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Went for a bootfitting and am trying to decide between the mindbenders or the hawx ultras
so went to a boot fitter a few days ago, got fit into a mindbender 130 boa’s and boot fitter said they’d work without needing much boot work, but i was also interested in the hawx ultra xtd boa’s. he brought those out, and they also fit decently, but he said they would need some more boot work, but either boot would work.
js tryna decide between the two, and if anyone’s tried both of them, any significant difference between them? they’re probably gonna be used like 70/30 resort/bc add mainly focused on the downhill aspect, so weight isn’t a concern. any info would be great honestly, and if @onenerdykid or @tomPietrowski could comment on the more intricate details between the two, that’d be nice.
sonofsonI have the Hawx Ultra 110 BOA. All I can say that's relevant for you is - going with BOA is 100% the right choice, whichever boot you choose.
honestly yea, boot fitter had both the boa and buckles in stock, and the boa felt so much better as i could tighten it and ‘wrap’ my foot without pressure spots
I mean yeah I have skied them both and they are both great boots. I think the biggest difference really is how much backcountry you want to do. If you are going to do more touring I would go hawx they walk better and feel more slanted to the backcountry in overall feel. If you will do more resort I would probably lean to mindbender as that is really how we focus that boot. That walk well but they ski really well. But you won’t go wrong with either.
tomPietrowskiI mean yeah I have skied them both and they are both great boots. I think the biggest difference really is how much backcountry you want to do. If you are going to do more touring I would go hawx they walk better and feel more slanted to the backcountry in overall feel. If you will do more resort I would probably lean to mindbender as that is really how we focus that boot. That walk well but they ski really well. But you won’t go wrong with either.
okay yea i do ski more resort, and i’d only be touring occasionally
First things first: get the boot that fits you best. There are differences in fit between the two, the Atomic being lower volume, especially in the rear foot (ankle & heel).
I'll give you a rundown on the Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD, just the facts about it and you can come to your own conclusions.
This is a boot that is purpose built as a one-boot quiver for both resort use and touring, but the current 23/24 version is much better suited as a resort boot that can go touring when you want to.
We use a heat-moldable PU shell and a PU cuff. PU (polyurethane) is what is used in dedicated alpine/resort boots because it is more damp, more progressive, more durable, and better for boot fitting. When you want to use a boot in the resort, you want this material. It does add some weight, but the other benefits it brings when skiing the resort are more important than a few grams for the occasional touring this user tends to do.
With our PU, the boot is also completely heat-moldable, so if you need extra space created, this boot easily adapts to your foot shape during the boot fitting session.
Our liner is made with and from the same materials that we use in the regular, fixed-cuff Hawx Ultra. It's heavier but also built with foot hold, downhill performance, and longevity in mind. We used to make the liner much lighter, but enough people complained that it didn't have the foot hold or skiing performance of their regular Hawx Ultra. Well, now it is literally the same as the regular Hawx Ultra liner but with an Achilles flex zone for touring. Again, made for the resort but optimized for touring too.
The liner also has a special material inside it that we call Mimic. Mimic is not a heat-moldable foam but instead a heat-moldable plastic (what creates that special ankle shape of the liner). Mimic is given a pre-shape to fit a lot of people, but when it is heated in our oven, it becomes totally moldable, fully shapes to your anatomy, and hardens in that shape for forever (or until you remold it again). For a "stock" liner, this is a pretty baller technology. Below is what the liner looks like after heated and squishing the ankle with my hand- it took the impression of my fingers and has stayed that way for over 4 years now. I still use this liner in my clinics.
We also make an aftermarket accessory called the Gnar Bar, which is a solid piece of metal that replaces your ski/walk mechanism for added stiffness, responsiveness, and stability. All ski/walk mechanisms have a little play in them, which you can sometimes feel. They don't inadvertently pop open, but you can feel this play. When you know you'll be skiing in the resort for a while, just unscrew the ski/walk mech and put the Gnar Bar on instead. This allows you to turn your hybrid boot into a fixed-cuff boot and squeeze out every ounce of performance for those resort days. And when it comes time to do a big touring day, just unscrew the Gnar Bar and swap back to the ski/walk mechanism. It's like having 2 boots in 1.
onenerdykidFirst things first: get the boot that fits you best. There are differences in fit between the two, the Atomic being lower volume, especially in the rear foot (ankle & heel).
