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Is pipe really a form of skiing or is it more akin to gymnastics? I have the same thought about moguls, but moguls are actually a natural formation so on the spectrum it is closer to park. Curious what you people think.
Nah. Imo it's valid to compare aerial skiing to gymnastics since the actual skiing aspect of it is fairly minimal, but with pipe skiing you have to actually be a fairly competent skier to ski the pipe properly
Watch the 2022 Olympic pipe prelims it had a lot of Chinese skiers that were presumably former gymnasts. They could do crazy dubs (one of them even had the Blunck sw dub flair) but they couldn’t link together a whole run very well probably because their actual skiing ability is weak.
pipe skiers tend to be the strongest freestyle skiers overall IMO, just look at Candide, Tanner, and Nico Porteous. Very good at all aspects of freestyle
Idk. If you ever think pipe skiing is lame or not core, drop into a 22 and see how hard/scary it is to air out. Also even watching people, a lot of people can barely get to the coping if even. Then realizing how friggin high the pros are going it's wild.
Also pipe for snowboarding is about as core as it gets. Pipe was almost the start of terrain parks. A lot of mountains didn't have a jump and pretty much nowhere had rails, but they might have a hand dug pipe. Eventually that transitioned into better equipment to maintain pipes.
A lot of places made "snowboard parks" for the boarders to kind of keep them away from skiers. Unfortunately that meant a lot of mtns banned skiers in the pipes and parks early on. But there were mountains that didn't and plenty of skiers poaching and throwing down.
I remember labrador in NY used to have a pipe. First time I saw a skier do a flip. I think it was a patroller throwing a flair. Some time around 2000. It was sick.
Idk I get that with the lack of pipes and the ridiculous tricks, it's hard to relate to. Most mtns have some rails, everyone can relate to that.
If you ever make it out to hood in the summer the pipe is a vibe. Some good hike sessions on the 18 in mile. Some people are pretty sick, some people are just learning, and everyone is having a good vibe.
Sparknotes: Pipes are gnarly and fun, and def core.
No hate but this might be the perspective I've disagreed with most on this forum ever. Moguls and halfpipe are two of the most pure "skiing" disciplines. Moguls are naturally forming at resorts, its the most "skiing" form of skiing, if you can't rip bumps you absolutely can't claim you're a good skier. Halfpipe required the edge control of GS and the air awareness of a slopestyle run, while also factoring in the ability to grab (gymnasts do not do grabs). Aerials and slopestyle are the disciplines that require the least amount of "skiing" skills
The ole stunt ditch helped progress my skiing more than slopestyle ever did. Edge control, air awareness, and transition skiing. Was lucky to have Breck's pipe in my backyard until they quit building it - it was a great escape when park lane and freeway were nuts. One thing that doesn't get talked about enough with pipe skiing is the pure amount of reps you can get in a day (so long as your legs and back can handle it). After a few years, without me really noticing, my transition skiing all over the mountain was by far superior to my core ski group...
Haven't skied a pipe in years unfortunately :( Hard to come by these days!
Whoever mentioned the "vibes" at a pipe are spot on.
naw pipe is insane and requires so much skiing skill and balls. but i'm fine with trashing it and putting asterisks on it cause my best pipe trick is a flair barely above the coping
I should have phrased myself better and I'll try and explain my rationale so you guys can better understand where I am coming from.
Pipe
I saw a couple of mentions about how halfpipes are hard to come by nowadays, whereas from a lack of snow, infrastructure (an Olympic quality pipe needs earthworks done to have the correct shape), and equipment (I'm sure @theabortionator can shed some light on this, I imagine a pipe carver would be considered a luxury at a ski resort, as well as a Cat operator who can skilfully use it).
It got me thinking: "The bar is so high for a competitive level run and there are few places to train, is this more like gymnastics?". This is in the sense that the actual on-the-snow part of skiing pipe, while technical as a few of you have pointed out, is a small piece of the puzzle compared to the actual aerial work performed by the athletes.
Hypothetically, an athlete from some form of gymnastic discipline who had a bit of knowledge of biomechanics could probably pick up the skiing portion of pipe quite easily without actually ever doing what we would consider general resort riding, I am probably wrong in that assumption though, so I am keen to hear some more opinions.
