Women’s 130 flex ski boots

signtimeEasy for you to sit there with the whole world revolving around you, whining and crying about women trying to progress in our sport.

ah I’ve been waiting for this :)

the world does not revolve around me. I just don’t see myself as a victim and thus do not feel the need to complain to other people about the issues I go through. You should try it sometime.

People act like a size 22 is a rare thing, yet half the girls in my friends group are that size, we even have one girl that needs a 21, I really feel for her. I need a 22 with a 130 flex, my only option is a full plug world cup race boot, so that's what I am in. I would love to have other options.

Lari said it though, I'm pretty tired of trying to get people to care. There are so many issues with women's gear I could write a novel. Anytime I mention I only have access to "X option for gear" everyone immediately jumps up to tell me "I love X option, you should stop whining." Nevermind that they have the whole alphabet available to them. It's just exhausting.

Pinknames, in the name engineering progress, I am going to need you all to dm me a pic of your feet so we can get to the bottom of this issue and start truly innovating for those less represented in skiing.

Edit: Must be 18+. No weirdos please.

**This post was edited on Dec 20th 2022 at 5:15:57pm

CyaniceninePeople act like a size 22 is a rare thing, yet half the girls in my friends group are that size, we even have one girl that needs a 21, I really feel for her. I need a 22 with a 130 flex, my only option is a full plug world cup race boot, so that's what I am in. I would love to have other options.

Lari said it though, I'm pretty tired of trying to get people to care. There are so many issues with women's gear I could write a novel. Anytime I mention I only have access to "X option for gear" everyone immediately jumps up to tell me "I love X option, you should stop whining." Nevermind that they have the whole alphabet available to them. It's just exhausting.

https://www.evo.com/alpine-touring-ski-boots/atomic-hawx-ultra-xtd-130-ct-gw#image=219603/979895/atomic-hawx-ultra-xtd-130-ct-gw-alpine-touring-ski-boots-2023-.jpg



here you go. You can support a brand that’s giving you what you want and prove me wrong at the same time!

**This post was edited on Dec 20th 2022 at 6:27:52pm

CyaniceninePeople act like a size 22 is a rare thing, yet half the girls in my friends group are that size, we even have one girl that needs a 21, I really feel for her. I need a 22 with a 130 flex, my only option is a full plug world cup race boot, so that's what I am in. I would love to have other options.

Lari said it though, I'm pretty tired of trying to get people to care. There are so many issues with women's gear I could write a novel. Anytime I mention I only have access to "X option for gear" everyone immediately jumps up to tell me "I love X option, you should stop whining." Nevermind that they have the whole alphabet available to them. It's just exhausting.

I have some genuine questions for you and I truly don't mean any disrespect:

- I really think a lot of this comes down to supply and demand. Obviously, every ski manufacturer and every boot manufacturer can't make a ski or boot for every outlier. I'm curious how many women need a true 130 flex ski boot when they have a 21 or 22 shell. I've skied my entire life and while I have had some true 130 flex boots and enjoy their performance, I normally ski a 120 flex. Please don't take this personally, but is it possible that a vast, vast majority of females don't actually need a 130 flex boot? If you are such a strong skier that you need a 130 flex ski boot, good for you. That's awesome. But could it be that a lot of women that are upset that there aren't many 130 flex ski boots in 21 and 22 shells would be WAY better suited in a softer flexing boot, which would be why the 130 flex ski boots are hard to find? Are some women just mad that a product doesn't exist for them even though that product would be terrible for them?

I've seen so many friends start skiing late in life and were influenced to purchase ski boots way too stiff or skis too long and too stiff. It held them back. It took them forever to figure out how to get forward in the boot and ski and it took them so many years to bend a ski into a proper turn.

Say Lange, Salomon, Nordica, Rossignol, Head, Fischer, K2, Dalbello, etc started making a 130 flex ski boot for non-racer women: How many do you think they would sell at skis shops? I bet very, very few as the only women needing that get them for free on sponsorship deals. So they are the bad guys just getting together and trying to keep women down? It's a big conspiracy?

Craw_DaddyReally? I don’t think anyone has a right to be frustrated with other people when the responsibility of solving their extremely unique problems should be theirs and theirs alone (with the exception of healthcare, matters of life and death, etc.). That’s nice that you’re trying to solve this issue but I’m willing to bet those other “equally small production runs” are more profitable for your business because men are much more willing to pay a premium to support those niche product lines. You’re free to prove me wrong with the sales numbers but until you do, I’m going to assume that this perceived slight that women feel is just that, perceived.