I'll give you a rundown on the Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD, just the facts about it and you can come to your own conclusions.
This is a boot that is purpose built as a one-boot quiver for both resort use and touring, but the current 23/24 version is much better suited as a resort boot that can go touring when you want to.
We use a heat-moldable PU shell and a PU cuff. PU (polyurethane) is what is used in dedicated alpine/resort boots because it is more damp, more progressive, more durable, and better for boot fitting. When you want to use a boot in the resort, you want this material. It does add some weight, but the other benefits it brings when skiing the resort are more important than a few grams for the occasional touring this user tends to do.
With our PU, the boot is also completely heat-moldable, so if you need extra space created, this boot easily adapts to your foot shape during the boot fitting session.
Our liner is made with and from the same materials that we use in the regular, fixed-cuff Hawx Ultra. It's heavier but also built with foot hold, downhill performance, and longevity in mind. We used to make the liner much lighter, but enough people complained that it didn't have the foot hold or skiing performance of their regular Hawx Ultra. Well, now it is literally the same as the regular Hawx Ultra liner but with an Achilles flex zone for touring. Again, made for the resort but optimized for touring too.
The liner also has a special material inside it that we call Mimic. Mimic is not a heat-moldable foam but instead a heat-moldable plastic (what creates that special ankle shape of the liner). Mimic is given a pre-shape to fit a lot of people, but when it is heated in our oven, it becomes totally moldable, fully shapes to your anatomy, and hardens in that shape for forever (or until you remold it again). For a "stock" liner, this is a pretty baller technology. Below is what the liner looks like after heated and squishing the ankle with my hand- it took the impression of my fingers and has stayed that way for over 4 years now. I still use this liner in my clinics.
We also make an aftermarket accessory called the Gnar Bar, which is a solid piece of metal that replaces your ski/walk mechanism for added stiffness, responsiveness, and stability. All ski/walk mechanisms have a little play in them, which you can sometimes feel. They don't inadvertently pop open, but you can feel this play. When you know you'll be skiing in the resort for a while, just unscrew the ski/walk mech and put the Gnar Bar on instead. This allows you to turn your hybrid boot into a fixed-cuff boot and squeeze out every ounce of performance for those resort days. And when it comes time to do a big touring day, just unscrew the Gnar Bar and swap back to the ski/walk mechanism. It's like having 2 boots in 1.
okay yea with the PU, the hawx do seem a bit better, just more expensive and am deciding going for it but the liner also seems really nice. i do think the heel hold is a bit tighter and better in the atomics, but everywhere else the mindbender fits better.
okrdokrrokay yea with the PU, the hawx do seem a bit better, just more expensive and am deciding going for it but the liner also seems really nice. i do think the heel hold is a bit tighter and better in the atomics, but everywhere else the mindbender fits better.
I think you and I have similar feet. Boot fitter recommend both options to me as well. I also felt the K2s were ever so slightly more comfy. In the end, I chose the Atomics because of the heel retention. One the liners went in the oven, it totally closed the gap on that extra bit that made the K2s feel better. The Mimic liner is seriously good product.
homies3xualI think you and I have similar feet. Boot fitter recommend both options to me as well. I also felt the K2s were ever so slightly more comfy. In the end, I chose the Atomics because of the heel retention. One the liners went in the oven, it totally closed the gap on that extra bit that made the K2s feel better. The Mimic liner is seriously good product.
yea honestly the atomics look so nice but another reason i’m leaning towards the k2 is cause it’s a bit cheaper. but the tighter heel hold of the atomic is nicer. i do like the boa on the mindbender liner but it does seem that the mimic would be better when fully molded along with the atomic shell
okrdokrryea honestly the atomics look so nice but another reason i’m leaning towards the k2 is cause it’s a bit cheaper. but the tighter heel hold of the atomic is nicer. i do like the boa on the mindbender liner but it does seem that the mimic would be better when fully molded along with the atomic shell
The power fit pro liner is also fully heat moldable so yes that atomic liner is great but don’t discount our liner. You will find it really adapts to the foot after molding and the shell is also fully heat moldable. And the boa closure is so nice to really wrap that liner around the foot especially when you are touring.
As I said I skied both and yes the heel is slightly tighter in the atomic but it was very close. To me the big difference is the ski performance compared to the touring performance. That is where the boots really feel different.
