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Why do we allow all these money hungry boomers and boomer companies to run this sport? The new gen gives a fuck about community, and we can change this shit. There’s a reason why everyone is downsizing park, it’s cause a buncha outta shape 40 year olds who don’t know shit about the culture are calling the shots.
WyattLoneyWe’re the consumers, stop consuming and you incite change. Support your homies that are making brands, keep park skiing inclusive to park skiers.
Yea well the homies brand isn't paying for the new Vans movie so your logic is a little flawed there. Don't get be wrong support the crew but just cause a brand is a real brand it doesn't make it evil
Well there are lots of big brands that I’d say support the culture and community, funding a movie project is totally for the community. Not all the big names are like this tho, money is in the competition advertisement scene. Clothing aside, y’all have an epic pass after putting #vuckfail in ur bio.
I know how Ns is and I came out swingin, but I’m really not looking for confrontation, I’m just saying, as consumers we have the power to change the things we don’t like about the sport. We should use it.
I 100% support buying from the “core” brands that support skiers, but look around at the resort and see how many young people are wearing the corporate shit. Most of them
GourdI 100% support buying from the “core” brands that support skiers, but look around at the resort and see how many young people are wearing the corporate shit. Most of them
WyattLoneyThere’s a reason why everyone is downsizing park, it’s cause a buncha outta shape 40 year olds who don’t know shit about the culture are calling the shots.
no, its because a park makes no money for mountains and it brings little shitheads like u around a nice family establishment that they want to stay nice
GrapeHunterno, its because a park makes no money for mountains and it brings little shitheads like u around a nice family establishment that they want to stay nice
PART OF THE PROBLEM PEOPLE “PARK MAKES NO MONEY” look at what these people are trying to do to our sport!!!
It's definitely not cause the 40 year olds are the ones paying for hotels+lodge food+lessons+drinks at the bar or anything. It couldn't possibly be that young park skiers are more likely to not pay for hotels, lessons, food and drinks at the mountain. It would be absurd to cater toward the people that bring the most money to resorts by a huge margin. What ever would the resorts do if the people that the resort profited the least from stopped going to their already overcrowded resorts, making the experience for their piggybanks on skis better while also making room for more piggybanks.
Call up the general manager at your favorite mountain and tell them make the parks better for the culture. Also anyone in their 40's is either a Millennial or Gen X.
jompcockIt's definitely not cause the 40 year olds are the ones paying for hotels+lodge food+lessons+drinks at the bar or anything. It couldn't possibly be that young park skiers are more likely to not pay for hotels, lessons, food and drinks at the mountain. It would be absurd to cater toward the people that bring the most money to resorts by a huge margin. What ever would the resorts do if the people that the resort profited the least from stopped going to their already overcrowded resorts, making the experience for their piggybanks on skis better while also making room for more piggybanks.
Call up the general manager at your favorite mountain and tell them make the parks better for the culture. Also anyone in their 40's is either a Millennial or Gen X.
Whatever you wanna call a has been. I know “park makes no money” the dude above you said that, good elaboration with lots of sarcasm tho. We all know who these big resorts are catering to and for the most part that’s probably not changing, they like rich people on the bunny hill. But do you think if a resort catered just a little more towards park skiing it could profit more? You think the whole downsizing woke movement doesn’t negatively impact the community? Not everyone is some shithead kid who doesn’t use their brain. And I think that park skiing is consistently becoming more mainstream, resorts completely turning away for the potential money is crazy.
WyattLoneyWhatever you wanna call a has been. I know “park makes no money” the dude above you said that, good elaboration with lots of sarcasm tho. We all know who these big resorts are catering to and for the most part that’s probably not changing, they like rich people on the bunny hill. But do you think if a resort catered just a little more towards park skiing it could profit more? You think the whole downsizing woke movement doesn’t negatively impact the community? Not everyone is some shithead kid who doesn’t use their brain. And I think that park skiing is consistently becoming more mainstream, resorts completely turning away for the potential money is crazy.
As a diehard park skier, I can confidently say the only resorts that would lose money from getting rid of parks are some of the small hills that can only dream of being overcrowded and want any ticket/pass purchase they can get and the huge ones that the pros call their local. Any medium sized resort, especially those on a mega pass could get rid of their park and probably see no loss in profit. I ski mostly at an independent resort that probably loses money on its parks program but I will continue to ski there as long as they have a decent park. Parks are really fucking expensive to do well. Parks need staff to build, maintain and rebuild throughout the season, not to mention the absurd cost of blowing snow to build a decent jump that could have otherwise been used to open more terrain, to make the mountain appealing to more families that will spend more money skiing there, and also reduce crowding.
