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hi_vis360
November, 2024

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Why do ski brands tweak the design of very popular models?

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406406406
Posts: 47 - Karma: 119
I am genuinely curious and uninformed, no hate intended. I get frustrated when I find an all-around great ski that myself and many others absolutely adore (looking at you 2017-18 ON3P Kartel 108’s), and then a year or two later it’s discontinued or the design is changed and I’m left thinking about how awesome it was.

If a ski is so wonderful and rides just about perfectly, why does it need to be changed? Why can’t it just stay on the market forever so I can buy a new pair every other year? Obviously the perfect ski is subjective, but the k108’s, for example, were just so fun in everything. (Source: me and my friends I guess)


Disclaimer: I have no business/marketing experience and am dumb.
Nov 18 2021 2:17PM
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BradFiAusNzCoCa
Posts: 7063 - Karma: 61,868
Usually, it’s to sell more skis
Nov 18 2021 3:11PM
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ericforman
Posts: 722 - Karma: 6,212
To sell more skis. Most people like new marketing jargon. You may not be like most people.
Nov 18 2021 3:11PM
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ASAPCarter
Posts: 918 - Karma: 10,359
It’s all a government conspiracy
Nov 18 2021 3:19PM
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CatdickBojangles
Posts: 6203 - Karma: 62,990
Pretty sure the Jeffrey is almost exactly the same as the kartel was besides the extra 2mm. Some small tweaks but probably stuff you would not notice.
Nov 18 2021 3:19PM
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ReturnToMonkey
Posts: 6416 - Karma: 69,669
CatdickBojanglesPretty sure the Jeffrey is almost exactly the same as the kartel was besides the extra 2mm. Some small tweaks but probably stuff you would not notice.

Different composite can have some noticable impacts. It's now thinner and stronger, so it's probably lighter. It has to change the stiffness profile although they likely designed the new layup so it is the same.
I can't really compare mine because my k108s were 171 and my j108s are 176, so the new ones are obviously heavier
Nov 18 2021 4:02PM
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beans*
Posts: 65 - Karma: 247
Kartel was Karl fostvedt sig model. He left on3p for k2 so I think that’s why but I might be wrong
Nov 18 2021 5:39PM
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hi_vis360
Posts: 5092 - Karma: 51,675
vishnu doesn't do this and I'm all for it
Nov 18 2021 5:42PM
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MaimHelp
Posts: 1721 - Karma: 13,597
hi_vis360vishnu doesn't do this and I'm all for it


older models had more flared tips, it's subtle but you can see watching old clips from when they first started. I heard they might change the rocker profile to the wets slightly for next year, but that is just folk lure at this point.

They also made tip protectors and shid
Nov 18 2021 5:59PM
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lilnoid666
Posts: 379 - Karma: 738
is the Jeffery similar to Kartel?
Nov 18 2021 6:27PM
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ReturnToMonkey
Posts: 6416 - Karma: 69,669
ButteryStix69is the Jeffery similar to Kartel?

Read my response above. It's exactly the same with a different composite layup. Instead of triaxial fiberglass [0°/±45°] and carbon fiber stringers individually laid [0°], the [0°] glass is replaced with carbon so it's a single composite and apparantly it bonds better to the core as well. So this makes it thinner and lighter while also stronger, but all of these -ers are probably barely noticable.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong pls

**This post was edited on Nov 18th 2021 at 7:56:46pm
Nov 18 2021 7:55PM
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Paul.
Posts: 1613 - Karma: 11,191
ButteryStix69is the Jeffery similar to Kartel?

It’s literally the same ski. It was originally known as the Jeffrey but became Karl Fostvedts promodel so the name changed to Kartel. When Karl went to K2 the name changed back to Jeffrey.

@OP the 17/18 Kartel 108 is the same ski as the 18/19 version, and essentially the same as the 19/20 and 20/21 Jeffrey.
Nov 18 2021 8:12PM
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muffMan.
Posts: 2794 - Karma: 26,385
For me I love it. The new addition of 102 in 191 length is just perfect for me. I have the 110 width set and needed something close to 100 for spring and non snow conditions.

im hyped to try them, but they really don’t seem that much different. Like others said, marketing
Nov 18 2021 8:19PM
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Young_patty
Posts: 3290 - Karma: 38,146
Only thing I’m sad about is that Moment will never make these top sheets again. Like these on a deathwish or frankenski would be too perfect


Nov 18 2021 8:55PM
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KilaTsunami
Posts: 3150 - Karma: 29,599
Just big pharma fuckin up the program once again
Nov 18 2021 9:12PM
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piss.boy
Posts: 1491 - Karma: 10,619
MaimHelpolder models had more flared tips, it's subtle but you can see watching old clips from when they first started. I heard they might change the rocker profile to the wets slightly for next year, but that is just folk lure at this point.