Moguls
This is more an inquisitive take than anything really from my very limited knowledge of competitive mogul skiing and the only time ever seeing anyone train it was at my time living in Whistler. I'm always curious about how people even get started in a discipline like that. I guess parents who get their kids into it and its all they end up knowing. It's just not something I would consider someone would ever want to do, most people I know hate moguls. But I would still consider it more akin to resort skiing than pipe. If any of you actually did do mogul skiing as a sport, I would be keen to get some insight into it.
theabortionatorAlso pipe for snowboarding is about as core as it gets. Pipe was almost the start of terrain parks. A lot of mountains didn't have a jump and pretty much nowhere had rails, but they might have a hand dug pipe. Eventually that transitioned into better equipment to maintain pipes.
This part is so true. i always say how i wish smaller, messier pipes would make a comeback. those things were so fun and would often morph into weird tranny-finding, sidehit parks of their own. nowadays pipes are sharply-cut ice walls that scare the hell out of most of us
This is more an inquisitive take than anything really from my very limited knowledge of competitive mogul skiing and the only time ever seeing anyone train it was at my time living in Whistler. I'm always curious about how people even get started in a discipline like that. I guess parents who get their kids into it and it’s all they end up knowing. It's just not something I would consider someone would ever want to do, most people I know hate moguls. But I would still consider it more akin to resort skiing than pipe. If any of you actually did do mogul skiing as a sport, I would be keen to get some insight into it.
I can’t speak to the competitive side, but in general most people hate moguls because they’re bad at moguls and refuse to learn. Moguls are hard and not fun to learn at first, but once you figure it out they’re highly rewarding. It’s also the natural state of a mountain that gets skied, so knowing them is an essential part of skiing. Going down the Deer Valley course at Mach 10 is absolutely wild.
1spliff2guinniesHypothetically, an athlete from some form of gymnastic discipline who had a bit of knowledge of biomechanics could probably pick up the skiing portion of pipe quite easily without actually ever doing what we would consider general resort riding, I am probably wrong in that assumption though, so I am keen to hear some more opinions.
Appreciate the explanation but unfortunately, you're still pretty wrong lol. I have some friends who switched from snowboarding to skiing and despite maintaining all of their jump tricks and picking rails up super quick, none of them can ride a pipe at all. Like brother used to have 900s in the pipe as a snowboarder, picked up skiing and the first day he was doing cork 9s on jumps, k feds on rails, but couldn't even figure out how to carve hard enough to generate the requisite speed to even air out of the pipe.
But yeah, I guess they would maintain aerial awareness but also think of how weird pipe axis are. You going off of a vertical wall that is sloping downwards at like 30 degrees, its really counterintuitive compared to anything else.
SofaKingSickThis part is so true. i always say how i wish smaller, messier pipes would make a comeback. those things were so fun and would often morph into weird tranny-finding, sidehit parks of their own. nowadays pipes are sharply-cut ice walls that scare the hell out of most of us
Would have loved that as well, even at Whistler the amount of people I saw properly ride the pipe there I could count on my fingers. A lot of parks don’t have a lot of transitional features like quarter pipes as a stepping stone. Hard to maintain I imagine.
officechairI can’t speak to the competitive side, but in general most people hate moguls because they’re bad at moguls and refuse to learn. Moguls are hard and not fun to learn at first, but once you figure it out they’re highly rewarding. It’s also the natural state of a mountain that gets skied, so knowing them is an essential part of skiing. Going down the Deer Valley course at Mach 10 is absolutely wild.
I agree, I love bombing moguled out slopes at the end of the day, especially in spring. 1 thing I do know is that the mogul/ freestyle skis are very different from your average everyday park ski, which would make it a lot easier I assume.
Farmville420Appreciate the explanation but unfortunately, you're still pretty wrong lol. I have some friends who switched from snowboarding to skiing and despite maintaining all of their jump tricks and picking rails up super quick, none of them can ride a pipe at all. Like brother used to have 900s in the pipe as a snowboarder, picked up skiing and the first day he was doing cork 9s on jumps, k feds on rails, but couldn't even figure out how to carve hard enough to generate the requisite speed to even air out of the pipe.