Corporations will act in a way that will generate the most profits. Cry and rally all you want, it won't do anything. What will do something is if resorts see more people in their parks and resort chains see their mountains with better parks make more money, they will expand their parks but only if it will make them more money.
Idk how "woke movement" has anything to do with anything. It's about the numbers. No more, no less.
Maybe one day we will see a separation between resorts and dope spots that’s 2or 3 only park trails accessed by a Tbar or rope tow so it’s a lot less expensive to operate. That’s a dream tho. Someone has gota figure out how to make that work from a business standpoint. Probably not very realistic.
i'm not a park skier, and i've only been skiing for 10 years so it's not like i've really seen the "before" and "after" of vail and alterra, but i think this massive influx of new skiers has to do with the decline of park, and skiing in general. they're taking up space and crowding the mountain, and the mountains want to cater to them. the mountain isn't going to put a bunch of resources into the park when that's not where the money is. it's too bad.
imo (and ik i'll get downvoted for this because it's not hip), skiing needs to not focus on inclusivity and instead focusing on surviving. the big corporations are building a bubble that will pop someday and i don't know what's going to happen when it does. cheap passes are good and all, but at what cost? it definitely does not even out.
**This post was edited on Nov 3rd 2022 at 11:23:38pm
DeebieSkeebiesHot take here but ski resorts want to make money.
This turned into much more about resorts than I would’ve expected, my opinion really isn’t that strong on that as I’ve never skied at any of these big resorts, I only know my local that transferred owners and is declining on the park scene, but in their case its arguable that they’re losing money. So while I said that about all the parks, I really don’t know about all the parks. My opinion is wack I know.
WyattLoneyThis turned into much more about resorts than I would’ve expected, my opinion really isn’t that strong on that as I’ve never skied at any of these big resorts, I only know my local that transferred owners and is declining on the park scene, but in their case its arguable that they’re losing money. So while I said that about all the parks, I really don’t know about all the parks. My opinion is wack I know.
It's not the worst take and I'm mostly fucking around. But I understand. I grew up skiing family-owned locals in MI as a kid, moved out to Utah young and now have seen lots of changes that I disagree with at places I've skied over the years, but really it's just a different time we live in. I've been working at mega resorts since I was 17 and that's not a long time but you just need to learn to adapt and be flexible and creative.
Support the the people behind the creative endeavors you love and just enjoy being on skis dudes. We're all just overthinking this and just need to bend some skis.
**This post was edited on Nov 3rd 2022 at 11:53:30pm
GrapeHunterno, its because a park makes no money for mountains and it brings little shitheads like u around a nice family establishment that they want to stay nice
And this hits because I’ve spent so much time trying to sway my local hills opinion on park skiers, because this is 100% their mentality, I’ve gone as far as to volunteer full time, but that mentality is so strong they’d never let me touch a rake although I’m more knowledgeable about this sport than anyone there. I say part of the problem because that’s such a bad attitude and kinda stereotypical. You really every park skier is the neanderthal swearing in the lift line?
WyattLoneyPART OF THE PROBLEM PEOPLE “PARK MAKES NO MONEY” look at what these people are trying to do to our sport!!!
Park def doesn't bring in the money like other things. Also it's hard to figure out the true roi on them dollars.
I will say a lot of places are building parks. Most places have one so thats a good thing. A lot more smaller parks at smaller resorts which kind of makes sense for their size.
We're a long way past the explosion of snowboarding(and the freeski boom) in the early 2ks when everyone was getting into it and a lot of places had wild parks. That said I think there are more mountains that have a park probably now. Things are pretty consistent for builds.
I don't think we're at a bad spot just different.
Def support the local brands especially the person making their own stuff when you can.
Idk what coming out swinging does though. I get that Vail buying up everything is frustrating but idk what the point is.
Support people getting into the sport and learning in the park. Be cool to the people hiking the features even if they aren't as good. Hope they stick with it.
Things have changed over the years but we still have parks, some places they're growing, and that's friggin sweet.
ajbskiBlame the comp jocks doing triples. You don't see aerials, moguls or distance jumps open to the public at resorts.
XL lines at resorts are dyeing because they are deemed as to dangerous for average jerry to hit. They are for trained athletes.
Blame the people that are using the XL lines for not having XL lines?
The stoke "Build something crazy and see what happens" vibe explosion has long ago died out. as far as triples? it's whatever. People feared 900's 1080s, dub corks, triples. Trips have made dubs steezy af and opened the door for weird dubs. Idk, I'm not a big fan of spin to wint but I think contests have stepped into more style in the last few years and that's great to see.
Can’t knock the hussle and I don’t understand your point. Are you saying they are taking terrain parks away or somthing? I just think you get to a certain age where the culture is cool and all but money is more important. If everyone was bums in the ski industry we wouldn’t have shit.