On the powerfit liner too , we use a full wrap of Ultralon foam. Ultralon is the same foam material as used in our Intuition liners. The only reason we do not brand them Intuition is we have to pay for the Intuition tag so we instead use just the Ultralon logo which we can use for free. But the foam you are getting is the same as the Intuition liners so the heat molding and fit you get will be just as good. Its a story we should probably be telling more as our liners do often get overlooked when really depending on the level you are getting basically a Intuition liner in many of the boots.
tomPietrowskiThe power fit pro liner is also fully heat moldable so yes that atomic liner is great but don’t discount our liner. You will find it really adapts to the foot after molding and the shell is also fully heat moldable. And the boa closure is so nice to really wrap that liner around the foot especially when you are touring.
As I said I skied both and yes the heel is slightly tighter in the atomic but it was very close. To me the big difference is the ski performance compared to the touring performance. That is where the boots really feel different.
hey tom, could you talk more about the reason why the mindbenders feel better on the downhill compared to the hawx considering that the atomics use a PU cuff while the k2’s use a pebax cuff. PU seems to be better in almost every aspect besides weight, so i’m wondering what’s the reason the k2 are better on the downhill ?
also with the heel hold, is there a way to make it tighter? as the hawx’s heel fits me better but the rest of the mindbenders fits me better. i’m looking to get a performance fit abd punch out the toebox for touring, as they’re mainly a downhill boot. is there also something like a atomic gnar bar but for the k2’s?
**This post was edited on Dec 15th 2023 at 2:01:53pm
okrdokrrhey tom, could you talk more about the reason why the mindbenders feel better on the downhill compared to the hawx considering that the atomics use a PU cuff while the k2’s use a pebax cuff. PU seems to be better in almost every aspect besides weight, so i’m wondering what’s the reason the k2 are better on the downhill ?
also with the heel hold, is there a way to make it tighter? as the hawx’s heel fits me better but the rest of the mindbenders fits me better. i’m looking to get a performance fit abd punch out the toebox for touring, as they’re mainly a downhill boot. is there also something like a atomic gnar bar but for the k2’s?
**This post was edited on Dec 15th 2023 at 2:01:53pm
So the main flex from a boot primarily will come from the lower shell deforming and this is where we believe its really important to use PU in this style of boot. The way we built the boa shells really helps the boots perform to a high level and its the slightly thicker shell that gives the great damp yet high performance feel. We actually use Pebax in the cuff mainly for its rebound qualities. As im sure you know we also make the FL3X line and Full tilt before that. We use Pebax tongues on all those 3 piece boots because we get the most rebound from that material. The springy rebound is what gives those boots there "pop" and we use it for the same reasons on the highest flex overlap boots. When we have tested PU cuffs on the very stiffest lower shells the ride is really damp but lacks a little energy and its this energy and rebound we can get back by using Pebax in the cuff. We are building the Mindbender to be the ultimate freeride boot which to us means designing it for riders to use it to hit backcountry kickers and ski gnarly lines more so than using it to go on big backcounrty missions, so we built the boots to still be lively and suitable for that type of skiing.
Heel is tough you can not make the shell smaller so the atomic will always be slightly tighter there. You can add material to teh liner but if the heel is loose in our boot the atomic will be better.
And no we don't have the equivalent of a gnar bar as honestly we don't need it. We developed a locking walk mech so it can slip out of place once engaged so once you have the walk mech down in ski mode it will be fully solid.
okrdokrralso with the heel hold, is there a way to make it tighter? as the hawx’s heel fits me better but the rest of the mindbenders fits me better. i’m looking to get a performance fit abd punch out the toebox for touring, as they’re mainly a downhill boot. is there also something like a atomic gnar bar but for the k2’s?
**This post was edited on Dec 15th 2023 at 2:01:53pm
When it comes to performance-oriented boot fitting (with any brand), you match the boot to the needs of your rear foot and then widen/expand the front as needed. You don't match the boot to your forefoot and then pad the ankle. Get the boot that fits your heel, ankle, and heel-to-instep perimeter, then you widen/expand the forefoot as necessary. You'll get the performance you need and the comfort you want.
