It looks like you are using an ad blocker. That's okay. Who doesn't? But without advertising revenue, we can't keep making this site awesome. Click the link below for instructions on disabling adblock.
Welcome to the Newschoolers forums! You may read the forums as a guest, however you must be a registered member to post.
Register to become a member today!
It’s honestly really depressing, and I think it’s especially clear now with ski towns that got wrecked by Covid. It doesn’t help that vail resorts is trying to reap in profits while completely neglecting the people who work for them. Selling more passes while experiencing record low employment at the resorts are bringing in more crowds, but sites like Airbnb and VRBO are driving up prices and driving out locals. It seems like the crisis has gotten some attention as there has been legislation and regulations regarding short-term rental that got passed in Summit county in an attempt to deal with the housing crisis. Just curious as to people’s thoughts on this situation and what it may mean for the future.
a_burgerA lifty isn’t a lifelong career but if you want a career at a ski resort you essentially HAVE to work entry level first. No ones hiring mid level managers that just walked out of college with no experience, and even working part time in school at the resort is still gonna have you a few steps away from that position. Then there’s the issue that you’ll still often be on the cusp of not being able to afford to live in working distance even with that supervisor wage
A career at a ski resort is a pretty niche industry, I worked for years in the ski industry making peanuts but managed to support myself, nonetheless in a "ski town". I'm all for paying people more money but nothing's gonna change if people keep being complacent, I doubt you'll ever see a lifty getting a "liveable wage" and in the end the resorts will suffer as the laborer will move on.
donotreplyThe thing that is kinda upsetting too is that probably 1/4 of the houses here are probably empty most of the year like sure it’s cool to be rich and all but they’re should be laws with that because at this point it’s ridiculous
Its more than that in PC, even in the area of PC i live it's probably 50/50 and its the most "affordable" area in town. DV, the colony, other slopeside neighborhoods probably have 20-30% year round occupancy, if not lower.
eheath*entry level workers, there are tons of people who work at ski resorts and do make a livable wage doing career focused jobs. Being a lifty/ticket scanner/ski instructor is a seasonal job, not a career.
Yes there are but a ton of them are getting boned too. A lot of legit jobs pay massively, massively less than they woukd outside the ski area. Ski Areas prey on peoples passion sometimes. People like to ski and its not about the pass it's about whatever theyre job is helping other people to ski.
Ski resorts pay skilled workers less than gas stations most of the time and even fast food many times.
Not every ski resort employee getting bones is a lifty. Sure the j1s fill a lot of those spots but ski areas pay shit wages and exploit people in general. It's pretty shitty.
Also being a ski instroctor is still a skilled job. Hell even running a lift is whatever but when all the ramps are maintained like ass or the person isn't paying attention and somebody gets run over people act like its wild that somebody getting paid that little, wasn't paying attention.
It's all abour the $$ regardless of what that entails. A person with 10 years experience should be traded for somebody with 0 experience if that person will work for a dollar or two an hour less.
I had a friend, good operator leave the industry for two years and run equipment because he made nearly triple what he made in the ski industry. And he was one of the higher paid park groomers I knew of.
Ski areas have tried to remove all the bro vibes culture from ski areas. Treating everyting like a business. Then when it comes down to paying good employees? Bro its like a community bro you like get a season pass bro.
Like i said I'm in a good spot now but some of the places I've worked and friends are or have worked. I hope these places take some big hits. That's the only way it will change.
Everyone at ski resorts gets lumped into "oh it's entry level work so fuck em" too often. Even then places charging as much for everything about skiing should pay a wage you can at least afford to live on.
This isn't biy a house and be middle class wage. We aren't even talking about that. This is "i want to actually be able to find a place to rent and buy groceries" which in no way seems unreasonable.
Ski resorts have jacked uo the costs in town. In cities, fast food places were paying up years ago even because the cost of living was higher. I don't see how that argument doesn't apply to ski resorts.
If you can't afford a place to rent working full time in that area without being homeless thats total bullshit and 100% those ski areas fault. They probably wont fold but if they do, fuck em.
WormracerYou haven't... You live in a city, next to a bigger city that happens to have ski areas around it.
Around 80% of the time you have zero idea what your talking about. This is one of those times.
Many ski areas aren't within 30mins from cities. They are set in rural areas with small populations. This is what is considered a ski town. The economy revolves around these ski areas so when they pay $12 an hour and housing costs over 60% of their paycheck, and the closest grocery store has prices set for tourists your fucked.
People aren't flocking to these places they are fucking born in them. They grew up down the road, went to a shit highschool, and don't have any opportunity to get out. This is how real live works guy.
Or they could pull themselves up by their bootstraps right?
eheathIf its not enough money for you, get a different job. Nobody is forcing them to work at the resort, there are plenty of other jobs in a ski town that pay more. Don't get it twisted, I think they should get paid more, but they don't and likely won't get paid much more than the absolute minimum.
Idk. I hear that a lot but if you feel that way maybe you shouldn't ski. I don't think you can support the ski industry with business and feel that way without being an asshole.
That's generalized not anything person. I hear that a lot and I get it, but if you say that and do ski, you lose the right to ever complain that lifts are closed because of low staffing, runs are groomed not so great, the park isn't as good as what you wanted.
Can't have both imo. If people can't afford to literally just exist you get what you get.
theabortionatorIdk. I hear that a lot but if you feel that way maybe you shouldn't ski. I don't think you can support the ski industry with business and feel that way without being an asshole.
That's generalized not anything person. I hear that a lot and I get it, but if you say that and do ski, you lose the right to ever complain that lifts are closed because of low staffing, runs are groomed not so great, the park isn't as good as what you wanted.
Can't have both imo. If people can't afford to literally just exist you get what you get.
That's a bit extreme, I respect your opinion about this but how is it the consumers fault? I buy a pass just like everyone else, I can't change how someone gets paid, I can't change how much a house costs/how much rent is in a mountain town. Like I said before, PC had some staffing issues the last couple of years and they straight up don't run lifts/groom some areas because of it, the impact has been minimal for me but I see it getting worse before it gets better.
