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130+ flex race boot for park skiing, pro's & cons

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tominiemenmaa
Posts: 573 - Karma: 3,386
Couldn't find a decent thread, just random posts here and there about stiff race boots for park, so here it comes.

I'm 175cm/73kg / 5'9/160lbs athletic youngster, turning 40 this year and I currently ski the Faction Prodigy 3.0 in 178cm.

Skiing my fifth season, all of which have been 99+% in the park. Nowadays I'm a pretty strong skier and I ski 70+ days per season. This season will hit close to 100 if I keep staying out of injuries.

My boot history:
Started with 275 Dalbello Krypton
->
265 FT TWP for the next season
->
255 FT Dropkick for the next season
->
255 FT Dropkick Pro with Medium Booster strap for the next season
->
255 FT Dropkick Pro with Zipfit Freeride liners for the two following seasons, also moved from the flex90 stock tongues step by step, up to the stiffest ones from last November, which are flex130. Also swapped the Medium Booster strap for a World Cup at the same time, which is also the stiffest available.

The current setup is unimaginably good compared to what it was before the Zipfits. I absolutely love skiing them. The stiff tongue & Booster strap have made me understand the importance of a truly properly fitting shell. The Zipfits are a game changer, but even they can't shrink the shell to match my small and slender feet.

Went to my go-to shop yesterday to scan my feet and discuss the matter. Head & Lange would suit my feet the best according to the boot fitter. As the season is on it's last phase, the shelves were empty and they didn't have the correct size-last-stiffness combo for me.

I was dazzled by the fact I could slip my feet into 245 Lange's with zero pain. That was a flex90 boot, but still.

The surprises continued when trying a 265 Head WCR120, which was obviously too big, but also felt flexier than my current boots. Always thought the FT flex wasn't on par with other brands but I guess the Zipfits make the difference.

Also tried on a 245 Head WCR1, which is a 93mm last (whopping 5mm narrower than my current shell) flex150-160 hardcore racing boot. The heel cup was way too narrow for me but other than that, it felt like I could ski it from the shelf. The flex was obviously way too stiff for me and my needs too.

Some of the pro park skiers use stiff race boots, but I of course aren't one of them with their physique and skills.

Next week I'll be trying on;
250 Head WCR 140
250 Head WCR 120
250 Head Formula RS 130

Before getting to try those on, the question is, what are your experiences & expectations for a boot like this compared to my current setup according to my size and skill level? Do you think the 140 would be overly stiff as I'm surely not the biggest guy around. I've also only skied this hard as my current level allows me to on the mushy and well cushioned setup, with absolutely zero experience on a tight fitting race boot anywhere on the hill.
Mar 10 2023 1:31AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6679 - Karma: 11,007
First, a ski boot has no idea where you ski on the mountain or how good you are. It only knows your foot shape, leg shape and how much force you put into the boot. If a semi-race boot is the best solution for that, you will be happy.

Second, scanners are great for getting the data of your foot. They are HORRIBLE for recommending what boot to be in and are a complete scam when it comes to that. Their recommendations are often linked to what the shop sells or (even worse) has on hand and it 100% cannot predict your tolerance for foot compression, nor liner thickness. Get your foot data and just try on the boots in this category.

Third, all of the boots in this category are designed to be fit, not automatically fit out of the box. So, another reason why a scanner's recommendation is bullshit. These boots are all made with thick, durable plastic that is purpose built to be ground and stretched to fit your foot. They are made to be fit to you, not automatically fit you. Normally, if you measure 25cm, then you are often in a 24.5 that is stretched out to a 25.5. But this is a boot fitter question, not a "scanner said this size matches my foot" question.

Fourth, most of these boots have solid plastic soles and a firm foam boot board. See if the shop can add grippier lifters and router the toes & heels back to ISO 5355 dimensions and also put in a shock absorbing boot board.

Fifth, Head's boots are the widest/highest volume in the category. Their "98mm" Formula fits like most 100mm boots and their "96mm" Raptor is quite generous. That may or may not be what you need after 20 days of skiing...