I think there also needs to be some clarification about what the Gnar Bar is, why it exists, and what it problems it solves. First, it does not exist to prevent the ski/walk mechanism from accidentally opening. There is no need for a locking switch on our ski/walk mechanism. When the ski/walk mechanism is properly closed, the more your flex forward the more it locks onto the heel bar and the more you lean backward, the same. Second, we have painstakingly machined the interface between the mechanism arm and bar on the heel to 0.125mm of tolerance (that is absurdly tight) - there is no discernible play at this interface and no need for a lock. What every external ski/walk mechanism encounters is play at the pivot point between the arm and base plate due its riveted construction. And you can experience it for yourself on every boot with this style of mechanism. This area in the mechanism is simply too small to incorporate some sort of bearing & screw interface like a mountain bike suspension linkage uses to eliminate the play. So, the next best thing is to simply do away with it and create the most solid interface possible. The Gnar Bar is more solid fore & aft and torsionally, and no ski/walk mechanism can match it.
**This post was edited on Dec 15th 2023 at 4:44:56pm
RiplineDude im thinking about adding those next to my il moros. How are the hawk 110 boas for resort, bit of park, trees etc?
100% up for it.
Chris Benchetler only uses our Ultra XTD 130 BOA boot now, nothing else. Most of our team has a fixed-cuff boots in their quiver, but you'll see our backcountry freestyle athletes like him, McNutt, Durtschi, and Kai Jones primarily in this boot series.
tomPietrowskiSo the main flex from a boot primarily will come from the lower shell deforming and this is where we believe its really important to use PU in this style of boot. The way we built the boa shells really helps the boots perform to a high level and its the slightly thicker shell that gives the great damp yet high performance feel. We actually use Pebax in the cuff mainly for its rebound qualities. As im sure you know we also make the FL3X line and Full tilt before that. We use Pebax tongues on all those 3 piece boots because we get the most rebound from that material. The springy rebound is what gives those boots there "pop" and we use it for the same reasons on the highest flex overlap boots. When we have tested PU cuffs on the very stiffest lower shells the ride is really damp but lacks a little energy and its this energy and rebound we can get back by using Pebax in the cuff. We are building the Mindbender to be the ultimate freeride boot which to us means designing it for riders to use it to hit backcountry kickers and ski gnarly lines more so than using it to go on big backcounrty missions, so we built the boots to still be lively and suitable for that type of skiing.
Heel is tough you can not make the shell smaller so the atomic will always be slightly tighter there. You can add material to teh liner but if the heel is loose in our boot the atomic will be better.
And no we don't have the equivalent of a gnar bar as honestly we don't need it. We developed a locking walk mech so it can slip out of place once engaged so once you have the walk mech down in ski mode it will be fully solid.
okay so i do see that every other resort focused boot all use PU in the shell, and between the mindbenders and the recon series, is the mindbender using the pebax for the rebound only? or is it also there for weight savings as looking at the recon, it seems to be using a PU cuff. why use pebax in the mindbender when people skiing resort probably also hit kickers where the pebax would benefit them in the recon? is there an advantage of PU over pebax being used in the recon series?
i’ll also go back to the boot fitter to test the heel hold again.
onenerdykidWhen it comes to performance-oriented boot fitting (with any brand), you match the boot to the needs of your rear foot and then widen/expand the front as needed. You don't match the boot to your forefoot and then pad the ankle. Get the boot that fits your heel, ankle, and heel-to-instep perimeter, then you widen/expand the forefoot as necessary. You'll get the performance you need and the comfort you want.
I think there also needs to be some clarification about what the Gnar Bar is, why it exists, and what it problems it solves. First, it does not exist to prevent the ski/walk mechanism from accidentally opening. There is no need for a locking switch on our ski/walk mechanism. When the ski/walk mechanism is properly closed, the more your flex forward the more it locks onto the heel bar and the more you lean backward, the same. Second, we have painstakingly machined the interface between the mechanism arm and bar on the heel to 0.125mm of tolerance (that is absurdly tight) - there is no discernible play at this interface and no need for a lock. What every external ski/walk mechanism encounters is play at the pivot point between the arm and base plate due its riveted construction. And you can experience it for yourself on every boot with this style of mechanism. This area in the mechanism is simply too small to incorporate some sort of bearing & screw interface like a mountain bike suspension linkage uses to eliminate the play. So, the next best thing is to simply do away with it and create the most solid interface possible. The Gnar Bar is more solid fore & aft and torsionally, and no ski/walk mechanism can match it.
