
Yeah, thats why I pointed out that whether he's teying to troll or being serious he's still a dumbass lol
theabortionatorI love how people hate the "mainstream media" when Fox is one of the most mainstream outlets.
Also wierd bait with the "getting it done" when not in office.
lol when did I say I like fox? all news outlets are corrupt, podcast are the future way of hearing politicians views, and too bad Kamala was too scared to go on joe rogan!
eheathweird he tried to goof on me for saying the government and taxes are here to help us, when his boy is now running the government and hes willingly going to pay any taxes trump imposes on him lol. he thinks he's this cleaver troll, hes actually just a huge dumbass.
Trumps taxes fund things that matter, not transgender surgeries for illegals in prison, housing for illegals, medical for illegals.
DEPORT DEPORT DEPORT.
Proud to be an american, if you like mexicans better, you should move there
SSteezleTrumps taxes fund things that matter, not transgender surgeries for illegals in prison, housing for illegals, medical for illegals.
DEPORT DEPORT DEPORT.
Proud to be an american, if you like mexicans better, you should move there
Yawn...
Regardless if we depprted every Mexican, Muslim, anyone else trump and racist/xenophobic americans don't like, legal and illegal, our health care would still be trash.
Unfortunately people are ignorant and will vote against their own best interests as long as a boogieman scapegoat is presented.
Healthcare is perfectly fine, actually no, its the best, the bestest of best. The only problem is that some small amount of people who aren't white exist.
Sure seems reasonable. Only clicked on thread to see what Q posted. I'm out
Regardless if we depprted every Mexican, Muslim, anyone else trump and racist/xenophobic americans don't like, legal and illegal, our health care would still be trash.
Unfortunately people are ignorant and will vote against their own best interests as long as a boogieman scapegoat is presented.
Healthcare is perfectly fine, actually no, its the best, the bestest of best. The only problem is that some small amount of people who aren't white exist.
Sure seems reasonable. Only clicked on thread to see what Q posted. I'm out
What did Biden/Harris do for our healthcare system that has you so obsessed over it. What's the solution? All I hear is you bitching about it.
eheathSo what was so wrong about my statement you took from skiiermans signature? do you AGREE with skiierman???? HES A LIB DUDE
**This post was edited on Nov 11th 2024 at 6:05:06pm
wow you're still caught up on that, you're so sensitive. Again, lacking testosterone mr. eheath. It's okay Trump won, but you can donate your money to all the causes you and the libs cared about. You can even house an immigrant if you actually want to feel better about yourself
hi_vis360How much time have you spent working around or talking to trump supporters? These are the people who are fixing your plumbing, pumping your septic tank, building elevator shafts, and plowing the roads. I’m not defending their politics or trump. But constantly demonizing them as bigoted hillbillies who have no understanding of complex topics like the economy or foreign policy is classist, and that is why the democrats lost the election.
I get that but, and i dont think that all trump suporters are hateful biggots but they are people who are either willing to trun a blind eye to the things i mentioned or unwilling to learn about them. it would be diferents if they just saw trump as the lesser of two evils and only viewed him as a means to avoid the pary they didnt like. but they are fucking obesessed with him, they treat him like some kind of god and thats was so fucked up.
and yeah i know that this isnt all republican voters but it is a big portion of them.
Its not classist i just have a problem with people who think sexual prdators should hold any politcal power. also rich people love trump
