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Ski boot flex (and fit)

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PeaHead96
Posts: 21 - Karma: 75
Just to preface this thread. I know that going to a boot fitter is the overall most suggested and recommended (for good reason) advice for getting boots that fit correctly. But I live in the middle of BFE and I unfortunately do not have that luxury. There is a ski/bike shop about 2 hours away that does heat molding on boots, but I’m quite certain that they don’t get much more advanced than that. Also the selection of boots they have is lacking and I would most likely need to order in advance. But on to my (2-ish) questions.

A little bit of background on myself.. I’m 6’1” and weigh 195-200 lbs with an athletic build. 25 years old and I’ve only been skiing one year. Although, even though last winter was my first winter skiing, I got around 30 days of skiing in. I don’t know if that’s a lot, your judgment call. But only after last winter I felt like I improved substantially, quite quickly. I was skiing the entire mountain with confidence, but I wasn’t absolutely bombing the black runs or hucking any cliffs. About a third of my days last winter we’re spent in the backcountry. And I skied a 120 flex (Tecnica Zero G Tour Scout) boot, for in bounds and out bounds. I’ve never owned a true alpine boot.

In order to give myself a better experience at the resort, and give my touring boots some more life. I’m looking to invest in some alpine boots.

Although I know that flexes differ from boot to boot, and a 120 flex touring boot is not as stiff as a 120 flex alpine boot. I’m having some trouble picking flex. Local shop down the road sells some ski boots, but the shop doesn’t have any boot fitters. I tried on a pair of Atomic Hawx Ultra Xtd 130 and the 120s. Because they don’t sell the alpine version (Haux Ultra 130 and 120). After strapping up both of the 130s, standing in the shop I felt like I could barely flex them forward. They moved a little bit, but not much. I did the same with the 120s, and I could flex them forward a bit more, but I wasn’t entirely sure if I was flexing them forward enough. They didn’t have a 110 flex to try or I would have. I also felt like since I rode a 120 flex tecnica last year that there shouldn’t be reason to downgrade.


So it’s quite confusing for me what to pick. Without a reliable bootfitter and without many boots at my disposal to try. With my height and weight I would think that a 120-130 flex boot would be a good fit. But I wasn’t able to flex the 130 atomic touring boot that well (to my knowledge at least). And the 120 was a little easier, but I’m not sure if I was seriously flexing it enough.


Also to add to all of this, I ordered a pair of Tecnica Mach1 LV 130s. I’m already suspecting that they might be too stiff for me. But we’ll see when I get them. I’m more interested in the fit of the boot actually. I know that I need a low last boot as my last is quite narrow and measuring in at 97 and 99mm. And I have ridiculously small ankles and chicken legs. So yeah, the whole flex thing is perplexing me without a bootfitter to look at me. I’m decently heavy and kinda tall… but I’ve only been skiing for one year. Also I’ve read that this “ankle dorsiflexion” is a factor for flex. I’m not sure if mine is good or bad. I can bend my knees over to the tops of my toes (not past the toes) without my heel coming off the ground. But if I try to drop into a deep squat with a shoulder width stance, I would fall flat on my ass if I tried to do that without lifting my heels up.


The question about sizing is pretty hard for people to answer over the internet, but I’ll try to explain. My tecnica zero g tour’s are a 29.5. They’re great and roomy. Feels great for touring. They don’t feel loose or anything though. But I’ve read and heard that I should get something a bit tighter for an alpine boot. When I put my foot down on the fancy scale at the store, it reads my big toe stopping perfectly at the 29.0. I tried on those atomics I mentioned above in the 28.0/28.5 and the 29.0/29.5. The 29.0/29.5 boot had my toes touching the liner when standing straight up, but when I leaned forward in the boot my toes had plenty of room and weren’t touching the liner. The 28.0/28.5 were pretty tight and pressing on toes when I stood upright, but when I leaned forward it felt decently better… but my toes were still touching the end of the liner. So I’m just not sure how tight a boot should feel prior to heat treatment. Like I said, I most likely have to order ahead of time, and yes heat holding is an option for me.