+TbernatovichCan’t knock the hussle and I don’t understand your point. Are you saying they are taking terrain parks away or somthing? I just think you get to a certain age where the culture is cool and all but money is more important. If everyone was bums in the ski industry we wouldn’t have shit.
Solid point, but yeah a lot of people are gearing away from park, whether it be that they think poorly of the community, or they’re scared of liability. It sucks because the ones who are truly passionate about this side of skiing aren’t the problem. Rowdy high schoolers, and jerrys have ruined it for everyone.
SteezyYeeterthat's too bad. XL lines are super cool, and more interesting than rails imo.
Yeah your 100% correct they’re for the athletes and not for some vacationing rich dude to almost die on. I don’t see what’s so hard about implementing a park pass system where the pro parks can only be accessed by pro athletes. You let just anyone go and hit those, obliviously someone is going to get hurt.
WyattLoneyYeah your 100% correct they’re for the athletes and not for some vacationing rich dude to almost die on. I don’t see what’s so hard about implementing a park pass system where the pro parks can only be accessed by pro athletes. You let just anyone go and hit those, obliviously someone is going to get hurt.
Gatekeeping who is ready to hit a certain level of terrain isn't as easy as you think. In practice I don't think it would work so hot
theabortionatorBlame the people that are using the XL lines for not having XL lines?
XL back in the day (before dubs and trips) used to be like 35'. King of style "big air" jumps used to be like 40'. People pushing the envelope of the sport require more air time for their tricks. that means steeper take offs/landings, more speed, bigger gaps.
Im not sure if im remembering right, but the XL line at lake before they took it down was along the lines of 65'-70'.
With weather in mountains being variable, its hard to judge the speed on any given day or even through out the day. Competition jumps literally have a team of people monitoring the jump conditions at any point. Resorts just dont have those kind of resources to spend for the 20 people that would hit them in a weekend.
WyattLoneya buncha outta shape 40 year olds who don’t know shit about the culture are calling the shots
most of the guys who basically pioneered the "culture" we know today are well into or past their 40s.
Glen Plake - 58
Mike Douglas - 53
Jonny Mosely - 47
JF Cusson - 44
Even our heroes from the 2000s are getting up there:
Candide - 40
Jon Olsson - 40
Colby James West - 37
Tanner Hall - 39
TJ Schiller - 36
Wallisch - 35
My 2c is that the demographics of park skiing have very little buying power, being mostly teens and 20-somethings, both of which are varying degrees of broke. We simply don't come in and drop $500-1k on a weekend at the resort like the boomer/gen x/whatever bringing his family on holiday does.
What we do have significant sway when it comes to image: park skiing, and more broadly park-influenced freeride as well, is all over ski movies, posters, photos, but the flip side is it comes with the baggage of park skiing's problematic image of being exclusive, unwelcoming, a "boys club", injury prone, etc. Not that *all* of that is our fault ofc, skiing culture in many places is rigid and unwilling to welcome new-school skiing (looking at you, PSIA) which helps feed the problem.
So I think either way what is important is to be more inclusive, both so we can either try to grow our buying power, likely by making it a less young-person activity, and also by trying to meaningfully change any negative stigma that would make a brand or resort or person shy away from park skiing. FWIW I've already seen park culture start to change for the better but we still have a ways to go.
ajbskimost of the guys who basically pioneered the "culture" we know today are well into or past their 40s.
Glen Plake - 58
Mike Douglas - 53
Jonny Mosely - 47
JF Cusson - 44
Even our heroes from the 2000s are getting up there:
Candide - 40
Jon Olsson - 40
Colby James West - 37
Tanner Hall - 39
TJ Schiller - 36
Wallisch - 35
Sorry, im closer to 40 than to teens
Yes I said “who don’t know shit about the culture” so you made a list of all the pioneers of the culture. Clearly I’m not talking about all these influential riders. I’m talking about the guy who’s never hit a rail, but is park manager cause he knows how to drive a cat.
WyattLoneyYes I said “who don’t know shit about the culture” so you made a list of all the pioneers of the culture. Clearly I’m not talking about all these influential riders. I’m talking about the guy who’s never hit a rail, but is park manager cause he knows how to drive a cat.
I still dont think its those people calling the shots.
its the business owners/management who sit with accountants and see how much these massive parks cost to build/maintain/insure versus how much revenue they bring in.
competitions and special sessions will continue to exist because the parties managing those events pay resorts to host the event and hire special park builders on a need basis.
on the other hand, new businesses have been springing up to cater to those folks. i.e maximise in quebec
Btw you don’t have to listen to me at all my opinion is garbage 🤣 my local hill decided to make the park manager a “mountain manager” so he’s not able to attend to the parks often. They had a larger park crew but most left due to not being scheduled, they’re down to 3 guys on crew. Last season the usasa contest had to be rescheduled a month later because we didn’t have a park until mid January. This season I think they removed us from the tour. They completely buried the rails with a snow gun one day and threatened to cut my pass when I complained. They hardly shape because they hardly work the park crew. They turned me down offering to volunteer full time because “I don’t know the safety requirements” meanwhile they build the sketchiest features ever seen because the lack of knowledge on the culture, then they worry about liability because the features are so gnarly. I’m jus saying I know everything is about money, but does it’s really have to be? Can something be about the love for the sport?
