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I know how much we all like to shit on vail as a company, but continue to ride their mountains(some of us) but is it more or is the company really starting to thin out their resources? My brother is a bootfitter at one of their retail stores and hasnt been scheduled for a few weeks and from an on the hill experience at vail, i havent seen a single yellow jacket for weeks so its been more or less an all out free for all. Is something going on like a protest, walk out? Or did all the yellow jackets pick up smoking and hide at all the smoke shacks now? Ive only been at vail lately so i have no idea how the other hills are, but lemme know. Theres already the discussion of their shrinking parks, however unlike other resorts, vail still hasnt implemented the automatic gates at base chairlifts. If this keeps up, looks like there will be more speed filled adventures in the slow zones haha.
At keystone they didnt hire any J1’s this winter because they didnt wanna pay for work visa’s. The whole resort is really feeling it, theres just not enough employees.
Don_KedicAt keystone they didnt hire any J1’s this winter because they didnt wanna pay for work visa’s. The whole resort is really feeling it, theres just not enough employees.
Yeah im noticing a lot of other holes in the staffing. Seems like theres not enough lifties at vail either…i think its actually a good thing not having yellow jackets, but hopefully people just have a lil bit of common sense. Ive been in a few collisions in the past so now I try to caution myself at all costs haha.
Being that they're a public company a lot of information can be found online for them. Here's an interesting slide deck from their investor day last year. Look like they are in the process of rolling out a pilot program to enhance workforce management (slides 65-67) at Park City and Whistler. I don't know much personally about running a resort, but it appears previously workforce decisions were decentralized at each resort by business function, and they want to implement more technology to centrally manage this (scheduling, training, job roles, overall efficiency). My assumption is as resorts are gobbled up there is a tough transition period. They also mentioned more automation to "free up staff for more high value work", and state staffing is really driven my guest experience and demand. Next earnings release is early March I think
I remember when lifties were making 12 an hour. They couldnt find enough people in Tahoe because rent was 1k a month and every other job even taco bell and the gas station paid at least 15.
Anyway they had lifts cloaed because they didn't have enough people and ended up paying people even managers, a 6th day to run lifts.
Classic, don't pay enough to have a work force, then end up paying people making double said wage a 6th day of overtime to run those lifts.
blazer258Being that they're a public company a lot of information can be found online for them. Here's an interesting slide deck from their investor day last year. Look like they are in the process of rolling out a pilot program to enhance workforce management (slides 65-67) at Park City and Whistler. I don't know much personally about running a resort, but it appears previously workforce decisions were decentralized at each resort by business function, and they want to implement more technology to centrally manage this (scheduling, training, job roles, overall efficiency). My assumption is as resorts are gobbled up there is a tough transition period. They also mentioned more automation to "free up staff for more high value work", and state staffing is really driven my guest experience and demand. Next earnings release is early March I think
The only reason vail is struggling is because they have not implemented a system of using DAIRY GOATS to maintain trails. Not only are they missing out on cheap labor, they are missing out on the delicious cheese. They could be eating dat chèvre and stacking cheddar, but instead they are relying on weak and feeble bipeds to do their trail work.
hi_vis360The only reason vail is struggling is because they have not implemented a system of using DAIRY GOATS to maintain trails. Not only are they missing out on cheap labor, they are missing out on the delicious cheese. They could be eating dat chèvre and stacking cheddar, but instead they are relying on weak and feeble bipeds to do their trail work.
id be lying if I said I didnt use to run a knife over ice cream and then put ski paths through it to simulate manicuring a ski slope. Do these goats make a mad good vanilla? Vanilla Bean might be a don't judge a book by its cover scenario.
SmokedGoudaid be lying if I said I didnt use to run a knife over ice cream and then put ski paths through it to simulate manicuring a ski slope. Do these goats make a mad good vanilla? Vanilla Bean might be a don't judge a book by its cover scenario.
I've been hearing rumblings about skier numbers being down due to poor conditions/lack of snow, people not having a whole lot of money to throw down on trips this year due to economic hardship, skier number projections down, budgets and revenues not meeting expectations, and staffing issues because who the fuck wants to move to a major mountain town and get raped on COL on a resort wage....
