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A serious discussion about Pivots

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skierman_jack
Posts: 1671 - Karma: 17,538
A little background: I have been skiing park for 4 seasons now. In that time I’ve rode Griffins, Jesters, Attacks, and of course pivots. I’m riding pivots on my daily driver park skis right now.

recently I’ve noticed this surge in demand for pivots and I’ve received some ridiculous offers for my battered and conglomerated Frankenstein pivots. I want to shed some light on the truth about pivots and why they are not maybe all they are hyped to be

Pivots are the BMW of bindings: they’re still just a car, but they have some luxuries that people desire. They are also really expensive and tend to break down more than the usual car and cost you a lot when they do. I currently own 3 pairs of pivots: 18s, fks 185s, and some older 12s. Of those 6 heels and 6 toes, I have 1 working set. The rest are for parts. That is the reality of owning pivots more than a couple seasons old. They will break and it will ruin your day. Mine broke again on Sunday and yes they are properly set up. Oh and if you’ve ever hiked with pivots you know they are a pain in the ass.

the Tyrolia Attack is like a Honda Accord. Nicer than people think, cheaper, and about 95% of the BMW. It will also run forever and when it breaks it will be easy and cheap to fix.

pivots are great bindings. They do what a binding should. The release feels consistent and the feedback from the ski is great. But they are not the end all be all. they have plenty of flaws including their price.

I get that there is this status around pivots. They look really cool and they have cool color ways and they are the “top tier” of bindings. But Tyrolia and Marker have been catching up with new colorways. And really there’s not too much a pivot gives you that any other cannot

As with everything: focus on skiing and not the gear on your feet. I shouldn’t have kids offering me 300 bucks for my excuse of pivot 18s just because they’re pivot 18s. Bindings are bindings. As long as you get good quality ones they will never hold you back. If anyone reading this is holding out for a pair of pivots: I recommend you just grab some Tyrolia attacks. You will not be disappointed at all. They will be just as good and cheaper

**This thread was edited on Jan 4th 2022 at 11:37:44am
Jan 4 2022 11:37AM
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BigPurpleSkiSuit
Posts: 9337 - Karma: 68,195
IsaacNW82I could rant about bindings for hours. But I'll try to keep it short-ish. First of all, I would like to say that I strongly believe that ski style plays a huge role in what bindings pre-release for you and what bindings don't. I do think generally Marker Jesters and Pivots are the best at not pre-releasing, followed by Griffons and Attacks, but this could be unique to my style. I find STH's, Squires, and Axial/SPX borderline unskiable, but again, that's a personal anecdote. If you have these and love them, you do you, but after ejecting EVERY big landing on my STH's at DIN 12+ (normally ski 8ish) and breaking the heel piece within 15 days of skiing I just can't recommend these.

When it comes to knee safety I have to mention the research done by Rick Howell suggesting a normal male skier on a normal 2-mode binding is expected to tear an ACL with the right crash at DIN 4. It's kinda complicated to explain but basically bindings aren't designed to prevent ACL tears, they are designed to prevent Tib/Fib fractures, which they do well. Ironically Pin bindings are almost the opposite, they are quite unsafe for Tib/fib fractures but surprisingly better for ACL's (reminder: Tib/fib fracture is a worse injury than a torn ACL; it is generally accepted that alpine bindings are safer than pin bindings).

Testing pin bindings for ACL and Tib/Fib safety:
https://skimo.co/tech-binding-release-testing

Sugarbush study, the foremost study on skiing injuries claims that there is little to no link on binding settings and ACL injuries:
https://blog.sugarbush.com/magazine/the-sugarbush-study/

So IMO debating the ACL safety between a Pivot set at 8 and a Jester set at 9 seems rather superfluous given that. I'd say whatever binding you're not having massive pre-ejection issues on with a reasonable DIN setting is about as good as you can get rn.

I do also want to add Pivot's like to destroy skis. The rumour is that its because they have a very narrow bolt pattern that sometimes misses the harder wood stringers meant to aid bolt retention.