Sixth, get the flex that best suits your weight, height, strength, ankle range of motion, and forces you put into the boot. No one can tell you that "140" is too stiff other than you and your boot fitter. Given your stats that you mentioned, I would be skeptical if that would be the best, but again I can't watch you flex the boot to know. These boots can also be easily softened, which is way easier than trying to stiffen a boot that is too soft for you.
Mar 10 2023 3:08AM
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tominiemenmaa
Posts: 573 - Karma: 3,386
The referenced post has been removed.

Yes, of course. But the topic still describes quite specific, and very different type of boot that I'm currently skiing.

Second, scanners are great for getting the data of your foot. They are HORRIBLE for recommending what boot to be in and are a complete scam when it comes to that. Their recommendations are often linked to what the shop sells or (even worse) has on hand and it 100% cannot predict your tolerance for foot compression, nor liner thickness. Get your foot data and just try on the boots in this category.

This is just what we did. The scanner of theirs doesn't make any kind of recommendations, just gives measurements. The boot fitter looked at my feet, looked at my measurements, and said he'd first go for Lange & Head. I've been a happy customer of his for years and he knows my situation well enough.

Third, all of the boots in this category are designed to be fit, not automatically fit out of the box. So, another reason why a scanner's recommendation is bullshit. These boots are all made with thick, durable plastic that is purpose built to be ground and stretched to fit your foot. They are made to be fit to you, not automatically fit you. Normally, if you measure 25cm, then you are often in a 24.5 that is stretched out to a 25.5. But this is a boot fitter question, not a "scanner said this size matches my foot" question.

This is also very true. I'm certainly not trying to buy this type of boots without fitting them. I ordered all of the three boots online in the 250 mondo because wanted to feel the difference within the same manufacturer and trying to narrow the selection down. The smallest Formula RS is a 250 and the WCR140 was sold out at 245, so went for the 250 with every model to understand their differences and to develop an understanding about the classic 4 buckle boot flex because I've only used three piece cabrio's before this. If some of the three Head models end up as my boot-to-be, I'm most likely going to try the 245 also. Head's shells go between 1cm and liners between .5cm, so the shell is actually the same as a 255 (which you obviously know, but some other people here might not).

Fourth, most of these boots have solid plastic soles and a firm foam boot board. See if the shop can add grippier lifters and router the toes & heels back to ISO 5355 dimensions and also put in a shock absorbing boot board.

We discussed this also, and they can mod the boot board with shock absorbing material if I want to (he said most of his customers who have went with a race boot for park have been satisfied without the mod tho). I'd be using my custom insoles from my current boots. They're Bootdoc's which have been heavily modified by a physiotherapist specializing in these, I also use his insoles for my everyday shoes.

Fifth, Head's boots are the widest/highest volume in the category. Their "98mm" Formula fits like most 100mm boots and their "96mm" Raptor is quite generous. That may or may not be what you need after 20 days of skiing...

I'm aware of that too. Won't having the budget for another pair of Zipfits this spring, but honestly can not see myself skiing anything else in long term. Will be upgrading the Head liners to Zipfits in the future for sure. So that won't be a problem in the long run, right?

Sixth, get the flex that best suits your weight, height, strength, ankle range of motion, and forces you put into the boot. No one can tell you that "140" is too stiff other than you and your boot fitter. Given your stats that you mentioned, I would be skeptical if that would be the best, but again I can't watch you flex the boot to know.

Yeah, just wanted to hear peoples opinions & experiences about this as I'm a complete tourist in this game (and to be fair, the boot fitters in Finland aren't that specialized comparing to central europe & the states for obvious reasons).
These boots can also be easily softened, which is way easier than trying to stiffen a boot that is too soft for you.

This is one of the main reasons I'm writing this. I want a stiff enough boot, not something which feels floppy after ten days of getting used to but also don't want to invest this large sum of cash for a boot I end up hating because of too high flex rating or too tight fit for my use case.

What would you recommend from your line-up? Please answer in detail, as I'm hyper curious about this :)
Mar 10 2023 3:37AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6679 - Karma: 11,007
tominiemenmaaWhat would you recommend from your line-up? Please answer in detail, as I'm hyper curious about this :)

Myself and the vast majority of our male freeski athletes ski in:
Redster CS 130
Redster Mimic Professional liner
Professional Dual Strap
Redster Dual Component lifters
Redster CS ShockStopper boot board

Most of our female freeski athletes are either in Redster CS 110 or Redster STI 110, depending on their foot volume, but same additional mods as above.