Indy resorts are gonna take the full brunt of this unfortunately which sucks because they've been making an effort to really revamp the industry and to make it a bit more affordable and this low tide season has only fucked them over even more. I work for one myself and it's gotten to the point where they won't even have a ski school during be mid weeks, and our hours as patrollers are slashed back to 38hr/week because OT costs businesses money when they struggle.
Ahhhh what a gorgeous industry!
**This post was edited on Feb 13th 2024 at 5:01:02pm
**This post was edited on Feb 13th 2024 at 5:02:00pm
GayWolf420I've been hearing rumblings about skier numbers being down due to poor conditions/lack of snow, people not having a whole lot of money to throw down on trips this year due to economic hardship, skier number projections down, budgets and revenues not meeting expectations, and staffing issues because who the fuck wants to move to a major mountain town and get raped on COL on a resort wage....
Indy resorts are gonna take the full brunt of this unfortunately which sucks because they've been making an effort to really revamp the industry and to make it a bit more affordable and this low tide season has only fucked them over even more
Yeah. It seems as though the whole system is going to implode soon because things are becoming more unaffordable that people wont be buying as much. Think its moreso that than conditions because Colorado is having a normal season this year but I've also noticed a general lack of crowds on certain days.
SmokedGoudaI know how much we all like to shit on vail as a company, but continue to ride their mountains(some of us) but is it more or is the company really starting to thin out their resources? My brother is a bootfitter at one of their retail stores and hasnt been scheduled for a few weeks and from an on the hill experience at vail, i havent seen a single yellow jacket for weeks so its been more or less an all out free for all. Is something going on like a protest, walk out? Or did all the yellow jackets pick up smoking and hide at all the smoke shacks now? Ive only been at vail lately so i have no idea how the other hills are, but lemme know. Theres already the discussion of their shrinking parks, however unlike other resorts, vail still hasnt implemented the automatic gates at base chairlifts. If this keeps up, looks like there will be more speed filled adventures in the slow zones haha.
i know a couple of people who are instructors, and they all say that vail is falling apart and needs to get their shit together. I know we all hate on vail, and their prices are absolutely insane, but if vail falls, then we will most likely loose a lot of our favorite mountains; at least for a little bit before icon buys them. And if icon buys them we are just going to have the same ordeal. Also, not that I like vail or anything, but they do bring a lot of decently paying jobs to smaller economies.
hb_lazi know a couple of people who are instructors, and they all say that vail is falling apart and needs to get their shit together. I know we all hate on vail, and their prices are absolutely insane, but if vail falls, then we will most likely loose a lot of our favorite mountains; at least for a little bit before icon buys them. And if icon buys them we are just going to have the same ordeal. Also, not that I like vail or anything, but they do bring a lot of decently paying jobs to smaller economies.
I mean Vail would shut down its mountains before they paid their shareholders and board members less.
They probably pump 20 cents on the dollar of what they get off Epic passes into operations. It sucks there aren't anti monopoly laws here like Europe that would break them up.
Kirkwood and Wildcat were so much better before those cunts bought them.
hb_lazi know a couple of people who are instructors, and they all say that vail is falling apart and needs to get their shit together. I know we all hate on vail, and their prices are absolutely insane, but if vail falls, then we will most likely loose a lot of our favorite mountains; at least for a little bit before icon buys them. And if icon buys them we are just going to have the same ordeal. Also, not that I like vail or anything, but they do bring a lot of decently paying jobs to smaller economies.
The general vibe from some business owners I have heard from is that January was slower in the Colorado resort towns than previous years numbers wise. I don't think its like a huge drop but yeah, I think this year aint exactly a banner year in the tourist revenue category.
Yeah, I wonder how much debt they're stacking on these little resorts to pay for improvements they cannot afford which increases the valuation of the resorts thus increasing the executive bonuses which are based on portfolio and stock valuations. But I'm sure it'll work out. Just ask Toys R Us, Sears, Hostess, etc.
Fun facts, Leon Black, the founder of one of the previous biggest stock holders in Vail Resorts (Apollo ski partners) is a pedophile who personally financed Jeffrey Epstein's global child trafficking ring by giving him over $100 million dollars. Leon Black also gave Rob Katz his big break by handing over control of the Vail portfolio to Rob which was very unusual given Rob's young age and lack of experience at the time.