**This post was edited on Dec 15th 2023 at 4:44:56pm
so i've been very used to riding a full tilt ascendent as thats what my previous boot fitter fit me in, but looking back, he wasn’t a good boot fitter and my heel feels pretty loose in the ascendents along with the front also being too roomy. i’m not actually sure if what i’m feeling means the heel hold of the hawx are too tight, and the mindbenders are just right, or if the hawx are just right, and the mindbenders are too loose.
okrdokrrso i've been very used to riding a full tilt ascendent as thats what my previous boot fitter fit me in, but looking back, he wasn’t a good boot fitter and my heel feels pretty loose in the ascendents along with the front also being too roomy. i’m not actually sure if what i’m feeling means the heel hold of the hawx are too tight, and the mindbenders are just right, or if the hawx are just right, and the mindbenders are too loose.
No one here can say for sure since we can't see your foot in the shell, but as a widely accepted rule in boot fitting: it's way easier to make a boot larger (create space) than it is to make a boot smaller (shrink it down).
The tightest the boot will ever be is when it is brand new. It only gets looser.
This doesn't mean that you have to be in pain or discomfort, but the properly sized & shaped boot should feel like a very snug handshake, your toes might go a little numb, or you develop a pressure spot somewhere.. A good boot fitter will address your those pressure spots and make room where needed. With many modern, high-end boots, like Hawx Ultra XTD, it is quite easy to achieve.
onenerdykidNo one here can say for sure since we can't see your foot in the shell, but as a widely accepted rule in boot fitting: it's way easier to make a boot larger (create space) than it is to make a boot smaller (shrink it down).
The tightest the boot will ever be is when it is brand new. It only gets looser.
This doesn't mean that you have to be in pain or discomfort, but the properly sized & shaped boot should feel like a very snug handshake, your toes might go a little numb, or you develop a pressure spot somewhere.. A good boot fitter will address your those pressure spots and make room where needed. With many modern, high-end boots, like Hawx Ultra XTD, it is quite easy to achieve.
okay got it thank you i’ll go back to the boot fitter to see how it fits again
okrdokrrokay so i do see that every other resort focused boot all use PU in the shell, and between the mindbenders and the recon series, is the mindbender using the pebax for the rebound only? or is it also there for weight savings as looking at the recon, it seems to be using a PU cuff. why use pebax in the mindbender when people skiing resort probably also hit kickers where the pebax would benefit them in the recon? is there an advantage of PU over pebax being used in the recon series?
i’ll also go back to the boot fitter to test the heel hold again.
We do use the Pebax cuff on our recon and anthem team boots which is what our athletes use. We don’t do it on the recon and anthem 130/115 as that consumer is different than that of the mindbender or recon/anthem team. They tend to be less freestyle focused and don’t appreciate the more lively pebax cuff and instead the slightly damper tpu cuff.
RiplineDude im thinking about adding those next to my il moros. How are the hawk 110 boas for resort, bit of park, trees etc?
Honestly man, in my experience they give me something none of my prior boots ever gave me. Perfect fit, nice weight vs stability ratio, clean and aggressive look... if you are looking for a boot that lets you hit the bc and hit parks, trees etc they are it. No compromise
tomPietrowskiWe do use the Pebax cuff on our recon and anthem team boots which is what our athletes use. We don’t do it on the recon and anthem 130/115 as that consumer is different than that of the mindbender or recon/anthem team. They tend to be less freestyle focused and don’t appreciate the more lively pebax cuff and instead the slightly damper tpu cuff.
ah okay that makes sense. so seems like PU is more damp, and better for cruddy days while pebax is more for the freestyle crowd ?
okrdokrrah okay that makes sense. so seems like PU is more damp, and better for cruddy days while pebax is more for the freestyle crowd ?
Generally yeah that’s why we use it on certain models and not others. Using different materials just lets us really tune how each model within a lineup works and who will appreciate it the most.
sonofsonHonestly man, in my experience they give me something none of my prior boots ever gave me. Perfect fit, nice weight vs stability ratio, clean and aggressive look... if you are looking for a boot that lets you hit the bc and hit parks, trees etc they are it. No compromise
tomPietrowskiGenerally yeah that’s why we use it on certain models and not others. Using different materials just lets us really tune how each model within a lineup works and who will appreciate it the most.
