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Americans (and maybe EU nations) are living in delusion basically telling Russia “if you invade Ukraine, you’ll be in big trouble, mister” threatening sanctions and all sorts of bullshit. But Russia has the support of China, you think they care? China has way more global power than we want to believe. Russia and Ukraine hold enormous amounts of oil (and specifically natural gas) that is supplied to European countries for energy and everybody is already screaming about high prices, wait until their energy bill triples still. US has lots of natural gas but we can’t transport it in scale. China has a stranglehold on the global supply chain as capitalism outsourced everything to China to save some bucks and make stonks go up. China’s belt and road initiative has blitzkrieg written all over it. I know this is speculation, but Russian trolls have also potentially been destabilizing united nations across the globe over the last decade too. It’s Russia and China’s world for the taking. Why are we so hellbent on going to space again? The war for natural resources is going to get a lot more brutal
we’re just left with hopes and dreams and the hope that NATO actually has any power.
apologies to eheath cuz i hope this turns into a political shitshow of a thread. Bring back Dolan
LonelySeems that the skepticism in this case though is really just as one sided as the people you're being critical of
If someone was talking about Russia using Wagner group, and their neonazis ties, I wouldn't necessarily agree with it but I could see a comparison to the small group of neonazis in Ukraine.
But when someone says "Hey, the bombing of civilian infrastructure, killing of civilians, lying to their own troops, imprisoning dissenesents, and occupating and invading a European country in the 21st century that they signed treaties with not to invade... Is pretty shitty" and the "skeptic" response "well you can't really tell, Ukraine does bad things too and they have a very small group of neonazis" it kinda seems like your just carrying water for Russia.
I think everyone who isn't some rabid neolib understands that it's war, and that Ukraine engages in bad activities. People are probably a little more focused on Russia though, because they are doing those same things at a much greater scale. It just feel like the "skeptics" aren't actually skeptics. They just go way off in the other directions. Reads more like contrairianism than skepticism
**This post was edited on Nov 17th 2022 at 1:07:35pm
I've posted multiple times I don't condone russia. I also don't want another proxy war with russia. I see rabid Ukrainian support and immediately worry about more failed interventionist policy arming the bad but not so bad guys ala the last 75 years in American history.
ASSholebomber22I've posted multiple times I don't condone russia. I also don't want another proxy war with russia. I see rabid Ukrainian support and immediately worry about more failed interventionist policy arming the bad but not so bad guys ala the last 75 years in American history.
Like omg you're totally triggering people with rhetoric like that.
Don't you understand? The constitution lidderally says we have to police the world and sell weapons to people that we don't have mutual defense treaties with.
ASSholebomber22I've posted multiple times I don't condone russia. I also don't want another proxy war with russia. I see rabid Ukrainian support and immediately worry about more failed interventionist policy arming the bad but not so bad guys ala the last 75 years in American history.
Look dude, we get your point, you dont like the idea that the west is giving military equipment to Ukraine when they have a few far right nationalists amongst their ranks. Fair. I don't like that either... nobody with a shred of sanity like arming extremists...
But this isn't only a proxy war to give money to the military industrial complex... it's also just a moral thing.
To put this into schoolyard context for you:
Russia is that big bully on the block who's been repeatedly punching the kid sitting next to him who used to be one of his absolute best friends, but they had a mutual falling out. Then, that kid started hanging out with other kids, and also came up on some lunch money... so the Bully starts being a dick to this kid. Other kids in the class have been telling him for years to stop being a bully, but he keeps doing this shit.
Eventually he went and punched the kid super hard and bloodied his nose and told him to give him all his shit like a fucking mugger... When the kid decided to stand up to the bully and punch back even harder, you go and decide that the rest of us shouldn't help him because he has some weird uncle who believes some weird shit and you want to be critical and edgy.
--
Like yes, there are some people fighting for Ukraine who have very unsavory ideas, but this isnt a nation that has no experience with democracy... They're literally one as we speak... this isn't even a nation without a secular history, as they have freedom of religion. It is not a lawless, tribal place. This is not Afghanistan. The right wing factions in Ukraine are not the Taliban, they have never had support in the past, and they dont have enough ideological support going forward to do much with it. Could they gain power one day in Ukraine? Sure... but we could say the same about extremists in any country. However, when they beat back Russia, they arent going to turn around and pull a Taliban.