I honestly don't see how you can place the responsibility of product options onto the skiers. It's not their fault that a brand isn't making products according to demand. People absolutely have a right to say "we exist, please make more options for us based on market need".

A size 22 Hawx Ultra XTD 130 is just as profitable for us as a size 26. Every year we are always sold out and people are wanting more. It's not a matter of being less profitable, it's a matter of availability and production priority. Business-wise it's solid.

freeballerI have some genuine questions for you and I truly don't mean any disrespect:

- I really think a lot of this comes down to supply and demand. Obviously, every ski manufacturer and every boot manufacturer can't make a ski or boot for every outlier. I'm curious how many women need a true 130 flex ski boot when they have a 21 or 22 shell. I've skied my entire life and while I have had some true 130 flex boots and enjoy their performance, I normally ski a 120 flex. Please don't take this personally, but is it possible that a vast, vast majority of females don't actually need a 130 flex boot? If you are such a strong skier that you need a 130 flex ski boot, good for you. That's awesome. But could it be that a lot of women that are upset that there aren't many 130 flex ski boots in 21 and 22 shells would be WAY better suited in a softer flexing boot, which would be why the 130 flex ski boots are hard to find? Are some women just mad that a product doesn't exist for them even though that product would be terrible for them?

I've seen so many friends start skiing late in life and were influenced to purchase ski boots way too stiff or skis too long and too stiff. It held them back. It took them forever to figure out how to get forward in the boot and ski and it took them so many years to bend a ski into a proper turn.

Say Lange, Salomon, Nordica, Rossignol, Head, Fischer, K2, Dalbello, etc started making a 130 flex ski boot for non-racer women: How many do you think they would sell at skis shops? I bet very, very few as the only women needing that get them for free on sponsorship deals. So they are the bad guys just getting together and trying to keep women down? It's a big conspiracy?

My experience here, hearing it in both North America and in Europe, is that existing size 22 boots with a 115 flex (the standard high-end offering for women) is not enough boot for a lot of people. To address this, in addition to our Redster boots, we (Atomic) started making our Hawx Ultra XTD 130 in a true 22 and 23 last year. We are completely sold out, the demand is there. On top of that, some women are expressing their desire for an even stiffer boot, but this is mainly professional skiers.

As of today, all of the brands you mentioned make equally small production runs on certain men's models, models which arguably shouldn't be made due to barely (or not even) reaching minimum order quantity for production. So the question is, "Why is this happening for men but not for women?" Honestly, a lot of it comes down to the decisions in product meetings still simply being made by men and since it has absolutely no effect on them, it's ignored or given far less attention than it should. It's proven that women are spending the money on these expensive boots and the demand is there. It's going to be down to the brands to listen and make products accordingly, or not.

Craw_Daddyah I’ve been waiting for this :)

the world does not revolve around me. I just don’t see myself as a victim and thus do not feel the need to complain to other people about the issues I go through. You should try it sometime.

Well then it's pretty ironic that the only people playing victim, whining and crying and bitching and moaning and blowing this whole thing out of proportion, talking bout how their feet are bleeding, are men like you.

Bunch of babies

And yet, those are the cries that get coddled by the boot makers, instead of actually listening to the consumer - that they consider gender expression an important element of the product design

freeballerI have some genuine questions for you and I truly don't mean any disrespect:

- I really think a lot of this comes down to supply and demand. Obviously, every ski manufacturer and every boot manufacturer can't make a ski or boot for every outlier. I'm curious how many women need a true 130 flex ski boot when they have a 21 or 22 shell. I've skied my entire life and while I have had some true 130 flex boots and enjoy their performance, I normally ski a 120 flex. Please don't take this personally, but is it possible that a vast, vast majority of females don't actually need a 130 flex boot? If you are such a strong skier that you need a 130 flex ski boot, good for you. That's awesome. But could it be that a lot of women that are upset that there aren't many 130 flex ski boots in 21 and 22 shells would be WAY better suited in a softer flexing boot, which would be why the 130 flex ski boots are hard to find? Are some women just mad that a product doesn't exist for them even though that product would be terrible for them?

I've seen so many friends start skiing late in life and were influenced to purchase ski boots way too stiff or skis too long and too stiff. It held them back. It took them forever to figure out how to get forward in the boot and ski and it took them so many years to bend a ski into a proper turn.

Say Lange, Salomon, Nordica, Rossignol, Head, Fischer, K2, Dalbello, etc started making a 130 flex ski boot for non-racer women: How many do you think they would sell at skis shops? I bet very, very few as the only women needing that get them for free on sponsorship deals. So they are the bad guys just getting together and trying to keep women down? It's a big conspiracy?