And Jesus Christ I can see now that I wrote way too much for a forum thread. But if anyone can give me some helpful tips, that would be greatly appreciated.

**This thread was edited on Nov 24th 2021 at 1:41:06pm
Nov 24 2021 1:39PM
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WoFIowz
Posts: 9788 - Karma: 72,405
30 days is respectful for sure. Most years I can only get 15-20 days in and I feel like I have monumental leaps in skill each year. I can only imagine what more days would do 🙄.

For reference on the sizing, my feet measure exactly 27 but I'm in 26. If I were a racer I probably would be in an even smaller boot. It sounds like your fit is decent but again this is all online so take all this with a grain of salt.

Since you're making compromises on boot selection, I would highly recommend you at least get custom footbeds. People here can probably attest to good options for you.

Just my two cents but for the whole flex thing, it sounds like you have average ankle flexion. Your weight is plenty higher than half the twigs riding 140 flex on this forum. The forward lean differences between boots can also play a factor in your ability to flex. Also I know we all talk about flexing the boot in a shop, but flexing in a boot on flat ground, outside of a binding, is gonna be totally different than when going downhill, locked into skis, and with all sorts of downward momentum the moment you flex down into a carve. It's way easier to flex boots in actual skiing than in an store, but some might disagree with me on that. There's no scientific studies saying you gotta flex your boot in a shop; it's all just expert opinion/general concensus.

Anyway carry on. I'm sure there's some boot fitters that can help out.

@onenerdykid
Nov 24 2021 2:02PM
3 0
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PeaHead96
Posts: 21 - Karma: 75
HypeBeast30 days is respectful for sure. Most years I can only get 15-20 days in and I feel like I have monumental leaps in skill each year. I can only imagine what more days would do 🙄.

For reference on the sizing, my feet measure exactly 27 but I'm in 26. If I were a racer I probably would be in an even smaller boot. It sounds like your fit is decent but again this is all online so take all this with a grain of salt.

Since you're making compromises on boot selection, I would highly recommend you at least get custom footbeds. People here can probably attest to good options for you.

Just my two cents but for the whole flex thing, it sounds like you have average ankle flexion. Your weight is plenty higher than half the twigs riding 140 flex on this forum. The forward lean differences between boots can also play a factor in your ability to flex. Also I know we all talk about flexing the boot in a shop, but flexing in a boot on flat ground, outside of a binding, is gonna be totally different than when going downhill, locked into skis, and with all sorts of downward momentum the moment you flex down into a carve. It's way easier to flex boots in actual skiing than in an store, but some might disagree with me on that. There's no scientific studies saying you gotta flex your boot in a shop; it's all just expert opinion/general concensus.

Anyway carry on. I'm sure there's some boot fitters that can help out.

@onenerdykid


Thanks for the feedback man.

I do think I’m leaning towards getting the 28.0/28.5 Atomics. Or the 28.5 Tecnicas. Seems that most people will size down. I just don’t have that much experience with ski boot sizing as I’ve only had one pair or boots. I’m not a racer, and I have no intention on becoming one. But would like a more performance fit. As long as it doesn’t suck to wear them after they break in.


I already have custom footbeds for my touring boots. Night and day difference. I’ll get footbeds made for these boots too. The shop that can do that only sells touring boots though.

I’m somewhat surprised you say I have average ankle flexion. I’ve always thought that I maybe lacked that. For example, at the gym I find it somewhat difficult to maintain a good form and not fall backwards when doing back squats. But this obviously is pretty hard to discuss on a forum.

The whole thing about flexing some boots when you’re moving downhill on a pair of skis makes perfectly good sense to me. I’m a true believer in the “buy it nice or buy it twice” ideology. So I don’t mind shelling out the extra money for a more expensive boot with higher flex. I just don’t want to stop myself from progressing. I’ll probably be able to get in more than 30 days this winter I think. Looking to hit 40-45. Ski slope is 5 minutes from my house.


