BOA Boots - Any and All Questions

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

Yukon_CorneliusFrom non-ski experience, it’s pretty difficult to apply enough force on a dial to really sinch down a boa system and provide the same tightness I would expect from a buckle. Is this somehow mitigated or addressed in the new boot system?

Yeah this is a good question. From the very start of BOA getting involved in alpine it was cear the existing systems would not be sufficent for plastic ski boots. For this reason they decided very early on that a whole new system would be developed just for ski boots. This system is H+

The graphic above shows the levels BOA offer for differnt products, you can think of them this way:

L = low force

M = Medium force

H = High force

H+ = Highest force

To Achieve this higher force from the system a number of changes were made. All internal gearing is new and is produced from metal meaning the system can pull forces far in excess of any of the other systems. The gearing is also optimized so that the input on the dial is very small compared the the force it pulls.

Along with the new gearing the dial is bigger than anything else they have used which means its easier to get hold of and turn. Some people may find it slightly harder to turn when its wet so at K2 we are developing some improvements to the dial which you will see on future boots.

The placement of the dial also has an impact and careful consideration was put into finding the best combination of ease of use and also optimal placement for closure

The final factor is the way in which the system closes the boot. Unlike a buckle where all the closure happens when you push the buckle down with BOA the boot closures incrementally so the force required is far lower to get to the same tightness. It does take slightly longer but it is far easier and also easier to dial in the correct pressure.

Sep 14 2023 3:18PM

18 0

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

BLandzWhats the pros/cons list of a boa boot

Who are the BOA boots good for? Like are they so dope that they’re going to change ski boots forever or is it more along the lines of like a full tilt cable system where its not game breaking, just a different approach

The biggest advances are a better fit and better ski performance. The only real disadvantages are they are slightly slower to close and they cost slightly more than buckles.

The better fit is achieved from the ability for brands to design boots which better wrap the foot. One of the big disadvantages of buckles is most of the force is applied directly under the buckle which especially for people with high insteps can be a real problem. The two buckle design also makes it hard for the boot to close evenly around the foot.

In comparison BOA allows us to build a boot which better wraps the whole foot. Through our testing we found a BOA shell can reduce in volume 14% compared to only 5% on a buckle boot. This additional volume reduction also allows for a far greater range of feet to fit in one shell. BOA wont make a bad boot fit but it will make an ok fitting boot fit better for a lot more people than if it had buckles.

In testing it has been found that peak pressure (hotspots) on the foot is reduced by 13% and the overall foot wrap is improved by 10%. This testing was done with an identical shell and liner and the only change was using BOA or buckles.

It is this improvement of how well the lower shell fits that allows the boots to also perform better. To get the optimal performance out of a ski boot the lower shell needs to match the foot as closely as possible. Any space between the shell and foot will result in the lower shell collapsing or deforming more than intended. So by having a better fit and wrap we can ensure the boots perform as we design them too.

In testing it has been found that a BOA boot allowed skiers to put an additional 4-6% force through the ski. This could be pushing through a carved turn or pushing off the lip of a jump or wall of the pipe. BOA also allowed skiers to initiate force 10% quicker. Again this could mean a 10% improvement in popping off a jump. As above the testing was done in identical shell and liner and the only change was the BOA system.

So a BOA boot compared to the same boot with buckles will fit better and ski better which is pretty much going to mean its better for anyone. For this reason I really don't see a scenario where BOA will not replace buckles. Now something else may be found to work even better than BOA but at this time we have not found or seen anything. All of our athletes are changing to BOA boots unless they wear FL3X boots as currently there is not a 3 piece boot solution.

Sep 14 2023 3:31PM

13 0

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

MainahWhy are the boa dials only on the lower piece of the boot and not also on the cuff? I am assuming a boa on the cuff would have to be a lot beefier than the ones over the foot...

How does the weight of the boa system compare with the weight of traditional buckles?

I (like a lot of people on NS) swear by a 3-piece boot. Has a 3-piece boot with boas been tried?

BOA decided to introduce the system on the lower shell for a number of reasons. The big ones were it is very easy for customers to feel the difference in closure on the lower shell and most boot issues are found on the lower shell so fixing these issues will have a big benefit for a lot of skiers.