A lot would because every year, women as a whole are just getting better at skiing. And more able to travel freely and buy our own stuff and research what gear we need without having to have a male mentor enable us to do it. Demand is increasing every year that women are out there.

onenerdykidMy experience here, hearing it in both North America and in Europe, is that existing size 22 boots with a 115 flex (the standard high-end offering for women) is not enough boot for a lot of people. To address this, in addition to our Redster boots, we (Atomic) started making our Hawx Ultra XTD 130 in a true 22 and 23 last year. We are completely sold out, the demand is there. On top of that, some women are expressing their desire for an even stiffer boot, but this is mainly professional skiers.

As of today, all of the brands you mentioned make equally small production runs on certain men's models, models which arguably shouldn't be made due to barely (or not even) reaching minimum order quantity for production. So the question is, "Why is this happening for men but not for women?" Honestly, a lot of it comes down to the decisions in product meetings still simply being made by men and since it has absolutely no effect on them, it's ignored or given far less attention than it should. It's proven that women are spending the money on these expensive boots and the demand is there. It's going to be down to the brands to listen and make products accordingly, or not.

How stiff is the Hawx Ultra XTD 130 in the 22 and 23 size? How does it compare to the flex of a 130 race boot?

signtimeWell then it's pretty ironic that the only people playing victim, whining and crying and bitching and moaning and blowing this whole thing out of proportion, talking bout how their feet are bleeding, are men like you.

Bunch of babies

Please point out where I played victim. All I’ve done is sit here and talk shit, meanwhile you’re in here recommending books about how women are victimized lmao… also do you even ski??

onenerdykidI honestly don't see how you can place the responsibility of product options onto the skiers. It's not their fault that a brand isn't making products according to demand. People absolutely have a right to say "we exist, please make more options for us based on market need".

I don't place the responsibility of designing products for brands on to the consumer. I place the responsibility of finding solutions for one's own problems on to individuals. If a brand does not make exactly what you need then modify what you already have to better suit your needs.

A size 22 Hawx Ultra XTD 130 is just as profitable for us as a size 26. Every year we are always sold out and people are wanting more. It's not a matter of being less profitable, it's a matter of availability and production priority. Business-wise it's solid.

That's interesting that you say it's a matter of availability which would imply that there is high demand for the product when earlier you said:

it's not as easy as just making more 130 options in size 22 or 21. Every single ski boot brand struggles with this topic simply because the ROI doesn't exist on paper. Brands don't want to spend the money on double-digit unit sales. And every single year, I have to fight to keep these sizes/flexes alive.

and

Outside of racing, we make our Hawx Ultra XTD 130 and the Prime XTD 130 in a true 22. And every year, I have to fight to keep them from being cancelled due to low demand, demand that primarily comes from retail (brand direct boot business is rather inconsequential).

If it is a solid product business-wise, why on earth would you need to fight to keep them from being canceled?

I think a big problem in all this is getting retailers and also sales reps on board in carrying the product. As Matt said they make the hawx xtd 130 in a a 22 and 23 and we have both the mindbender team and anthem team (130) both in full women’s size runs so the products are being made. But if you don’t see them much it’s becuase retailers are not stocking them. Retailers buy product they can sell so if they do not see demand for these products unfortunately they won’t end up on the walls. So female skiers need to be more vocal and let retailers know they want these higher end products.

Craw_DaddyI don't place the responsibility of designing products for brands on to the consumer. I place the responsibility of finding solutions for one's own problems on to individuals. If a brand does not make exactly what you need then modify what you already have to better suit your needs.

That's interesting that you say it's a matter of availability which would imply that there is high demand for the product when earlier you said:

and

If it is a solid product business-wise, why on earth would you need to fight to keep them from being canceled?

To your first point: two of the more impossible things to fix in boot-fitting are: 1) boots that are too big and 2) boots that are too soft. If a guy walks into see his boot-fitter and his boot is too big for his foot and/or too soft, then the boot-fitter says get a smaller and stiffer boot. We are discussing the problem that people can't get the small enough size they need and the proper stiffness they need. Both things are wrong for them from a product specification and the boot-fitter cannot fix them. And when both are wrong, then the only solution is the proper starting point- a smaller and stiffer boot.