Also what are your thoughts on gripwalk? I can get either of these two boots I’m looking at for significantly cheaper without gripwalk. And I know I just said I subscribe to the “buy once, cry once” logic, but would I really need it? My bindings on my resort skis are gripwalk compatible.
Nov 24 2021 3:42PM
2 0
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kvan
Posts: 3085 - Karma: 1,225
Hey man glad to hear you're crushing it out there these are all great questions. As you alluded to, I would eventually sit down with a bootfitter. The advice we give you on here can certainly point you in the right direction but it really takes a trained eye to set you up properly. Let me know where you're based out of as it might be a good excuse to take a ski trip to an area that has reliable bootfitters.

Rule of thumb with flex is that if you can't flex them at room temp, you're not going to be able to flex them outside in the cold. I would take a stance with your feet shoulder width apart, knees slightly flexed, and drive your shins into the front of the boots. You're looking for the knees to be right in line with the toes. Here are the 2 extremes: If your knees are going far beyond this point and you're driving the cuff to the floor, they're not stiff enough. However, if you're flexing and the boot won't budge, you're not going to get the proper drive and rebound out of it on the hill, and would benefit from a softer boot. With all of that in mind I like your idea of starting out with boots on the stiffer side (120-130).

As far as sizing goes, a brannock device is a good place to start but a shell check is a much more accurate way to determine the full picture (there are many solid youtube videos on this). Take the liner out of the boot and place your foot in the shell with your longest toe gently touching the front and look at the spacing behind your heel. I'd aim for right around 3/4." As far as what you should feel in a new boot, a lot of bootfitters like to use handshake analogies to describe fit. You want it to fit like a firm confident handshake on every part of your foot and lower leg, without any biting or pinching feelings. You don't want to have the feeling like someone is grabbing your hand and crushing it to death but you also don't want it to feel like the wet noodle handshake either. With a fully straight leg your toe should make contact with the front of the boot, but by no means should be jammed. When you bend your knee and flex into the boot your toe should back off the front.

Hope this helps.
Nov 24 2021 4:29PM
6 0
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6656 - Karma: 10,862
Unfortunately, even though I'm happy you want to buy Atomic boots, doing this online will most likely set you up for failure. It's like trying to fix a car over the phone or figure out your toothache with your dentist by using pictures on WhatsApp. The only way to do it right is to see them in person. I know it sucks when you live far away from a proper boot-fitter, but without a boo-fitter who can see your foot in the shell, your chances of success start to dwindle pretty quickly. Another good option is get boots in the area where you go skiing because there are way more boot-fitters available once you get closer to the mountains.

I suspect that the Tecnica you ordered will be way too stiff for you if you aren't able to flex an Ultra XTD 130.

Whenever you try on a boot, always start with this check:
1. remove the liner from the shell
2. step into the bare shell with a thin ski sock on
3. slide your foot to the front so your toes just barely touch
4. examine the space behind your heel.

1cm = high performance alpine fit that will not feel good out of the box. This type of fit will require stretching & grinding to feel comfortable, but that 100% means having a boot-fitter at your disposal.

2cm = normal alpine fit, and most likely the tightest you want to go if you are touring.

3cm = problematically too big, never buy this size
Nov 25 2021 4:56AM
3 0
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PeaHead96
Posts: 21 - Karma: 75
el_kyleHey man glad to hear you're crushing it out there these are all great questions. As you alluded to, I would eventually sit down with a bootfitter. The advice we give you on here can certainly point you in the right direction but it really takes a trained eye to set you up properly. Let me know where you're based out of as it might be a good excuse to take a ski trip to an area that has reliable bootfitters.

Rule of thumb with flex is that if you can't flex them at room temp, you're not going to be able to flex them outside in the cold. I would take a stance with your feet shoulder width apart, knees slightly flexed, and drive your shins into the front of the boots. You're looking for the knees to be right in line with the toes. Here are the 2 extremes: If your knees are going far beyond this point and you're driving the cuff to the floor, they're not stiff enough. However, if you're flexing and the boot won't budge, you're not going to get the proper drive and rebound out of it on the hill, and would benefit from a softer boot. With all of that in mind I like your idea of starting out with boots on the stiffer side (120-130).