It also turned out to be much easier to implement on the lower shell. As you mentioned the forces on the cuff are far greater so developing a solution for the cuff is not as straight forward. For reference the lower shell development began in 2015 and is only coming to market in 2023, so even getting a solution for the lower shell was not quick and easy.

Will you see it on the upper cuff soon, I would guess yes but watch this space.

The weight of the system compared to buckles will depend upon the buckles it is replacing. If a boot previously used very light weight buckles then adding BOA will be a bigger impact than if a boot used heavier buckles. But the overall weight will be slightly higher with BOA but its generally going to be in the 50g range so very small compared to the overall boot.

3 piece is an interesting one. Currently there is not a solution for 3 piece boots. There will be one eventually but at this time BOA are focused on overlap boots as Overlap boot sales make up 95% of the ski boot market.

Sep 14 2023 3:47PM

10 0

Posts: 4126 - Karma: 18,066

Karma: 18,066

Posts: 4126

No Life

How much impact does the dial area have in boot fitting?

Sep 14 2023 5:31PM

1 2

Farmville420

Posts: 4817 - Karma: 61,948

Karma: 61,948

Posts: 4817

No Life

What's boa?

Sep 14 2023 5:37PM

5 0

Posts: 4126 - Karma: 18,066

Karma: 18,066

Posts: 4126

No Life

Farmville420What's boa?

Boats on arrival.

Sep 14 2023 5:50PM

11 2

partyandBS

Posts: 4851 - Karma: 74,856

Karma: 74,856

Posts: 4851

No Life

get full tilts

🥲

Sep 14 2023 6:28PM

15 0

polmei

Posts: 410 - Karma: 1,463

Karma: 1,463

Posts: 410

Ridiculous

Farmville420What's boa?

boobs over age

Sep 14 2023 6:32PM

5 0

BigPurpleSkiSuit

Posts: 9417 - Karma: 69,071

Karma: 69,071

Posts: 9417

Crazy Fool

biggest question: Durability. I can see how a BOA system would help get a better fit generally, but my big concern is what happens if a part breaks, or how often has that happened? Before it was pretty easy to get replacement buckles, how easy is it to get a replacement BOA system, and then install that.

Sep 14 2023 6:43PM

11 0

Posts: 4126 - Karma: 18,066

Karma: 18,066

Posts: 4126

No Life

BigPurpleSkiSuitbiggest question: Durability. I can see how a BOA system would help get a better fit generally, but my big concern is what happens if a part breaks, or how often has that happened? Before it was pretty easy to get replacement buckles, how easy is it to get a replacement BOA system, and then install that.

My understanding by what’s been put out is the parts are completely free from boa and are able to be installed at home. You can have kits on hand for a worst case.

Sep 14 2023 6:44PM

2 2

brownetown

Posts: 441 - Karma: 4,350

Karma: 4,350

Posts: 441

Ridiculous

Admittedly my only experience with BOA comes from talking to snowboarder homies, but I do have some skepticism because I’ve heard of the boa system breaking and the wire unraveling. How would the longevity of the ski boot boa compare? Besides replacing broken buckles, I don’t really have to worry about my buckles going bad over time - how long would this system generally last before needing a replacement / tune?

Sep 14 2023 6:55PM

2 0

nmwninjart

Posts: 3020 - Karma: 15,259

Karma: 15,259

Posts: 3020

Addict

Would people with really wide feet now have more variety of boots that would fit with these boa?
What kind of foot shape would be good/bad for this design?

Sep 14 2023 7:36PM

1 0

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

BigPurpleSkiSuitbiggest question: Durability. I can see how a BOA system would help get a better fit generally, but my big concern is what happens if a part breaks, or how often has that happened? Before it was pretty easy to get replacement buckles, how easy is it to get a replacement BOA system, and then install that.

This is a fair question and also one of the questions we asked at the very start. It was realized straight away that the existing systems would not work in an alpine ski boot and this was why the new H+ system was designed. The cable its self is actually made up from 19 strands of stainless steel wrapped together. It can hold over 254kg, which means it could hold up a gondola cabin. The Dial has been fully tested by 53 field testers directly from BOA and hundreds more from the brands involved. The whole system has over 50,000 hours of design and testing in it already before it even hit the market.

From personal experience I can say we have had no issues with any K2 boot we have had since testing began in 2020. Im still using my very first pair of prototype boots to this day.