Of course, we all know that youre not gonna change your mind on this in a newschoolers post... however, I hope you actually think about this a little harder than you are. Your conclusion here just comes off as really simplistic...
ASSholebomber22You guys seriously don't see how it's weird to be so hard dick about a nation with nazis in it's military who has repeatedly made fake propaganda to garner support? Berate me, belittle me, and illicit all the emotional response you'd like. But I haven't been wrong.
Tell me more about nazis and fake propaganda.
I as a Ukrainian need another portion of west planning. But before you do it, plz take a look at this vid.
Tl:dw - every time russia wants to start a war, it tells about the nazis. It has been their main reason for every conflict/war since 1950 (Korean war).
Tl:dw - every time russia wants to start a war, it tells about the nazis. It has been their main reason for every conflict/war since 1950 (Korean war).
You seem to ignore the half dozen times when I clearly stated that I don't support Russia's attack on Ukraine. I also don't support Ukraine largely due to their support of the azov battalion.
I'm not going to watch your 40 minute youtube video because you have a hard time coping with the fact that the Ukraine government objectively supports neo nazis in their military.
ASSholebomber22You seem to ignore the half dozen times when I clearly stated that I don't support Russia's attack on Ukraine. I also don't support Ukraine largely due to their support of the azov battalion.
I'm not going to watch your 40 minute youtube video because you have a hard time coping with the fact that the Ukraine government objectively supports neo nazis in their military.
That's real talk. Bring the facts about Azov soldiers being nazis.
ASSholebomber22You seem to ignore the half dozen times when I clearly stated that I don't support Russia's attack on Ukraine. I also don't support Ukraine largely due to their support of the azov battalion.
I'm not going to watch your 40 minute youtube video because you have a hard time coping with the fact that the Ukraine government objectively supports neo nazis in their military.
And one more thing. I didn't say that you support russia. I just want to talk solely about Ukraine and our nazi regiments.
And in my opinion, you're under the influence of russia propaganda if you think Ukraine has literal Nazis regiments (yes, that are your words)
ASSholebomber22How many ss/black sun/swastika tattoos on azov soldiers would you like me to post in this thread?
Post as many as you want. But be sure it's a black sun or swastika, but not a kolowrat- the symbol for Slavic pagans from the early days of Kyiv Ruth, before it was baptized, and even then used thoroughly.
It’s a hard-to-win-battle because you’re out of context of eastern Europe history, not even saying Ukrainians. It’s a grey zone.
Something looks to you as a DEFINITELY NAZI SIGN, which appears to be stuff from the Ukrainian past. And yes, some people don’t care about the third reich appropriation of the symbol. It’s not because they are nazis, but because their national heritage is far more important than some bastards trying to appropriate it.
Are Asians the nazis because swastikas are all over the place in their temples?
Also, take a look at US mil tattoos - stars (fucking commies), eagles (fucking nazis), crosses (fucking nazis), symbols defining a number of killed enemies (fucking misanthropes), and so on.
That’s why actions speak louder than words or symbols.
So how do you define a nazi? How do you define a nazi regiment? Can it have nonwhites as recruits? Can it train with nonwhite instructors? What are its duties as a nazi regiment?
And to be fair. You're saying having extremists in an army = supporting the extremism and making exclusive regiments for them
but...
One in five applicants to the white supremacist group Patriot Front claimed to hold current or former ties to the US military, according to leaked documents published and reviewed by the Southern Poverty Law Center and alternative media collective Unicorn Riot.
Does it mean the U.S. army is a bunch of nazis?
**This post was edited on Nov 18th 2022 at 4:09:50am
sashkoAnd to be fair. You're saying having extremists in an army = supporting the extremism and making exclusive regiments for them
but...
One in five applicants to the white supremacist group Patriot Front claimed to hold current or former ties to the US military, according to leaked documents published and reviewed by the Southern Poverty Law Center and alternative media collective Unicorn Riot.