But yeah, I guess they would maintain aerial awareness but also think of how weird pipe axis are. You going off of a vertical wall that is sloping downwards at like 30 degrees, it’s really counterintuitive compared to anything else.
That’s really interesting to hear. I wonder if it’s because of the skis. Soft, rockered out ones would have a hard time maintaining speed, especially if the pipe softens during the day. I’ve never actually enquired about what skis pipe athletes use. Atomics?
**This post was edited on Jul 3rd 2024 at 5:46:55pm
1spliff2guinniesThat’s really interesting to hear. I wonder if it’s because of the skis. Soft, rocketed out ones would have a hard time maintaining speed, especially if the pipe softens during the day. I’ve never actually enquired about what skis pipe athletes use. Atomics?
It's not really the skis, its just that holding an edge while you land a trick is very hard. You also have to pump like crazy and have instincts that dictate the path you take from wall to wall.
To chuck a dub in a pipe you probably need to generate 10 feet above the coping minimum. Genuine challenge but next time you hit a pipe, try and carve/pump as hard as you can and see how high you get on every hit. Not just bomb down and boost once, try string like 5 hits together and if you clear 10' on every hit I will reconsider my take. But judging by this thread I think you just haven't ever actually tried to string a halfpipe run together, or are just underestimating your own skill.
Also for how hard all of that is, then you remember that pros also do it backwards, and when they compete during the winter the pipe is a literal sheet of ice. Pipe is so fucked lol
Farmville420It's not really the skis, its just that holding an edge while you land a trick is very hard. You also have to pump like crazy and have instincts that dictate the path you take from wall to wall.
To chuck a dub in a pipe you probably need to generate 10 feet above the coping minimum. Genuine challenge but next time you hit a pipe, try and carve/pump as hard as you can and see how high you get on every hit. Not just bomb down and boost once, try string like 5 hits together and if you clear 10' on every hit I will reconsider my take. But judging by this thread I think you just haven't ever actually tried to string a halfpipe run together, or are just underestimating your own skill.
Also for how hard all of that is, then you remember that pros also do it backwards, and when they compete during the winter the pipe is a literal sheet of ice. Pipe is so fucked lol
That’s the thing, I probably won’t get a chance to test your take. Closest pipe to me is Cardrona (which is fucked price-wise and is a hella tourist trap) which is currently not open. When it is open, it is generally being used by pros in closed sessions. Which kind of goes to my point that it is almost exclusive to competition level athletes. I’m sure if you were sponsored and asked a coach to dedicate your time to a super-pipe you could make it happen. But for the general public, nah.
SofaKingSickThis part is so true. i always say how i wish smaller, messier pipes would make a comeback. those things were so fun and would often morph into weird tranny-finding, sidehit parks of their own. nowadays pipes are sharply-cut ice walls that scare the hell out of most of us
People hate on keystone but they had a crazy fun mini pipe thing going on last season. First time ever trying something like it
muffMan.People hate on keystone but they had a crazy fun mini pipe thing going on last season. First time ever trying something like it
They always look so fun. Again, it is probably an infrastructure/ snow base/ mechanical issue for a lot of resorts on the benefit of making one to begin with.
**This post was edited on Jul 3rd 2024 at 6:20:40pm
1spliff2guinniesThat’s the thing, I probably won’t get a chance to test your take. Closest pipe to me is Cardrona (which is fucked price-wise and is a hella tourist trap) which is currently not open. When it is open, it is generally being used by pros in closed sessions. Which kind of goes to my point that it is almost exclusive to competition level athletes. I’m sure if you were sponsored and asked a coach to dedicate your time to a super-pipe you could make it happen. But for the general public, nah.
Okay now I get it. There's hella public pipes in the US so I can't really relate, but that is a huge bummer that there aren't any near you so sorry about that.
Anyways yeah, just because they aren't easily accessible where you live doesn't mean it is more akin to gymnastics, its actually the most pure form skiing IMO and definitely the hardest discipline of skiing.