Honestly I generally dislike all ski bindings. They all kinda suck. It is what it is.


when you say big what do you mean by that? Just curious as someone who has STH and while I don't go BIG BIG, I certainly have gone what I think most skiers would consider big (25-30 ft drops on pow days) I also do try to avoid flat landings like the plague nowadays
Jan 5 2022 12:40AM
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bennwithtwons
Posts: 1359 - Karma: 10,816
What specifically though? What is actually failing (excluding ripped out brakes, which I think is pretty inevitable)? That’s cool you found some bomb proof binders. I’m just curious because I’ve been skiing park for 20 years and have never had a binding fail, aside from the aforementioned brake issues that we’ve all had.
skiP.E.I.Learning how to land switch breaks bindings. Going big on firm days breaks bindings. Skiing 4-7 days a week 20 weeks a year wears bindings out. The first 4 pairs of bindings I had all broke irreparably in what seemed like a pretty short time, because they were 10 and 12 DIN bindings full of plastic that were designed to be skiied 10 days a year outside the park. The first pair of bindings I had that didn't break are some Salomon 977 Equipe that are as old as me. They're twice as heavy as any other alpine binding I've used but the reliability is unbeatable.
Jan 5 2022 6:41AM
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skiP.E.I.
Posts: 7821 - Karma: 21,842
bennwithtwonsWhat specifically though? What is actually failing (excluding ripped out brakes, which I think is pretty inevitable)? That’s cool you found some bomb proof binders. I’m just curious because I’ve been skiing park for 20 years and have never had a binding fail, aside from the aforementioned brake issues that we’ve all had.

base plates cracking and bending, toe wings tearing off, heelpiece breaking in half.
Jan 5 2022 8:58AM
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Icant_kfed
Posts: 1274 - Karma: 11,538
bennwithtwonsWhat specifically though? What is actually failing (excluding ripped out brakes, which I think is pretty inevitable)? That’s cool you found some bomb proof binders. I’m just curious because I’ve been skiing park for 20 years and have never had a binding fail, aside from the aforementioned brake issues that we’ve all had.


Eve broken the heel piece off of a pair of squires once, they were demos tho so idk if that really counts
Jan 5 2022 9:21AM
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bennwithtwons
Posts: 1359 - Karma: 10,816
Haha damn dude you’ve had some issues. That’s crazy business.
skiP.E.I.base plates cracking and bending, toe wings tearing off, heelpiece breaking in half.
Jan 5 2022 9:48AM
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RAcecARman
Posts: 196 - Karma: 1,801
curious as to what parts you broke and if you bought them new or used? My first pair of orange fks 18s are so fucking bomb they’re still releasing fine after 10 years of love and the only thing I’ve had to replace is the brake once. my newer look 18s are in the same boat, only one afd replacement. Idk how kids break these all the time, my fat ass goes big and pivots are the only binding I haven’t had durability issues with.
Jan 5 2022 9:50AM
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RAcecARman
Posts: 196 - Karma: 1,801
skierman_jackto clarify: I do agree there’s a difference. But it’s not going to change the way you ski. Pivots are a nice to have not a need to have.

I feel in the case of young skiers getting into the sport as well there no need for such an investment. I see so many 10-16 year olds at my home mountain who over binding themselves.

Also it 100% will change how a ski rides and in turn what you have to do to make them ski. Attacks wide ass afd makes them much easier to initiate turns on, the pivots low profile pattern gives you the most real feel of a ski but with the amount of elastic travel they have they feel slower than attacks/griffons. Bring a pair of your whips with pivots and a pair with something else next time you ride and see for yourself.
Jan 5 2022 9:58AM
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IsaacNW82
Posts: 769 - Karma: 6,693
BigPurpleSkiSuitwhen you say big what do you mean by that? Just curious as someone who has STH and while I don't go BIG BIG, I certainly have gone what I think most skiers would consider big (25-30 ft drops on pow days) I also do try to avoid flat landings like the plague nowadays


