How to leverage power in ski area decision making as season passholders/locals

byuboundSolitude was hyping the change as an environmental initiative before they made the shift a couple years ago. If it really did work and they have less cars coming up, why haven't they been bragging about it on social media and such? It isn't like it's hard to check how many cars are using their parking system compared to passes scanned and then add a rough estimate of cars out on the road. My evidence may be anecdotal for sure, but I'll take anecdotal over nonexistent.

Ski resorts couldn't care less about locals or the environment, because neither of these things generate short term profits and growth.

Neither of us really know if it worked or not, only solitude knows that. Charging for parking does more for carpool than not charging, if every resort adopted this kind of system you might see some change.

eheathI also thought of something here that i missed before, paid parking is something they're doing to decrease traffic, its not just a money grab, but charging for parking encourages carpooling which would hopefully contribute to less traffic.

Make no mistake, paid parking is something they're doing to milk more $$ out of skiers, and then trying to justify it with environmental concerns for PR reasons. The fact they they're not even letting full cars park for free is proof, they came out and said they rely on the revenues so they can't let cars park for free, even full to the brim with carpoolers.

Then the Bird giving ski bums the big middle finger, killing local ski culture one money grabbing move at a time, you hate to see it.

I'm going to lump into that whole conversation the ridiculous LCC gondola system debate, which would certainly not reduce traffic on those big days, canyon is still going to be clogged regardless, it would only benefit resorts while being paid by taxpayers, has zero support from the public, bad for the environment, etc., etc. but my guess is that it's still going to go forward despite the uproar because $$$ wins.

An effective way is to go to a different ski resort, one that isn’t owned by a massive corporation. But obviously you’re just going to continue to buy a Snowbird pass. Don’t kid yourself.

Monsieur_PatateMake no mistake, paid parking is something they're doing to milk more $$ out of skiers, and then trying to justify it with environmental concerns for PR reasons. The fact they they're not even letting full cars park for free is proof, they came out and said they rely on the revenues so they can't let cars park for free, even full to the brim with carpoolers.

Then the Bird giving ski bums the big middle finger, killing local ski culture one money grabbing move at a time, you hate to see it.

I'm going to lump into that whole conversation the ridiculous LCC gondola system debate, which would certainly not reduce traffic on those big days, canyon is still going to be clogged regardless, it would only benefit resorts while being paid by taxpayers, has zero support from the public, bad for the environment, etc., etc. but my guess is that it's still going to go forward despite the uproar because $$$ wins.

But it costs significantly less to park a car of 4 ($5) vs 1 ($20). Like I said, its clearly a money grab but its also an attempt to lower the number of cars going up the canyon. It does it in two ways, it encourages people who don't want to pay to take the bus and it encourages people to get 4 in their car to pay the minimum amount, if you think that idea doesn't lower the number of cars in theory, idk what to tell you. We don't have the numbers, we likely won't unless solitude decides to tell us.

The main issue right now is that the last 3-4 years (especially last year) were much more busy than usual, their efforts to lower the amount of cars in the canyon is tough to measure when there are 2-3x people going to the resort than there was 5 years ago.

eheathNeither of us really know if it worked or not, only solitude knows that. Charging for parking does more for carpool than not charging, if every resort adopted this kind of system you might see some change.

So why do you think solitude hasn't released this data? Seems improbable that it doesn't exist or it wouldn't be easy enough to collect, and if the paid parking really worked it would be an easy win for them.

byuboundSo why do you think solitude hasn't released this data? Seems improbable that it doesn't exist or it wouldn't be easy enough to collect, and if the paid parking really worked it would be an easy win for them.

You're pushing tin hat territory here brother. Like I said, paid parking is good for profits but its a drop in the bucket.

eheathYou're pushing tin hat territory here brother. Like I said, paid parking is good for profits but its a drop in the bucket.