Just to add to your thread. I just got the recon 130 boa and couldn’t be happier. One thing to note since you’re consider the boa version. K2 designed the new boa version shells from the ground up as a boa shell. They didn’t just add boa to their buckle boot. I also tried on the atomics and they were extremely appealing to me performance wise.
I chose the k2 because it truly fit me better. If the atomic had fit better that’s what I would have bought. Either are great boots but neither will matter if it’s not the right shape for your foot. I was over all too tight in the atomic. Especially in my heel. Which you cannot make that area bigger.
the k2 heel is tight but not painful for me personally. I just got back from skiing 6 full straight days in Breck and left feeling super fresh on my feet.
i did also try on the mindbender and personally I couldn’t tell a difference in store with the shell fit compared to the recon. The boa liner felt different but the same if that makes sense. It felt more secure but basically like any other top notch liner I guess as it should.
Between either one you’re going to be very happy assuming you were fit properly.
How would you recommend making the hawx ultra xtd feel more progressive? I find that the flex can feel very linear rather than progressive? I am considering replacing the strap with a booster strap, that gnar bar seems quite nice too, also definitely need to put a new liner in my boots (which is an intuition pro wrap). Is there anything else you could recommend?
macfiveHow would you recommend making the hawx ultra xtd feel more progressive? I find that the flex can feel very linear rather than progressive? I am considering replacing the strap with a booster strap, that gnar bar seems quite nice too, also definitely need to put a new liner in my boots (which is an intuition pro wrap). Is there anything else you could recommend?
Can you expand on what you mean by more progressive? You want the boot to get stiffer the deeper you flex into it?
Do you have a gen 1 Ultra XTD or the new gen 2? If you have a gen 1 and are over-flexing the boot, there's not much you can do since the lower shell is collapsing. You'd need to get a super stiff liner that gave the shell more integrity, usually a stiff Intuition or foam injected liner will do that.
If you have a gen 2, you can do the same. A Gnar Bar will help, but if you are truly over-flexing a boot, then there is little to do other than get a stiff, burly liner in the shell.
In general, a Booster strap won't make a boot stiffer. Booster straps actually make the flex softer; they keep things snug & tight in the cuff but allow for more give.
onenerdykidCan you expand on what you mean by more progressive? You want the boot to get stiffer the deeper you flex into it?
Do you have a gen 1 Ultra XTD or the new gen 2? If you have a gen 1 and are over-flexing the boot, there's not much you can do since the lower shell is collapsing. You'd need to get a super stiff liner that gave the shell more integrity, usually a stiff Intuition or foam injected liner will do that.
If you have a gen 2, you can do the same. A Gnar Bar will help, but if you are truly over-flexing a boot, then there is little to do other than get a stiff, burly liner in the shell.
In general, a Booster strap won't make a boot stiffer. Booster straps actually make the flex softer; they keep things snug & tight in the cuff but allow for more give.
Yeah I want the boot to get stiffer the deeper I flex into it.
I have the 2022 black and tan hawx ultra xtd 130, so I think that is a gen 1. I need to replace my liner so that will help things regardless.
As for booster straps so I understand how they work, they make the boot softer, but since they are elastic they make the flex of the boot become stiffer as the boot is flexed. Compared to the strap that is on the boot which does not have elasticity so it does not have as much give as a booster.
Also can I put a gnar bar on the boots I have, or does that only work for the gen 2?
macfiveYeah I want the boot to get stiffer the deeper I flex into it.
I have the 2022 black and tan hawx ultra xtd 130, so I think that is a gen 1. I need to replace my liner so that will help things regardless.
As for booster straps so I understand how they work, they make the boot softer, but since they are elastic they make the flex of the boot become stiffer as the boot is flexed. Compared to the strap that is on the boot which does not have elasticity so it does not have as much give as a booster.
Also can I put a gnar bar on the boots I have, or does that only work for the gen 2?
So with this boot, the only way to make it more supportive and prevent it from collapsing is to get a more beefy liner inside the shell to give it more stability.
Putting anything on the cuff, like a Gnar Bar (which is unfortunately not compatible with that generation of boot anyway) or a Booster strap, does not prevent the lower shell from collapsing.