Once you experience the stability, power, smoothness, damping of a boot like this, you'll never go back to another style of boot. For example, we recently signed Justine Dufour Lapointe - a gold medal Olympic mogul skier who had always skied Full Tilt boots and was absolutely nervous about skiing anything else. She never thought a "regular" or especially a race boot would be as comfortable or ski as well as her FT. We set her up with a Redster STI 110 and she was absolutely blown away by it. She took her first win on the FWT at Ordino Arcalis with it and is totally convinced that a boot like this is the way to go.
Mar 10 2023 3:59AM
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tominiemenmaa
Posts: 573 - Karma: 3,386
Thanks. I'll definitely check these out if some of the Head's won't please me. And would've of course checked already if the retailer had these on the shelf or if they were available to me online with a hassle free return.
onenerdykidMyself and the vast majority of our male freeski athletes ski in:
Redster CS 130
Redster Mimic Professional liner
Professional Dual Strap
Redster Dual Component lifters
Redster CS ShockStopper boot board

Most of our female freeski athletes are either in Redster CS 110 or Redster STI 110, depending on their foot volume, but same additional mods as above.

Once you experience the stability, power, smoothness, damping of a boot like this, you'll never go back to another style of boot. For example, we recently signed Justine Dufour Lapointe - a gold medal Olympic mogul skier who had always skied Full Tilt boots and was absolutely nervous about skiing anything else. She never thought a "regular" or especially a race boot would be as comfortable or ski as well as her FT. We set her up with a Redster STI 110 and she was absolutely blown away by it. She took her first win on the FWT at Ordino Arcalis with it and is totally convinced that a boot like this is the way to go.
Mar 10 2023 8:01AM
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officechair
Posts: 270 - Karma: 2,175
I have Redster STI 110 and ski them all mountain (not park, sorry everyone). Few things about race boots:

1. They aren’t necessarily painful. In the correct boot they’re just as comfortable or more than a bad fitting resort boot. But in my experience they can be painful on variable snow days due to lack of absorption (maybe that’s a me issue though)

2. They can be cold. The liners are extremely thin, so you may need a boot glove.

3. Step into the boot without a liner and make sure the shape fits your toes. The Redster TI and STI are sunken lower into the boot than others, so it cups your toes a bit. This isn’t something I noticed until one of my toes started hurting after a few hours. I’ve ground and tried to punch it, but it’s in the shape so I think I either have to punch and double stack a footbed to lift higher into a wider section or get a new boot.

4. Depends on company, but a 110 flex race boot might be more similar to a 130 resort. I’ve tried dalbello 90 flex race and it’s quite stiff. So be weary of over booting yourself just based on number.

5. The lean angle is more extreme than most resort boots, so in the lift line you might be sitting pretty far forward and it can be uncomfortable after long periods.

But if you have a small foot like me, they lock your heel down better than anything else I’ve tried.
Mar 10 2023 1:23PM
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BradFiAusNzCoCa
Posts: 7083 - Karma: 62,071
It sounds cliche but I do think the right flex will kind of “click”. I was previously in a tecnica mach1 130 LV. I dropped to a 120 Mach1 LV and got an expert booster strap and the difference is night and day (it’s not lost on me that the booster strap adds to this). The flex feels so perfect for my body and skiing style. So don’t write the other boots off. Plenty of people ski stiffer and more traditional boots in the park. It just depends.

I can’t imagine going to a “mushy” park boot tbh. Once you feel the difference in response, you’ll get it.

*also I like a super tight fit so I had to blow a few places out for the tradeoff of very locked heel paired with my thin heels and high calf muscle. Zipfits are on my list for the future
Mar 10 2023 5:54PM
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tominiemenmaa
Posts: 573 - Karma: 3,386
1. I don't want to ski in a boot that hurts to ski. I want to maximize performance to the point where it's close, but am not willing to go over it.