Boho is paying all employees 20$ (really like 40$ when you factor in cost of living) an hour yet I don't see droves of these screwed over skiers moving to Michigan.
theabortionatorI had a friend, good operator leave the industry for two years and run equipment because he made nearly triple what he made in the ski industry. And he was one of the higher paid park groomers I knew of.
I didn't want to quote your whole thing to scroll bomb this thread even more, but this one statement in my mind is exactly what these workers should do, leave the industry, let the resorts suffer.
Resorts 100% take advantage of their employees, I never said they didnt, I've said many times they get underpaid and the only thing thats gonna change it is the resort has serious staffing issues, until then why would the resort change what they do?
I know you've had numerous personal experience and friends who have been fucked, etc etc but its certainly a case of the negative is louder than the positive, I have tons of friends who work for PC and are happy with their positions. It goes both ways.
My question to you borty is what should happen? And how does this all change? I dont see anything changing until these employees take action, right now the PC ski patrollers are in negotiations with Vail over wages, could maybe be a step in the right direction, but in the end how is a company like Vail any different than say Amazon? We know working conditions suck, we know they get underpaid, but why does nothing change? Idk about you, but I feel pretty hopeless about it all.
eheathThat's a bit extreme, I respect your opinion about this but how is it the consumers fault? I buy a pass just like everyone else, I can't change how someone gets paid, I can't change how much a house costs/how much rent is in a mountain town. Like I said before, PC had some staffing issues the last couple of years and they straight up don't run lifts/groom some areas because of it, the impact has been minimal for me but I see it getting worse before it gets better.
I get it. I'm not in anyway blaming anybody that skis and buys a pass. It's not on you what wage people get paid. But with staffing issues already, a certain amount of people half to do these jobs for the ski area to operate. I wasn't saying that buy skiing it's your fault if somebody gets paid terribly.
But the ski industry does exploit the workforce and many of those people stay because they have a passion for skiing, the same as many of the people buying passes etc. A ton of the work force barely has time to ski, but they still love putting out a good product for people.
The housing situation has gotten jacked to the point where it's insane to even find a place to live(with roommates obviously) buy minimal groceries, and put gas in car to get to said mountain. That's not good. I don't think any business in a ski town that operates like that should survive, especially the one's driving up the demand.
This is why gas stations and fast food, or pretty much every other business in a ski town pays decent, because it's what's required for people to live. I just think the acceptance of this as "that's just how the industry works" is something that needs to change.
Things are going to get worse for a while. Many of the big ski resorts have done very little or actually nothing about the housing issue, so I can't see things getting any better.
Idk, like I said I'm not blaming people for the wages just saying it's hard for me to be okay with somebody saying "Hey it's cool if people can't actually find a place to live, rely on food banks and minimal groceries to survive." But they ski which relies on at least some amount of that work force. Nobody is forcing anyone to move to ski towns and work at ski resorts but a certain amount need to exist for the mountain to exist. When all the other businesses including fast food pay much higher, it's clear there's an issue.
Idk, it's just pretty shitty all around. I'm glad I left Tahoe. I'm very glad I got the fuck out of Vail Resorts forever. A lot of mountains were struggling to find people this year. More mountains will pay up a bit more next year, and they'll have better luck getting and retaining good employees shockingly. Hopefully that's a trend but who knows.
/Sorry for text walls. This issue grinds my gears pretty hard
eheathI didn't want to quote your whole thing to scroll bomb this thread even more, but this one statement in my mind is exactly what these workers should do, leave the industry, let the resorts suffer.
Resorts 100% take advantage of their employees, I never said they didnt, I've said many times they get underpaid and the only thing thats gonna change it is the resort has serious staffing issues, until then why would the resort change what they do?
I know you've had numerous personal experience and friends who have been fucked, etc etc but its certainly a case of the negative is louder than the positive, I have tons of friends who work for PC and are happy with their positions. It goes both ways.
My question to you borty is what should happen? And how does this all change? I dont see anything changing until these employees take action, right now the PC ski patrollers are in negotiations with Vail over wages, could maybe be a step in the right direction, but in the end how is a company like Vail any different than say Amazon? We know working conditions suck, we know they get underpaid, but why does nothing change? Idk about you, but I feel pretty hopeless about it all.
Yeah I don't really have the answers. Maybe things try to go union eventually? With the rocketing costs in ski towns issues are going to be pretty bleak. Idk. I've thought about leaving and going to work in the mining industry for a few years. Haters can hate but again, if that's an industry that's willing to pay up, they're going to get people out there.
The ski industry has moved far beyond the little mom and pop days, but still hasn't really adjusted. I guess we'll see what happens?
bennwithtwonsthis is the same conversation that people have been having forever. business owners are in business to make money, so they pay as little as they can in order to maximize their profit while the workers always want to be paid more. if you are in an entry level position (meaning a position that doesn't require a bunch of prior experience or training), you will make entry level money and it most likely will not be enough to have your own place, to buy a new car, or to support any dependents. no one is just going to start handing you tons of cash to do something that someone else will do for less.
it doesn't matter if you dropped out of high school or have a phd, bumping chairs or flipping burgers is not a job for which you'll be paid like the head of lift ops or the executive chef at a restaurant. if you look at your labor as a business, you'll realize that you need to make investments in yourself in order to make improvements in what your labor is worth in the marketplace. it just isn't reasonable to expect to roll up to a resort for a seasonal job and expect to be paid big money. so, what can you do? you can admit that you aren't in it for the money and suck it up and live with 4 friends and carpool to the mountain (the novelty of this usually wears off after a few years). you can look for a job in another industry where the pay might be better (this is what some people do when the novelty of seasonal work wears off). you can gain skills that will make you more attractive to employers who can and will pay you more (this is a common way of transitioning into a higher-paid job). you can start your own business! no matter what you do, you've got to make an investment in yourself if you want to progress beyond the minimum pay-type jobs.
We are not talking about buying a home in a ski town, buying a new car. We are talking about finding a fucking place to rent, and buying groceries. You later mention "roll up with 0 experience and expect to make big money" "tons of cash". Again, refer to the above, nobody is expecting big money, people want to survive. Vail was paying people with years of experience running snowmaking systems/ snow cats less than fast food.
You mention flipping burgers, which actually pays higher than many of the jobs at many ski areas. Pretty stupid analogy to try and make.