Preventing the lower shell from collapsing is the cause/effect pattern you need to address.
onenerdykidSo with this boot, the only way to make it more supportive and prevent it from collapsing is to get a more beefy liner inside the shell to give it more stability.
Putting anything on the cuff, like a Gnar Bar (which is unfortunately not compatible with that generation of boot anyway) or a Booster strap, does not prevent the lower shell from collapsing.
Preventing the lower shell from collapsing is the cause/effect pattern you need to address.
Is this the kind of situation where a zip fit makes the most sense?
PartyBullshiitIs this the kind of situation where a zip fit makes the most sense?
In that situation you are really looking to fill the shell with a stiffer liner so probably the best bet is a foam injection liner which will fill the space really well.
tomPietrowskiIn that situation you are really looking to fill the shell with a stiffer liner so probably the best bet is a foam injection liner which will fill the space really well.
PartyBullshiitCork is too soft for the stiffness needed?
More so their capacity for cork to be added. You can snug the heel up but you won’t be able to fill empty space in the same way a foam injection liner can.
PartyBullshiitJust to add to your thread. I just got the recon 130 boa and couldn’t be happier. One thing to note since you’re consider the boa version. K2 designed the new boa version shells from the ground up as a boa shell. They didn’t just add boa to their buckle boot. I also tried on the atomics and they were extremely appealing to me performance wise.
I chose the k2 because it truly fit me better. If the atomic had fit better that’s what I would have bought. Either are great boots but neither will matter if it’s not the right shape for your foot. I was over all too tight in the atomic. Especially in my heel. Which you cannot make that area bigger.
the k2 heel is tight but not painful for me personally. I just got back from skiing 6 full straight days in Breck and left feeling super fresh on my feet.
i did also try on the mindbender and personally I couldn’t tell a difference in store with the shell fit compared to the recon. The boa liner felt different but the same if that makes sense. It felt more secure but basically like any other top notch liner I guess as it should.
Between either one you’re going to be very happy assuming you were fit properly.
yup yea both seem to fit my feet, but the atomically are a bit tighter and not as comfortable as the k2’s are. not sure how good my boot fitter is tho, so i’m gonna wait for a second opinion when i head out west in a few days, but current boot fitter says either one works
iDontHitRailsAtomics ski well but are a pain in the ass. K2 boots are a desperate grasp for more money and look cool but fall apart
honestly i’m fine with boots being a pain in the ass to get on/off, i more so only care abt the skiing aspect lol. tho i have seen issues with k2 boots online, but none of my friends have had any durability issues so not too sure ig lol
okrdokrrhonestly i’m fine with boots being a pain in the ass to get on/off, i more so only care abt the skiing aspect lol. tho i have seen issues with k2 boots online, but none of my friends have had any durability issues so not too sure ig lol
If you are looking you will see basically every boot breaking at some point. I will say we had some initial issues with shells a few years back but the new boa shell is our most durable and highest performance yet.
tomPietrowskiIf you are looking you will see basically every boot breaking at some point. I will say we had some initial issues with shells a few years back but the new boa shell is our most durable and highest performance yet.
alr thats good to hear then !
think the current thing is that the mindbenders fit perfectly, but im worried the liners'll pack out and then things won't be so perfect whereas the atomics are tighter almost everywhere, and not as perfect fit, but the bootfitter said they can work with it. i will be getting a second opinion on the hawx ultras tho. gonna be headed to breck in a week and heard a racers edge was amazing with bootfittings and they stock atomic but not k2. gonna go there and see what their opinion on the hawx ultras are, and if i should go with the hawx ultras or if it won't work.
think the current thing is that the mindbenders fit perfectly, but im worried the liners'll pack out and then things won't be so perfect whereas the atomics are tighter almost everywhere, and not as perfect fit, but the bootfitter said they can work with it. i will be getting a second opinion on the hawx ultras tho. gonna be headed to breck in a week and heard a racers edge was amazing with bootfittings and they stock atomic but not k2. gonna go there and see what their opinion on the hawx ultras are, and if i should go with the hawx ultras or if it won't work.