Do you think the resorts care if it's a 'drop in the bucket'? Their entire purpose is to milk every penny they can from the tourist. Any tiny weakness they can find to add value to their business is worth it to the resort over a few seasons of thousands of visitors paying $10 a day for parking.

byuboundDo you think the resorts care if it's a 'drop in the bucket'? Their entire purpose is to milk every penny they can from the tourist. Any tiny weakness they can find to add value to their business is worth it to the resort over a few seasons of thousands of visitors paying $10 a day for parking.

I think they care more about being sustainable and shaping their business for the future, reducing canyon traffic is good for anyone, its not some smokescreen to hide 1% of their profits.

eheathI think they care more about being sustainable and shaping their business for the future, reducing canyon traffic is good for anyone, its not some smokescreen to hide 1% of their profits.

Aight cool, my observations lead me to believe otherwise but I won't argue with you on the motives of people I've never met. Keep in mind though that someone on the board of Vail or Alterra or whatever likely only has 10 years or so left in their career, so their compensation and retirement money is based on the growth of the company in that period. Saying they care about what happens beyond that is optimistic at best.

eheathBut it costs significantly less to park a car of 4 ($5) vs 1 ($20). Like I said, its clearly a money grab but its also an attempt to lower the number of cars going up the canyon. It does it in two ways, it encourages people who don't want to pay to take the bus and it encourages people to get 4 in their car to pay the minimum amount, if you think that idea doesn't lower the number of cars in theory, idk what to tell you. We don't have the numbers, we likely won't unless solitude decides to tell us.

The main issue right now is that the last 3-4 years (especially last year) were much more busy than usual, their efforts to lower the amount of cars in the canyon is tough to measure when there are 2-3x people going to the resort than there was 5 years ago.

Without empirical data, a theoretical idea doesn't really mean much, but sure, there might a silver lining effect to that money grabbing move that leads to people carpooling more, but:
A. I think you're overestimating that effect, my guess is it's a drop in the bucket
B. This doesn't change the fact that this is not the reason they implemented it

Happy to change my tune if we see some data showing that the positive environmental impact of the measure outweighs the additional financial burden put on skiers. The fact Solitude is not sharing any data is probably a good hint that it's probably not that good.

Moreover pushing carpooling is great, but if you end up with the same number of cars and just more skiers, then it doesn't help anyone, (except the resorts I guess) and one has to wonder what the skiing experience impact of those measures is. Pumping more people up to resorts that are already at capacity just means making lift lines even longer and freshies fewer, not very enticing. Everyone is talking about finding ways to solve the traffic issue, but the skiing experience is completely overlooked.

If like you said reducing canyon traffic really is everyone's #1 priority, then why not start with a gate at the bottom and only allow X cars up the canyon a day (and make that number match the parking capacity). Then people can still take the bus after the cutoff is met. Plenty of simple and inexpensive solutions to try and explore before making all parking paid or building a fucking gondola for half a billion while destroying the environment and climbing routes.

Monsieur_PatateWithout empirical data, a theoretical idea doesn't really mean much, but sure, there might a silver lining effect to that money grabbing move that leads to people carpooling more, but:
A. I think you're overestimating that effect, my guess is it's a drop in the bucket
B. This doesn't change the fact that this is not the reason they implemented it

Happy to change my tune if we see some data showing that the positive environmental impact of the measure outweighs the additional financial burden put on skiers. The fact Solitude is not sharing any data is probably a good hint that it's probably not that good.

Moreover pushing carpooling is great, but if you end up with the same number of cars and just more skiers, then it doesn't help anyone, (except the resorts I guess) and one has to wonder what the skiing experience impact of those measures is. Pumping more people up to resorts that are already at capacity just means making lift lines even longer and freshies fewer, not very enticing. Everyone is talking about finding ways to solve the traffic issue, but the skiing experience is completely overlooked.

If like you said reducing canyon traffic really is everyone's #1 priority, then why not start with a gate at the bottom and only allow X cars up the canyon a day (and make that number match the parking capacity). Then people can still take the bus after the cutoff is met. Plenty of simple and inexpensive solutions to try and explore before making all parking paid or building a fucking gondola for half a billion while destroying the environment and climbing routes.

