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The CDC and the government let us have our fun for the summer, now we have to muzzle ourselves and the children again. The media talks about cases but rarely touches upon deaths. I thought that from the beginning of the vaccination campaign that people understood that the vaccine would lessen the symptoms of Covid but not necessarily deter it. Why are people getting all freaked out about cases!? We should be focusing on death rate and treating the cases.
Yes, more people need to get vaccinated.
I do not think the government has the right to mandate it, but if they do, so be it. People will not be happy with it.
We should NOT be masking children as their case rate, transmission rate, and mortality rate are next to nothing. At this point it is just political theatre to mask them. And I do not see how the CDC made the decision to lift the mask mandate in May, but now it is crucial.
It is all a mess and I feel bad for our kids that have to keep living through this. The blame is not on Trump voters, there are plenty of people in blue areas not getting vaccinated.
I do not know the solution, but it all feels very wrong.
LonelyOkay, is it selfish to want restaurants and grocery stores to have mandated guidelines they need to follow in regards to public health?
You're just building up straw man arguments. Everyone agrees basic guidelines are needed in that. It is however very different from mandating health decisions of an individual, such as a vaccine.
r00kieYou're just building up straw man arguments. Everyone agrees basic guidelines are needed in that. It is however very different from mandating health decisions of an individual, such as a vaccine.
Are those not both public health? Don't nearly all school districts mandate that you get vaccines?
r00kieYou're just building up straw man arguments. Everyone agrees basic guidelines are needed in that. It is however very different from mandating health decisions of an individual, such as a vaccine.
Doesn't it seem somewhat silly to say that we need to mandate the practices of restaurants and the ways the owners and individuals who work there act for the sake of public health but we should never mandate public health policies for a contagious disease that has killed over 600,000 Americans in a year and a half?
Why are some stringent mandates are okay in restaurants to prevent the occasional death from poor practice but simple mandates to limit the amount of spread and negative effects of a contagious disease that has killed many times more not okay?
LonelyDoesn't it seem somewhat silly to say that we need to mandate the practices of restaurants and the ways the owners and individuals who work there act for the sake of public health but we should never mandate public health policies for a contagious disease that has killed over 600,000 Americans in a year and a half?
Why are some stringent mandates are okay in restaurants to prevent the occasional death from poor practice but simple mandates to limit the amount of spread and negative effects of a contagious disease that has killed many times more not okay?
Restaurant workers shouldn't be mandated to wash their hands. It's their health choice! Freedom!!!!
LonelyDoesn't it seem somewhat silly to say that we need to mandate the practices of restaurants and the ways the owners and individuals who work there act for the sake of public health but we should never mandate public health policies for a contagious disease that has killed over 600,000 Americans in a year and a half?
Why are some stringent mandates are okay in restaurants to prevent the occasional death from poor practice but simple mandates to limit the amount of spread and negative effects of a contagious disease that has killed many times more not okay?
Because one is controling on an individual basis. Medical freedom, the ability to decide what is best for your own health. I'm glad the vaccine is available for those who view it as the best method for watching out their personal health. I also defend the right of others who pass on the vaccine because they believe it is best for their personal health.
LonelyI see this talking point a lot, and again, I don't see claims from anyone worth anything in the scientific community that this will entirely stop the spread, you CAN still spread it if you have the vaccine but the AMOUNT of spread among those who are vaccinated is significantly lower.
In the same way we don't imply that seatbelts are useless because some people wearing seatbelts still die, the benefits of the vaccine, while not absolute, are much much better than the alternative.
That being said, I feel like if seatbelt wearing was trying to be mandated now....it would never pass.
I'm not sure data supports this. Even in Vermont where the vast majority of people are vaccinated cases are far higher this summer than they were last summer looking at april through July data.
BiffbarfI'm not sure data supports this. Even in Vermont where the vast majority of people are vaccinated cases are far higher this summer than they were last summer looking at april through July data.
The delta strain spreads faster and easier no? And there are no mask mandates or basically any rules to prevent the spread, unlike last summer.
eheathMaybe thats because people are refusing to get the vaccine... sometimes i feel like i'm just slamming my head into a wall.
How can you blame the very small minority of people in states like vermont who haven't been vaccinated for the amount of cases that have greatly surpassed the amount at this time last summer when there was no vaccine? I'm just looking at data my dude, and it's pretty accepted that you can still catch, carry, and spread covid when you're vaccinated.
BiffbarfHow can you blame the very small minority of people in states like vermont who haven't been vaccinated for the amount of cases that have greatly surpassed the amount at this time last summer when there was no vaccine? I'm just looking at data my dude, and it's pretty accepted that you can still catch, carry, and spread covid when you're vaccinated.