They also made tip protectors and shid


Haven't noticed the flared tips but yeah. I like how they didn't market it as a new and better ski that people should buy to replace oldies
Nov 18 2021 9:56PM
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betz
Posts: 250 - Karma: 2,041
Young_pattyOnly thing I’m sad about is that Moment will never make these top sheets again. Like these on a deathwish or frankenski would be too perfect


But like, are you mad about their current graphics? They are still best in the business imo
Nov 18 2021 10:19PM
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dolanslebensraum
Posts: 5959 - Karma: -13,099
BradFiAusNzCoCaUsually, it’s to sell more skis

This.



its the same in the tennis racquet world. They want customers to believe the ski technology gets better every year so they buy new skis every season.

im sure the park skis and race skis dont fuck around too much with novel gimmicks because those skis have to perform.

but the in betweener skis that desert dicks and sfb420 buy every yr because they cant ski park or point a groomed black… those models are filled with bs gimmicks that dont do shit.
Nov 18 2021 10:58PM
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Notaskibum
Posts: 849 - Karma: 4,007
dolanslebensraumThis.



its the same in the tennis racquet world. They want customers to believe the ski technology gets better every year so they buy new skis every season.

im sure the park skis and race skis dont fuck around too much with novel gimmicks because those skis have to perform.

but the in betweener skis that desert dicks and sfb420 buy every yr because they cant ski park or point a groomed black… those models are filled with bs gimmicks that dont do shit.

Out of all people you're the one out here claiming others can't ski park

**This post was edited on Nov 18th 2021 at 11:01:32pm
Nov 18 2021 11:01PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
People build ski quivers in pursuit of perfection. Some changes year to year are sometimes driven by ski designers with that vision, exploded out over a company. Be thankful.
Nov 19 2021 12:32AM
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dolanslebensraum
Posts: 5959 - Karma: -13,099
NotaskibumOut of all people you're the one out here claiming others can't ski park

**This post was edited on Nov 18th 2021 at 11:01:32pm


Oh thats right, i almost forgot that i cant ski park. Thanks for reminding me. How could i forget.

what about that one time tho when i did the switch? Does that count as a terrain move?
Nov 19 2021 1:12AM
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lilnoid666
Posts: 379 - Karma: 738
MaimHelpolder models had more flared tips, it's subtle but you can see watching old clips from when they first started. I heard they might change the rocker profile to the wets slightly for next year, but that is just folk lure at this point.

They also made tip protectors and shid


those very early models that the team had were just prototypes I'm pretty sure, they never sold it. I might be wrong tho @VISHNU
Nov 19 2021 2:00AM
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dwt802
Posts: 3256 - Karma: 32,119
It’s not only marketing but at least with skis like On3p these minor tweaks are shit agreed on that will perfect the ski further.
Nov 19 2021 2:57AM
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skierman
Posts: 8369 - Karma: 7,571
Mods banned OP for asking too many questions.
Nov 19 2021 5:51AM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10448 - Karma: 10,021
ReturnToMonkeyRead my response above. It's exactly the same with a different composite layup. Instead of triaxial fiberglass [0°/±45°] and carbon fiber stringers individually laid [0°], the [0°] glass is replaced with carbon so it's a single composite and apparantly it bonds better to the core as well. So this makes it thinner and lighter while also stronger, but all of these -ers are probably barely noticable.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong pls

**This post was edited on Nov 18th 2021 at 7:56:46pm


This is technically incorrect. The composite still has 0 glass. To combine the carbon and glass strands, we've increase the 0 degree glass weight to allow us to remove 0 degree glass strands - which are then replaces with the carbon.

This allows us to have the 45/45 glass as the core-facing surface, which is a stronger bond than having 2" uni-carbon against the core with 45/45 over it.

We also increased the 0 degree glass weights more than needed for an equal flex replacement, which allowed us to thin the core profile and drop some weight.
Nov 19 2021 4:10PM
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SOMNIX
Posts: 4 - Karma: 29
Moment will make you any of their current skis with any topsheet design you want if you pay them enough. They're pretty busy right now, but if you want that topsheet on a Deathwish just send them an email and they'll do it.
Young_pattyOnly thing I’m sad about is that Moment will never make these top sheets again. Like these on a deathwish or frankenski would be too perfect


Nov 19 2021 5:06PM
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ReturnToMonkey
Posts: 6416 - Karma: 69,669
iggyskierThis is technically incorrect. The composite still has 0 glass. To combine the carbon and glass strands, we've increase the 0 degree glass weight to allow us to remove 0 degree glass strands - which are then replaces with the carbon.

This allows us to have the 45/45 glass as the core-facing surface, which is a stronger bond than having 2" uni-carbon against the core with 45/45 over it.

We also increased the 0 degree glass weights more than needed for an equal flex replacement, which allowed us to thin the core profile and drop some weight.

Fascinating. So do you guys weave or stitch the strands together and do you do it in house or buy pre-woven/stitched stock?
Nov 19 2021 6:23PM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10448 - Karma: 10,021
ReturnToMonkeyFascinating. So do you guys weave or stitch the strands together and do you do it in house or buy pre-woven/stitched stock?


The weaving is (thankfully) all done by the composite manufacturer.
Nov 19 2021 6:48PM
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