Does it mean the U.S. army is a bunch of nazis?
**This post was edited on Nov 18th 2022 at 4:09:50am
Ex military members being part of a non state sponsored extremist groups =\= state sponsored extremist groups.
'in 2010, Biletsky (founder of azov) claimed it was Ukraine’s national mission to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade…against semite-led untermenschen (subhumans)'
Sorry for what's happening in your country but if you're looking for captain save-a-ho to support the fight I ain't it chief.
ASSholebomber22Ex military members being part of a non state sponsored extremist groups =\= state sponsored extremist groups.
'in 2010, Biletsky (founder of azov) claimed it was Ukraine’s national mission to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade…against semite-led untermenschen (subhumans)'
Sorry for what's happening in your country but if you're looking for captain save-a-ho to support the fight I ain't it chief.
One more perfect example of the westplaining here - the guy tells his opinion about something he discovered in February this year and makes a judgment by the photos taken 9-8 years ago (when Azov and other paramilitary regiments weren’t even part of official armed forces), like nothing ever changed during these years.
When the war started (I mean March 2014, not February 2022), paramilitary regiments were formed to help the regular Army. It was a private project of Ukraine oligarchs. Part of their personnel was indeed far-right, that’s true. There was the infamous Tornado battalion - the real bastards. Their war crimes forced our government to do something with private armies and make the government the only control center of armed forces. In November 2014, all these paramilitaries (except Tornado, they were an actual criminal gang) were integrated into our newly formed National Guard of Ukraine. During the integration, most extremists were kicked out of regiments, and everyone who participated in war crimes was sentenced. That’s why Biletsky left Azov - you can’t participate in any political movement while serving in the armed forces.
And that’s why the guy from the first photo (aka Malar) also couldn’t be found as active-duty personnel until the full-scale invasion started.
Fast forward to the current days. During the last 8 years, Azov has grown and counts around 1000 recruits. Most of them are residents of Mariupol and nearby cities. This area is unique in terms of culture - there live ethnic Greeks, Turks, Azerbaijanis, Armenians, Georgians, and other small nations from the Caucasus. Do you really think having such background and all these represented in the battalion is a good ground for nazism?
Also, please tell me what extremist actions Azov’s active duty personnel made. Name a few. I bet you can’t because, once again, as a soldier of the UAF, you can’t participate in any political movement here in Ukraine.
Look, I won’t deny that there are far right in the UAF. But the armed forces of the country are a representation of society. You can erase far right from the army until you erase them from society.
As with any other country in the world, we have far rights. And, of course, part of them serve in the army, like in any other military.
By the way, the guy from the first photo has been a social activist for the last 5 years. You can believe it or not, but the group Gonor (he’s a part of it) has done a lot of good things helping local communities fight the developer companies against illegal builds.
TL;Dr, when the war started in 2014, oligarchs created small private regiments to help the official armed forces. They weren’t sponsored or supplied by our government. In November 2014, paramilitary groups were integrated into the official armed forces. During the reform, all extremists were kicked out, and all war criminals were sentenced. Now Azov counts 1000 rectories, most of them being Mariupol area residents of different ethics. What makes them Nazis?
P.S. Azov is 1000 recruits. Before the full scale, there was 250k active duty personnel in UAF. Even if we count all Azov as nazis - it’s less than 0.5% of nazis in our army.
ASSholebomber22Ex military members being part of a non state sponsored extremist groups =\= state sponsored extremist groups.
'in 2010, Biletsky (founder of azov) claimed it was Ukraine’s national mission to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade…against semite-led untermenschen (subhumans)'
Sorry for what's happening in your country but if you're looking for captain save-a-ho to support the fight I ain't it chief.
Although I thought the first photo was Malar, I rechecked his Instagram profile. And I can't find any evidence that it's his neck.
And how can you tell that Azov soldiers are in any photo except the last one? It’s some random far-rights, maybe Ukrainians, maybe not.
sashkoOne more perfect example of the westplaining here - the guy tells his opinion about something he discovered in February this year and makes a judgment by the photos taken 9-8 years ago (when Azov and other paramilitary regiments weren’t even part of official armed forces), like nothing ever changed during these years.