But of course there will always be problems and BOA have designed the system to be really user friendly. All parts are screwed on rather than riveted, something anyone who has had to grind out buckle rivets will appreciate. The dial is held onto the boot with a plastic bayonet which screws to the shell so the dial is not directly connected to the shell, meaning if someone has a huge crash and the dial got damaged they would not have to replace the shell but only the components.

The dial itself is designed to pop off if it encounters a large enough force which could damage it. It will still be attached to the boot via the cable and all you need do it push it back on which is really easy. So unlike buckle which can bend or even snap its pretty unlikely you will damage this system to the point it fails.

But if you do all BOA components are available free of charge from retailers or from BOA directly. All brands will use the same components so getting hold of parts will be super easy. You can even get spare parts even if you have not broken a part so you can have parts on hand just in case.

Sep 14 2023 8:37PM

14 0

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

nmwninjartWould people with really wide feet now have more variety of boots that would fit with these boa?
What kind of foot shape would be good/bad for this design?

Yes one of the best aspects of the BOA system is how many more feet we can get to fit in one shell. The increased volume reduction allows the boots to fit a far better range than our buckle boots and the boots can still be heat molded meaning expanding the boots to fit big feet is still possible.

The main limitation is you can not make the heel area smaller meaning there will still be a need for different volume BOA shells but the range of feet which each shell fits is far bigger meaning shops should be able to fit more people with less inventory.

Sep 14 2023 8:40PM

5 0

Non_State_Actor

Posts: 4899 - Karma: 17,487

Karma: 17,487

Posts: 4899

No Life

BigPurpleSkiSuitbiggest question: Durability. I can see how a BOA system would help get a better fit generally, but my big concern is what happens if a part breaks, or how often has that happened? Before it was pretty easy to get replacement buckles, how easy is it to get a replacement BOA system, and then install that.

I can also get down the mountain with a broken buckle.

Sep 14 2023 9:37PM

2 0

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

PartyBullshiitHow much impact does the dial area have in boot fitting?

Good question. Really the way in which the boots are fit has not really changed. If someone needs a punch doing it would be done in the same manner. The only real change is the area around the dial can not be reshaped too much. Under the dial is a plastic bayonet, basically this it the quick release plate which fits between the shell and the dial which allows the dial to pop off and not damage the shell.

This bayonet needs to sit correctly on the shell so that the dial can fit so fitters need to be a little careful around this area, but with it being on the outside of the foot just below the instep its an area which does not often need any work doing.

The boots are still fully heat moldable, the whole boa system can be heated in the oven and no damage will occur. The medial guides can also be unscrewed if the whole lower shell needs to be opened for grinding or punching.

For the most part anything a fitter can do to buckle boots they can do to BOA boots but chances are they will not need to do as much thanks to the greatly improved fit.

Sep 15 2023 12:55PM

2 0

partyandBS

Posts: 4851 - Karma: 74,856

Karma: 74,856

Posts: 4851

No Life

tomPietrowskiThis is a fair question and also one of the questions we asked at the very start. It was realized straight away that the existing systems would not work in an alpine ski boot and this was why the new H+ system was designed. The cable its self is actually made up from 19 strands of stainless steel wrapped together. It can hold over 254kg, which means it could hold up a gondola cabin. The Dial has been fully tested by 53 field testers directly from BOA and hundreds more from the brands involved. The whole system has over 50,000 hours of design and testing in it already before it even hit the market.

From personal experience I can say we have had no issues with any K2 boot we have had since testing began in 2020. Im still using my very first pair of prototype boots to this day.

But of course there will always be problems and BOA have designed the system to be really user friendly. All parts are screwed on rather than riveted, something anyone who has had to grind out buckle rivets will appreciate. The dial is held onto the boot with a plastic bayonet which screws to the shell so the dial is not directly connected to the shell, meaning if someone has a huge crash and the dial got damaged they would not have to replace the shell but only the components.

The dial itself is designed to pop off if it encounters a large enough force which could damage it. It will still be attached to the boot via the cable and all you need do it push it back on which is really easy. So unlike buckle which can bend or even snap its pretty unlikely you will damage this system to the point it fails.