1spliff2guinniesI should have phrased myself better and I'll try and explain my rationale so you guys can better understand where I am coming from.
Pipe
I saw a couple of mentions about how halfpipes are hard to come by nowadays, whereas from a lack of snow, infrastructure (an Olympic quality pipe needs earthworks done to have the correct shape), and equipment (I'm sure @theabortionator can shed some light on this, I imagine a pipe carver would be considered a luxury at a ski resort, as well as a Cat operator who can skilfully use it).
It got me thinking: "The bar is so high for a competitive level run and there are few places to train, is this more like gymnastics?". This is in the sense that the actual on-the-snow part of skiing pipe, while technical as a few of you have pointed out, is a small piece of the puzzle compared to the actual aerial work performed by the athletes.
Hypothetically, an athlete from some form of gymnastic discipline who had a bit of knowledge of biomechanics could probably pick up the skiing portion of pipe quite easily without actually ever doing what we would consider general resort riding, I am probably wrong in that assumption though, so I am keen to hear some more opinions.
Moguls
This is more an inquisitive take than anything really from my very limited knowledge of competitive mogul skiing and the only time ever seeing anyone train it was at my time living in Whistler. I'm always curious about how people even get started in a discipline like that. I guess parents who get their kids into it and its all they end up knowing. It's just not something I would consider someone would ever want to do, most people I know hate moguls. But I would still consider it more akin to resort skiing than pipe. If any of you actually did do mogul skiing as a sport, I would be keen to get some insight into it.
I'm not sure. To some extent yeah, but I think pipe is a lot harder than hitting a jump. Both are hard, but in recent years there have been a lot of people training airbags. Even as you mentioned gymnasts getting pulled into it and then kind of learning how to ski and snowboard to get to the jump and land.
Hitting a big jump and throwing a trick takes a lot of skill, but if you straightline at a jump, you will get air. If you go the right speed you will clear it. If you get used to how the jump pops you and figure out how to land, I think that's easier still.
Just being able to edge hard and hold your line to go big in pipe is more difficult I think. Obviously with anything gymnastic vibes come in when the level is so high with crazy spins and corks, but I think you need some decent fundamentals unless you're just doing 5's barely above coping or something.
As far as pipes and their disappearance it's a mix of things. Snow for sure is probably the biggest one. Almost every pipe, including ones in areas that get shit tons of snow, is built with snowmaking at least partially if not mostly/fully.
Snowmaking is friggin expensive, and a pipe, even with good earthwork takes a shit ton of snow. Then the amount of time for an operator/operators to push it and get it cut.
I think also with the level of riding there's more of a push for good reason to build them right, and that isn't cheap or fast.
We have a 13' Zaugg at Mammoth. Hadn't ridden that transition before. It's fun and approachable but I don't think it's that much cheaper than an 18/22.
Then you either have to have a dedicated pipe cat or swap that shit every time you cut. When I worked at buttermilk a ways back they were swapping the blade and cutter every night. I'd guess you get pretty fast at it but still takes time and a pain in the ass.
Like you mentioned getting somebody that's decent cutting even a smaller non comp pipe takes time. Also with so few resorts building them for so long, there's not as many of them that can, or people learning. I just started learning to cut last season. I made some 1/4 pipes that came out mint, but still cutting even the 13 and keeping the walls/floor proper is tough. I'm still figuring it out.
Moguls are def interesting now. I wonder the same. Back in the day obviously it was way more of a thing. Now it seems more like a random specialized thing that people end up in. A lot of big mountain skiers are decent in moguls, but pursuing that in a competitive sense? Idk
Some mountains def still have comps even low level ones for moguls and probably train them in some of their coaching programs. Maybe if you're just killing it you stay with it and move up.
I hadn't been on here in a couple weeks and then posted full length novel posts lol. It's 1am here, just finished grooming the slopes out and drinking some bourbon before I go to bed. My brain is mush so if that post makes no sense cut me some slack lolol.
I started skiing moguls after I learned that pretty much all the hard terrain gets moguls unless it snows every day. Once I learned how to properly ski them, it became so meditative to flow down a zipper line. Alongside the fact that you can almost never have a perfect mogul run keeps me coming back.