But if you're vaccinated, you don't get sick (minus the breakthrough which is normal) and its harder to spread/mutate, also just facts and data.
There are definitely enough people not vax'd in vermont to cause a larger spike, the last summer averaged like 5 cases a day and now its up to 45 a day, you are correct about the numbers but you're framing it in a way to fit your agenda, nice try brother.
eheathBut if you're vaccinated, you don't get sick (minus the breakthrough which is normal) and its harder to spread/mutate, also just facts and data.
There are definitely enough people not vax'd in vermont to cause a larger spike, the last summer averaged like 5 cases a day and now its up to 45 a day, you are correct about the numbers but you're framing it in a way to fit your agenda, nice try brother.
BiffbarfHow can you blame the very small minority of people in states like vermont who haven't been vaccinated for the amount of cases that have greatly surpassed the amount at this time last summer when there was no vaccine? I'm just looking at data my dude, and it's pretty accepted that you can still catch, carry, and spread covid when you're vaccinated.
Think a little critically here man. Vermont is a pretty rural state without cities and a low population density. It's pretty clear that Covid reached it much later when you see the initial spike in their cases. You're also comparing peak Covid hysteria Vermont with newly reopened Vermont where people are seeing each other and gathering again sans mask mandate.
You are less likely to contract Covid when vaccinated. If you're less likely to contract it, you're less likely to spread it. Its not fucking rocket appliances.
You're trying to say vaccines aren't effective against slowing down case spikes when they absolutely do, you're getting so far fetched it feels like you just want to argue with me cause you don't like me, which is fine but you're just embarrassing yourself.
eheathYou're trying to say vaccines aren't effective against slowing down case spikes when they absolutely do, you're getting so far fetched it feels like you just want to argue with me cause you don't like me, which is fine but you're just embarrassing yourself.
I just want to know how effective. All I hear is 'it does' but I want to see the quantifiable data that supports it. Even in population dense urban areas in CO where vaccine compliance is very high, covid cases are higher than they were last summer. Then the unvax'd are blamed even though they're a stark minority. I can't stand hearing opinions that are backed with 'well, because'. I want to see data.
BiffbarfI just want to know how effective. All I hear is 'it does' but I want to see the quantifiable data that supports it. Even in population dense urban areas in CO where vaccine compliance is very high, covid cases are higher than they were last summer. Then the unvax'd are blamed even though they're a stark minority. I can't stand hearing opinions that are backed with 'well, because'. I want to see data.
BiffbarfI just want to know how effective. All I hear is 'it does' but I want to see the quantifiable data that supports it. Even in population dense urban areas in CO where vaccine compliance is very high, covid cases are higher than they were last summer. Then the unvax'd are blamed even though they're a stark minority. I can't stand hearing opinions that are backed with 'well, because'. I want to see data.
As I'm sure you know, the data on this one is tricky.
That said, 80% of people older than 65 have been fully vaccinated. In the last month, the case rate per 100,000 people has only increased by 3.8 in the group between the ages of 65-74 and 1.5 in the group of people 75 years old and older. That compares to people between the ages of 18 and 39, where the case rate per 100,000 people has increased by 22. The rate of full vaccination in that younger group is much lower.
There is similar data in England.
"'I think people who are vaccinated are not, on a population level, major contributors to the transmission of the disease,' Dr. David Dowdy, a Johns Hopkins University epidemiologist, told me.
Part of the reason is that vaccinated people are both less likely to get infected and less likely to pass on the virus even if they do get infected, scientists say. A vaccinated person without Covid symptoms seems especially unlikely to infect somebody else.
'What is clear is that people who are vaccinated and have symptomatic breakthrough infections can transmit it to other people,' Dr. Ashish Jha of Brown University said. 'What is not at all clear is whether vaccinated asymptomatic people can transmit it. And my best guess is no — or not very often.'"
BiffbarfI just want to know how effective. All I hear is 'it does' but I want to see the quantifiable data that supports it. Even in population dense urban areas in CO where vaccine compliance is very high, covid cases are higher than they were last summer. Then the unvax'd are blamed even though they're a stark minority. I can't stand hearing opinions that are backed with 'well, because'. I want to see data.
Hey Tucker Carlson, maybe if you spent some time looking for the answers instead of arguing against those who cannot provide the data, you'd find the answer you're looking for. You are a fucking jackass.
deathcookieAs I'm sure you know, the data on this one is tricky.