WyattLoneyYes I said “who don’t know shit about the culture” so you made a list of all the pioneers of the culture. Clearly I’m not talking about all these influential riders. I’m talking about the guy who’s never hit a rail, but is park manager cause he knows how to drive a cat.
Well you don't know how to drive a cat and apparently don't have money, so what's your plan dude?
It sounds to me like this whole rant really revolves around your local hill more than anything and you're projecting those situations across the entire industry which just isn't the whole truth. First of all, sure vail isn't prioritizing parks, some places are mismanaged etc. But here in SLC where rumors are that PC is going to abandon the park all together in the coming years, we have Woodward that popped up, Brighton has a really fun park that has also been improving, I even hear Solitude is putting up a park?
Another note on idiots running the park who have no clue what they're doing... From a business perspective, trying to make money it makes sense to put the best guy who knows wtf he's doing in the park in that spot. Places who don't do that absolutely suffer in terms of their park. When that happens, many times the person in charge of those decisions is blazed af and doesn't realize why it sucks. They see it as a money pit which is why it then gets shit canned. On the other hand, I have seen those things turn around over the years as fresh faces in management with a brain come in and are able to put the right people in the park to build a sustainable customer base of locals who ride there for that. These scenarios happen from the tiniest resort up to massive corporations. Vail sucks for sure, but I think your point here is too focused on WHO IS THE BAD GUY, FUCK THE BAD GUY rather than addressing specific issues, and specific solutions to those issues.
My last blurb here is that I went through basically the exact same thing as you describe here. I skied 100 days or so a season in the midwest growing up getting into park skiing. Our park was run by some washed up dudes who had this clique and thought they were mega important. They rode on average about 3 hours a week including park sets. No regular maintenance, they just showed up and built these half baked ideas in bad ways. The park canvas there was amazing at the time too. I begged for the opportunity to just rake the park for free and make it fun to ride but they were always denied. It was a toxic environment to try and be in but I tend to be too loyal so I stayed for a number of years. Finally I had enough went to ride at Trollhaugen from then on and never looked back. Now I realize some areas don't have multiple resorts around, or there are factors preventing you from going elsewhere. But if change won't and can't happen where you are at currently and skiing is what you love, then I would encourage you to move somewhere that makes you happy. That may take some time but there' a lot of cool places to live in the world and life is too short to spend too long trying to change what will inevitably fail at your local hill.
WyattLoneyBtw you don’t have to listen to me at all my opinion is garbage 🤣 my local hill decided to make the park manager a “mountain manager” so he’s not able to attend to the parks often. They had a larger park crew but most left due to not being scheduled, they’re down to 3 guys on crew. Last season the usasa contest had to be rescheduled a month later because we didn’t have a park until mid January. This season I think they removed us from the tour. They completely buried the rails with a snow gun one day and threatened to cut my pass when I complained. They hardly shape because they hardly work the park crew. They turned me down offering to volunteer full time because “I don’t know the safety requirements” meanwhile they build the sketchiest features ever seen because the lack of knowledge on the culture, then they worry about liability because the features are so gnarly. I’m jus saying I know everything is about money, but does it’s really have to be? Can something be about the love for the sport?
ajbskimost of the guys who basically pioneered the "culture" we know today are well into or past their 40s.
Glen Plake - 58
Mike Douglas - 53
Jonny Mosely - 47
JF Cusson - 44
Even our heroes from the 2000s are getting up there:
Candide - 40
Jon Olsson - 40
Colby James West - 37
Tanner Hall - 39
TJ Schiller - 36
Wallisch - 35
When you say "we" do you mean skiers in general or just park/freeride skiers? or just people on NS? I think skiers can make a difference at smaller resorts but good luck trying to influence the decision-making that goes on at larger resorts. At least we can always support the brands that give back to the community and represent skiing the way that we want them to.
WyattLoneyWe’re on the right path. You wanna do something? Support the brands that actually support skiing.
people on ns are pretty good at supporting smaller companies. However the texans arent buying from smaller companies when they go on their expensive ski trips, the racers are all head and most skiers dont know about smaller brands.
GrapeHunterno, its because a park makes no money for mountains and it brings little shitheads like u around a nice family establishment that they want to stay nice
in fact ski resorts hate us cuz we fully use our pass