When the war started (I mean March 2014, not February 2022), paramilitary regiments were formed to help the regular Army. It was a private project of Ukraine oligarchs. Part of their personnel was indeed far-right, that’s true. There was the infamous Tornado battalion - the real bastards. Their war crimes forced our government to do something with private armies and make the government the only control center of armed forces. In November 2014, all these paramilitaries (except Tornado, they were an actual criminal gang) were integrated into our newly formed National Guard of Ukraine. During the integration, most extremists were kicked out of regiments, and everyone who participated in war crimes was sentenced. That’s why Biletsky left Azov - you can’t participate in any political movement while serving in the armed forces.
And that’s why the guy from the first photo (aka Malar) also couldn’t be found as active-duty personnel until the full-scale invasion started.
Fast forward to the current days. During the last 8 years, Azov has grown and counts around 1000 recruits. Most of them are residents of Mariupol and nearby cities. This area is unique in terms of culture - there live ethnic Greeks, Turks, Azerbaijanis, Armenians, Georgians, and other small nations from the Caucasus. Do you really think having such background and all these represented in the battalion is a good ground for nazism?
Also, please tell me what extremist actions Azov’s active duty personnel made. Name a few. I bet you can’t because, once again, as a soldier of the UAF, you can’t participate in any political movement here in Ukraine.
Look, I won’t deny that there are far right in the UAF. But the armed forces of the country are a representation of society. You can erase far right from the army until you erase them from society.
As with any other country in the world, we have far rights. And, of course, part of them serve in the army, like in any other military.
By the way, the guy from the first photo has been a social activist for the last 5 years. You can believe it or not, but the group Gonor (he’s a part of it) has done a lot of good things helping local communities fight the developer companies against illegal builds.
TL;Dr, when the war started in 2014, oligarchs created small private regiments to help the official armed forces. They weren’t sponsored or supplied by our government. In November 2014, paramilitary groups were integrated into the official armed forces. During the reform, all extremists were kicked out, and all war criminals were sentenced. Now Azov counts 1000 rectories, most of them being Mariupol area residents of different ethics. What makes them Nazis?
P.S. Azov is 1000 recruits. Before the full scale, there was 250k active duty personnel in UAF. Even if we count all Azov as nazis - it’s less than 0.5% of nazis in our army.
These were pulled from documentary video from 2017, not 8-9 years ago.
And you absolutely can stop extremism in a military context by not funding literal extremist military units. It's the difference between fringe randos and state sponsored nazism.
The amount of justifications you make is absolutely absurd, there's no reason this shouldn't be condemned 100% and not accepted by any.
Y'all are like scary retarded if you're down with the nazis in Ukraine in any capacity. Like take a step back and evaluate what you're arguing for, for fucks sake. Y'all blow my fucking mind.
I guess China needs to liberate the USA then, to help us with our nazi problem.
sounds crazy right? So if China sends millions to the states to help us with our nazi problem, it’s philanthropy, not an invasion. Good guys doin gods work…
I got curious. What the fuck is the last photo. Like a pinnacle of Russian propaganda - Azov, NATO, and nazi swastika on some odd flag - I never saw a banner with the swastika and a white stripe in the middle. And everything is in the same place.
You also think it's funny, don’t you?
After some research, I found that the photo is shared only by russian media. And the black color of the swastika has the same level of noise as the black boxes on some soldiers' faces. Isn’t it odd?
It's also strange that this or similar swastika banners could only be found in two photos with Azov soldiers and a shot with the bus along with the trump supporter banner, although it differs from the one on the Azov photo.
Appears to be fake. Rumors it was Austrian flag, that's why there are NATO flag on the left.
ASSholebomber22These were pulled from documentary video from 2017, not 8-9 years ago.
And you absolutely can stop extremism in a military context by not funding literal extremist military units. It's the difference between fringe randos and state sponsored nazism.
The amount of justifications you make is absolutely absurd, there's no reason this shouldn't be condemned 100% and not accepted by any.