In short, most of your resorts are owned by pedophiles who will bankrupt them for short term profits and those profits will be used to finance a global child sex trafficking ring.
blazer258Being that they're a public company a lot of information can be found online for them. Here's an interesting slide deck from their investor day last year. Look like they are in the process of rolling out a pilot program to enhance workforce management (slides 65-67) at Park City and Whistler. I don't know much personally about running a resort, but it appears previously workforce decisions were decentralized at each resort by business function, and they want to implement more technology to centrally manage this (scheduling, training, job roles, overall efficiency). My assumption is as resorts are gobbled up there is a tough transition period. They also mentioned more automation to "free up staff for more high value work", and state staffing is really driven my guest experience and demand. Next earnings release is early March I think
Damn super interesting. Anyone else peep "Automated Snowmaking" on slide 68? Feels like that would be extremely challenging?
Done this with a sheep heard. Like 30% didn’t make it till start of winter. Lions and Coyotes were fat tho…
hi_vis360The only reason vail is struggling is because they have not implemented a system of using DAIRY GOATS to maintain trails. Not only are they missing out on cheap labor, they are missing out on the delicious cheese. They could be eating dat chèvre and stacking cheddar, but instead they are relying on weak and feeble bipeds to do their trail work.
Automation has been in snowmaking for 10+ years now. There is a long way to go before your normal snowmaker is no longer needed. While a full on automated system will cut down on employees you still need snowmaking staff, just not as many. And the upfront costs of full auto systems are expensive. Off season maintenance still has to be done by humans. I’ve only seen it cut like 10% of jobs in snowmaking, if that. And on a large crew that’s like 1 maybe 2 people a shift.
GrandThingsDamn super interesting. Anyone else peep "Automated Snowmaking" on slide 68? Feels like that would be extremely challenging?
hi_vis360The only reason vail is struggling is because they have not implemented a system of using DAIRY GOATS to maintain trails. Not only are they missing out on cheap labor, they are missing out on the delicious cheese. They could be eating dat chèvre and stacking cheddar, but instead they are relying on weak and feeble bipeds to do their trail work.
Tried to milk the goats that maintain Black Mountain's trails in the summer. Now I'm banned from the Indy Pass
BreknridgeKidwestern mega resorts can’t fail, Breck, Vail, Copper, Keystone, Beaver, Winter Park etc…
What makes you think that?
A for-profit publicly owned business will do anything to stay profitable and please shareholders, which means if one of their products (ie a ski resort) is not producing profit, why would they keep running it? Huge corporations shutter massive business daily.
A for-profit publicly owned business will do anything to stay profitable and please shareholders, which means if one of their products (ie a ski resort) is not producing profit, why would they keep running it? Huge corporations shutter massive business daily.
I think his point was those resorts are some of their bread and butter. And they would likely let others go by the wayside to keep the bread and butter going.
only think vail is struggling with is new ways to take our money.
PartyBullshiitI think his point was those resorts are some of their bread and butter. And they would likely let others go by the wayside to keep the bread and butter going.
only think vail is struggling with is new ways to take our money.
he was referring to more than just Vail.
everyone on this website lives in a bubble where skiing is their favorite activity and they don't see the world from outside of that perspective. a large western ski resort could get shut down 100%, its very unlikely right now because skiing/snowboarding is very popular. but 10-20 years from now I wouldn't be surprised if we see some of these resorts sold and then failing/never opening after they sell/only operating in the peak seasons.
There is no resort "too big to fail" that's some shit that only applies to businesses supported by our government, like banks.
everyone on this website lives in a bubble where skiing is their favorite activity and they don't see the world from outside of that perspective. a large western ski resort could get shut down 100%, its very unlikely right now because skiing/snowboarding is very popular. but 10-20 years from now I wouldn't be surprised if we see some of these resorts sold and then failing/never opening after they sell/only operating in the peak seasons.
There is no resort "too big to fail" that's some shit that only applies to businesses supported by our government, like banks.
10-20 years from now sure anything can happen. It’s just not realistic is the point.
vail/aspen are not closing in 10-20 years. Unless snow literally just stops and it’s 100 degrees there.
PartyBullshiit10-20 years from now sure anything can happen. It’s just not realistic is the point.
vail/aspen are not closing in 10-20 years. Unless snow literally just stops and it’s 100 degrees there.
What makes you so certain about that?
