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PSA: Nothing is Bombproof

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LeSaboteur
Posts: 6 - Karma: 83
It doesn't matter how many quinquagenarians on the internet tell you something is indestructible- nothing is and every product has a lifespan. After having issues with Salomon, I got myself some pivots and after 80 days on them I had a turntable snap while riding:



I went home and thought to maybe check my other ski:


If you look closely, there's a hairline crack where the turntable bends 90 degrees. The exact same spot the other one failed.

For reference, I am not a heavy or particularly aggressive skier, and I haven't slid any rails on these skis. A big shout out to Rossignol for being super helpful on the warranty and I was lucky it snapped when I was doing some mellow turns. But seriously, visually and physically inspect your gear on a regular basis or your overconfidence in it might get you killed.

As far as other inspections go, pulling on the toe and heel pieces has saved three tearouts over two years. A $40 helicoil job or $100 in brakes is a lot cheaper than any medical bills.
Jan 30 2023 10:20PM
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Non_State_Actor
Posts: 4880 - Karma: 17,353
Look will probably warranty that.

There have been a few that snapped like that. Perhaps a bad batch of parts or lacking QA?
Jan 30 2023 10:23PM
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.nasty
Posts: 10582 - Karma: 11,182
Do you get out of your bindings with your skis or with your poles? All the marks on the black part of the arm suggest using skis.

I see this (or snapped arms) happen a lot in the shop and every single time it's a rider who steps out of their bindings with their skis. Not once has it happened on a set where a person uses their poles. Basically with the design of the pivot, think about how much force you're putting downward on those arms that were never designed for that.

**This post was edited on Jan 31st 2023 at 9:43:01am
Jan 31 2023 9:42AM
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weastcoat
Posts: 6435 - Karma: 74,241
.nastyDo you get out of your bindings with your skis or with your poles? All the marks on the black part of the arm suggest using skis.

I see this (or snapped arms) happen a lot in the shop and every single time it's a rider who steps out of their bindings with their skis. Not once has it happened on a set where a person uses their poles. Basically with the design of the pivot, think about how much force you're putting downward on those arms that were never designed for that.

**This post was edited on Jan 31st 2023 at 9:43:01am


This is very intriguing.
Jan 31 2023 1:49PM
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Rparr
Posts: 5602 - Karma: 46,290
.nastyDo you get out of your bindings with your skis or with your poles? All the marks on the black part of the arm suggest using skis.

I see this (or snapped arms) happen a lot in the shop and every single time it's a rider who steps out of their bindings with their skis. Not once has it happened on a set where a person uses their poles. Basically with the design of the pivot, think about how much force you're putting downward on those arms that were never designed for that.

**This post was edited on Jan 31st 2023 at 9:43:01am


Is this specific to the pivot or just bindings in general?


Wondering if the shape of the parts of the pivot make it more susceptible to failing from this force

**This post was edited on Jan 31st 2023 at 2:37:46pm
Jan 31 2023 2:37PM
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weastcoat
Posts: 6435 - Karma: 74,241
weatcoastThis is very intriguing.


Actually no it’s not that interesting because people who click out of their bindings with only poles definitely aren’t going hard enough to snap heel rings lmao.
Jan 31 2023 2:44PM
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LeSaboteur
Posts: 6 - Karma: 83
.nastyDo you get out of your bindings with your skis or with your poles? All the marks on the black part of the arm suggest using skis.

I see this (or snapped arms) happen a lot in the shop and every single time it's a rider who steps out of their bindings with their skis. Not once has it happened on a set where a person uses their poles. Basically with the design of the pivot, think about how much force you're putting downward on those arms that were never designed for that.

**This post was edited on Jan 31st 2023 at 9:43:01am


Funny enough, I use my poles to get out 99% of the time. The marks are to the best of my knowledge from generally being clumsy while skiing. I'm pretty sure about this because the marks are on both sides and I always use my right foot if I'm using skis to get out.

I did find a tgr thread mentioning what you said about using skis to get out, but that doesn't make much sense to me as you're putting the vast majority force at the end of the binding with your ski which wouldn't translate to very much force pulling on the bend in the turntable. To your credit, the crack propagated from the top of the plate and not the bottom, which suggests the failure was from the bend being pulled outward by something, and they are both on the right side.