Mad respect to anyone who rides pipe as well. 22+ feet in the air on a sideways axis is terrifying
SofaKingSickThis part is so true. i always say how i wish smaller, messier pipes would make a comeback. those things were so fun and would often morph into weird tranny-finding, sidehit parks of their own. nowadays pipes are sharply-cut ice walls that scare the hell out of most of us
They are to an extent. My buddy Matt at pine knob has build a couple qp's and halpipe dealios. Aburger built one the last to years at Sugarlloaf. Some places have fixed up their old 14' pipe dragons that were rusting in the boneyards and dabbling again.
I build some qp's and other flow shit at crystal. My last season I thought I was coming back but knew I wasn't gonna do parks if I did 1 more season. Built a cat built for the last 3 weeks. Shit was really fun. Maybe 11 feet. Just over 200' long. It was obviously undervert but for a completely cat build pipe you could have some decent fun and get a few feet of air. Pain in the ass but totally worth it.
In case anyone is wondering to build this with a normal cat you build your decks and step it out. Then literally go down the pipe in back ups cutting each wall with the blade 1 cat width at a time, then fix the dumpster fire that is your floor. Huge pain in the balls but worth it. Cool to bring pipe skiing to people who otherwise might never have a chance to hit one.
I actually got it cut a decent amount steeper for the closing week but I left for Seattle right after and never even got to hit it. Thing was a pain in the ass but my little pain in the ass. It's hard to say it was "fun" but it really kind of was. Even though it was painfully slow and you get blinded by your lights reflection off the ice in front of you, but need lights to see and shape.
This was my first ever zaugged QP I built. Farmed up some snow one night and stepped her out. Frank gave me some solid pointers on how to not butcher the cutting. Still a noob with the zaugg but always cool to learn new skills. One of the reasons I moved down to mammoth was my friend hitting me up all the time, and the fact that they have multiple cutters and build multiple pipes.
As mentioned in the thread several times, not a lot of places have pipes so not a lot of places you can learn to cut.
Personally an 18' is the perfect size to me but the 13' is really accessible and everybody loves that size. I think an 18 just has a smoother radius and I'm not boosting high enough to need a 22' lol
Now that I've posted walls of text maybe I'll shut up for another 2 weeks or so
Forgive me for forgetting who it was.(I'm tired AF) but Xgames when _______ did the carve back up the same wall. That shit was wild. I remember watching it and thinking he was about to eat shit before I realized that's what he was trying to do. Idk cool to see innovation like that after years of a sport with nothing but 2 walls.
And don't stone me for bringing up snowboarding but there's been a big resurgence in just going YUUUUUUGE. Idk, somebody busting a method 20+ feet out of a 22' pipe will always tickle my fancy.
i don’t know any pipe skiers but in my experience mogul skiers CRUSH all mountain riding. so much of their edgework, upper/lower body separation and air awareness translates to natural terrain. if i was gonna raise a freeride jock i would put them in a mogul program for at least a few years
I've always thought that all forms of freestyle skiing competitions (= judged by a jury) are similar to figure skating in a way.
I don't think it has anything to do with natural formations or not - but everything to do with the fact that not only your skill but also your style is judged.
Farmville420No hate but this might be the perspective I've disagreed with most on this forum ever. Moguls and halfpipe are two of the most pure "skiing" disciplines. Moguls are naturally forming at resorts, its the most "skiing" form of skiing, if you can't rip bumps you absolutely can't claim you're a good skier. Halfpipe required the edge control of GS and the air awareness of a slopestyle run, while also factoring in the ability to grab (gymnasts do not do grabs). Aerials and slopestyle are the disciplines that require the least amount of "skiing" skills
i love this take so much.
also i like to ”judge” skiing skills how well people ski moguls, you have to be equally loose and on point in the moguls or it’s not going to work.
everytime there’s moguls to ski i’m as excited as a kid who gets his favorite candy
theabortionatorPersonally an 18' is the perfect size to me but the 13' is really accessible and everybody loves that size. I think an 18 just has a smoother radius and I'm not boosting high enough to need a 22' lol
hell yeah dude, love this. keep up the great work. i could hit that medium guy all day