So what do you think they should do? have free parking and let it be a shit show? Limiting cars will never be a thing, a small amount of people who go up the canyon aren't going to the resorts, especially in BCC. Widening the road is probably not gonna happen, increasing the amounts of busses could help but I don't really see any other way the resorts could help limit traffic.

eheathSo what do you think they should do? have free parking and let it be a shit show? Limiting cars will never be a thing, a small amount of people who go up the canyon aren't going to the resorts, especially in BCC. Widening the road is probably not gonna happen, increasing the amounts of busses could help but I don't really see any other way the resorts could help limit traffic.

What are you talking about, how is free parking making is a shit show? Parking is fine at Brighton/Alta and it's still free, making it paid doesn't change a fucking thing about the parking experience dude, your parking spot at Soli is the exact same it was 2 years ago, but now you have to fork over 10 bucks to park there, the only thing that's different is your wallet getting lighter. Parking is still full on weekends and powder days, it hasn't put a dent in the traffic issues in BCC, the only difference is skiers are paying more and Soli was able to up their margins a couple of points. So yeah, if it's not going to change a fucking thing, might as well keep parking free is my point.

On the second issue, I didn't say limit cars to the number of parking spots at the resorts, but the entire parking capacity in the canyon, they can count all the trailhead lots, idc. That way you could also limit parking on the side of the road udot has been complaining about. But forget about it, my point wasn't that this is the silver bullet idea, just that there are simpler, cheaper options to explore before going the gondola route, because on top of being incredibly expensive, a gondola would do absolutely nothing to limit traffic, it will only funnel more people up once lots are full, but I guarantee you 1000% that on those big days they're trying to solve for, lots will still be full, and traffic will still be a fucking mess, but we'll be collectively half a billion poorer, just a dumb idea.

CLQAn effective way is to go to a different ski resort, one that isn’t owned by a massive corporation. But obviously you’re just going to continue to buy a Snowbird pass. Don’t kid yourself.

I think like over half of everything here in UT is owned by some form of mega corp whether it be Alterra, Powdr, Boyne, or Epic. 4-5 other places to choose from that are worth checking out but are a long drive for some folks, are pretty small, don't get nearly as much snow, and adding to another resorts congestion issues because you don't want to be a part of your own home mtn's is kinda wack tbh. I live near Sundance resort outside of Provo/Heber and its got awful lines now because people simply just don't want to put up with the Cottonwood Canyon shitshows. Can't blame them honestly. I sometimes prefer to ski over at PC or DV because they're both like 30 min drives from my house and traffic is sometimes way less so I totally get it.

I've bitched about it enough lol but it is what it is. Snowbird at least has reached the "Pricing people out" range whereas other resorts at least offer a mid-week or even a twilight pass for really cheap giving incentive to a lot more people to ride. They're Jackson Hole prices now and stay open just as long which isn't at all haha. While Brighton is still on the Ikon, that place still gives some sort of value to not just locals but anyone who wants to ride there and that's cool. Proud to ski there when I was a grom. I don't hate places like Alta and Bird for trying to make money but yeah, doesn't really help with "Getting stoked" on those places anymore and add to their obvious issues (congestion, crowds, bad vibes, etc.), Just doesn't hit as hard as it used too. Still fun skiing when its there, and the pendulum does swing back eventually every now and then, but I'm just happy to have had plenty of seasons skiing the cottonwoods on ridiculous days before it got overwhelmed. Just be happy for the good moments you've been able to have and focus on that with skiing I guess, idk. Everyone in Utah just wants to complain nowadays lol.

Monsieur_PatateWhat are you talking about, how is free parking making is a shit show? Parking is fine at Brighton/Alta and it's still free, making it paid doesn't change a fucking thing about the parking experience dude, your parking spot at Soli is the exact same it was 2 years ago, but now you have to fork over 10 bucks to park there, the only thing that's different is your wallet getting lighter. Parking is still full on weekends and powder days, it hasn't put a dent in the traffic issues in BCC, the only difference is skiers are paying more and Soli was able to up their margins a couple of points. So yeah, if it's not going to change a fucking thing, might as well keep parking free is my point.