Once again, give at least one good piece of evidence about the Ukraine government funding nazis. But don’t use russian sources - the photo with soldiers is from russian media that appeared in 2015. There isn't any valid source of this shot
And as I said earlier, some of the members of paramilitary regiments were far-right - but not all of them. After units became part of the official forces - all extremists were forced to quit them.
ASSholebomber22Y'all are like scary retarded if you're down with the nazis in Ukraine in any capacity. Like take a step back and evaluate what you're arguing for, for fucks sake. Y'all blow my fucking mind.
I find it fascinating that you call someone a nazi but can't even define what a nazi is. Like russians talking about Ukrainians - they are nazis, fascists, and benderevtsi. But can't even elaborate on what all these labels mean. And can't give any proof for their words.
sashkoI find it fascinating that you call someone a nazi but can't even define what a nazi is. Like russians talking about Ukrainians - they are nazis, fascists, and benderevtsi. But can't even elaborate on what all these labels mean. And can't give any proof for their words.
theLiquorI guess China needs to liberate the USA then, to help us with our nazi problem.
sounds crazy right? So if China sends millions to the states to help us with our nazi problem, it’s philanthropy, not an invasion. Good guys doin gods work…
ASSholebomber22I want the US to stop sticking their dick into everything russia sticks its dick in. We have no place being world police.
You can't just say 'I don't condone Russia' but also not expect anyone to respond to their bullshit. The USA isn't going to go back to being some 'isolationist country' (as if it ever fucking was - reality check to anyone who thinks that way, it has absolutely NEVER been isolationist - even when in the 17th century)
I get it, you don't like the USA playing world policeman, but when there are belligerent authoritarian fucksticks like Putin going around invading people, there need to be some consequences or else where does it end? We have seen time and time again what happens when you appease a dictator - they don't stop, and the inevitable war becomes far more destructive and expensive than if you are proactive and cut it off at the knees.
Besides, in regards to Ukraine, it isn't just the USA and NATO... Just about everyone is getting in on this whether its sanctions or equipment.
ASSholebomber22https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/azov-battalion#_ftn8 read it all here chief. I'm done with you if you want to put your blinders on.
I read most of the report. I find it strange when the author says about the National corpus - a separate organization formed by the kicked members of a paramilitary group and calls it as “Azov movement” instead of using its official name. It looks like the author deliberately tries to use the UAF Azov regiment in the report and tie it to the far-right group.
Also another odd is about foreign fighters. Foreigners can’t join NGU (Azov became part of it in November 2014). The report says that foreign fighters joined Azov in late December and provided as sources articles written in June-July 2014. Isn’t it strange?
And the most iconic quote from the report
The Soufan Center reported that between 2014-2019 approximately 17,000 people from 50 countries – including the United States – traveled to fight in Ukraine. However, it is hard to determine how many specifically fought with Azov. Over 13,000 of these entered the war on the pro-Russian side, 12,000 of whom were Russians themselves
My unofficial translation of this block - we don’t know how many nazis there were, but we assume - someone for real fought for Azov. Proofs at the same level as - believe me, my friend told me.
I can’t take that profile for real. It deliberately messes up the names, it quotes articles written before the date it’s being used as a source (written in July, mentioned as a source for something happened in December).
And it didn’t give any evidence of Azov active duty soldiers being nazi.
But let me reiterate, can the so-called nazi regiment have Jews or any nonwhites as recruiters? By my definition of nazi - it can’t. But it has.
Can nazis take training from black instructors? They can’t. But Azov does.
ASSholebomber22I want the US to stop sticking their dick into everything russia sticks its dick in. We have no place being world police.
It’s not a simple act of being a world policeman — the U.S. has an obligation to Ukraine to help keep our state independent within our borders.
Ukraine had the third-largest nuclear weapon arsenal after gaining independence from USSR.
We signed a security agreement with the USA, UK, and russia in 1994. Ukraine disarmed all nuclear weapons in exchange for state security. It was the Budapest memorandum
As you can see, the USA and the UK do what they should according to the document they signed 28 years ago.
And russia proved that its sign under any document didn’t worth anything.