As far as sizing goes, a brannock device is a good place to start but a shell check is a much more accurate way to determine the full picture (there are many solid youtube videos on this). Take the liner out of the boot and place your foot in the shell with your longest toe gently touching the front and look at the spacing behind your heel. I'd aim for right around 3/4." As far as what you should feel in a new boot, a lot of bootfitters like to use handshake analogies to describe fit. You want it to fit like a firm confident handshake on every part of your foot and lower leg, without any biting or pinching feelings. You don't want to have the feeling like someone is grabbing your hand and crushing it to death but you also don't want it to feel like the wet noodle handshake either. With a fully straight leg your toe should make contact with the front of the boot, but by no means should be jammed. When you bend your knee and flex into the boot your toe should back off the front.

Hope this helps.


I appreciate the advice man. But yeah, I've read a lot that if I can't even flex them in the store then there's no way I'll be able to flex them outside in the cold. The one extreme you mentioned of flexing my knees past my toes isn't honestly even possible without boots on. So I guess I have somewhat limited ankle dorsiflexion.

I seem to be on the perfect/maybe too big size when trying on a 29 or 29.5. And my feet are squeezed pretty nicely on a 28.5. It's not excruciating pain or anything, but my toes are still touching the liner when I bend forward.
Nov 25 2021 5:49AM
1 0
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PeaHead96
Posts: 21 - Karma: 75
onenerdykidUnfortunately, even though I'm happy you want to buy Atomic boots, doing this online will most likely set you up for failure. It's like trying to fix a car over the phone or figure out your toothache with your dentist by using pictures on WhatsApp. The only way to do it right is to see them in person. I know it sucks when you live far away from a proper boot-fitter, but without a boo-fitter who can see your foot in the shell, your chances of success start to dwindle pretty quickly. Another good option is get boots in the area where you go skiing because there are way more boot-fitters available once you get closer to the mountains.

I suspect that the Tecnica you ordered will be way too stiff for you if you aren't able to flex an Ultra XTD 130.

Whenever you try on a boot, always start with this check:
1. remove the liner from the shell
2. step into the bare shell with a thin ski sock on
3. slide your foot to the front so your toes just barely touch
4. examine the space behind your heel.

1cm = high performance alpine fit that will not feel good out of the box. This type of fit will require stretching & grinding to feel comfortable, but that 100% means having a boot-fitter at your disposal.

2cm = normal alpine fit, and most likely the tightest you want to go if you are touring.

3cm = problematically too big, never buy this size


Thanks for the good advice, I really do appreciate it. And unfortunately, being able to see a boot fitter is out of question for this season. I really do live in the middle of BFE. And my ski areas are in the middle of BFE. I live in Norway, and the closest legit boot fitter to me is a 2.5 hour plane ride; or 20 something odd hours by car (mountains and shit). I spoke earlier to a shop that does custom insoles, and they do heat molding on shells, but the person on the phone seemed hesitant when I asked if they were comfortable with toe punches. So I'm started to lean towards not going super small on size.

About the flex thing though. My friend has a size 31.5 Dalbello's with a listed 65 flex. At least 2 sizes too big for me. But I tried it on for fun and tried to flex it. And I actually wasn't able to crush it to the floor. And I'm 6'1" and around 200 lbs. That should be easy for me I think? I'm not weak or anything either. Being as humble as possible, I find myself to be a pretty active and fit person. Now, I will say that the boots were not very tight, and of course they were two sizes too big for me. So I don't know, super weird.

Looking into the Hawx Ultra 110 s now. It sucks I don't have the means to try all of these different flexes and fits at my disposal. But I've gotta work with what I've got.

Also, are the Hawx Ultra XTD's a tighter fit than the alpine Hawx Ultra's? I'd be willing to gamble on getting the smaller size Ultra if the non touring boot is any way ever so slightly bigger than what I tried on at the store (XTD).
Nov 25 2021 6:01AM
1 0
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6656 - Karma: 10,862
PeaHead96Thanks for the good advice, I really do appreciate it. And unfortunately, being able to see a boot fitter is out of question for this season. I really do live in the middle of BFE. And my ski areas are in the middle of BFE. I live in Norway, and the closest legit boot fitter to me is a 2.5 hour plane ride; or 20 something odd hours by car (mountains and shit). I spoke earlier to a shop that does custom insoles, and they do heat molding on shells, but the person on the phone seemed hesitant when I asked if they were comfortable with toe punches. So I'm started to lean towards not going super small on size.