2. Of course because there's way less insulation. This is a concern because most of the winter it's pretty cold where I ski. Zipfits are noticeably less warm than Intuitions, but just warm enough for me.

3. Will do of course. I kinda have the basics down and know what I'm after, but in the end I've only skied cabrio boots so far so trying to gather all the information I can before pulling the trigger.

4. I'm all good with the current setup stiffness-wise and could go a tad stiffer if needed, but not much. By default I'm looking for a similar flex in a tighter fitting traditional shell.

5. This was my biggest concern because FT's are one of the more upright boots and I ride them in the most upright position. The Head's are only one degree steeper on the lost upright position, so no problemo here.

Thanks!
officechairI have Redster STI 110 and ski them all mountain (not park, sorry everyone). Few things about race boots:

1. They aren’t necessarily painful. In the correct boot they’re just as comfortable or more than a bad fitting resort boot. But in my experience they can be painful on variable snow days due to lack of absorption (maybe that’s a me issue though)

2. They can be cold. The liners are extremely thin, so you may need a boot glove.

3. Step into the boot without a liner and make sure the shape fits your toes. The Redster TI and STI are sunken lower into the boot than others, so it cups your toes a bit. This isn’t something I noticed until one of my toes started hurting after a few hours. I’ve ground and tried to punch it, but it’s in the shape so I think I either have to punch and double stack a footbed to lift higher into a wider section or get a new boot.

4. Depends on company, but a 110 flex race boot might be more similar to a 130 resort. I’ve tried dalbello 90 flex race and it’s quite stiff. So be weary of over booting yourself just based on number.

5. The lean angle is more extreme than most resort boots, so in the lift line you might be sitting pretty far forward and it can be uncomfortable after long periods.

But if you have a small foot like me, they lock your heel down better than anything else I’ve tried.


BradFiAusNzCoCaIt sounds cliche but I do think the right flex will kind of “click”. I was previously in a tecnica mach1 130 LV. I dropped to a 120 Mach1 LV and got an expert booster strap and the difference is night and day (it’s not lost on me that the booster strap adds to this). The flex feels so perfect for my body and skiing style. So don’t write the other boots off. Plenty of people ski stiffer and more traditional boots in the park. It just depends.

I can’t imagine going to a “mushy” park boot tbh. Once you feel the difference in response, you’ll get it.

*also I like a super tight fit so I had to blow a few places out for the tradeoff of very locked heel paired with my thin heels and high calf muscle. Zipfits are on my list for the future

I'm confident I'd know my boot-to-be after just one test lap per boot, but unfortunately that's not realistic in Finland. That's why I ask around so much, after all it's a dive head first (pun!) to the unknown.
Mar 11 2023 12:38AM
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officechair
Posts: 270 - Karma: 2,175
Couple more things to add. I think I worded a bit wrong on comfort. I meant to say that they can be just as comfortable as a resort boot if they fit right. Not sure why I compared them to a bad fitting resort boot.

Check out Salomon s/race. There’s some 2020ish versions for cheap online. They’re pretty roomy on top of the foot and toe box. Dalbellos have a low volume for top of the foot so hurt to me, and atomics have a weird pointed and cupped toe. I think the Salomons might fit your zip fits better since they have decent space. Can’t speak to head or others since I haven’t tried them on.

**This post was edited on Mar 11th 2023 at 9:04:24am

**This post was edited on Mar 11th 2023 at 9:06:34am
Mar 11 2023 9:01AM
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tominiemenmaa
Posts: 573 - Karma: 3,386
IMHO anyone who isn't paid for it shouldn't ski in a boot that hurts. The Zipfits of mine are a high volume model. It would be a mistake to try to find a shell which can handle them. Will sell them and get another model, better suiting for my new shell. For my new boot it will be a high possibility for a size down, and certainly not a high volume model like the FT Dropkick & Zipfit Freeride. I'll post my thoughts after I've tried the Head models.
officechairCouple more things to add. I think I worded a bit wrong on comfort. I meant to say that they can be just as comfortable as a resort boot if they fit right. Not sure why I compared them to a bad fitting resort boot.