But yeah, just pull yourself up by your bootstraps, open a business, learn to code right? WTF dude? Cool you rent out your place in the ski town when you can airbnb it. You're still making money on it, but least you're not doing for those twice a week rentals. But really I have no idea what you're arguing about how people can't expect to buy a car, buy a jet, own a private island off working in a ski town. The other ski town jobs are paying up because they have to. There's a reason for that. Anything else is just weird logic to support your opinion on the issue.
BrightFrogNo, I went to college to work for $18 an hour and not be able to ski. Every employee is going to whine about being underpaid, and resort employees just make more noise because they live in expensive towns. As long as resorts are providing housing and passes, they shouldn’t have to pay shit. It’s not a career and not a societal benefit.
BrightFrogthank you. Can’t afford to work in a ski town? Don’t. There will always be a healthy supply of rich kids that need to pretend to be employed to satisfy their parents. Many of them have NS accounts in fact.
LonelyBoho is paying all employees 20$ (really like 40$ when you factor in cost of living) an hour yet I don't see droves of these screwed over skiers moving to Michigan.
Strange
The nearest town is 50mins away with a total population of less than 8 thousand people. Boho is very isolated and surrounded by copper mining industry (that probably pay living/union wages) I'm just a simple boi but $20 looks like competitive wages in the local job market.
The crisis is real! But honestly I think it’s worse for the employers than the employees. It’s a labor friendly market and it’s a goddamn wage war!
Unfortunately you can’t pay your rent on a shop/liftie wage unless you’re in management or have a second job (or both!) and even at that 2k+ a month is a huge stretch for rent.
however, as somebody who wants to live in the mountains forever I have to believe there’s opportunity in the growth. I’ve had at least two jobs for six+ years and was in Hospitality Food & Beverage management for four of em.
just left F&B and am doing Ops for a development conglomerate for a decent bump and a much more relaxed schedule with remote flexibility and good bennies. Hey if you can’t beat em join em 🤷♂️ Still gonna have a second job and always on the lookout for a good side hustle.
honestly it really sucks to see how hard ppl are working and to watch my friends and community suffer, and to see some of my favorite spots close and all the old party houses getting knocked down and flipped but all we can do is keep working, learning, and really think about it like a career and keep grinding
LonelyBoho is paying all employees 20$ (really like 40$ when you factor in cost of living) an hour yet I don't see droves of these screwed over skiers moving to Michigan.
Strange
Lol at 20 more like 40. The fuck does that even mean. I get cheaper living but that's such a ridiculous thing to say. Also I'm pretty sure they just announced that 2 months ago. A weird stat to be a dick about since ya know most people are locking down places to live and jobs before the season.
20 is not fucking 40, sure it's great but that seems kind of douchey to say. I get it you love michigan. Hell I like Michigan. Hell a bunch of people I work with in WA are from Michigan, but I don't see your point. 1 place announced it raised the minimum wage, all the ski industry housing problems are solved, yup....
Yup, Anyone who's getting boned in the ski industry is an asshole because everyone could have uprooted to michigan last minute. Was actually kind of sweet to see when they posted about it. Somehow you made it pretty not sweet.
Way too much for me to read lol but i gotta say this is by far not a nee or unique issue. Theres an interesting book called the slums of aspen that highlight the inequity of their workforce and clientele. People for decades now have been driving over 60 miles one way to work in aspen as they can not afford to live in aspen. The affordable locations near aspen are terrible living conditions but the migrant workers dont have a voice.
i think the wages in aspen may be higher than some of these towns that are currently booming but i suspect over time itll be pretty much the exact same.
there are programs though! I just bought a house from the town of breck. They bought it in july, took a 20% loss to deed restrict it (occupants must work 30+ hours a week in the county for the rest of time) and sold it to us. They have capped the short term rental amount, expanding section 8 housing and plans to build more deed restricted units. Even so, its coming too late.
theabortionatorWe are not talking about buying a home in a ski town, buying a new car. We are talking about finding a fucking place to rent, and buying groceries. You later mention "roll up with 0 experience and expect to make big money" "tons of cash". Again, refer to the above, nobody is expecting big money, people want to survive. Vail was paying people with years of experience running snowmaking systems/ snow cats less than fast food.
You mention flipping burgers, which actually pays higher than many of the jobs at many ski areas. Pretty stupid analogy to try and make.
But yeah, just pull yourself up by your bootstraps, open a business, learn to code right? WTF dude? Cool you rent out your place in the ski town when you can airbnb it. You're still making money on it, but least you're not doing for those twice a week rentals. But really I have no idea what you're arguing about how people can't expect to buy a car, buy a jet, own a private island off working in a ski town. The other ski town jobs are paying up because they have to. There's a reason for that. Anything else is just weird logic to support your opinion on the issue.
i only mentioned flipping burgers because it is another example of a low-skill, entry level job. i wasn't making any claims about the rate of pay being comparable to a first year kids school ski instructor or a lifty. i am simply mentioning that employment is an at-will relationship between the employer and the employee. if the employee is not satisfied with the pay the employer will provide, they can choose not to take that job. similarly, if the employer is unwilling to pay the employee what they desire, they are free to not offer employment to that person. it is just reality.
someone's desire to live in a ski town doesn't automatically give them a claim to the wages or housing in that area. they have to be willing to do what it takes to afford that place. i KNOW that it is more expensive than most places - i did that for years. i lived with no fewer than 3 and as many as 5 roommates and ran a tight budget just to be able to do it. it was worth it for a time but ultimately i had to move on. i was simply trying to highlight some of the options people have for improving their situation, rather than just being mad about it. people have agency and can make improvements to their lives if they want to. no one is holding them back.
as for the rental situation, i am making a case for an alternative approach to housing in inventory-strapped towns. i personally feel compelled to rent to locals as opposed to vacationers and tourists. i think it is more useful to the community that i care about and i am foregoing the extra income i could make in order to live in alignment with that principal. i wouldn't presume to tell anyone else how to live or how to rent their property but if more people did adopt that method, i think it would probably benefit their communities as well.
i don't think any of these comments are remotely out of line. i am realistic about the nature of living in a mountain town and was just trying to provide encouragement and advice to anyone who is feeling a bit lost on that front.
ho_chi_minhThe nearest town is 50mins away with a total population of less than 8 thousand people. Boho is very isolated and surrounded by copper mining industry (that probably pay living/union wages) I'm just a simple boi but $20 looks like competitive wages in the local job market.