To your other points: don't confuse product profitability with gross sales. From a product profit percentage, the boots are great- just as high as the men's boots. From a gross sales perspective, they aren't that great in general due to their small quantity, but it's just as low (i.e. equal) as the men's boots. Again, if we are doing it for men which have the same overall business (product profit percentage and gross sales) but not for women, then something is askew.

From a demand perspective, the answer is always two fold: the first purchasers of our products are retailers- we only produce what we get retail orders for and the retailers ultimately decide what gets sold to end users. The secondary purchasers of our products are the end user - they only buy what the retailers bring into their stores. And here is the disconnect. The end user demand is there, but the retailers aren't bringing enough in, and this is why I need to fight to keep the products alive. I know the end user demand is there but it's not reflected in the orders we get from retailers.

Craw_DaddyPeople like me think this conversation is stupid because boot comfort is not a gendered issue. Men deal with this shit too. My toes used to bleed every time I skied when I first got my boots because they got pressed into each other so hard. You know what I did? Went to 3 different boot fitters and got custom foot beds to fix it. You know what I didn’t do? Bitch on social media about it!

yet all you’re doing here is complaining? Every single reply of yours is moaning about the fact that some women hoped for better ski boots?

freeballerHow stiff is the Hawx Ultra XTD 130 in the 22 and 23 size? How does it compare to the flex of a 130 race boot?

The ideal goal of a boot's flex is to have a consistent flex pattern across all sizes. Brands can either do this with using a the same plastic material across all sizes but making the smaller boots a bit thinner and larger boots a bit thicker. Or it can be done by keeping the wall thickness scaling constant but using softer material in the smaller sizes and harder material in the larger sizes. Ultimately, the same flex curve is the goal across all sizes.

A race boot 130 will be stiffer than a free touring boot 130, and it's linked to a lot of different things. Boot flex ratings makes sense when you stay within a family. Hawx Ultra vs Hawx Prime vs Hawx Magna the flexes all line up quite nicely. And the same generally goes for the Redster boots. But what doesn't make a whole lot of sense is to compare flexes across families, like comparing Redster to Backland or Hawx to Redster. They are just way too different. In my personal opinion, and I've often said it on podcasts, is that I would love it if the ski boot industry just abandoned the whole flex rating system altogether. It's not linked to any value, it's not standardized, it's different from brand to brand, and WAY too many people get fixated on the number rather than the other more meaningful features found on the boot. We'd all be better off if brands just switched to Hard, Medium Soft and let the other parts of the boot bring value & solutions to them.

GnomesAreRealyet all you’re doing here is complaining? Every single reply of yours is moaning about the fact that some women hoped for better ski boots?

Yeah and you’re moaning about the fact that I’m moaning about the fact that you women are moaning. You’re just using circular reasoning here… the fact is that I didn’t start this debate and I am not the one trying to claim that ski boot manufacturers have it out for women. I am merely a participant in this thread giving my opinions. And in my opinion, a few outspoken women have huffed too many of their own farts and have taken an issue of supply and demand and made it about gender. I guess time will tell though because by sound of it, k2 and atomic both have 130 flexes in a 22.5. So let’s see how well those products do.

onenerdykidThe ideal goal of a boot's flex is to have a consistent flex pattern across all sizes. Brands can either do this with using a the same plastic material across all sizes but making the smaller boots a bit thinner and larger boots a bit thicker. Or it can be done by keeping the wall thickness scaling constant but using softer material in the smaller sizes and harder material in the larger sizes. Ultimately, the same flex curve is the goal across all sizes.

A race boot 130 will be stiffer than a free touring boot 130, and it's linked to a lot of different things. Boot flex ratings makes sense when you stay within a family. Hawx Ultra vs Hawx Prime vs Hawx Magna the flexes all line up quite nicely. And the same generally goes for the Redster boots. But what doesn't make a whole lot of sense is to compare flexes across families, like comparing Redster to Backland or Hawx to Redster. They are just way too different. In my personal opinion, and I've often said it on podcasts, is that I would love it if the ski boot industry just abandoned the whole flex rating system altogether. It's not linked to any value, it's not standardized, it's different from brand to brand, and WAY too many people get fixated on the number rather than the other more meaningful features found on the boot. We'd all be better off if brands just switched to Hard, Medium Soft and let the other parts of the boot bring value & solutions to them.

So what you are sorta saying is that it's not that a growing group of women need a true 130 flex, but they do in fact need a stiffer boot than what is readily available at ski shops? I guess my point was with the 130 flex number. I have to admit that I was wondering if some women wanted a 130 flex boot because they knew they couldn't really get one, not because they needed an actual 130 flex boot. However, it does seem that there is a demand for stiffer boots for women, especially in the 21-23 shell size.

