Ski judging

Murphy802Thanks for more color on the judging process this year. Just curious, how was the Knuckle Huck event judged? Even die-hard EDollo fans can admit that Jesper had the edge over him...

Anyways, long live goodenoughBGK

nellyyySkiing needs you back in the judges' booth, Pete. You always kept it really legit and were super accessible and honest with the athletes.

And as a few people suggested, fan voting doesn’t work, just ask PK about that.

AUSTINBIKESKIAny young guns curious about what this is referring to: one year X games did fan voting. PK hunder did some NASTY dub 12 mutes (back when nobody was doing them), but Dumont won with a double front flip because it was a crowd pleaser

hemlockjibber8Seems to me that the biggest issue with the big air format is that it is two combined scores. I’d prefer best trick wins. Big airs aren’t about consistency, unless it’s an elimination format. They are about doing the best trick.

p.arnesonSo without being in that judging booth, I can’t necessarily give you a definitive answer. Knuckle huck as a contest has a pretty loose format for the skiing, as well as the judging. The skiers can do whatever they think would be cool, using everything but the big air jump itself, essentially haha. The judging is just an overall of each skiers body of work. So looking at the results, henrik not only landed ever single trick he tried, he mixed up nose to tail butter, and also utilized the knuckle itself. Overall impression could be based on consistency of landed tricks, as well as the variety he showed. Jesper for sure did the most holy shit, what the fuck just happened tricks, but his overall body of work that night didn’t win in overall impression to the judges.

again I wasn’t on that panel, that’s just my perspective

goodenough bgk for lyfe :)

CENTOREThis perspective is awesome to hear and also the perfect counterpoint to the rabid fans perspective which is very important.

OP i'd be very curious to hear you breakdown the knucklehuck a little bit.

Personally I was watching with family who are not at all into the freestyle ski scene. All 5 of us were blown away by Jesper (and also Fabian Boesch who I don't think enough people have been talking about post event but I digress). Obviously a fan vote isn't a good solution, but it's certainly interesting when there seems to be a large majority across the board who all watched the event and disagree with certain results.
I'm not saying Henrik wasn't impressive in the knucklehuck, and I also think that his questionable move of not competing in slopestyle colored a lot of people's opinions this past weekend.

p.arnesonMaybe from my point of view the way that Ahall used the course and the knuckle was the most creative and innovative way. Nothing like what the other guys were doing, one foot Tokyo drifts, transfer “almost” tail tap late 3. And that’s the hardest part about judging a contest like that. If they had decided going into it that use of the knuckle itself, over airing over the knuckle was more important, than you can understand their decision. If they wanted to see big over the knuckle tricks, they may have gone the other way.
progression is viewed in a lot of different ways, some could argue doing switch double backflips, without grabs, front flip to barani would almost be a regression to the sport, regardless of how gnarly and huge it was.
with such an open format, there’s a huge margin for what’s the right way to do it.

p.arnesonI generally feel the same way.
the counter argument to that is that when you start compare single tricks, it becomes even more subjective. Everyone is so good, with such a variety of tricks, for example it is very hard to justify why a perfectly done switch dub 18 Buick is or isn’t better than a switch dub bio 18. If you break it down by criteria most of them can go either way, depending on if you think the axis, or the grab is more important in the progression of the sport. And again, in about 10 seconds.
with the 2nd trick you at least have something to differentiate the score, or add a slightly bigger sample size to the equation.

hemlockjibber8I completely agree that it makes it easier to judge but it’s not the right solution imo. When I judged FWQ and Jr comps, you would sometimes be praying that one of the top two guys would have a crash at the end of their second run just to make the judging easier and make the placement easier to justify. And that was with a very, very structured scoring system that we could break down and explain to people. And in an event that you could really argue the most consistent is the best.

It sounds like they need to value uniqueness higher, as it is a foundation of this sport. They probably need to give a little more time to judge too, since that complaint is a recurring theme. Judging is tough.

p.arnesonMy take personally has always been it’s big air, not slope, it should be 1 trick. I was explaining the reasoning why the format is 2, and that was decided by the competitors, coaches and events.

if it’s a one trick comp, rank these tricks:
sw trip 14 octo to octo
sw trip 14 pre nose
sw dub 18 buick
sw dub bio 18 safety
trip 16 safety, set 18 stop to 16
sw dub 18 lead tail
trip 19 mute
dub 16 nose
trip 16 nose mute

p.arnesonMy take personally has always been it’s big air, not slope, it should be 1 trick. I was explaining the reasoning why the format is 2, and that was decided by the competitors, coaches and events.

if it’s a one trick comp, rank these tricks:
sw trip 14 octo to octo
sw trip 14 pre nose
sw dub 18 buick
sw dub bio 18 safety
trip 16 safety, set 18 stop to 16
sw dub 18 lead tail
trip 19 mute
dub 16 nose
trip 16 nose mute

PeteMahnPersonally ranking tricks is bullshit. Execution is the most important part of the trick. How did the landing look, were their arms all over the place, how was there composure on takeoff, in the air and when they landed. You can do really difficult tech tricks but the deciding factor should be based on execution when comparing tricks.

p.arnesonExecution is definitely important, hence why it is part of the criteria, but should it outweigh all the rest of the criteria?
For example, in 2013 should Kai mahler’s perfectly executed (IMO) switch double misty 14 mute have scored higher than henrik’s nose butter triple with the slight bobble in the landing?