Check out Salomon s/race. There’s some 2020ish versions for cheap online. They’re pretty roomy on top of the foot and toe box. Dalbellos have a low volume for top of the foot so hurt to me, and atomics have a weird pointed and cupped toe. I think the Salomons might fit your zip fits better since they have decent space. Can’t speak to head or others since I haven’t tried them on.

**This post was edited on Mar 11th 2023 at 9:04:24am

**This post was edited on Mar 11th 2023 at 9:06:34am
Mar 12 2023 12:32AM
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japanada
Posts: 13785 - Karma: 1,956
From a 27.5 down to a 24/25 shell. Never has going to a boot fitter rang more true. I used to ride a rs130 in the park. Rode a rs140 when I lived out west, granted it was more cliffs and chutes than park. I prefer finding something that fits my foot rather than the just get FTs NS mentality.
Mar 13 2023 12:48AM
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tominiemenmaa
Posts: 573 - Karma: 3,386
Learning curve 101 🤷‍♂️😵‍💫
japanadaFrom a 27.5 down to a 24/25 shell. Never has going to a boot fitter rang more true. I used to ride a rs130 in the park. Rode a rs140 when I lived out west, granted it was more cliffs and chutes than park. I prefer finding something that fits my foot rather than the just get FTs NS mentality.
Mar 13 2023 1:18AM
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ultimatejerry
Posts: 7 - Karma: 28
just ordered rossignol hero wc 130, felt way better at ankle than my last dalbellos and was suprised how comfy they felt! flex also went up by 40.
Mar 16 2023 2:18AM
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sambuswell
Posts: 742 - Karma: 3,453
I used to ski First Chair 10s with a booster strap, and man were those things stiff. I've since moved to a 130 flex overlap style boot, and no way are they stiffer than the old FTs. I think the stiff tongue and wrap liner combo made them stiffer than was really necessary for me
Mar 16 2023 7:29AM
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tominiemenmaa
Posts: 573 - Karma: 3,386
onenerdykidThese boots can also be easily softened, which is way easier than trying to stiffen a boot that is too soft for you.

The Head shipment arrived at last. The wcr140 fits like a glove with my Zipfit Freerides but I'm a bit unsure about the flex. The 120 feels a tad too soft and the 130 is too roomy to properly analyze the flex but presumably it is what I'm looking for.

What are the options to soften a shell if needed?
Mar 26 2023 5:14AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6679 - Karma: 11,007
tominiemenmaaWhat are the options to soften a shell if needed?

Your boot fitter incrementally cuts down the lower shell. He cuts a little, you go try it, if you need more you go back and have more cut. It's a piecemeal process, bit by bit. You can always cut more out, you can't grow it back.

It's better to do that than start with a boot that is a hair too soft.
Mar 26 2023 9:41AM
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tominiemenmaa
Posts: 573 - Karma: 3,386
Thanks! Will go and chat this in person next week with the boot fitter.

What's your (or anyone's interested in commenting) opinion about the flex comparison video below? The Dropkicks feel great in overall flex for me.


https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/1067911/trim-8FC1CD82-6924-40A4-BBD3-0B38B62C0CCE-MOV


onenerdykidYour boot fitter incrementally cuts down the lower shell. He cuts a little, you go try it, if you need more you go back and have more cut. It's a piecemeal process, bit by bit. You can always cut more out, you can't grow it back.

It's better to do that than start with a boot that is a hair too soft.
Mar 26 2023 10:17AM
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powpatrol
Posts: 1705 - Karma: 11,047
tominiemenmaaThanks! Will go and chat this in person next week with the boot fitter.

What's your (or anyone's interested in commenting) opinion about the flex comparison video below? The Dropkicks feel great in overall flex for me.


https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/1067911/trim-8FC1CD82-6924-40A4-BBD3-0B38B62C0CCE-MOV


am no bootfitter but it looks like a much larger gap/distance between shin and actual liner and boot contact on the raptor than on the dropkick? could be something to do with the difference in forward lean between the 2?
Mar 26 2023 3:09PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6679 - Karma: 11,007
It definitely looks like the Raptor could be softened; it's only going to get stiffer when its frozen.

