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Vail blacklists all employee passes for the weekend

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chimpansteeze
Posts: 100 - Karma: 482
https://www.vaildaily.com/news/employee-passes-restricted-at-vail-this-weekend-reservations-full-uphill-access-closed/

Another feather in the cap of the sadness machine that is Vail Resorts. While we all probably thought something like this would go down seeing it actually happening is concerning. Not only does it set a precedent for other ski areas to follow suit, as they so often do with other vail policies, it sets us down a dangerous road to further restrictions. Oh you didn't book any nights at one of the company owned hotels? Sorry you cant ski this weekend. No private lesson booked? You cant ski on a powder day before noon. NOW trust me I know the probability of any of this happening in this season or any other is extremely low, but the path is clear and you can bet something along these lines have been discussed in boardroom meetings across the country.

Also not calling them out necessarily but in the article they say employee passes have been restricted in the past, I've lived in CO for almost 10 years and cant remember hearing about it before, anyone out there have any insight?
Dec 13 2020 9:12AM
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deathcookie
Posts: 1800 - Karma: 1,196
eheathSo what you think every resort has the same contract? Nah dude, it says in your paperwork when you work for vail that skiing is a privilege. You don't get to decide when its part of your wage, the resort does and I can almost guarantee any resort that has a competent business plan does not include it as a wage.


You know, companies can also lower your pay, but they don't do that because it's scummy, not because it's illegal. They just need to inform you of the change before they do it. If you don't like the pay change, you quit.

The employee pass isn't part of your wage, it's part of your employee compensation. If you don't like how they changed the dates, you can quit.

If you're given paid time off, would you consider it to be a privilege, or part of your compensation? Your employer has the right to take away your paid time off "privalege," just like Vail is taking away ski days from its employees. Nevertheless, companies don't typically do that because it decreases employee satisfaction.

**This post was edited on Dec 14th 2020 at 12:42:19pm
Dec 14 2020 12:29PM
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jakeordie
Posts: 664 - Karma: 3,276
eheathPCMR used to hand out ski passes like candy to park skiers and industry folk, most people I knew got a free PC pass until Vail came in. That being said, Vail is running a business and there model works very, very well, you can't really expect much change from Vail as they are absolutely stuffing their pockets every second of every day.

https://goo.gl/maps/PjsHWVk18BdZWAJT6
Dec 14 2020 12:32PM
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eheath
Posts: 61601 - Karma: 123,027
jakeordiehttps://goo.gl/maps/PjsHWVk18BdZWAJT6


LOL bro i dont ski park anymore
Dec 14 2020 12:44PM
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eheath
Posts: 61601 - Karma: 123,027
Craw_DaddyYou do know that a wage is the fixed monetary part of your compensation right? You saying that a pass is not part of a wage is like saying an apple is not an orange. like yeah, we know...

**This post was edited on Dec 14th 2020 at 12:28:59pm


This doesn't really support your argument dude, you're further proving that skiing is a privilege.
Dec 14 2020 12:48PM
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Granby_killdozer
Posts: 2380 - Karma: -11,976
eheathThis doesn't really support your argument dude, you're further proving that skiing is a privilege.


Dude, I'm arguing that it should not be considered a privilege since there is an understanding that you get to ski for free when you work at a ski resort and the basis of your entire argument is "WeLl It IS a PrIvIlEGe sO wHaT cAn wE dO? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯". You sound like some rich oil baron at the turn of the 20th century. Having money so you didn't starve to death when you got old used to be considered a privilege too until FDR became president. Vail is abusing an unspoken rule of the ski industry for monetary gain and its bullshit. And more generally speaking employers shouldn't be allowed to offer benefits that they can take away proactively without signing another contract with the employee. If Vail wants to have blackout dates that's fine but they should have put it in writing before seasonal employees started working for them.

**This post was edited on Dec 14th 2020 at 1:14:32pm
Dec 14 2020 1:12PM
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eheath
Posts: 61601 - Karma: 123,027
Craw_DaddyVail is abusing an unspoken rule of the ski industry for monetary gain and its bullshit.


And what unspoken rule is that dude? Don't blackout employee passes on holidays?

Look, I'll level with you, I don't like it either but Vail isn't going to change, sorry dude.
Dec 14 2020 1:14PM
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eheath
Posts: 61601 - Karma: 123,027
Craw_DaddyDude, If Vail wants to have blackout dates that's fine but they should have put it in writing before seasonal employees started working for them.


