Fat skis bad knees

BeefSupremeHi all,

I'm looking to (finally) upgrade from my beloved 2004 Volkl v-pros, and I'm hoping to get something a little wider and more up to date. I had my eye on the Black Crows Atris in 184, but they're 108mm wide and I recently heard that wide skis can be pretty hard on your knees if you're not in super deep powder. Does anybody know if this is the case? I've had 3 ACL surgeries in the last 10 or so years, so I'm a little wary about messing up my knees again. Ideally I'd like to just have one ski for inbounds and backcountry/sidecountry stuff, so a ski I can only use in powder doesn't really seem like what I'm after right now.

Any other suggestions would be appreciated, as I'm obviously way out of the loop on new gear these days. I'm 6'0" and around 200. Not a super aggressive skier, but I used to be able to handle pretty much anything inbounds before my legs exploded. I'll be mostly skiing in New Mexico and maybe Colorado for the foreseeable future.

Thanks!

108 isn’t a powder ski except by east coast standards. Atris rips on groomers. I have a bad knee and regularly ski 105-120 wide skis. Wider skis tend to be heavier and therefore provide more “suspension.” Ive found with narrow skis my legs receive a lot more feedback from the snow underneath me which hurts my knee more than skiing a wider ski.

I’d say the only thing I notice is with wide skis you need to angulate more to really get it on edge. My knees hurt more when I didn’t have footbeds because my arch was collapsing when I was driving the turn. Now with a better fit, they’re fine. My dad has had knee issues and a knee replacement. He skis some 108 underfoot skis with a bamboo core and he’s fine.

I agree with Animator and Brad and think you should look at the Atomic Bent Chetler 100 in a 188 length with a shift binding as a do it all in one ski resort and backcountry.

animator108 isn’t a powder ski except by east coast standards. Atris rips on groomers. I have a bad knee and regularly ski 105-120 wide skis. Wider skis tend to be heavier and therefore provide more “suspension.” Ive found with narrow skis my legs receive a lot more feedback from the snow underneath me which hurts my knee more than skiing a wider ski.

Thanks man, really appreciate the feedback! Thinking I might pull the trigger on the Atris (other option was a pricier Camox pair) and see how it goes.

I'll just hold onto the volkls on the off-chance I ever make it back east. They'd probably only get me like $50, and I love them too much to sell anyway.

I'd recommend going to a shop that lets you demo the latest stuff and find something that works. I can ski 100-106's around just fine without pow, but anything more than that will tear up my knees at the end of the day, they are pretty torn up to begin with.

As Slopestyle in Breck by me is a shop I know does that, but I'm sure there are others out there. That way you'll be confident you're dropping coin on the right skis.

Fat skis are terrible for your knees if you're not in deep snow. A wider ski creates more torque on your knees. It's physics.


https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/985720/National-Academy-2019--Wide-Ski-Research-----Indoor-Lecture

**This post was edited on Dec 23rd 2020 at 12:03:58pm

This is actually a pretty interesting question/debate. Firstly there is not really much question that a wide ski does increase impact on landings, and it's more noticeable on hard snow. Name drop, but I was chatting to Henrik about this in Saas-Fee in the summer, and he was saying he really feels the difference (which is why he's currently skiing the ARV 86 in the park a lot). The impact from wider skis basically means your knees are absorbing more force, so they ache and get tired quicker. In soft snow you don't notice so much, for obvious reasons.

Injury risk is a different thing, aside from the fatigue factor I suppose. But I've been discussing this a lot in light of having recently got broke off and essentially you get hurt when the force the ski exacts on your body, is greater than the force required to break the body part in question (in this case, the ACL). What I've been told by the docs/physios is that obviously, all other things being equal, when the binding doesn't release, a longer ski is a longer lever, and therefore delivers more force to the body, mostly the knee. A wider ski can increase that too depending on fall angles etc but generally much more marginally. Flex and profile can also be a factor depending on the crash. The anecdotal evidence is that people in general, are skiing longer, wider skis (and at higher dins) and that does seem to be causing more injuries.

My guess is the best way to avoid injury is to feel comfortable on your gear in the conditions so you are skiing confidently. My instinct is that the ski is unlikely to be a primary factor in any injury, since you've already fallen and your binding hasn't released before this becomes an issue. However, there may be cases where given that those factors are already in play, the ski may determine whether you make a lucky escape or not. I'd be really stoked to see a study of how people are mostly injuring their knees and what they are riding and see what picture that paints though.

LaPrade[Orthopedic Surgeon at Vail] says he's seeing more patients with soreness and even torn knee ligaments as a result of using fat skis on hard-packed snow.

"On powder days, we don't see any injuries," he said. "It's usually four or five days without snow, when it gets icier. I don't see people changing over (to skinnier skis). Most people are skiing with powder-type skis. Once the snow gets packed down, then we see torn ACLs."

https://gazette.com/life/skis-and-knees-somethings-got-to-give/article_3c0eff91-ab39-5a44-981c-fb2485a5dbc4.html

**This post was edited on Dec 23rd 2020 at 11:46:16am

TwigThis is actually a pretty interesting question/debate. Firstly there is not really much question that a wide ski does increase impact on landings, and it's more noticeable on hard snow. Name drop, but I was chatting to Henrik about this in Saas-Fee in the summer, and he was saying he really feels the difference (which is why he's currently skiing the ARV 86 in the park a lot). The impact from wider skis basically means your knees are absorbing more force, so they ache and get tired quicker. In soft snow you don't notice so much, for obvious reasons.