I have this pair of 2012 Nordica Patron Pro that's 130 flex and brand spanking new. I have kept it out of the sun and in my closet for 10 years. I started skiing it this year and I'm freaking in love with it, but man, that boot is pretty damn stiff and I had to take some rivets out. I would guess that it is MUCH stiffer than the 130 flex that more and more women want in a boot now, but maybe I am just being a dickhead.

Damn 130 flex, she must be thic

freeballerSo what you are sorta saying is that it's not that a growing group of women need a true 130 flex, but they do in fact need a stiffer boot than what is readily available at ski shops? I guess my point was with the 130 flex number. I have to admit that I was wondering if some women wanted a 130 flex boot because they knew they couldn't really get one, not because they needed an actual 130 flex boot. However, it does seem that there is a demand for stiffer boots for women, especially in the 21-23 shell size.

I have this pair of 2012 Nordica Patron Pro that's 130 flex and brand spanking new. I have kept it out of the sun and in my closet for 10 years. I started skiing it this year and I'm freaking in love with it, but man, that boot is pretty damn stiff and I had to take some rivets out. I would guess that it is MUCH stiffer than the 130 flex that more and more women want in a boot now, but maybe I am just being a dickhead.

I am saying that I see a growing number of women need more than where current women's boot's top out at, even at smaller sizes like 22. Do they all need a 130? Probably not, but whenever someone says their current 115 is too soft then a 130 in the same category is usually the next logical step. Or bump up to a higher performance category of boots (like moving out of a Hawx boot and into a Redster boot) with a similar flex rating.

The Nordica Patron Pro was basically a re-branded Dobermann Pro 130, a race-inspired boot. I hesitate to say these boots are "true" 130s because there is no such thing as a "true" 130 but they are noticeably more solid and stable than an "all mountain" 130, like the Nordica Promachine 130.

tomPietrowskiI think a big problem in all this is getting retailers and also sales reps on board in carrying the product. As Matt said they make the hawx xtd 130 in a a 22 and 23 and we have both the mindbender team and anthem team (130) both in full women’s size runs so the products are being made. But if you don’t see them much it’s becuase retailers are not stocking them. Retailers buy product they can sell so if they do not see demand for these products unfortunately they won’t end up on the walls. So female skiers need to be more vocal and let retailers know they want these higher end products.

i think this is the key issue
an old shop owner i worked for didn't want to order any 130 boots even for mens cause "pEoPle dOnT nEeD 130 fLeX"
That guy didn't order a womens boot over a 110 flex and was worried about selling a 97 last lv boot cause it "wIL bE tOo sNuG"

onenerdykidI don't think anyone has the expectations that these boots will be killing it. They should simply be given the same consideration as equally small production runs of certain men's boots. Many brands are ok with doing it for men, but they aren't doing the same for women. I think people have a right to be frustrated with that type of unfairness.

i invented "killin it" as well as ski engineering phenomenon's... it sucks that people like you represented themselves as intelligent, only to realize ten years later, you live off your mom. your brain is ancient, and your group of friends that represent the rest of idiocracy, ruined freestyle skiing, newschoolers.com, and every kids dream of killin it.

SHIN BANG IS FROM FREESTYL'N WITH RACE BOOTS.
FULL TILT SUCKS, RAICHELE IS ANCIENT.
MEN AND WOMEN ARE BEGGINF FOR FREESTYLE,
NEWBS LIKE NERDYKID/wallisch NEVER MADE IT PASSED SWITCH UPS/trained aerials....

thankagaperSHIN BANG IS FROM FREESTYL'N WITH RACE BOOTS.
FULL TILT SUCKS, RAICHELE IS ANCIENT.
MEN AND WOMEN ARE BEGGINF FOR FREESTYLE,
NEWBS LIKE NERDYKID/wallisch NEVER MADE IT PASSED SWITCH UPS/trained aerials....

This has a 90's Vanilla Ice or Snow vibe to it

Well here we are 4 months later and the only women’s 130 flex AT boot on the market has not sold out on evo yet.

https://www.evo.com/alpine-touring-ski-boots/atomic-hawx-ultra-xtd-130-ct-gw#image=219603/979895/atomic-hawx-ultra-xtd-130-ct-gw-alpine-touring-ski-boots-2023-.jpg

seems like if there was actually demand for this product they would have sold out immediately but they’ve been on sale for the past month at least. I wonder if the situation is the same in other ski shops that carry atomic boots? Pink names get your shit together!