These large resorts are operating on small margins, the cost of labor has skyrocketed, the cost of goods has skyrocketed, the overall experience of going skiing has degraded and the issues surrounding going skiing (parking, traffic, price of entry) are going to slowly push people out of the sport. Everything is going to keep getting more expensive and there will be a tipping point where a large resort will struggle to operate as they do today.
VR and Alterra have put a ton of their business on the wellbeing of their resorts for the next decade, it could easily completely flop, I forsee hiring enough staff as the #1 problem facing these mega resorts.
everyone on this website lives in a bubble where skiing is their favorite activity and they don't see the world from outside of that perspective. a large western ski resort could get shut down 100%, its very unlikely right now because skiing/snowboarding is very popular. but 10-20 years from now I wouldn't be surprised if we see some of these resorts sold and then failing/never opening after they sell/only operating in the peak seasons.
There is no resort "too big to fail" that's some shit that only applies to businesses supported by our government, like banks.
This 100. I actually think the epic pass was not only reactionary to price changes, but to appease to more skiers because it became more difficult for resorts to sell real estate. Look at the resorts by park city for example. Theyre huge real estate developments. The shock hill area of breck is real estate. The resort contructed villages is real estate. When resorts can no longer sell real estate and can no longer attract enough skiers to keep afloat, they can fail in a flash. This is also why resorts started building more bike trails and adventure parks for the summer to attract a sizable audience albeit at ridiculous prices, but that just goes to show how hard is is to maintain a resort and in a warming world where more snowmaking will need to be used, itll cost even more.
These large resorts are operating on small margins, the cost of labor has skyrocketed, the cost of goods has skyrocketed, the overall experience of going skiing has degraded and the issues surrounding going skiing (parking, traffic, price of entry) are going to slowly push people out of the sport. Everything is going to keep getting more expensive and there will be a tipping point where a large resort will struggle to operate as they do today.
VR and Alterra have put a ton of their business on the wellbeing of their resorts for the next decade, it could easily completely flop, I forsee hiring enough staff as the #1 problem facing these mega resorts.
Because the amount of money in vail and aspen and the immediate surrounding areas make it too large to fail. And that’s the point. It’s the bread and butter.
vail/aspen aren’t having any issues getting people atm. Hell Breck and beaver aren’t either. We just looked at new units being built at beaver. Already 75% sold out and they’re not even done.
I don’t disagree the smaller resorts will suffer because of this method and some will go away. The large bread and butter resorts will not.
unless weather makes it impossible for skiing the large ones will not close. That’s just a fact. People aren’t suddenly going to stop going to the large western resorts.
You and others may get priced out and not be able to go like you want to. Yes. But there is always people with more money than you who will keep on going regardless of anything else. Those are just facts.
skiing has only gotten stronger over the past 10-20 years and the trend will continue no matter how much doubt you want to have.
PartyBullshiitBecause the amount of money in vail and aspen and the immediate surrounding areas make it too large to fail. And that’s the point. It’s the bread and butter.
vail/aspen aren’t having any issues getting people atm. Hell Breck and beaver aren’t either. We just looked at new units being built at beaver. Already 75% sold out and they’re not even done.
I don’t disagree the smaller resorts will suffer because of this method and some will go away. The large bread and butter resorts will not.
unless weather makes it impossible for skiing the large ones will not close. That’s just a fact. People aren’t suddenly going to stop going to the large western resorts.
You and others may get priced out and not be able to go like you want to. Yes. But there is always people with more money than you who will keep on going regardless of anything else. Those are just facts.
skiing has only gotten stronger over the past 10-20 years and the trend will continue no matter how much doubt you want to have.
I mean we agree here to a point, I know that right now everyone is fine.
But you are completely missing my other point, im sure you remember the housing bubble in 2008, or the dot com bubble in 2000. These business are propped up on future profit that if they run into issues like staffing, its going to be a large problem and could cause one of these larger resorts to shutdown.
I dont think weather will be the demise of the first large western ski resort, we can agree to disagree about it. rich people cant support all of the resorts in the west.
I think you're too focused on vail and aspen, those are obvious staples that will be supported by rich people forever and i think youre overestimating the amount of money rich people would put into ski resorts if they suddenly became less profitable/not profitable.
either way, i think we'll all get to ski amazing western resorts for decades before the rich elite buy them up and make them private or whatever ends up happening.