This makes zero sense. By this logic a skinny ski should float better in deep snow. The larger surface area should disperse the weight or impact over a larger area and therefore decrease the force.

There's two ways fat skis can be bad for your knees. One is contributing to an ACL or MCL tear in a traumatic injury. The other is degenerative and cumulative, leading to arthritis when you put more stress on your joints than they're designed to handle. With three prior ACL tears, your knees are already somewhat screwed to start with.

Have you ever jumped in a pool? Have you ever jumped in a pool on a pool noodle? Have you ever jumped in a pool on a tube or a boogie board?
The same resistance that keeps you up in powder is the same resistance that wrecks your knees on hardpack.
Youre talking about surface area dissipating energy but ignoring surface area increasing resistance

mystery3This makes zero sense. By this logic a skinny ski should float better in deep snow. The larger surface area should disperse the weight or impact over a larger area and therefore decrease the force.

BradFiAusNzCoCaHave you ever jumped in a pool? Have you ever jumped in a pool on a pool noodle? Have you ever jumped in a pool on a tube or a boogie board?
The same resistance that keeps you up in powder is the same resistance that wrecks your knees on hardpack.
Youre talking about surface area dissipating energy but ignoring surface area increasing resistance

Tightly packed snow and ice do not have surface tension like water does.

Have you ever jumped anything on ski blades?

broken_skier0Fat skis are terrible for your knees if you're not in deep snow. A wider ski creates more torque on your knees. It's physics.


https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/985720/National-Academy-2019--Wide-Ski-Research-----Indoor-Lecture

**This post was edited on Dec 23rd 2020 at 12:03:58pm

This is just PSIA poodle propaganda. If they had their way people would only ski RTMs and Brahmas.

Gnar_Shralp406This is just PSIA poodle propaganda. If they had their way people would only ski RTMs and Brahmas.

PSIA is a serious propaganda machine. I hear they operate ski schools all over the country where they brainwash kids into thinking the correct way to ski is forward rather than fakie.

How's about this.

Skiing is just bad for your knees. Period. I really think the 'wider ski hurts knees more' may have some validity because torque is torque but I'd assume a vast majority of knee injuries are from eating shit, not putting the ski on edge. It provably doesn't matter.

Also, a wide soft ski is 10x easier to ski and noodle around on than some stiff, narrow frontside carver. The stiff narrow skis make my bad knee cry like a mf after a day of skiing.

Here's another study.

The use of wider skis or, in particular, skis with a large waist width, on a hard or frozen surface, could unfavourably bring the knee joint closer to the end of range of motion in transversal and frontal planes as well as may potentially increase the risk of degenerative knee injuries.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4541126/

BeefSupremeHi all,

I'm looking to (finally) upgrade from my beloved 2004 Volkl v-pros, and I'm hoping to get something a little wider and more up to date. I had my eye on the Black Crows Atris in 184, but they're 108mm wide and I recently heard that wide skis can be pretty hard on your knees if you're not in super deep powder. Does anybody know if this is the case? I've had 3 ACL surgeries in the last 10 or so years, so I'm a little wary about messing up my knees again. Ideally I'd like to just have one ski for inbounds and backcountry/sidecountry stuff, so a ski I can only use in powder doesn't really seem like what I'm after right now.

Any other suggestions would be appreciated, as I'm obviously way out of the loop on new gear these days. I'm 6'0" and around 200. Not a super aggressive skier, but I used to be able to handle pretty much anything inbounds before my legs exploded. I'll be mostly skiing in New Mexico and maybe Colorado for the foreseeable future.

Thanks!

Update: made the decision to limit it to100mm, and I've preliminarily narrowed it down to the black crows camox (97), 4frnt msp 99, or liberty origin 96. From my limited research they all seem pretty nice, and I do kind of like the idea of buying indie, but thought I'd see if anybody here had any good or bad experiences with any of them.

**This post was edited on Dec 28th 2020 at 2:41:03pm

BeefSupremeUpdate: made the decision to limit it to100mm, and I've preliminarily narrowed it down to the black crows camox (97), 4frnt msp 99, or liberty origin 96. From my limited research they all seem pretty nice, and I do kind of like the idea of buying indie, but thought I'd see if anybody here had any good or bad experiences with any of them.

**This post was edited on Dec 28th 2020 at 2:41:03pm

Black crows is not an indie brand. The camox is however a great ski, very versatile and way more stable at high speed than it has any business being. The origin is also super fun but not quite as stable. No experience with the MSP so I cannot speak to that, but I bought a Camox for my dad a few years ago (6’1 and 250lbs) and he fucking loves it. I skied it and liked it so much I got myself a pair.