Is there actual housing for seasonal workers?
Copper mining industry? hahahahaha maybe like....50 years ago. You either work at the uni, a gas station/mcdonalds, or a hotel. Most shit is paying 12 an hour. Not really a competitive wage more like a blow the competition out of the water wage.
You live in calumet. For 300$. Make a good chunk of change and save a lot. Then spend spring out in hood. Or do whatever you want
theabortionatorLol at 20 more like 40. The fuck does that even mean. I get cheaper living but that's such a ridiculous thing to say. Also I'm pretty sure they just announced that 2 months ago. A weird stat to be a dick about since ya know most people are locking down places to live and jobs before the season.
20 is not fucking 40, sure it's great but that seems kind of douchey to say. I get it you love michigan. Hell I like Michigan. Hell a bunch of people I work with in WA are from Michigan, but I don't see your point. 1 place announced it raised the minimum wage, all the ski industry housing problems are solved, yup....
Yup, Anyone who's getting boned in the ski industry is an asshole because everyone could have uprooted to michigan last minute. Was actually kind of sweet to see when they posted about it. Somehow you made it pretty not sweet.
You trying to tell me 20$ in aspen is the same as 20$ in calumet? LOL
Didn't say it was solving the problem, but moving to boho to pursue the passion of being a lifty, and making 20$ an hour, while sticking it to vail and working at a small "core" resort, in one of the most inexpensive areas in the country seems to be the solution to the problem for a lot of people in this thread complaining about the cost of skiing at the best resorts in the world.
Gonna be a trade-off, sure. But you get what you pay for, although the bigshit out west is definitely more expensive than it should be.
bennwithtwonsi only mentioned flipping burgers because it is another example of a low-skill, entry level job. i wasn't making any claims about the rate of pay being comparable to a first year kids school ski instructor or a lifty. i am simply mentioning that employment is an at-will relationship between the employer and the employee. if the employee is not satisfied with the pay the employer will provide, they can choose not to take that job. similarly, if the employer is unwilling to pay the employee what they desire, they are free to not offer employment to that person. it is just reality.
someone's desire to live in a ski town doesn't automatically give them a claim to the wages or housing in that area. they have to be willing to do what it takes to afford that place. i KNOW that it is more expensive than most places - i did that for years. i lived with no fewer than 3 and as many as 5 roommates and ran a tight budget just to be able to do it. it was worth it for a time but ultimately i had to move on. i was simply trying to highlight some of the options people have for improving their situation, rather than just being mad about it. people have agency and can make improvements to their lives if they want to. no one is holding them back.
as for the rental situation, i am making a case for an alternative approach to housing in inventory-strapped towns. i personally feel compelled to rent to locals as opposed to vacationers and tourists. i think it is more useful to the community that i care about and i am foregoing the extra income i could make in order to live in alignment with that principal. i wouldn't presume to tell anyone else how to live or how to rent their property but if more people did adopt that method, i think it would probably benefit their communities as well.
i don't think any of these comments are remotely out of line. i am realistic about the nature of living in a mountain town and was just trying to provide encouragement and advice to anyone who is feeling a bit lost on that front.
Idk man. It's just feels like you're blaming people for working at mountains somehow. If people don't work there, the mountain doesn't run, everyone trying to ski gets mad. I kind of hope that happens. Would be hard to organize but damn, everyone is just like "meh ski area jobs don't pay who cares good luck" but still want to go skiing. I don't think you can have it both ways.
The fast food industry, gas stations and everyone else is paying up. The ski industry rocks the fuck out of j1's for everything they can and then prays they can get enough people or work others to death to cover the skilled jobs.
As I said I did move. I'm at a spot paying competitive wages, and my rent is cheap, but I'm not at all one of those people that's going to say "I moved so should you". When literally every business is doing this and the ski industry is boning people it's pretty whack.
The ski industry needs people to run it, there's not enough good paying mountains for everyone, there's barely any honestly. People may not have a claim to housing, but in that case the mountains should eat shit in terms of getting those workers. They should be denied maxing out the j1 visas. Vail at northstar was trying to rent a big house and put like 60 j1's in it as a possible answer. Seemed like a fire hazard setup at best, I don't think it went though. Places are coming up with the sketchiest things to get workers not to help anyone. They're having to do food drives in these towns specific for employees because employees can't even buy enough groceries to eat. But America is the best and this is all great right?
I don't expect any business to give people money they don't deserve. I don't even expect the ski industry to pay comparable wages. I just think it's pretty fucked, it's been pretty fucked, and the people arguing against the workers are also, you guessed it, pretty fucked.
I think there's some weird lack of respect, and maybe hatred of ski area employees. Maybe people see them as bums or something. Maybe I'll just go work in mining and make some $$$ and fuck the environment because that's how she rolls. I don't get how people can go skiing, expect so much, complain so much, and be such douches about this situation.
WormracerBreckenridge, PC, Jackson Hole, aren't like most ski areas. Many ski areas are small AF and draw from the local population for a work force. It's really common to work with people at a ski resort that don't ski or snowboard. They are working because thats it for job opportunities.
Do you think it's possible to be poor and rent a house in Breck (not an apartment) anymore with a kid? Probably not.
This thread is about vail resorts and summit county.
When you have to compete with trustafarians whose mediocre wage is subsidized by parents who have in demand careers, you'll never win. It applied 30 years ago and still applies today. Bootstrapping and the skibum dream stopped being sustainable before thr turn of the century.
If you want to ski and not be shit out of luck come retirement, you need a job people will pay good money for. bumping lifts just ain't it. Never has been.
LonelyYou trying to tell me 20$ in aspen is the same as 20$ in calumet? LOL
Didn't say it was solving the problem, but moving to boho to pursue the passion of being a lifty, and making 20$ an hour, while sticking it to vail and working at a small "core" resort, in one of the most inexpensive areas in the country seems to be the solution to the problem for a lot of people in this thread complaining about the cost of skiing at the best resorts in the world.