**This post was edited on Feb 26th 2024 at 12:55:04pm
eheathI mean we agree here to a point, I know that right now everyone is fine.
But you are completely missing my other point, im sure you remember the housing bubble in 2008, or the dot com bubble in 2000. These business are propped up on future profit that if they run into issues like staffing, its going to be a large problem and could cause one of these larger resorts to shutdown.
I dont think weather will be the demise of the first large western ski resort, we can agree to disagree about it. rich people cant support all of the resorts in the west.
I think you're too focused on vail and aspen, those are obvious staples that will be supported by rich people forever and i think youre overestimating the amount of money rich people would put into ski resorts if they suddenly became less profitable/not profitable.
either way, i think we'll all get to ski amazing western resorts for decades before the rich elite buy them up and make them private or whatever ends up happening.
**This post was edited on Feb 26th 2024 at 12:55:04pm
I hear your point. I’m 40 so yes I remember all the recent financial crisis, as I have worked in finance departments for the last 20 years across Carnival cruise lines, Royal Caribbean and Virgin voyages. I’m now with Disney working in the vacation club department dealing literally with profits and losses like I have with my past positions.
I just don’t think you understand how these large corporations work behind closed doors. Especially ones that have share holders to answer too.
At carnival we cannibalized ships to build new ones.
At Royal we sold off ships to other lines to build new ones
Virgin was new so we didn’t really have anything to sell but Virgin Atlantic sold off planes to help fund the ship purchase.
Disney we’ve cut new hotel room development to create new vacation club properties instead prioritizing our land resorts.
the reason we did all those things was to keep our “bread and butter” products at the forefront which is my whole point.
Pick any bread and butter resort you want if you don’t like using vail and aspen. Heavenly, Taos, telluride, copper, crystal whatever you want.
those types of resorts are not going to close for financial reasons unless they physically can’t have guest because of weather.
the companies run on such small margins because they’re prioritizing profits. Which they’re making hand over fist. If it came to them loosing their bread and butter or lowering profits a little to keep a large resort afloat I can 1000% guarantee you upper level executives are going to trim fat by getting rid of the little resorts. Not their mega profits ones.
running on small margins to maximize profits is absolutely nothing new. My gf is a director for st Regis. I think it would blow your mind how in the red they run all the time at properties because the owners want to maximize profits over providing the highest level of guest experience.
i do appreciate your opinion and I can absolutely see where you are getting your thoughts from. I just don’t think you understand how it works behind closed doors a mega corporation finance wise.
PartyBullshiitI hear your point. I’m 40 so yes I remember all the recent financial crisis, as I have worked in finance departments for the last 20 years across Carnival cruise lines, Royal Caribbean and Virgin voyages. I’m now with Disney working in the vacation club department dealing literally with profits and losses like I have with my past positions.
I just don’t think you understand how these large corporations work behind closed doors. Especially ones that have share holders to answer too.
At carnival we cannibalized ships to build new ones.
At Royal we sold off ships to other lines to build new ones
Virgin was new so we didn’t really have anything to sell but Virgin Atlantic sold off planes to help fund the ship purchase.
Disney we’ve cut new hotel room development to create new vacation club properties instead prioritizing our land resorts.
the reason we did all those things was to keep our “bread and butter” products at the forefront which is my whole point.
Pick any bread and butter resort you want if you don’t like using vail and aspen. Heavenly, Taos, telluride, copper, crystal whatever you want.
those types of resorts are not going to close for financial reasons unless they physically can’t have guest because of weather.
the companies run on such small margins because they’re prioritizing profits. Which they’re making hand over fist. If it came to them loosing their bread and butter or lowering profits a little to keep a large resort afloat I can 1000% guarantee you upper level executives are going to trim fat by getting rid of the little resorts. Not their mega profits ones.
running on small margins to maximize profits is absolutely nothing new. My gf is a director for st Regis. I think it would blow your mind how in the red they run all the time at properties because the owners want to maximize profits over providing the highest level of guest experience.
i do appreciate your opinion and I can absolutely see where you are getting your thoughts from. I just don’t think you understand how it works behind closed doors a mega corporation finance wise.
i mean you're right, im not an expert, the things you are saying are things I have heard before, i am speculating. but one thing I do know a lot about is how ski resorts operate, how much it has changed in a very short amount of time (less than a decade) and I know that it could change in the next decade.
im not sure if comparing the st regis to say Taos comes off as reasonable to me, as the st regis is not depending on skiing to run as a business.