The ski tech who repaired them theorized it has to do with skiing switch. I do a hefty amount that but I have no idea how that would break anything though.
Feb 1 2023 12:28AM
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andreyer
Posts: 92 - Karma: 463
ON3P is bomb proof
Feb 1 2023 12:34PM
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.nasty
Posts: 10582 - Karma: 11,182
LeSaboteurFunny enough, I use my poles to get out 99% of the time. The marks are to the best of my knowledge from generally being clumsy while skiing. I'm pretty sure about this because the marks are on both sides and I always use my right foot if I'm using skis to get out.

I did find a tgr thread mentioning what you said about using skis to get out, but that doesn't make much sense to me as you're putting the vast majority force at the end of the binding with your ski which wouldn't translate to very much force pulling on the bend in the turntable. To your credit, the crack propagated from the top of the plate and not the bottom, which suggests the failure was from the bend being pulled outward by something, and they are both on the right side.

The ski tech who repaired them theorized it has to do with skiing switch. I do a hefty amount that but I have no idea how that would break anything though.


if all the force was on the end of the binding, you wouldn't see any marks along the entire heel piece down onto the arm. There's a careful way to step out making sure you're only on the end, but virtually no one thinks about it that much. See the pic below of a ski in the shop right now. He told me he switches skis often and never uses his poles to get out, and both arms are shreded down to almost the threads.

This goes beyond what a bunch of people on forums discuss, I have 11 years or strict observation backing up my claim and can tell you it's 100% a huge factor in pivot heels breaking. You are actually the first one I've seen it happen to who uses their poles to get out of the binding.


Feb 1 2023 12:56PM
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Farmville420
Posts: 4793 - Karma: 61,508
for a second I thought bro snapped the poachers I was boutta salute you
Feb 1 2023 2:17PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
I’m not an engineer - someone with that background should correct me here, but I believe that piece of metal is made into that final shape by stamping from a metal plate and then bending that little area that’s showing a hairline fracture up so the arm can be attached. Seems like an area that would also undergo a lot of force/manipulation during manufacture and could be a potential area receiving high amounts of force when in use.
Feb 2 2023 6:39AM
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I_liketobutter
Posts: 2664 - Karma: 997
RudyGarmischI’m not an engineer - someone with that background should correct me here, but I believe that piece of metal is made into that final shape by stamping from a metal plate and then bending that little area that’s showing a hairline fracture up so the arm can be attached. Seems like an area that would also undergo a lot of force/manipulation during manufacture and could be a potential area receiving high amounts of force when in use.


As long as the radius of that bend is greater than or equal to the material thickness it shouldn't be a problem.

I've never had this issue between pairs with hundreds of days on them. So idk if this is a new problem based on the increase in pivot users or maybe a slight difference in the metal they're using. The amount of shit we've had to deal with at work due to companies trying pull one over on us, intentionally or not, by using a slightly cheaper version of "x" metal is infuriating.
Feb 2 2023 1:47PM
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WoFIowz
Posts: 9791 - Karma: 72,406
.nastyDo you get out of your bindings with your skis or with your poles? All the marks on the black part of the arm suggest using skis.

I see this (or snapped arms) happen a lot in the shop and every single time it's a rider who steps out of their bindings with their skis. Not once has it happened on a set where a person uses their poles. Basically with the design of the pivot, think about how much force you're putting downward on those arms that were never designed for that.

**This post was edited on Jan 31st 2023 at 9:43:01am


Have you ever tried getting out of pivots with poles? It's impossibly difficult
Feb 3 2023 11:02AM
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Rparr
Posts: 5602 - Karma: 46,290
Turd__AuthorityHave you ever tried getting out of pivots with poles? It's impossibly difficult


Stop skipping arm day
Feb 3 2023 11:17AM
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WoFIowz
Posts: 9791 - Karma: 72,406
RparrStop skipping arm day

Normal baskets are OK but powder baskets are challenging to get the tip in the right spot due to the angle.
Feb 3 2023 4:16PM
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Rparr
Posts: 5602 - Karma: 46,290
Turd__AuthorityNormal baskets are OK but powder baskets are challenging to get the tip in the right spot due to the angle.