Gonna be a trade-off, sure. But you get what you pay for, although the bigshit out west is definitely more expensive than it should be.
I get it but it's more like 20 bucks is 20 bucks, versus, 20 bucks in some of the ski towns is death. It's not really a bonus. It's hard to consider as such. Wage to cost of living makes a huge difference, but $20 is 20. I'm sure they got a fuck ton more applications after they announced that so I doubt it was strange that noone applied, I'm sure they got a bunch of applications. They don't have grooming really there and def don't have a park as far as I know, so it's not like it's the spot for everyone though.
With the exodus out of cities people are kind of fucking the economies everywhere up. Even Idaho and Montana are getting pretty jacked.
Idk, people should wear condoms and get abortions if needed. Too many damn people out there these days. I'm planning to buy a trailer so I can have my own home for the winter in WA, and summer at hood. Depends if I decide to go back to hood though. I think it works.
I get what you're saying about housing though. I almost bought a house in NY 10 min from the small mtn I was working at. Place kinda went to shit and I don't think they even have a park these days but that's cheap. There's def some of that in the midwest and east coast, I just don't think that solves the problems in other towns. I know you're always trying to get people to MI and that's prolly all you meant. I was just getting salty reading some of the first page comments and seeing the ski industry still boning friends.
Sorry for scrollbomby rants. This is an issue I think about a lot. This is my 24th I think season in the ski industry. I've worked different size places, different corporate places, different ski towns. I've just watched this situation grow and get fucked.
I guess at least I'm happy that I have decent experience and more options now and currently landed at a good spot that pays pretty well and the rent is super cheap. But this situation in ski towns is going to get really ugly before anything changes.
There's just something sketchy to me about Vail paying 5 + year operators 15 ish some places while charging $200 for a lift ticket and $16 for a burger. You aren't entitled to a companies profits, but when people are that fucked in these towns on that amount of money, every other industry including fast food, gas station, being a dishwasher are paying more than running a $350,000 machine it's kind of fucked. I don't have the answers but we're going to see a lot more of this. People are pretty priced out at the moment but it's not nearly as bad as it's going to get.
I think we’re very close actually. We’ve both made sacrifices and compromises in order to pursue a life that’s rewarding but also stable. For sure I did not feel stable making $14/hr coaching at northstar but I was having all the fun in the world. Now I ski less than I did then but can afford new skis when my edges rip out.
I just want people to take command of their lives rather than being spectators. resorts will change if they can’t staff appropriately, cause they’ll feel that impact big time. It’s a normal market correction, it is just uncomfortable. That J1 argument is an interesting one as well. What specifically did you have in mind?
bennwithtwonsI think we’re very close actually. We’ve both made sacrifices and compromises in order to pursue a life that’s rewarding but also stable. For sure I did not feel stable making $14/hr coaching at northstar but I was having all the fun in the world. Now I ski less than I did then but can afford new skis when my edges rip out.
I just want people to take command of their lives rather than being spectators. resorts will change if they can’t staff appropriately, cause they’ll feel that impact big time. It’s a normal market correction, it is just uncomfortable. That J1 argument is an interesting one as well. What specifically did you have in mind?
Idk. Honestly it kind of sucks that you have to look at ski areas like greedy corporate environments that will only change if they're pretty much screwed and have no alternatives.
I think the problem is that the situations fluctuate so much resort to resort but the wages don't. Like some small ski area in nowheresville paying 8-10 and Vail in big ski towns paying 12-15. It's wild. Honestly when Vail was still paying operators 12, I don't know if you could even find a job under 9 or even 8 at the smallest ski areas.
Personally I think even a lifty should make enough to at least afford budget housing and groceries. When talking about letting the market decide, the market has. They can't staff those positions without j1's. If they couldn't rely on foreign workers they're would be a shortage. I guess some other jobs they pay just enough or can do more with less and make things work on short seasons. If a massive percent of your work force is recruiting foreign workers to fill the role, maybe the market is saying you're paying a bullshit wage. As a person that travels on visas I hate cutting visas too much but I think this would be good to limit. If I were to go back to Australia I could get a visa because they need more people on the grooming fleet to make it work. The difference is that it isn't a wage thing as much. Most jobs pay pretty well down there. In the US a lot more peopel would be down for those jobs, but it's simply unlivable for them.
But yeah, idk man. If places need workers in a specific place, those people should be paid accordingly. Nothing lavish, we're just talking housing(with roommates) and meager groceries. I really don't think that's unreasonable in anyway and it's pretty fucking sad that the ski industry has shown that it does.
Not to mention how much less accessible skiing is getting. We are the last of a generation tbh, eventually only zuck JR and young musk will be the only kids making a mountain their playground. I’m seriously about start poaching halfpipes and hiking rails again. Damn.
is the problem at the resort level or is this situation a state department type issue? i don't know anything about this side of things (other than the fact that a bunch of my colleagues at NS were international folks on visas) - so i am curious to know if you're proposing a specific resort ban/policy on visa workers or if it is a pullback across the board for all international workers in an attempt to get the local workforce to fill those positions. if the J1s are not available, i think the correction would happen instantly. they'd be looking at their employee rosters and see huge holes in it and probably think something along the lines of .. 'ok time to crank up the wages'
before i got the 'swanky' coaching gig, i spent a winter doing just kids ski school lessons for beginners. 6-8 kids in each lesson at ~160 each for the day and i got about 11 an hour or something. they did feel them with nutritious buttered noodles and animal crackers though!
bennwithtwonsis the problem at the resort level or is this situation a state department type issue? i don't know anything about this side of things (other than the fact that a bunch of my colleagues at NS were international folks on visas) - so i am curious to know if you're proposing a specific resort ban/policy on visa workers or if it is a pullback across the board for all international workers in an attempt to get the local workforce to fill those positions. if the J1s are not available, i think the correction would happen instantly. they'd be looking at their employee rosters and see huge holes in it and probably think something along the lines of .. 'ok time to crank up the wages'
before i got the 'swanky' coaching gig, i spent a winter doing just kids ski school lessons for beginners. 6-8 kids in each lesson at ~160 each for the day and i got about 11 an hour or something. they did feel them with nutritious buttered noodles and animal crackers though!