But if you do all BOA components are available free of charge from retailers or from BOA directly. All brands will use the same components so getting hold of parts will be super easy. You can even get spare parts even if you have not broken a part so you can have parts on hand just in case.

is there a park specific boa boot in the works?? how much impact can that dial take? pretty rare but i certainly have hit the side of my boot on some features.

also above it said 95% of boots sold were not 3-piece. that’s gotta be embellished right? maybe the markets i participate are unique but in CO you certainly see more than 5% of people wearing ft/k2 flex. i dont see how you would pull the tongue all the way forward with a boa unless the boa was on the tongue itself and you hooked the cable manually each time. honestly that would be dope and lighter than 4 buckles i would imagine

Sep 15 2023 1:37PM

2 2

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

partyandBSis there a park specific boa boot in the works?? how much impact can that dial take? pretty rare but i certainly have hit the side of my boot on some features.

also above it said 95% of boots sold were not 3-piece. that’s gotta be embellished right? maybe the markets i participate are unique but in CO you certainly see more than 5% of people wearing ft/k2 flex. i dont see how you would pull the tongue all the way forward with a boa unless the boa was on the tongue itself and you hooked the cable manually each time. honestly that would be dope and lighter than 4 buckles i would imagine

All our park athletes will be using the recon or anthem and some are even moving into our new high volume BOA boots we have in the works. The system will work just as well in the park as anywhere else. Position wise we have had no issues with the dial getting damaged.

I was actually being generous by saying 5% of boot sales are 3 piece. The actual figure is closer to 3% which represents less than 100,000 boots a season. Certain markets, such as the one you mentioned, will certainly be higher but the overall 3 piece market is tiny sadly.

As for how BOA would work on a 3 piece boot I actually think you are on the correct train of thought by saying the BOA dial could be mounted to the tongue. 3 Piece boots actually share quite a bit with how snowboard boots close and snowboard boots make extensive use of the dial on the front of the shin. But as I said, at this time, no solution exists unfortunately.

Sep 15 2023 2:05PM

4 0

Posts: 4126 - Karma: 18,066

Karma: 18,066

Posts: 4126

No Life

How long do you estimate it will take before you’ll eventually phase out buckles all together? Bringing the boa boots closer in line price wise with buckle boots? Basically when will the premium bump for boa cost wise die off.

Sep 15 2023 2:50PM

4 1

Non_State_Actor

Posts: 4899 - Karma: 17,487

Karma: 17,487

Posts: 4899

No Life

PartyBullshiitHow long do you estimate it will take before you’ll eventually phase out buckles all together? Bringing the boa boots closer in line price wise with buckle boots? Basically when will the premium bump for boa cost wise die off.

They still have running shoes and hiking boots with traditional laces right? Boa have been around on those for nearly 20 years and they haven't replaced laces and other closures entirely.

Sep 15 2023 5:15PM

0 1

hoodratz47

Posts: 12021 - Karma: 9,503

Karma: 9,503

Posts: 12021

Crazy Fool

How do you prevent the edge of the ski snapping the cable

Sep 15 2023 5:40PM

3 0

Posts: 4126 - Karma: 18,066

Karma: 18,066

Posts: 4126

No Life

Non_State_ActorThey still have running shoes and hiking boots with traditional laces right? Boa have been around on those for nearly 20 years and they haven't replaced laces and other closures entirely.

Correct. But boa isn’t considered across the board better than laces for shoes. In fact in most cases boa is not better on a shoe.

where as these companies are essentially saying boa is far better than buckles and other than for people clinging to the past for buckles boa would be the standard for the future. As the pros far outweigh the cons.

Sep 15 2023 5:46PM

2 1

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

PartyBullshiitHow long do you estimate it will take before you’ll eventually phase out buckles all together? Bringing the boa boots closer in line price wise with buckle boots? Basically when will the premium bump for boa cost wise die off.

Great question. There will be a number of challenges and it mainly comes down to price. Currently the BOA system we purchase from BOA for all boots cost roughly 3 times as much as the buckles it replaces. Secondly unlike the buckles we produce we are restricted to paying the part cost asked by BOA. What I mean by this is with our own buckles we can develop cheaper options for low cost boots. Currently with BOA there is only one option available so the price is the price.

This will limit to some extent which models will see BOA. I struggle to see how the $199 boots will ever get official BOA components but I think this is really the only boots you wont see make the change.