That said, 80% of people older than 65 have been fully vaccinated. In the last month, the case rate per 100,000 people has only increased by 3.8 in the group between the ages of 65-74 and 1.5 in the group of people 75 years old and older. That compares to people between the ages of 18 and 39, where the case rate per 100,000 people has increased by 22. The rate of full vaccination in that younger group is much lower.
There is similar data in England.
"'I think people who are vaccinated are not, on a population level, major contributors to the transmission of the disease,' Dr. David Dowdy, a Johns Hopkins University epidemiologist, told me.
Part of the reason is that vaccinated people are both less likely to get infected and less likely to pass on the virus even if they do get infected, scientists say. A vaccinated person without Covid symptoms seems especially unlikely to infect somebody else.
'What is clear is that people who are vaccinated and have symptomatic breakthrough infections can transmit it to other people,' Dr. Ashish Jha of Brown University said. 'What is not at all clear is whether vaccinated asymptomatic people can transmit it. And my best guess is no — or not very often.'"
Of course, since they study the disease, you probably don't believe them.
**This post was edited on Aug 4th 2021 at 7:20:31pm
I'd like to specify from your very quote "What is not at all clear is whether vaccinated asymptomatic people can transmit it." Thank you for answering nothing.
skiermanHey Tucker Carlson, maybe if you spent some time looking for the answers instead of arguing against those who cannot provide the data, you'd find the answer you're looking for. You are a fucking jackass.
My fav part about this is to make this 'insult' you've probably jacked off to enough tucker carlson in a heated rage thinking this would be absolute kryptonite to randos who you just assume to be his follower lmao
BiffbarfI'd like to specify from your very quote "What is not at all clear is whether vaccinated asymptomatic people can transmit it." Thank you for answering nothing.
My fav part about this is to make this 'insult' you've probably jacked off to enough tucker carlson in a heated rage thinking this would be absolute kryptonite to randos who you just assume to be his follower lmao
Did the rest of the data not please you, or did you just not understand it (likely)?
deathcookieDid the rest of the data not please you, or did you just not understand it (likely)?
Comparing case rates vaccinated elderly people to a conglomerate of vaxd and unvaxd people is hardly apples to apples. Why the insults? If you're trying to prove a point or educate the best way isn't to shit on people.
BiffbarfComparing case rates vaccinated elderly people to a conglomerate of vaxd and unvaxd people is hardly apples to apples. Why the insults? If you're trying to prove a point or educate the best way isn't to shit on people.
Ok, so you didn't understand it. It compared case rates in all elderly people (vaccinated and unvaccinated) to case rates in younger people (vaccinated and unvaccinated). The older people have higher vaccination rates and lower case rates, and the younger people have lower vaccination rates and higher case rates.
deathcookieOk, so you didn't understand it. It compared case rates in all elderly people (vaccinated and unvaccinated) to case rates in younger people (vaccinated and unvaccinated). The older people have higher vaccination rates and lower case rates, and the younger people have lower vaccination rates and higher case rates.
Comparing elderly cases to young cases means nothing. Of course people 75 and older are more vaccinated and don't spread anything, they don't do anything. You really think that's a valid comparison?
BiffbarfComparing elderly cases to young cases means nothing. Of course people 75 and older are more vaccinated and don't spread anything, they don't do anything. You really think that's a valid comparison?
BiffbarfComparing elderly cases to young cases means nothing. Of course people 75 and older are more vaccinated and don't spread anything, they don't do anything. You really think that's a valid comparison?
It is a valid comparison, because it compares the prior case rates to the current ones. It's the increase in case rates, not the total of the case rates here. If breakthrough infections were common, then the case rate would be increasing substantially in the more vaccinated age groups, but it isn't.
Also, you just ignored the 65 and older age group mentioned.
**This post was edited on Aug 4th 2021 at 8:07:53pm
deathcookieIt is a valid comparison, because it compares the prior case rates to the current ones. It's the increase in case rates, not the total of the case rates here. If breakthrough infections were common, then the case rate would be increasing substantially in the more vaccinated age groups, but it isn't.
Also, you just ignored the 65 and older age group mentioned.
**This post was edited on Aug 4th 2021 at 8:07:53pm
Breakthrough infections — in which vaccinated people nonetheless get the Covid-19 virus — are one of those vexing topics that can be difficult to put in perspective.
On the one hand, breakthrough infections are obviously occurring. They’ve happened to the New York Yankees and to White House officials, as well at summer gatherings in Massachusetts, Oklahoma and elsewhere. My colleague Liam Stack recently got sick with a breakthrough infection (and I’ll tell you his story below).