Probably similar size you; 8ft+ on hardpack or 20ft+ in powder. Perhaps you are just smoother than me, I do regularly end up in flat-ish landings. But the harder the conditions the worse the pre-ejections were. Also mounted on powder skis for what its worth
Jan 5 2022 10:30AM
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BigPurpleSkiSuit
Posts: 9337 - Karma: 68,195
Nah, im watching your vids and you're sending harder than I am. Maybe just a bad pair or something with the settings? I feel very very secure on mine
IsaacNW82Probably similar size you; 8ft+ on hardpack or 20ft+ in powder. Perhaps you are just smoother than me, I do regularly end up in flat-ish landings. But the harder the conditions the worse the pre-ejections were. Also mounted on powder skis for what its worth
Jan 5 2022 11:45AM
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IsaacNW82
Posts: 769 - Karma: 6,693
BigPurpleSkiSuitNah, im watching your vids and you're sending harder than I am. Maybe just a bad pair or something with the settings? I feel very very secure on mine


Wish I had the answers. I have heard they are oddly particular about settings so it's possible that was a factor, they were checked by a shop with my boots but I can't completely rule it out. FWIW Sean Pettit loved STH's and skis way harder than both of us combined.
Jan 5 2022 12:08PM
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KooK_Luke
Posts: 93 - Karma: 969
betzAs a dude who skies minimal park and has been on either markers, attacks, or STH bindings for his whole life, and just got on pivots this season, I gotta say I do notice the difference. All my other bindings I have to set to at least 9 DIN or else my bindings will pop out just losing my balance for a sec, but the pivots are much better at not pre releasing and mine are only set to 8 DIN. They had an uncanny ability to just release when they were supposed to, and my other bindings especially when riding in powder would pre release left and right. Otherwise they do seem a little finicky to get on sometimes and don't have the same powerful click in that STH's or attacks have, but the tendency not to pre release definitely puts them a leg up on other bindings. I'll just have to see how they hold up over time.

Out of the other bindings the attacks are definitely my favorite though. For the price and that it's stupid easy to adjust and it fits a pretty wide range of boot sizes so I can let my friends try my skis out. Pivots are nearly mounted to your exact boot size with very little adjustment which can pose some issues.


Glad it works this way for you, it’s the opposite for me given my experience. I have always found pivots to eject at strange times when they shouldn’t have. I also needed to run my pivots at a higher din than other bindings. I guess it depends on the person
Jan 5 2022 12:18PM
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Bended_Toenail
Posts: 1417 - Karma: 10,220
I have Attacks, Pivots and STHs, the sths and pivots feel almost identical and tbh the only plus to the pivots over sth is there compatibility with cast

The attacks are great and easy to use and ridiculously light but they dont feel the same as the sths and pivots
Jan 5 2022 12:40PM
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betz
Posts: 250 - Karma: 2,041
KooK_LukeGlad it works this way for you, it’s the opposite for me given my experience. I have always found pivots to eject at strange times when they shouldn’t have. I also needed to run my pivots at a higher din than other bindings. I guess it depends on the person


I think pivots might be more sensitive to snow on the bindings than something like the STH's.

Also I feel like this whole thread a lot of people's issues could be the adjustment or the wear on their boots. There are a lot of factors really... For me it was basically new pivots vs brand new attacks though I noticed there was a bit of a gap under the toe on the attacks. I want to give the benefit of the doubt to the ski shop, they are super reputable... but shouldn't you just barely be able to get a business card to slide under the toe? So hey even for me, maybe the adjustment on my attacks were off and that's why it was pre releasing a bunch.
Jan 5 2022 12:44PM
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WoFlowz
Posts: 7896 - Karma: 63,930
Love my Ps and wouldn’t trade them for the world. They look great, feel great and haven’t had any issues with pre releasing or parts other then slight bends in the brake which was easily remedied. That being said, they might be the last pair of pivots I have. Sure they’re great but I’d never pay more than 150$ for pivots new, or really any binding for that matter. I could 100percent be skiing a Attack or STH rn but I was given the opportunity to get some pivots for a steal brand new. STH look pretty damn swag also, and marker jesters hurt more to land backseat on or backslap than any other binding
Jan 5 2022 2:33PM
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soupcan
Posts: 364 - Karma: 562
This is actually a really interesting thread.