With the visa's I think that's at the federal level for sure. If ski resorts can ski resorts will use that. That's what a big percentage of the larger ski town mountains are running to get enough staff. Agreed that if they didn't have that option the response would be way faster. Some of these companies it's not a matter of money. It's just counting beans to try and make the resort run on as little as possible. Places will cut corners on staffing, safety, even the environment then throw up a totally different image on the socials about how great they are.
I get that it's a business, business exist to make money, but some of the stuff is pretty whack. The ski instructor thing kind sucks. Nothing like bringing in 800-1000 for a lesson and getting like 15 an hour maybe less. So like I said I'm not arguing that everyone makes bank, but some of that shit seems a little bunk. Maybe offer a percentage or something. Also I still think even as a lifty you should be able to afford groceries if fast food is paying up, so should the ski industry. I think you have to go with the comparable spots. Fast food, dishwashers, gas stations, would not have enough people if they didn't pay what they pay, many are still always hiring. The ski industry is just like "Nah, the locals don't want to work I guess. Let's bring in a ton of j1s".
Some of their living situations are pretty rough. 1 I hooked up with while in tahoe occasionally over the seasons was living in a hotel room with a main room and small kitchen thing and a bedroom. I think they had 6 people in there. They were stoked to be in America and stuff but it wasn't ideal living conditions really. 2 people to a bed. Idk. If you can't find people because people aren't skilled enough or they don't want the job that's one thing. Not finding enough people because you pay so little is different. As long as the J1 visa is as easy for them they'll forever use it as a crutch. Powder wrote a fluff piece about it a couple years ago. About how great it was. One of the mountains, I think Homewood, talked about how locals just don't want to work. Like yeah, idk man. Maybe locals want to not be homeless and east food. Those are decent goals.
I think starting with that visa might be the best spot. Even though it's generally lifties and other lower skilled jobs I think that would work up. There isn't as much volume for some of the skilled jobs and they're usually able to string just enough people along to make it work season to season.
As far as lifties one year northstar was offering people whatever wage they were making to run a lift for a day. So they can't pay decent wages but had managers making 20's an hour some in OT too to run lifts. And still had some lifts shut down. Seemed like such a waste. Maybe just pay people a slightly less laughable wage from the beginning.
Idk, again sorry for text walls. This shit just grinds my gears kind of. As long as the J1 visa is there the resorts will exploit it,
man I feel the pain honestly. For three summers between those NS winters I worked 10 hour days, sometimes 3 weeks straight without a day off, riding my bike 15 miles to and from the ‘office’ to basically sit on an asphalt pad in the middle of July and august in 100% humidity to rent cars to island visitors, all so I could ‘afford’ to work at northstar during the winters for far less pay. I’ve done the uphill both ways through a blizzard routine and the charm worn thin pretty fast. I definitely can tell how passionate you are about it, even after having improved your own situation. I don’t mean to come off like a heartless bastard, as that’s very far from the truth. I wouldn’t trade those years of struggle but I’m glad they’re my past and not my future. I say let’s do our best and in the meantime, pray for snow!
I work full time as an EKG tech in LaGrande Oregon. Anthony lakes is about an hour away and I work weekends in the winter teaching. I get my pass and letters for other ski areas in Oregon Washington. My two bedroom basement apartment is 500 bucks all utilities. I know I lucked the absurdly fuck out with it and I could afford more. Anthony is a tiny one chair area with 1000 feet of vert. Also the best snow i have ever skied. Most years I'd get 3 lessons at most a day and ski the rest.. last season I was ran ragged and didn't get to ski on my own at all. Anthony has no employe housing and is only open Thursday-sunday. I feel for the employees who work the whole time since they don't get any off days at all.
man I feel the pain honestly. For three summers between those NS winters I worked 10 hour days, sometimes 3 weeks straight without a day off, riding my bike 15 miles to and from the ‘office’ to basically sit on an asphalt pad in the middle of July and august in 100% humidity to rent cars to island visitors, all so I could ‘afford’ to work at northstar during the winters for far less pay. I’ve done the uphill both ways through a blizzard routine and the charm worn thin pretty fast. I definitely can tell how passionate you are about it, even after having improved your own situation. I don’t mean to come off like a heartless bastard, as that’s very far from the truth. I wouldn’t trade those years of struggle but I’m glad they’re my past and not my future. I say let’s do our best and in the meantime, pray for snow!
True. It's hard to tell sometimes and I'm easily charged up on this issue I guess lol.
Also with northstar. 2 years we got our lunches taken out when we were getting "paid to work" them. Took 57 minutes from the top of the park to get down to the base area, clock out for half hour and get back up. Made total sense to get paid for them, but we got boned. Was going going to go after them on that labor not for the $ but the principle but then covid hit and I didn't pursue it. Sucks when companies that are already boning people that hard take it to the next degree.
Was already going to leave. I started the last season there at 13.25 because they fucked up my raise in snowmaking. Got up to 14.25 in parks so I didn't quit. But I told them I'd only be there till the season end. And I dipped out. Felt good to get 3 years in one spot, at a notable park. Didn't learn much from anyone there because nobody wanted to teach you anything but at least it looks decent on the resume for parks. But yeah, found a spot I knew nothing about, didn't even know where it was, dude offered me a job for more $ and cheap housing and I took it. Best decision I made.
I've put in some time but I consider myself lucky because there def aren't enough of those opportunities. It's not crazy good or anything, but rent is honestly super cheap, no commute, and I get paid pretty well. I guess well see what happens in the industry though.
Also our mtn is now Alterra so we have more $$ pouring in so it's a good spot for growing the parks. We're almost done with a pretty extensive rail refub giving things some love, ordered 5 new boxes for the smaller park, and going to build a couple of new features. Just came for the $$$ and to check it out, but last season went pretty well. Had a pretty fun flow park going. Hoping this season things will be on another level.
I know I bitch a lot and bitched in this thread a bit but I really am crazy passionate about the industry and parks specifically. I never had a park at the local growing up. I'd get kicked off the hill for building jumps. I landed in parks at another mtn after pretty much getting fired from ski school for building a job and then asked if I wanted to help in the park. I get a big satisfaction out of putting in some extra to try and make sure the parks are as dialed as I can make them for the up and coming kids trying to progress or really anyone trying to ride. I watched VR suck the life and passion out of a lot of people, I'm glad I got away. Even though this place is more corporate now it's still mellow vibes. Small place and everyone does there jobs, helps each other, but it stays pretty drama free.