On the other hand, the scale of breakthrough infections remains unclear. Are they a significant reason that cases are now surging in the U.S. — and a reason for vaccinated people to be concerned? Or are breakthrough infections rare exceptions that receive outsize attention?
Those are two very different scenarios. If breakthrough infections are an important source of Covid spread, it would suggest that vaccinated people should resume some of their previous precautions, like avoiding crowded places. If Covid is instead spreading overwhelmingly among the unvaccinated, it would suggest that the behavior of the vaccinated doesn’t matter very much; the only reliable way to reduce caseloads would involve more vaccinations.
I’m going to warn you up front that I don’t have a definitive answer for you. “There’s a lot of uncertainty right now,” as Natalie Dean, a biostatistician at Emory University, told me. But there is some evidence that can help you think through the situation while scientists collect more data.
What we know
Let’s start with a few facts that are clear:
Vaccinated people are nearly guaranteed not to be hospitalized or killed by Covid.
Among children under 12, who remain ineligible for the vaccine, serious forms of Covid are also extremely rare. Children face bigger risks when they ride in a car.
The Delta variant does not appear to change either of those facts.
Millions of unvaccinated American adults are vulnerable to hospitalization or death from Covid.
Given all of this, the most effective Covid-fighting strategy has not changed, experts say: “Shots in arms,” as my colleague Apoorva Mandavilli writes. Or as Dean says, “The biggest problem is that there are a lot of people with no protection.”
And there are measures that would almost certainly increase vaccinations: Full F.D.A. approval (which hasn’t happened despite public endorsements of the vaccines by the F.D.A.’s leaders); vaccine mandates from employers and local governments; and pro-vaccination messages from Republican politicians, professional athletes and other people who have credibility among vaccine skeptics. Any of these steps would almost certainly have a bigger effect than behavioral changes among the vaccinated.
Still, I understand why many vaccinated people are wondering if they should change their behavior. I feel the same way. I don’t want to contribute to the spread of the virus, and I would rather not contract even a modest version of Covid.
Among other reasons, the risks of “long Covid” remain uncertain. Yes, those risks get exaggerated sometimes: Many viruses, like influenza, cause long-term symptoms, and some of the focus on long Covid stems from society’s current obsession with all things Covid. There is still no rigorous study that compares long Covid with “long flu.” But long Covid is probably worse, which argues for caution.
What we don’t know
How common, then, are breakthrough infections?
One reason for optimism is the recent trend among the most vaccinated segments of society: older people. About 80 percent of Americans over age 65 have been fully vaccinated. This chart looks at the U.S. since late June, when cases began rising:
This chart looks at England — where more than 90 percent of older people are vaccinated — since late May, when cases began rising there.
As you can see, new cases have risen only modestly among people over 65, suggesting that breakthrough infections are rare. “I think people who are vaccinated are not, on a population level, major contributors to the transmission of the disease,” Dr. David Dowdy, a Johns Hopkins University epidemiologist, told me.
Part of the reason is that vaccinated people are both less likely to get infected and less likely to pass on the virus even if they do get infected, scientists say. A vaccinated person without Covid symptoms seems especially unlikely to infect somebody else.
“What is clear is that people who are vaccinated and have symptomatic breakthrough infections can transmit it to other people,” Dr. Ashish Jha of Brown University said. “What is not at all clear is whether vaccinated asymptomatic people can transmit it. And my best guess is no — or not very often.”
He added: “I’m not worried about an asymptomatic vaccinated person spreading it to me.”
Of course, a vaccinated person can still get the virus from somebody who has symptoms or hasn’t been vaccinated. Liam Stack, a Times reporter who covers religion, was fully vaccinated by April but nonetheless caught the virus in June, probably socializing with friends, either at a bar or a beach house, he says.
“It was not the sickest I’ve ever been, but it was very disruptive,” he told me. He was sick for a full week, with flulike symptoms, including congestion, muscle aches and fatigue. One day, he took a three-hour nap around lunchtime, followed by a two-hour nap before dinner.
Liam is feeling better now, and, as far as he knows, none of his friends or family members contracted the virus from him. But he does not recommend the experience. “It was unpleasant,” he said.
The bottom line
Different vaccinated people are going to make different decisions, and that’s OK. I find the risk of breakthrough infections to be small enough that I’m not going to make major changes to my behavior.
I would feel differently if I lived in a community with a lower vaccination rate — or if I lived with somebody who was vulnerable to Covid because of an immunodeficiency. And the current surge in cases has changed my thinking. I will again wear a mask sometimes when in close contact with strangers, even if it has little tangible effect. The main reason to do so, as Dowdy said, is to contribute to a shared sense that we have entered a worrisome new phase of the pandemic.