I just think its a bit head in the sand to think that a ski resort couldn't be shut down for financial reasons, maybe we're focusing on the wrong end game, because theoretically if Vail/alterra wants to ditch some low performing resort, they'd sell it before they "shut it down" but who would buy it? prob some rich people who can do the same thing as vail/alterra and eat losses for a decade, but maybe that would "shut it down" for regular skiers that arent part of the rich elite.
Just seeing how the resorts are these days, how often people are complaining about their experience, the rise in all costs surrounding skiing and the operating of ski resorts, just feels like something is going to happen.
eheathi mean you're right, im not an expert, the things you are saying are things I have heard before, i am speculating. but one thing I do know a lot about is how ski resorts operate, how much it has changed in a very short amount of time (less than a decade) and I know that it could change in the next decade.
im not sure if comparing the st regis to say Taos comes off as reasonable to me, as the st regis is not depending on skiing to run as a business.
I just think its a bit head in the sand to think that a ski resort couldn't be shut down for financial reasons, maybe we're focusing on the wrong end game, because theoretically if Vail/alterra wants to ditch some low performing resort, they'd sell it before they "shut it down" but who would buy it? prob some rich people who can do the same thing as vail/alterra and eat losses for a decade, but maybe that would "shut it down" for regular skiers that arent part of the rich elite.
Just seeing how the resorts are these days, how often people are complaining about their experience, the rise in all costs surrounding skiing and the operating of ski resorts, just feels like something is going to happen.
What I do picture happening is a change of demographic skier wise. It’s already having that feeling at the big resorts that you just have less and less locals/serious skiers and more and more strictly first time/ one time tourist skiers. With the rising costs and everything just seemingly becoming more exclusive. It feels like they’re trying to price out the have nots and gather all the haves. The old saying money talks and bullshit walks really applies. Not saying that’s right by any means.
I do think the locals and small guys will suffer the most. Like you said they’ll try and sell off some resorts but I also picture them asking stupid money which would mean more would close hurting the smaller local folks
skiermanYeah, I wonder how much debt they're stacking on these little resorts to pay for improvements they cannot afford which increases the valuation of the resorts thus increasing the executive bonuses which are based on portfolio and stock valuations.
skiermanTake a minute to google it, you lazy POS
I would comment but it appears you answered for me.
That slide deck was nice. Everyone complains about day pass prices but they literally spell it out if it wasn't obvious enough yet. They're increasing day pass prices to push everyone towards the subscription model because it is more profitable and reliable for all skier types, even you locals. They are buying no name places in Ohio and PA to add to their subscriber model. I'm surprised NC hasn't been targeted yet, especially given that Charlotte and Raleigh are two of the fastest growing regions in the US and within a few hours of two separate mountains. They are very open about their aggressive expansion and acquisition plans. They're coming for Europe too lol so you fuckers bragging about cheap tickets....for now.
We should also expect more independent ski areas to struggle as skiers move to IKON/Epic passes and stop going to places not on those passes. Those independents will have to raise their prices to stay afloat and that will push even more skiers away and towards passes. This is only the beginning of the consolidation...
Therefore this whole debate going on above me about they have little thresholds to close down underperforming places is questionable. Yes that's common in big corporations to trim the fat but for vr, it's part of their business plan. Those places couldn't have had great profit margins when they bought them anyway. If they close them, well, they lose many of those subscribers and hinder ability to add new subscribers in those areas. That's unlikely to happen. If they start seeing regional drops in subscribers though, that may be a possibility of closing some locations in those underperforming regions.
The only stupid things are:
-Mobile pass idea...cool until your phone runs out of juice.
-Same wage across all resorts. This should be location specific and differentiate more for certain roles. The income to survive in Vail, CO is much different than Bellefontaine, OH...lol mad river.
-Their self proclaimed focus on attracting and retaining top talent. Lmao. This will be their downfall and probably their biggest risk in the next 20 years.
-Their confidence that new resorts will not be built and aren't a threat.
And don't be mad at Vail. Be mad at the people they paid to design this very lucrative master plan.