I was just shitposting I've never even stepped into pivots lmao
Feb 3 2023 4:17PM
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WoFIowz
Posts: 9791 - Karma: 72,406
RparrI was just shitposting I've never even stepped into pivots lmao


Oh lol you had me for a second, like what am I doing wrong haha. I've always been one to use my poles until I got pivots.
Feb 3 2023 6:35PM
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Twinjibber77
Posts: 6239 - Karma: 2,355
1. I think this is a fluke manufacturing/QC issue
2. I agree using poles is definitely a good idea

...I just came here to say that using my poles for years eventually put holes through both my heel peices and I'm still upset about it
Feb 4 2023 10:42PM
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Nic_Sutter
Posts: 108 - Karma: 222
I_liketobutterAs long as the radius of that bend is greater than or equal to the material thickness it shouldn't be a problem.

I've never had this issue between pairs with hundreds of days on them. So idk if this is a new problem based on the increase in pivot users or maybe a slight difference in the metal they're using. The amount of shit we've had to deal with at work due to companies trying pull one over on us, intentionally or not, by using a slightly cheaper version of "x" metal is infuriating.


I'm an engineer, and yeah... the Pivots and FKS's are prolly being made with Chinesium enriched stainless steel. Somebody put a magnet next to their Pivots. Does it attract the magnet? If it does, it's 400 series stainless steel. If it does not attract the magnet, it's 300 series stainless steel. Stainless is definitely "tougher" than mild steel, but you should be able to press brake it (aka, bend it) without stress fracturing the material. I bet these are made with 400 series stainless, which can be further heat treated. Mess up a few of the heating or cooling profiles when heat treating something and.... you get cracks.
Feb 15 2023 2:53PM
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animator
Posts: 4555 - Karma: 26,274
weatcoastActually no it’s not that interesting because people who click out of their bindings with only poles definitely aren’t going hard enough to snap heel rings lmao.


i only use my poles because its bad for the base structure of your skis if you do it with your other ski...
Feb 15 2023 2:56PM
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BigPurpleSkiSuit
Posts: 9400 - Karma: 68,876
Turd__AuthorityHave you ever tried getting out of pivots with poles? It's impossibly difficult


If you saw a shirtless pic of the OP, you would realize that he has no trouble getting out of anything, except my loving grasp sometimes
Feb 15 2023 4:48PM
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PartyBullshiit
Posts: 4031 - Karma: 17,866
I’ve seen some people do some crazy stomps on the heels when trying to release them to the point I’m shocked more don’t break right off.
Feb 15 2023 5:19PM
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Non_State_Actor
Posts: 4880 - Karma: 17,353
animatori only use my poles because its bad for the base structure of your skis if you do it with your other ski...


It's nothing compared to rails, boxes, stumps, and rocks. Your bases will be fine
Feb 15 2023 7:15PM
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LeSaboteur
Posts: 6 - Karma: 83
.nastyif all the force was on the end of the binding, you wouldn't see any marks along the entire heel piece down onto the arm. There's a careful way to step out making sure you're only on the end, but virtually no one thinks about it that much. See the pic below of a ski in the shop right now. He told me he switches skis often and never uses his poles to get out, and both arms are shreded down to almost the threads.

This goes beyond what a bunch of people on forums discuss, I have 11 years or strict observation backing up my claim and can tell you it's 100% a huge factor in pivot heels breaking. You are actually the first one I've seen it happen to who uses their poles to get out of the binding.



Not trying to discount your experience but I did notice the other day that when I get into them, being a clumsy guy I rely on stomping down as hard as I can and this definitely means I stomp on the side multiple times before snapping in. This would put a shit ton of pressure on the bend in the plate, and I'd bet people who stomp out of their skis stomp in like that too.
RudyGarmischI’m not an engineer - someone with that background should correct me here, but I believe that piece of metal is made into that final shape by stamping from a metal plate and then bending that little area that’s showing a hairline fracture up so the arm can be attached. Seems like an area that would also undergo a lot of force/manipulation during manufacture and could be a potential area receiving high amounts of force when in use.

I don't do structural stuff anymore, but the bit that sticks up I would guess is accounted for in the vertical direction only given that the cam on the heel piece only pulls that way. That curve in the plate is significantly more brittle than the rest of it after they bend it and would then be more susceptible to fatigue- e.g. from some idiot repeatedly stomping on it, especially if they found they could use a less ductile overall alloy that would have the tensile strength they needed to satisfy the pressure from the heel piece while cutting costs. I wouldn't know without breaking into their change history so speculation is all we have.
Feb 16 2023 11:05PM
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