It’s also important that the country not respond in ways that would do more harm than good — say, by delaying the full reopening of schools, Dowdy added. For vaccinated people, Covid still represents a very small risk, and the cost of our response should not exceed the benefits.
But when cases are surging, as they are now, our approach to Covid should be different than when they are plunging.
**This post was edited on Aug 4th 2021 at 8:20:56pm
LonelyAren't vaccines already compulsory? At least if you want to go to public schools, or be in the military, or travel to countries, or work in certain industries
Again, since you're not paying attention to what's already been talked about in this thread, you're talking about traditional vaccines that are actually FDA approved with decades worth of data to support their effectiveness.
If people really don't want those FDA approved vaccines, they can go to private schools/homeschool, not travel to 3rd world countries, not join the military, and not work in certain industries.
We were about to send my toddler to part time daycare but didnt seem right doing it while we start peaking. Kids cant be vaccinated yet so my vote is yes mask up in ages where they can.
Seems dumb to both put yourself in position to get long term effects from virus, but also possible long term effects of vaccine. Im guessing in the future though RNA vaccines will be everywhere
eheathmaybe you can enlighten me on what you were trying to say here then, because if its not about vaccines then what is it bro?
I'm saying I have no personal need for a vaccine.
I'm saying that any person that demands or tries to guilt me into getting the vaccine should mind their business.
I'm saying that the government has no business demanding that I put anything into my body. Especially a vaccine that they themselves haven't even approved beyond an "emergency authorization".
I'm saying businesses currently seem to have the right to discriminate based on a persons biological makeup, and even though I don't really agree with it, I'm happy and content taking my business elsewhere without throwing a hissy fit at the door.
What the hell else do you need an explanation for?
LonelyI see this talking point a lot, and again, I don't see claims from anyone worth anything in the scientific community that this will entirely stop the spread, you CAN still spread it if you have the vaccine but the AMOUNT of spread among those who are vaccinated is significantly lower.
In the same way we don't imply that seatbelts are useless because some people wearing seatbelts still die, the benefits of the vaccine, while not absolute, are much much better than the alternative.
That being said, I feel like if seatbelt wearing was trying to be mandated now....it would never pass.
"During July 2021, 469 cases of COVID-19 associated with multiple summer events and large public gatherings in a town in Barnstable County, Massachusetts, were identified among Massachusetts residents; vaccination coverage among eligible Massachusetts residents was 69%. Approximately three quarters (346; 74%) of cases occurred in fully vaccinated persons (those who had completed a 2-dose course of mRNA vaccine [Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna] or had received a single dose of Janssen [Johnson & Johnson] vaccine ≥14 days before exposure). Genomic sequencing of specimens from 133 patients identified the B.1.617.2 (Delta) variant of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, in 119 (89%) and the Delta AY.3 sublineage in one (1%). Overall, 274 (79%) vaccinated patients with breakthrough infection were symptomatic. Among five COVID-19 patients who were hospitalized, four were fully vaccinated; no deaths were reported."
T.L.I'm saying businesses currently seem to have the right to discriminate based on a persons biological makeup, and even though I don't really agree with it, I'm happy and content taking my business elsewhere without throwing a hissy fit at the door.
What the hell else do you need an explanation?
Why do conservatives want to play the victim so bad?
T.L.Why do you consistently add the least amount of value to threads where adults are talking?
Go sit at the kids table.
Yeah, the guy who has lived in a ski town for years, working a min wage job for the mountain is an “adult”. It’s comical that you’re the one calling me the kid.
CLQYeah, the guy who has lived in a ski town for years, working a min wage job for the mountain is an “adult”. It’s comical that you’re the one calling me the kid.
.MASSHOLE.One could just as easily argue that the fact that staying unemployed because it provides higher income than working means wage rates are too low.
Unsurprisingly, there's a lot of evidence out there that supports this as well.
I don’t think that article once mentioned wages in the sense that employees are being underpaid, more that there is simply a lack of transparency on starting wages. Pretty irrelevant to the argument at hand if you ask me.
Did you miss the part where the article said the most current data would be released mid August? Because otherwise it seems there is a correlation between increased local labor supply and ending the enhanced unemployment benefit early. I’m willing to bet the new data will confirm this. [/quote] Furthermore:
Aside from this quote at the beginning of the article there was nothing else (and no statistics) in the article to suggest, or even back up, what the author stated. If you took the time to read it you’d realize vaccinations we’re never cited as a catalyst to this economic growth.
**This post was edited on Aug 3rd 2021 at 7:58:52pm[/quote]
See bold responses.