Northstar people standing on the tracks screaming at each other or threatening each other with a wrench in the shop yard was just another day. Northstar has fun parks, but it wasn't worth it.
Hoping we can keep expanding the park and growing and maybe this will be a place I stay for a long time. I committed(unofficially)to 2 years to check it out, said last season I'd work another 2. Told my boss I'll probably be around for another 2 or 3 after this. I'll feel it out see where it goes and if it feels like home it might be.
I've worked hard and left even shitty mountains on good terms. All but maybe 1 mountain I could go back to and get a job easily. And that one the feeling is pretty mutual lol. I have actually gone back and worked at different mountains including my OG local while back east a while back. Might go back and help with a build if I make it make for christmas this year or next.
Idk. I don't do my job because it's easier. Honestly working nights is pretty ass and very very few mountains have a shift differential. At this point I don't really know what else I would do outside of equipment maybe concrete, but it's those nights putting in a bunch of my soul into a rebuild and watching kids learn front 2 out of a rail, watching somebody stop a good line. Working a 23 hour day, sleeping for an hour, 21 hour day, sleeping for 5 hours, 17 hour day to make a comp happen at a small east coast resort that was going to get canceled. (I was 40 hours a week salary for that part of the season so it wasn't the money)
Idk, there's a lot of good people in the industry and I hate to see them leave or grow eternally salty. There's something about our sport that drew us in, and there's a lot to be said about keeping those people around. A 10 year guy at one mountain that's a legit af groomer, knows the whole snowmaking system, knows the mountain by heart, knows the people, has other skills. Letting somebody like that walk over a buck and hour because you can hire a rookie for slightly less. It just seems wild to me. I guess maybe I'm too close to it, maybe I'm skewed but it just feels fucked.
Whatever though. For the foreseeable future I'll be building rails and pushing around snow trying to get people hyped. Occasionally kooking around the park and trying not to die. I still love skiing and snowboarding and will forever have a love. I'm glad that I somehow avoided getting too beaten down and jaded after that many seasons, and still love the fuck out of it. Sometimes it's a lot, sometimes it's pretty stressful, but something about it still feels like that first time I built a jump and hit it. I'll forever be grateful to this sport.
eheathYeah I haven't lived in a ski town for the last 9 years...
Like I said, I think they should get paid more and I'm pretty sure vail just bumped to $15/hour right? Being a lifty isn't a skilled position, you think they should get paid $30/hour or something? Right now, being a lifty is a ski bum seasonal job, you shouldn't be a lifty if you need to support yourself beyond the most basic needs.
Everyone wants the resorts to stop charging so much money for everything, parking, food, fast tracks, retails, etc yet they want them to pay their employees more, how does that make sense?
1. Most Resorts have the funds to pay staff better and resorts making more money does not equal paying the staff better.
2. No matter how many people you get to walk out on them, they will always have a new crop of young people each year who are easy to exploit.
3. Everyone should be able to live locally if they work locally.
Even though being young is a time to rough it and make mistakes / progress, young people still shouldn’t have to struggle to pay rent while working full time.
This idea people have that struggle is necessary to get somewhere is total bullshit. What gets people places is motivation and opportunity.
How many young people have you known who’ve gotten stuck in dead end shit jobs and ended up homeless, with addiction issues, or mental health issues because of their situation?
man I feel the pain honestly. For three summers between those NS winters I worked 10 hour days, sometimes 3 weeks straight without a day off, riding my bike 15 miles to and from the ‘office’ to basically sit on an asphalt pad in the middle of July and august in 100% humidity to rent cars to island visitors, all so I could ‘afford’ to work at northstar during the winters for far less pay. I’ve done the uphill both ways through a blizzard routine and the charm worn thin pretty fast. I definitely can tell how passionate you are about it, even after having improved your own situation. I don’t mean to come off like a heartless bastard, as that’s very far from the truth. I wouldn’t trade those years of struggle but I’m glad they’re my past and not my future. I say let’s do our best and in the meantime, pray for snow!
“10 hour days three weeks straight” yeah buddy sounds real tough. Almost like you have any normal job in the working world, except you take more time off.
NS hive mind at work in this thread where people think supply and demand don't apply to the labor market, especially ski industry jobs. Loke lonely said, if you want to make more you gotta work where there is less supply of workers. Come to the Midwest. I made $25 an hour before tips instructing last year and we were still short on staff. Go where everyone is expect to be paid less. Bring on the downvotes.
J-Webs88Vail is using typical corporate avenues, its just the way of the world, and not at all unique to the ski industry.
If they can find cheap labor that's what they'll do. If they could outsource labor overseas they probably would.
Outsourced lifities FTW. Just set up a camera live stream to some guy in India (who goes by “Mark” so that rich fucks relate to them better than Sayeed) and have them run stops from across the globe.
i think outsourcing is a thing of the past. Were going to see things more along the lines of automation. If a tesla can avoid an accident by changing lanes and knowing 360 degree obstacles than it’s only a matter of time before lifts run fully autonomously. I mean compared to a car it seems pretty easy.
while I’m on these wild ideas, fuck a lift all together. Get Elon Musk and the Boring Co to dig under ground tunnels to get people up the hill fast. Similar to those tubes at the post office. Imagine how sick it would be to ski with out seeing ask the lifts?! Also, no wind hold and your out of the elements on those fridged days. Get your shot together Elon!!
partyandBSOutsourced lifities FTW. Just set up a camera live stream to some guy in India (who goes by “Mark” so that rich fucks relate to them better than Sayeed) and have them run stops from across the globe.
i think outsourcing is a thing of the past. Were going to see things more along the lines of automation. If a tesla can avoid an accident by changing lanes and knowing 360 degree obstacles than it’s only a matter of time before lifts run fully autonomously. I mean compared to a car it seems pretty easy.
while I’m on these wild ideas, fuck a lift all together. Get Elon Musk and the Boring Co to dig under ground tunnels to get people up the hill fast. Similar to those tubes at the post office. Imagine how sick it would be to ski with out seeing ask the lifts?! Also, no wind hold and your out of the elements on those fridged days. Get your shot together Elon!!