And despite being a "96mm" boot, it's definitely one of the highest volume boots in that category, especially the cuff. Might need to add a calf spoiler to take up some play if you go ahead with it.
Mar 26 2023 3:35PM
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tominiemenmaa
Posts: 573 - Karma: 3,386
Yes, the Raptor has a few degrees steeper forward lean than the Dropkick. The flex feels somewhat similar in both, the Dropkick starts more upright and because of that, it has softer feel at the beginning of the flex pattern, but feel very similar at the end of the flex range. If I had more experience with on an overlap boot I probably had more confidence in this, but again, I've only skied cabrio boots as an adult and the flex pattern and feel is just different.
powpatrolam no bootfitter but it looks like a much larger gap/distance between shin and actual liner and boot contact on the raptor than on the dropkick? could be something to do with the difference in forward lean between the 2?

There's definitely more play between the shin and the cuff than what is optimal. I'm very hesitant to crank the upper buckles tight at the get go because I've had some nasty strain injuries in my peroneals a few years back and those were partially caused by overtightened boot cuffs. When going skiing I tighten my boots close to optimal tightness but leave them at the looser end of the optimal range and tighten them on the hill after first 2-3 laps if needed. Must've left the Raptors too loose yesterday.

onenerdykidIt definitely looks like the Raptor could be softened; it's only going to get stiffer when its frozen.

And despite being a "96mm" boot, it's definitely one of the highest volume boots in that category, especially the cuff. Might need to add a calf spoiler to take up some play if you go ahead with it.


Here's a new clip with the cuffs tight:

https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/1067940/trim-82364D92-9306-4F48-B022-AFF962FAC7C7-MOV
There's still some extra room at the back of the cuff. Not quite excited about a spoiler because I've really liked the FT upright stance (well, still don't know about anything else because they're the only boot I'm experienced with) and the Raptors are already a few degrees more forward leaning.

If these are my boots to be, I can add more cork composite to the tongue of the Zipfits but it will not remove all of the play. The boot looks and feels stiff, but the fit is already amazing, and I haven't altered the Zipfits in any way, they're just like I've used them with the Dropkicks. Only going to get better, not by much, but definitely not going any worse.
Mar 27 2023 1:17AM
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Juviticus
Posts: 361 - Karma: 1,845
Calf spacer would do some good for ya
Mar 27 2023 1:47AM
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tominiemenmaa
Posts: 573 - Karma: 3,386
Status update:

255 Redster cs130 & 255 Zipfit Freeride feels almost exactly the same as 245 WCR 140 & 255 Zipfit Freerides. Like to a point where I imagine would be hard to tell the difference without looking. Of course there's multiple minor differences, especially in the flex pattern, but I'm very surprised how close they as a whole. The Head millimeters are truly different than others.

Both of them don't feel nearly as good with stock liners, but that's due to the perfectly fitting Zipfits and not heat molded stock liners of course. I could ski either of them without modifying the shells for a while, but my guess is after an hour or so or after first sub-optimal bigger landing they'd both suck big time.

The Redsters are a bit tight in the heel area and the Raptors need a tad more room on the outer side in the toe area. Both need a bit more room upwards in all of the toe area.

The Redsters are WAY easier to put on. Almost as easy as Full Tilts compared to the Raptors, which are a huge pain in the ass to put on.

Atomic sells soft bootboards, Head doesn't. If I go with the Heads, this is something to be McGyvered.

Redsters are a bit higher quality in every way, especially the plastic is amazingly soft for a 130 flex, but they are also very ugly to my eye 😂

Price is somewhat similar in both.

Both have very good booster straps.

I feel like I'm going to pull the trigger on either of these as I honestly don't think the fit is going to be better in any other boot. These both fit me very well. Will be going to chat with the bootfitter before the final decision to discuss the upcoming work and his opinion about this whole setting.

Would YOU go for the eye pleasing and uncomfortable to put on camp which need some innovating for the bootboards, or head to the sub-par swag camp?

(Honestly I'm also a bit on the fence with the 245 Redster, but that would need way more work and also a 245 Zipfit, which I haven't tried on and it's possible it would be too small after all.)
Apr 6 2023 8:41AM
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