As BOA grows in units the price hopefully will come down and we are already extending our $499 BOA boot offerings in F24 but boots below $349 I cant really see getting official BOA components any time soon.

Sep 15 2023 5:57PM

3 0

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

hoodratz47How do you prevent the edge of the ski snapping the cable

There are a number of ways. The cable its self is made up of 19 strands of stainless steel woven together. This gives the cable a pull strength of 254Kg. Its also really hard to cut. You cant just use sheers for example. When we were building prototypes we had to buy an industrial cable cutter to build boots. Ski edges will not be cutting these cables.

But along with the cable its self is the placement. BOA were very careful not to have the cable in any place it could easily contact a ski edge. If you look at a BOA shell you will see the medial guides (inside of the boot) extend quite a ways but the cable only runs through the top. This was done intentionally to keep the cable away from edges.

In over 3 years of testing we are yet to have a cable as much as fray let alone break.

Sep 15 2023 6:01PM

4 0

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

PartyBullshiitCorrect. But boa isn’t considered across the board better than laces for shoes. In fact in most cases boa is not better on a shoe.

where as these companies are essentially saying boa is far better than buckles and other than for people clinging to the past for buckles boa would be the standard for the future. As the pros far outweigh the cons.

Could not agree more!

Sep 15 2023 6:01PM

2 0

Non_State_Actor

Posts: 4899 - Karma: 17,487

Karma: 17,487

Posts: 4899

No Life

PartyBullshiitCorrect. But boa isn’t considered across the board better than laces for shoes. In fact in most cases boa is not better on a shoe.

where as these companies are essentially saying boa is far better than buckles and other than for people clinging to the past for buckles boa would be the standard for the future. As the pros far outweigh the cons.

It's the same as the shoe marketing copy from the early 2000s. Whether it's better for all applications in ski boots will be determined over the next decade or longer I think, but we'll see.

Sep 15 2023 7:28PM

0 0

Posts: 4126 - Karma: 18,066

Karma: 18,066

Posts: 4126

No Life

Non_State_ActorIt's the same as the shoe marketing copy from the early 2000s. Whether it's better for all applications in ski boots will be determined over the next decade or longer I think, but we'll see.

The difference is you didn’t have shoe companies saying boa was better across the board. They were using it for certain applications. Where it made sense.

here you have most industry leaders saying boa is better across the board. Buckles are inferior to them at this point, and that’s only the brands who got in on year one. Next seasons drops will have more brands with boa.

this isn’t just tossing any old boa into a shoe. Which is why in a lot of applications it absolutely sucks in a shoe/boot it wasn’t really designed around.

you are correct, time will tell and the market will speak, but if they perform as claimed, have all the benefits as claimed, are as durable and as easily worked on as claimed. Then the writing is already on the wall for buckles.

Sep 15 2023 7:44PM

4 2

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

PartyBullshiitThe difference is you didn’t have shoe companies saying boa was better across the board. They were using it for certain applications. Where it made sense.

here you have most industry leaders saying boa is better across the board. Buckles are inferior to them at this point, and that’s only the brands who got in on year one. Next seasons drops will have more brands with boa.

this isn’t just tossing any old boa into a shoe. Which is why in a lot of applications it absolutely sucks in a shoe/boot it wasn’t really designed around.

you are correct, time will tell and the market will speak, but if they perform as claimed, have all the benefits as claimed, are as durable and as easily worked on as claimed. Then the writing is already on the wall for buckles.

I think this will very likely be exactly what happens. I’m already hearing about other brands being very aggressive with their pricing next season so I would expect you will see BOA literally everywhere.

Sep 16 2023 11:51AM

3 0

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

Who has had chance to try the boots on so far? I keep seeing lots of posts from shops with BOA boots in stock now.

Sep 18 2023 11:23AM

0 0

Posts: 4126 - Karma: 18,066

Karma: 18,066

Posts: 4126

No Life

tomPietrowskiWho has had chance to try the boots on so far? I keep seeing lots of posts from shops with BOA boots in stock now.

I’m hoping to give a pair a try at Tahoe in dec.