About the flex thing though. My friend has a size 31.5 Dalbello's with a listed 65 flex. At least 2 sizes too big for me. But I tried it on for fun and tried to flex it. And I actually wasn't able to crush it to the floor. And I'm 6'1" and around 200 lbs. That should be easy for me I think? I'm not weak or anything either. Being as humble as possible, I find myself to be a pretty active and fit person. Now, I will say that the boots were not very tight, and of course they were two sizes too big for me. So I don't know, super weird.

Looking into the Hawx Ultra 110 s now. It sucks I don't have the means to try all of these different flexes and fits at my disposal. But I've gotta work with what I've got.

Also, are the Hawx Ultra XTD's a tighter fit than the alpine Hawx Ultra's? I'd be willing to gamble on getting the smaller size Ultra if the non touring boot is any way ever so slightly bigger than what I tried on at the store (XTD).


Having traveled through Sweden, I believe you when you say there is nothing around you. So I would say that here is the exception to the rule where you are going to have to learn a lot on your own and then try your best to get the closest approximation that you need. It might end up being expensive or not working in your favor, but I'm afraid that's the reality of your situation.

When you try on boots, definitely do the "shell check" that I detailed above. You can also do a similar thing for width and length but it's really hard without tools & doing it by yourself. But basically, if you foot is centered in the shell and your foot/ankle make contact with the shell, you will most likely need boot work in that area.

Another thing you should be aware of and also purchase is a set of custom footbeds. These do have to be made in person, by a boot-fitter and are the only way you can properly stabilize your foot inside the boot. This is super crucial for ensuring your foot does not move around while skiing and absolutely the first step before any shell modification (stretching or grinding) is done.
Nov 25 2021 7:05AM
2 0
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6656 - Karma: 10,862
PeaHead96Thanks for the good advice, I really do appreciate it. And unfortunately, being able to see a boot fitter is out of question for this season. I really do live in the middle of BFE. And my ski areas are in the middle of BFE. I live in Norway, and the closest legit boot fitter to me is a 2.5 hour plane ride; or 20 something odd hours by car (mountains and shit). I spoke earlier to a shop that does custom insoles, and they do heat molding on shells, but the person on the phone seemed hesitant when I asked if they were comfortable with toe punches. So I'm started to lean towards not going super small on size.

About the flex thing though. My friend has a size 31.5 Dalbello's with a listed 65 flex. At least 2 sizes too big for me. But I tried it on for fun and tried to flex it. And I actually wasn't able to crush it to the floor. And I'm 6'1" and around 200 lbs. That should be easy for me I think? I'm not weak or anything either. Being as humble as possible, I find myself to be a pretty active and fit person. Now, I will say that the boots were not very tight, and of course they were two sizes too big for me. So I don't know, super weird.

Looking into the Hawx Ultra 110 s now. It sucks I don't have the means to try all of these different flexes and fits at my disposal. But I've gotta work with what I've got.

Also, are the Hawx Ultra XTD's a tighter fit than the alpine Hawx Ultra's? I'd be willing to gamble on getting the smaller size Ultra if the non touring boot is any way ever so slightly bigger than what I tried on at the store (XTD).

Also sent you a PM.
Nov 25 2021 7:15AM
2 0
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CatdickBojangles
Posts: 6200 - Karma: 62,946
Fischer has a foot scan app that can help you find the measurements of your foot which can be very helpful since you are not near a boot fitter. It’s worth a try.
Nov 25 2021 9:54AM
2 0
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PeaHead96
Posts: 21 - Karma: 75
CatdickBojanglesFischer has a foot scan app that can help you find the measurements of your foot which can be very helpful since you are not near a boot fitter. It’s worth a try.


I’ve actually got a foot scan from a sporting store a while back, super helpful. I don’t think fit is honestly my biggest problem. More so is picking a correct flex. Started to realize that I have pretty terrible ankle dorsiflexion. Well at least I think I do.
Nov 27 2021 10:59AM
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