PeteMahnThis is a perfect example as you're comparing two tricks that were performed not just saying compare these tricks. In order to compare tricks you need examples and not just a list like the one you posted above. There's a big difference between tricks o paper and them being executed/landed, then it's much easier to compared them to each other.

p.arnesonOpen letter to freeskiing: judging



There have been a lot of questions and comments regarding the judging in aspen, especially after the results of big air and knuckle huck.



I’ll start by at least giving you my credentials so you don’t think I’m completely full of shit. I’ve judged XGAMES 8 times, 6 in Aspen, and 2 Euro X, as well as dozens of FIS events. I stopped judging in 2018 and started announcing dew tour as well as live venue announcing at x games.



Thought I’d maybe share some perspective that a lot of people don’t necessarily know or think about from the judges booth.



A lot of the questions have come after the results of big air, and why people ending up being ranked where they were. We’ll start with the scoring system. This year there were 3 scoring judges, normally 5 and a head judge. The judges score on a scale from 0-15, all 3 judges scores are added up, plus 5 points to get a score out of 50. The scores are only used as a tool to find a ranking, so they don’t necessarily matter, as long as the ranking is correct. That being said, when you have a contest with more that 15 tricks, but only 15 points to give, they’re already working with a flawed system. The judges use criteria to find the ranking, execution, variety, combinations, amplitude and progression, which then is used to get an “overall impression” of what is done. They use that criteria to decide which trick is ranked where. Now consider that scoring system, and that criteria, and you have to do all of that it at the most, 10 seconds during big air, while remembering what other tricks have already been done and comparing them. Buy air is also a 2 jump format at x, where each skier has their 2 best, different tricks scored. ABM for example did one of the best single tricks of the contest with the switch triple 14, lead octo to trailing octo, which received one of the highest scores given out. But his other trick, dub bio 10 breeby, wasn’t enough to compare to ahall’s two tricks (switch dub 18 Buick and dub 16 nose) right above him.



Now if you take that into consideration with the other events, whether we’re taking about pipe or slope, you use the same system to figure out who should be ranked where. The reason this system is used instead of one like figure skating, or aerials, where there is a value based on a trick, is to keep the freeskiing element alive. We all know that the way Torin does a dub 12 mute in the pipe is different than the way a basic dub 12 mute is done, but if you have a value based system, they would be on the same scale.



I don’t want to get in the mud about who I think should have been ranked where, and what skier’s style should be considered better than another’s, mainly because as a judge, you have to remove all of your ski bias to be a fair and subjective as possible. That can be the hardest part of deciding who should come out on top. With that being said your favorite skier may not end up winning, even if you think they did the dopest shit ever.



I’m not here to make excuses for the judges, or even validate their decisions, just to give a little insight on what it’s actually like. And that being said, freeskiing need different opinions, different styles, different tricks, and everyone can relate to whatever they want to. I can tell you though that the guys and girls that are in those judging booths are some of the most passionate, and obsessed with skiing people around.



The system was created to have a “panel of your peers”, and the judges have and will continue to have an open line of communication with the athletes. The goal is to get the results that the general consensus of the athletes with agree with, and they’re 100% encouraged to share their opinion with the judges and have discussions with that on what they want to see happen in these events.



Im not saying it’s a perfect system by any means, and it is beyond difficult to think that 3-5 peoples opinions decide who wins these contests. And as a few people suggested, fan voting doesn’t work, just ask PK about that.



If you want to have a voice in skiing, or you think you could help the sport go in the “right” direction or do a better job, get up from behind you keyboard or your Instagram comments and sign up for a judging clinic. Skiing needs as many voices as possible to keep it free.

p.arnesonThe list of tricks above are all tricks from big air, which with the internet I’m sure you’re fully capable if watching each one to compare. And yes, to find where a trick in a contest is ranked you compare one to another using the criteria, which includes how well or not well it’s executed.



You also didn’t answer my question about those two tricks in 2013

**This post was edited on Feb 6th 2021 at 2:26:35pm

p.arnesonMy take personally has always been it’s big air, not slope, it should be 1 trick. I was explaining the reasoning why the format is 2, and that was decided by the competitors, coaches and events.

if it’s a one trick comp, rank these tricks:
sw trip 14 octo to octo
sw trip 14 pre nose
sw dub 18 buick
sw dub bio 18 safety
trip 16 safety, set 18 stop to 16
sw dub 18 lead tail
trip 19 mute
dub 16 nose
trip 16 nose mute

PeteMahnThe list doesn't mean shit, the tricks need to be done in the same comp to be compared to each other. With all the variables including the weather, wind factor, the jump, the in run, you can't compare different tricks done in different comps to each other. As far as the example with Henrik and Khai the higher soring trick is the nose butter triple. Due to the execution of the triple I would score it lower based on the landing if it was a normal triple; so I would give Khai a higher score. Since he nosebuttered on the takeoff then it would be scored higher.
This is how I judge a trick with these 5 categories, Style/Execution, Creativity, Originality, Technicality, and risk/amplitude. At that time no one was doing nosebutter's especially on jumps and in comps so that's both going to score higher with creativity and originality it's also technical as sending a nose butter at that speed and on that large of a feature is really gnarly. Lastly he went huge so that's going to score higher in a risk/going big category, though the execution wasn't perfect it would still core higher than Khai. That being said I will only compare trick done in the same comp as I think that's how it should be done as there are so many variables.