Sep 18 2023 2:46PM

2 1

jps2.0

Posts: 477 - Karma: 2,407

Karma: 2,407

Posts: 477

Ridiculous

has there been problems booting out on boa boots?,especially the k2 recon boot. I saw a pair in person and it seems like it would drag compared to the fischer boot

Sep 19 2023 8:42PM

0 0

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

jps2.0has there been problems booting out on boa boots?,especially the k2 recon boot. I saw a pair in person and it seems like it would drag compared to the fischer boot

We have not seen any issues no. In fact the boot out angle is greater on a boa shell then our buckle boots as the buckles sit lower. We built up the shell quite a bit round the dial too to work as a deflector and so far we have seen no issues.

Sep 19 2023 9:08PM

5 0

Brule.

Posts: 3941 - Karma: 6,306

Karma: 6,306

Posts: 3941

Addict

tomPietrowskiWho has had chance to try the boots on so far? I keep seeing lots of posts from shops with BOA boots in stock now.

I managed to slide my foot into a Salomon S-Pro Supra 120 BOA when we got them in stock at the shop I work at. It’s really nice for having the ability to micro adjust the boot “buckle” as you go, and it’s so much easier to pop the dial and let the toes breathe on the lift than fumbling with metal buckles. I’m dying to try more bc I’m sold on the concept, but from the perspective of a new-ish bootfitter, I’m curious as to what problems people are going to have in those boots in terms of fit, and I’m also curious as to what kind of skier will end up being attracted to the new BOA system in general.

I really do applaud you for making this thread, as this has answered a lot of personal questions I have had. Also there’s a lot of useful information in here that I can share with customers in order to answer their concerns directly in a shop setting.

Sep 20 2023 9:33AM

4 0

partyandBS

Posts: 4851 - Karma: 74,856

Karma: 74,856

Posts: 4851

No Life

were there any prototypes done where the cable is threaded through the boot and goes fully around the foot? idk how you would make the cable route but my thought is kinda like brake lines through bike tubes. you could really sink the heel back. or is that already what’s going on here? lol

Sep 20 2023 10:24AM

0 0

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

Brule.I managed to slide my foot into a Salomon S-Pro Supra 120 BOA when we got them in stock at the shop I work at. It’s really nice for having the ability to micro adjust the boot “buckle” as you go, and it’s so much easier to pop the dial and let the toes breathe on the lift than fumbling with metal buckles. I’m dying to try more bc I’m sold on the concept, but from the perspective of a new-ish bootfitter, I’m curious as to what problems people are going to have in those boots in terms of fit, and I’m also curious as to what kind of skier will end up being attracted to the new BOA system in general.

I really do applaud you for making this thread, as this has answered a lot of personal questions I have had. Also there’s a lot of useful information in here that I can share with customers in order to answer their concerns directly in a shop setting.

I think rather than thinking what problems people may have first think of issues this system will help with.

The image above shows pressure distribution on the top of the foot in a BOA boot and below a buckle boot. Anywhere the image goes more yellow is showing irregular pressure distribution. In a perfect fitting boot you want the pressure the same all over the foot so the foot is being held evenly and you can see this happens much more in the BOA boot. The issue with the buckle boot is the buckles are exerting a disproportionate amount of force directly under the buckles and not spreading the force out evenly. Any one with a high instep will know this feeling when tightening the instep buckle.

So the take away here is that the improved wrap will give a better overall feel to the lower foot in the boot. By far the most common issue in ski boots is a lower shell which is either too big or has hot spots. BOA is going to help in both these scenarios. No it wont make a huge shell magically fit but it will make a shell just slightly too big fit far better than buckles can hope to do. We have found many more people can ski our BOA boots with little to no work compared to our buckle shells and we did not change anything to do with the last shape, the BOA just makes the boots conform and fit to the foot better.

This improved fit also helps the boots ski better as I already mentioned above so to your point of who BOA is for really its for anyone who wants a boot to fit and ski better which lets be honest is all skiers.

And I'm glad this is useful. I have given a few talks on how BOA will help recently and I do hope what I have learned about the system over the past 4 years can help more people enjoy their skiing even more. I truly believe in this system and I'm excited for the benefits people are going to get from it. If I can build boots which help more people enjoy skiing Ill be happy.