On the second issue, I didn't say limit cars to the number of parking spots at the resorts, but the entire parking capacity in the canyon, they can count all the trailhead lots, idc. That way you could also limit parking on the side of the road udot has been complaining about. But forget about it, my point wasn't that this is the silver bullet idea, just that there are simpler, cheaper options to explore before going the gondola route, because on top of being incredibly expensive, a gondola would do absolutely nothing to limit traffic, it will only funnel more people up once lots are full, but I guarantee you 1000% that on those big days they're trying to solve for, lots will still be full, and traffic will still be a fucking mess, but we'll be collectively half a billion poorer, just a dumb idea.

If anything the solitude parking situation is more chaotic now with everyone parking on the shoulder. People always unloading their crap onto the road, making u-turns to get back down the canyon, getting stuck in the snowbank, place is a real mess.

byuboundIf anything the solitude parking situation is more chaotic now with everyone parking on the shoulder. People always unloading their crap onto the road, making u-turns to get back down the canyon, getting stuck in the snowbank, place is a real mess.

The road was already full of cars in the past, this isn't new/because of paid parking. If the lot is still full then the lot is still full, cant really do much about that.

Monsieur_PatateWhat are you talking about, how is free parking making is a shit show? Parking is fine at Brighton/Alta and it's still free, making it paid doesn't change a fucking thing about the parking experience dude, your parking spot at Soli is the exact same it was 2 years ago, but now you have to fork over 10 bucks to park there, the only thing that's different is your wallet getting lighter. Parking is still full on weekends and powder days, it hasn't put a dent in the traffic issues in BCC, the only difference is skiers are paying more and Soli was able to up their margins a couple of points. So yeah, if it's not going to change a fucking thing, might as well keep parking free is my point.

On the second issue, I didn't say limit cars to the number of parking spots at the resorts, but the entire parking capacity in the canyon, they can count all the trailhead lots, idc. That way you could also limit parking on the side of the road udot has been complaining about. But forget about it, my point wasn't that this is the silver bullet idea, just that there are simpler, cheaper options to explore before going the gondola route, because on top of being incredibly expensive, a gondola would do absolutely nothing to limit traffic, it will only funnel more people up once lots are full, but I guarantee you 1000% that on those big days they're trying to solve for, lots will still be full, and traffic will still be a fucking mess, but we'll be collectively half a billion poorer, just a dumb idea.

But if you go to the mountain with 4 people, then you're paying $5 each time split 4 ways, thats not that much money. We might as well toss out last year, nobody wanted to even ride in a car with someone else, that could be different this year. Also, if only 1 of 4 resorts does it, the least popular at that, it might not make a difference at first.

Either way, parking will cost money at all major resorts if skiing continues to be this popular and there will always be traffic until something significant is done.

I don't mean to come off as a villain here, I would be mad too if I were in a situation where i wanted to ski alta every weekend, but the truth its not much is gonna change in the short term, I'm not jealous of people who ski the cottonwoods, I blame the ikon pass mostly but obviously skiing is just becoming more popular and SLC is growing at an insane pace.

eheathThe road was already full of cars in the past, this isn't new/because of paid parking. If the lot is still full then the lot is still full, cant really do much about that.

True, but now the road is a mess even if the soli lot isn't full. Used to be overflow, now it's the default.

byuboundDoes it though? Solitude has had paid parking the last 2 years and now they just fill the road before the lots, and the lots are still full on busy days. I haven't seen any evidence that there are less cars in bcc because of the paid parking.


Man I hate ski resorts so much

i def take the bus more often when i go to solitude, don't do it always but i'm like "fuck i gotta pay, maybe i'll just take the bus" vs at brighton i just drive on up like its nbd

Can't believe im with eheath on this one.

OP just buy epic's stock and roll in the dough. If you can't beat them, join em. It's up like 50% in the last year.

**This post was edited on Oct 11th 2021 at 7:51:45pm