If you were able to hide the bindings somehow and get people to ski a pivot, an STH, a Jester, and an Attack back to back to back. I bet most skiers at this level really could not tell the difference. I bet there is a whole lot of placebo going on here. Maybe I am wrong but who knows.
Jan 5 2022 2:49PM
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halfwatt
Posts: 180 - Karma: 2,225
a new layer of core
Jan 5 2022 3:13PM
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galardogod
Posts: 1698 - Karma: 5,209
I am going to throw this out there. I take it a step further . I am 5’6 190 ( I know I’m fat leave me alone) and I ski marker squires and Armada wardens . A lot of people do not need a 14 din binding. I have saved a ton of money and weight by doing this and I have no plan to stop. I never have release issues and they do what they are supposed to. I have considered pivots before just for looks but I can’t bring myself to spend the money when bindings half the cost work fine for me.
Jan 5 2022 9:30PM
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tri_photo
Posts: 1530 - Karma: 7,195
mrk127Pivots are the most overrated piece of ski gear to ever exist.

Change my mind


Bentchetlers
Jan 5 2022 10:13PM
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hippystinx
Posts: 937 - Karma: 171
the only bone I have ever broken as a result of skiing, I was riding the black and gold rossignol fks 14s from back in the day. I was on a week trip to winterpark, was having a great time hitting the dark territory park, was my first time in a "private park". Day 4 went to front flip off a big party box and i landed way back seat, and the toe obviously doesn't release vertically. Ended up fracturing my fibula. For the first 5 years of my skiing I swore by fks/p14/18s. At some point I grabbed a pair of the attack bindings for super cheap of proform, and was surprised by both their lightweight and release characteristics. Durability wasn't bad. At some point grabbed a pair of sth12s and 16s wasnt super impressed. moved to the warden binding, and have been a big fan for 5 seasons. Still on my second pair. bomber binding, 13 din. Having bindings that release reliably and predicable is 100% more favorable to me than the p18 rattraps, thats going to tear your knee. Just my 2cents, of skiing 60+day seasons for over 10 years.
Jan 5 2022 10:37PM
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elm.
Posts: 1492 - Karma: 13,497
galardogodI am going to throw this out there. I take it a step further . I am 5’6 190 ( I know I’m fat leave me alone) and I ski marker squires and Armada wardens . A lot of people do not need a 14 din binding. I have saved a ton of money and weight by doing this and I have no plan to stop. I never have release issues and they do what they are supposed to. I have considered pivots before just for looks but I can’t bring myself to spend the money when bindings half the cost work fine for me.


Durability is why. Squires aren't even in the same ballpark as pivots/attacks/jesters/sth's
Jan 5 2022 10:58PM
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mrk127
Posts: 1803 - Karma: 16,312
tri_photoBentchetlers

Haha yea
Bentchetler 100s with pivots is maximum overrated
Jan 6 2022 11:28AM
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MaimHelp
Posts: 1721 - Karma: 13,579
mrk127Haha yea
Bentchetler 100s with pivots is maximum overrated


What would be a good ski similar to bentchetler 100s lol. Need some skis that I can keep the edges sharp for when I ski with family outside of the park
Jan 6 2022 9:21PM
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nOtyRmOm
Posts: 163 - Karma: 1,778
MaimHelpWhat would be a good ski similar to bentchetler 100s lol. Need some skis that I can keep the edges sharp for when I ski with family outside of the park


just have a designated left and right ski or sum left on left right on right outside park right on left left on right for park. that way the inside edge stays sharp for carving and shi
Jan 7 2022 10:52PM
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MaimHelp
Posts: 1721 - Karma: 13,579
nOtyRmOm123just have a designated left and right ski or sum left on left right on right outside park right on left left on right for park. that way the inside edge stays sharp for carving and shi


That don’t work when you slide both ways hella and your park skis are noodle danollies with extreme rocker
Jan 8 2022 9:51PM
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