Sep 20 2023 11:45AM

5 0

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

partyandBSwere there any prototypes done where the cable is threaded through the boot and goes fully around the foot? idk how you would make the cable route but my thought is kinda like brake lines through bike tubes. you could really sink the heel back. or is that already what’s going on here? lol

Great question and I pushed for exactly this. Early on I was pushing BOA to get more radical with the design. Im a strong beliver in change and just because boots have been built one way does not mean its the best. As a boot fitter I was constantly adapting boots to make them work better. I really believe BOA can change both how a boot functions and also looks and we are already half way there with what we have coming for the 2025/26 season. But we can for sure go further.

The reason BOA did not want to go too extreme initially does make sense though. BOA is already a big change, just look at all the debate about it already. BOA decided to attempt to mitigate how big a change it was going to be they wanted the system to largely resemble what people are used to with buckles. If you look at the system the two inner guides basically replace the buckle racks so people are at least familiar with the look. I do understand why they did it but I'm always pushing for what's next.

I don't want to see the cable I want it all integrated like you see on snowboard. It will for sure make the shells more complex but it could also offer some completely new ways of how boots work. There is so much to come with this system and that's part of what Im so excited about.

Below is the evolution of the BOA system and how we integrated it into our boots.

Sep 20 2023 11:54AM

6 0

Posts: 4126 - Karma: 18,066

Karma: 18,066

Posts: 4126

No Life

Great video showing the system.

https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/1076719/How-to-Repair-your-Ski-Boot-BOA-System--H-i1-

Sep 24 2023 3:28AM

3 1

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

So I am hearing BOA boots have become the new Full Tilts at retail. Whereas it used to be people would ask if a shop sold Full Tilt and if they didn't they would walk out I'm hearing this is actually happening for BOA boots now. Pretty stocked to be still the brand to make people walk out :)

Sep 27 2023 10:32AM

8 0

deelonmusk

Posts: 234 - Karma: 1,414

Karma: 1,414

Posts: 234

Loner

BOA Alpine boots are legit. Have tested several pairs and it’s truly a better system than buckles.

Oct 2 2023 5:42PM

2 0

Posts: 113 - Karma: -87

Karma: -87

Posts: 113

Pro

We all know BOA is a proven way to close a shoe, boot, snowboard boot etc, no questions there. I’ll have a BOA on the right and a buckle on the left and my customer will ask why should I spend $125 more to go with BOA? I tell them ease of use, less force needed to close the shell, etc. it’s hard to say there’s a performance gain. I can say it takes less energy to close, but a foot can only handle so much compression before it fatigues. How that compression is achieved doesn’t really matter?

BOA has obviously put a lot of $$ into this tech. Do they have any oversight of the boot design?

At this point I have customers walking in looking at the wall and asking for see what boots work, they are not asking for BOA at all, they just want to get the right boot for their foot. You mentioned BOA being the new full tilt. Where is that coming from?

Oct 6 2023 1:52PM

0 0

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

sicbithWe all know BOA is a proven way to close a shoe, boot, snowboard boot etc, no questions there. I’ll have a BOA on the right and a buckle on the left and my customer will ask why should I spend $125 more to go with BOA? I tell them ease of use, less force needed to close the shell, etc. it’s hard to say there’s a performance gain. I can say it takes less energy to close, but a foot can only handle so much compression before it fatigues. How that compression is achieved doesn’t really matter?

BOA has obviously put a lot of $$ into this tech. Do they have any oversight of the boot design?

At this point I have customers walking in looking at the wall and asking for see what boots work, they are not asking for BOA at all, they just want to get the right boot for their foot. You mentioned BOA being the new full tilt. Where is that coming from?

You can confidently say that they will see a performance increase from buckle to BOA. In the testing they have shown that in an identical boot with the only change being going from buckle to BOA that the boa boot allows the skier to initiate movements, ie begin a turn 10% faster and put 4-6% more force through the boot. This all comes from the fact that the BOA system allows the boot to wrap the foot better and more evenly and this in turn leads to the boot flexing more accurately. To get the best performance from a boot you want the boot to as closely match the foot a possible and BOA allows this to happen better than buckles.

As for the price increase I ill only speak for K2 but we added $100 to our buckle boots but adding BOA was not all we did we updated the boots in a number of ways. We knew we would need new tooling as we realized early on jut putting BOA on a buckle shell would not work effectively so we took the opportunity to update the boots in other ways. Our BOA shells include durability and strength updates to the shells, we have an all new modular boot board design and we have new liner features. So customers are not just getting a BOA system they are getting updated boots. I also worked hard to ensure our BOA boots were priced so that they matched most other brands buckle boots so customers will still find they get great value for money.