Lol. Maybe he can build a rocket that just shoots us to the top.
BrightFrog“10 hour days three weeks straight” yeah buddy sounds real tough. Almost like you have any normal job in the working world, except you take more time off.
you trying to become new skierman?
it's funny that this debate is finally heating up, but years ago when vail was just starting to acquire more mountains, nobody had anything bad to say about it. you would be deemed ungrateful for not appreciating the slightly cheaper season pass and access to other resorts around the country. people are shortsighted.
this is indeed another instance of corporatization and monopolization. now, a few years later, we can start to see some of the externalities of the situation. i don't think it will be solved by the municipalities in which these corporations operate; we haven't seen that outcome in any other industry in the country. i believe the onus is on the vails and alterras to radically alter their business models. which certainly won't happen. i don't think a bandaid of slightly higher wages (or a 15$ minimum wage) will change anything either.
ideally, all ski resorts would be locally run. that's about as close as i can get to a solution. i think the biggest problem really comes down to the fact that vail and others bring in out-of-state vacationers to make their money. they don't necessarily need any sort of local community other than a work force.
r00kieNS hive mind at work in this thread where people think supply and demand don't apply to the labor market, especially ski industry jobs. Loke lonely said, if you want to make more you gotta work where there is less supply of workers. Come to the Midwest. I made $25 an hour before tips instructing last year and we were still short on staff. Go where everyone is expect to be paid less. Bring on the downvotes.
If they're relying on j1's this heavily clearly they aren't able to meet the demand for workers. Weird angle all the "the market will sort itself out" types are taking while somehow ignoring what the market is doing.
Another great "I found somewhere that paid well so fuck everyone else" vibes.
donotreplyUpdate I’m about to quit my corporate job for this town haha yeah I put a lot of thoughts before making this happen
Its probably listed in this thread but im not about the reading lol. What job for what town? Are you leaving a corporate job to move to the town of your dreams or does the town somehow own or revolve around the corporation you work at??
theabortionatorIf they're relying on j1's this heavily clearly they aren't able to meet the demand for workers. Weird angle all the "the market will sort itself out" types are taking while somehow ignoring what the market is doing.
Another great "I found somewhere that paid well so fuck everyone else" vibes.
No. If more people left jobs that didn't pay well it wouldn't fuck people over, it would force the companies that don't pay shit to pay more.
BiffbarfNo. If more people left jobs that didn't pay well it wouldn't fuck people over, it would force the companies that don't pay shit to pay more.
What part of the j1 visa thing aren't you grasping. They are hurting for workers, and they're importing them from other countries on that visa.
Sure with more skilled jobs this is different but everyone in this thread has reverted back to lower skilled jobs mostly and ignored the more skilled labor.
Gas stations couldn't find people, they paid more, fast food couldn't find people, they paid more. Ski areas couldn't find workers, and went on a huge campaign marketing to people in South America to highlight a sick vacation in America, because it's way cheaper and easier for them to fill the roles with J1's and many of them don't care about the $ just the visa.
theabortionatorWhat part of the j1 visa thing aren't you grasping. They are hurting for workers, and they're importing them from other countries on that visa.
Sure with more skilled jobs this is different but everyone in this thread has reverted back to lower skilled jobs mostly and ignored the more skilled labor.
Gas stations couldn't find people, they paid more, fast food couldn't find people, they paid more. Ski areas couldn't find workers, and went on a huge campaign marketing to people in South America to highlight a sick vacation in America, because it's way cheaper and easier for them to fill the roles with J1's and many of them don't care about the $ just the visa.
Until there's no more people who will do more for less, nothing will change. It's ironic how against importing labor you are considering that's a major conservative talking point. You're a half step away from TOOK ER JABS
BiffbarfUntil there's no more people who will do more for less, nothing will change. It's ironic how against importing labor you are considering that's a major conservative talking point. You're a half step away from TOOK ER JABS
I was going to say that for you. I don't remember anything specific but you seem more in that camp.
They took are jerbs is racist people scared of hispanic people living here. Actively going out and recruiting in another country just to avoid paying a local enough to pay rent and buy groceries is kinda different though.
Again, as someone who travels I like visas. A lot of them are restrictive to wear the company has to show that they cannot find enough skilled people for the job. This visa is more to give students the opportunity to come here and work which is sweet. The ski industry hit pay dirt and will exploit the fuck out of it until something changes.
But whatever. Based on your posts generally I'm sure we'll never agree on this or most things.
patagonialukeYeah, CB is very behind the 8 ball on it. That said, it's also wild how little Vail has done — they reportedly haven't been involved in basically any of the projects the local gov has been working on this summer (including buying a B&B that they're now renting to locals, and several bigger development projects that are 1-5 years out), despite Vail being the biggest employer here. Comes across like Vail is just hoping the towns figure it out for them.
At some point before the Alterra takeover, Sugarbush in Vermont started a program ("Tenants for Turns") that gave homeowners extremely discounted seasons passes (I think $100) if they rented a room or property to a Sugarbush employee for the winter.
Obviously anybody who knows the Mad River Valley knows its still expensive to live there and this program is not really enough, but it sure as hell beats doing nothing. I *think* Alterra allowed them to continue this policy too, although this is the only Alterra mountain to do so that I've heard about.
theabortionatorI was going to say that for you. I don't remember anything specific but you seem more in that camp.
They took are jerbs is racist people scared of hispanic people living here. Actively going out and recruiting in another country just to avoid paying a local enough to pay rent and buy groceries is kinda different though.
...no. race has nothing to do with it. It's the exact same thing you're describing.
If enough americans don't want to scrub toilets, work fast food, bump lifts, pick onions, etc. The demand and therefore wage for those positions will increase unless foreigners are exploited. Often times, the opportunity is worth it for them however their employment, legal or not, takes away the opportunity for wages to increase for the local labor force. You can disagree all you want, but this isn't opinion, it's just how things work.
Now you can say things like, they should get a living wage for working full time. That's a valid opinion. The only problem with that is for foreigners coming from nothing, their interpretation of a living wage is drastically different than what a majority of americans want.