Well if they stock one boot and not the other my guess would be they will advise the boot they stock :) but as I said above they are both great boots and I’m sure you will be stoked with either.
think the current thing is that the mindbenders fit perfectly, but im worried the liners'll pack out and then things won't be so perfect whereas the atomics are tighter almost everywhere, and not as perfect fit, but the bootfitter said they can work with it. i will be getting a second opinion on the hawx ultras tho. gonna be headed to breck in a week and heard a racers edge was amazing with bootfittings and they stock atomic but not k2. gonna go there and see what their opinion on the hawx ultras are, and if i should go with the hawx ultras or if it won't work.
If you can make it to evo Denver they had both in stock when I was this month.
tomPietrowskiWell if they stock one boot and not the other my guess would be they will advise the boot they stock :) but as I said above they are both great boots and I’m sure you will be stoked with either.
well yea that makes sense, but i was going to js see if the hawx do actually work for my feet, and i’ll probably pick up a mindbenders and bring it along, and if the mindbenders fit better i’ll probably be getting bootwork done there
I reeeeeally wish you could buy boots without the liner.
Those of us that use our own liners end up wasting a lot on liners and I have like 3 sets of unused premium factory liners sitting in my garage eroding.
okrdokrrso went to a boot fitter a few days ago, got fit into a mindbender 130 boa’s and boot fitter said they’d work without needing much boot work, but i was also interested in the hawx ultra xtd boa’s. he brought those out, and they also fit decently, but he said they would need some more boot work, but either boot would work.
js tryna decide between the two, and if anyone’s tried both of them, any significant difference between them? they’re probably gonna be used like 70/30 resort/bc add mainly focused on the downhill aspect, so weight isn’t a concern. any info would be great honestly, and if @onenerdykid or @tomPietrowski could comment on the more intricate details between the two, that’d be nice.
@onenerdykid Are you guys preparing to release Hawx Prime BOAs or Magna BOAs anytime soon? Can you explain how these are designed specifically for different volume feet vs how the Mindbenders seem to be taking an all-in-one approach?
onenerdykidFirst things first: get the boot that fits you best. There are differences in fit between the two, the Atomic being lower volume, especially in the rear foot (ankle & heel).
I'll give you a rundown on the Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD, just the facts about it and you can come to your own conclusions.
This is a boot that is purpose built as a one-boot quiver for both resort use and touring, but the current 23/24 version is much better suited as a resort boot that can go touring when you want to.
We use a heat-moldable PU shell and a PU cuff. PU (polyurethane) is what is used in dedicated alpine/resort boots because it is more damp, more progressive, more durable, and better for boot fitting. When you want to use a boot in the resort, you want this material. It does add some weight, but the other benefits it brings when skiing the resort are more important than a few grams for the occasional touring this user tends to do.
With our PU, the boot is also completely heat-moldable, so if you need extra space created, this boot easily adapts to your foot shape during the boot fitting session.
Our liner is made with and from the same materials that we use in the regular, fixed-cuff Hawx Ultra. It's heavier but also built with foot hold, downhill performance, and longevity in mind. We used to make the liner much lighter, but enough people complained that it didn't have the foot hold or skiing performance of their regular Hawx Ultra. Well, now it is literally the same as the regular Hawx Ultra liner but with an Achilles flex zone for touring. Again, made for the resort but optimized for touring too.
The liner also has a special material inside it that we call Mimic. Mimic is not a heat-moldable foam but instead a heat-moldable plastic (what creates that special ankle shape of the liner). Mimic is given a pre-shape to fit a lot of people, but when it is heated in our oven, it becomes totally moldable, fully shapes to your anatomy, and hardens in that shape for forever (or until you remold it again). For a "stock" liner, this is a pretty baller technology. Below is what the liner looks like after heated and squishing the ankle with my hand- it took the impression of my fingers and has stayed that way for over 4 years now. I still use this liner in my clinics.
We also make an aftermarket accessory called the Gnar Bar, which is a solid piece of metal that replaces your ski/walk mechanism for added stiffness, responsiveness, and stability. All ski/walk mechanisms have a little play in them, which you can sometimes feel. They don't inadvertently pop open, but you can feel this play. When you know you'll be skiing in the resort for a while, just unscrew the ski/walk mech and put the Gnar Bar on instead. This allows you to turn your hybrid boot into a fixed-cuff boot and squeeze out every ounce of performance for those resort days. And when it comes time to do a big touring day, just unscrew the Gnar Bar and swap back to the ski/walk mechanism. It's like having 2 boots in 1.