As for the last point I am hearing this from retailers all over. Any one who sees a BOA boot has been intrigued and they want to play with it and more often than not they want to try them on. This in turn is creating great demand and Im proud to say our Recon 120 BOA is the top selling boot in a very large network of retailers. Now this may not be the case every where and it seems it is not where you are. What area are you located out of interest?

Oct 6 2023 2:22PM

1 1

Posts: 113 - Karma: -87

Karma: -87

Posts: 113

Pro

Thanks Tom
I’m not sure how those test numbers were produced or if they will resonate with my customers. Saying there is a single digit boost in performance is not really important to an 15-25 day a year skiing. $100 is.
My shop is in the Rockies.

Oct 6 2023 2:46PM

2 1

Posts: 7184 - Karma: 17,778

Karma: 17,778

Posts: 7184

Crazy Fool

sicbithThanks Tom
I’m not sure how those test numbers were produced or if they will resonate with my customers. Saying there is a single digit boost in performance is not really important to an 15-25 day a year skiing. $100 is.
My shop is in the Rockies.

I mean if they are not skiing that often then saying the boot will not only fit better but also help them ski better should be an easy sell. I get the price increase but with how much better the boots feel and ski I don't think you will have many people resisting too much. Good luck with them and let me know if you need any other info.

Oct 6 2023 3:10PM

3 0

Posts: 4126 - Karma: 18,066

Karma: 18,066

Posts: 4126

No Life

sicbithWe all know BOA is a proven way to close a shoe, boot, snowboard boot etc, no questions there. I’ll have a BOA on the right and a buckle on the left and my customer will ask why should I spend $125 more to go with BOA? I tell them ease of use, less force needed to close the shell, etc. it’s hard to say there’s a performance gain. I can say it takes less energy to close, but a foot can only handle so much compression before it fatigues. How that compression is achieved doesn’t really matter?

BOA has obviously put a lot of $$ into this tech. Do they have any oversight of the boot design?

At this point I have customers walking in looking at the wall and asking for see what boots work, they are not asking for BOA at all, they just want to get the right boot for their foot. You mentioned BOA being the new full tilt. Where is that coming from?

This sounds like the common misconceptions of most people currently who haven’t actually handled the new boa boots personally and are making judgments based off the old systems like you listed.

I don’t know if that’s your case or not, but it seems like anyone who has actually handled, worn, skied etc the new boa systems all agree they are better across the board. Both in comfort and performance. I have not seen anyone who has actually used the new boa systems complain and say they are not better than the buckle equivalents. In fact the exact opposite. They all love the new system after using it.

Oct 6 2023 3:17PM

2 1

Posts: 113 - Karma: -87

Karma: -87

Posts: 113

Pro

It’s not a love, hate thing, I have no opinions either way as long as the boots work for my customers. I’ve spoken with people who bought them last spring and have spent some time in them. I’ve had different brands on my feet, I’ve had clinics by your reps, I think I have enough experience with them to sell them. I just had some questions which I’ve struggle to answer for my customers. It will all shake out, and in the end some people we like them, some will not. I don’t think any one boot brand will be 100% BOA only, but I may be wrong. Thanks for being on here

Oct 6 2023 4:00PM

0 0

Posts: 4126 - Karma: 18,066

Karma: 18,066

Posts: 4126

No Life

sicbithIt’s not a love, hate thing, I have no opinions either way as long as the boots work for my customers. I’ve spoken with people who bought them last spring and have spent some time in them. I’ve had different brands on my feet, I’ve had clinics by your reps, I think I have enough experience with them to sell them. I just had some questions which I’ve struggle to answer for my customers. It will all shake out, and in the end some people we like them, some will not. I don’t think any one boot brand will be 100% BOA only, but I may be wrong. Thanks for being on here

When you say last spring, are you talking 22 or 23? I don’t believe a single new boa was shipping spring 22. I believe maybe one or 2 were actually shipping spring 23 and I could even be wrong on that with the shipping. I know they were being demoed at blister 23.

Oct 6 2023 5:17PM

1 1