Also, it 100% says in their contract they can blackout days at any time, which again i know you think is wrong, but its a standard dude.
Dec 14 2020 1:15PM
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Granby_killdozer
Posts: 2380 - Karma: -11,976
eheathAnd what unspoken rule is that dude? Don't blackout employee passes on holidays?

Look, I'll level with you, I don't like it either but Vail isn't going to change, sorry dude.


The unspoken rule is that you get to ski when you work at a ski resort. That's why people put up with shitty traffic and rude customers.

And I'm aware that they're not going to change from us arguing on Newschoolers. I'm just saying its bullshit and I'm ideologically opposed to employers being allowed to pull stunts like this
Dec 14 2020 1:19PM
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Ryanvdonk
Posts: 12811 - Karma: 1,971
deathcookieYou know, companies can also lower your pay, but they don't do that because it's scummy, not because it's illegal. They just need to inform you of the change before they do it. If you don't like the pay change, you quit.

The employee pass isn't part of your wage, it's part of your employee compensation. If you don't like how they changed the dates, you can quit.

If you're given paid time off, would you consider it to be a privilege, or part of your compensation? Your employer has the right to take away your paid time off "privalege," just like Vail is taking away ski days from its employees. Nevertheless, companies don't typically do that because it decreases employee satisfaction.

**This post was edited on Dec 14th 2020 at 12:42:19pm


PTO is different, a lot of states have labor laws requiring compensation based on hours worked, even in part time or seasonal positions. so that cannot be taken away. you can be limited in how much you can use during a pay period or work week, but the PTO is actually protected by law.
Dec 14 2020 1:27PM
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deathcookie
Posts: 1800 - Karma: 1,196
RyanvdonkPTO is different, a lot of states have labor laws requiring compensation based on hours worked, even in part time or seasonal positions. so that cannot be taken away. you can be limited in how much you can use during a pay period or work week, but the PTO is actually protected by law.

There are a ton of states that don't have any legal PTO requirements. The only thing that is required is that companies provide you with, or pay you for, PTO that you have already earned. They can take away PTO benefits that you may earn in the future.

Also, even if there are legal PTO requirements, companies can change what they offer as long as they stay above the legal minimum. Companies can also create "blackout" days for PTO. For example, at my job I can't take off certain holidays, just like Vail employees can't ski during certain dates.

More ski area employees (especially the more skilled ones) need to unionize and stop being taken advantage of. Ski area workers shouldn't buy into the "it's a privilege" type of bullshit.
Dec 14 2020 2:25PM
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eheath
Posts: 61601 - Karma: 123,027
deathcookieMore ski area employees (especially the more skilled ones) need to unionize and stop being taken advantage of. Ski area workers shouldn't buy into the "it's a privilege" type of bullshit.

L O fuckin L brother.

Its pretty funny that everyone thinks that Vail employees hate working for them, because their college buddy was a lift ops at keystone. Most people who work for Vail like their jobs, make a good wage, get tons of benefits (including skiing) and they aren't that mad they couldn't ski an early season weekend because we have below average snow and a fucking pandemic.
Dec 14 2020 2:29PM
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Yung_Gnarley
Posts: 9092 - Karma: 3,022
What kind of gaper-ass transplant employees are sad about not skiing on an early season weekend in summit county? The lift lines are a shit show. Just ski the other 5 days yo
Dec 14 2020 2:38PM
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deathcookie
Posts: 1800 - Karma: 1,196
eheathL O fuckin L brother.

Its pretty funny that everyone thinks that Vail employees hate working for them, because their college buddy was a lift ops at keystone. Most people who work for Vail like their jobs, make a good wage, get tons of benefits (including skiing) and they aren't that mad they couldn't ski an early season weekend because we have below average snow and a fucking pandemic.

They might not hate working for them, but many mountain employees could be a lot better off if they organized. Skilled employees like ski patrollers, instructors, and groomers might earn more than the minimum, but they aren't getting paid a living wage.

People end up getting trapped in those jobs, and after a long time, the fun aspect of skiing disappears.

It's true that the missed skiing days don't really matter much to most people. Nevertheless, they represent a big employer taking advantage of its employees. Sometimes small aggressions can lead to big change. For example, in Chile last year, the thing that sparked the massive protests was a $0.04 increase on the price of subway tickets.
Dec 14 2020 2:44PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51621 - Karma: 162,058
Yung_GnarleyWhat kind of gaper-ass transplant employees are sad about not skiing on an early season weekend in summit county? The lift lines are a shit show. Just ski the other 5 days yo


Meh. Sometimes your days off are your days off. Sometimes a weekend afternoon isn't busy. Sometimes the mtn isnt that bad. If you live right next to the place and feel like getting an hour or two of turns that's way different then leaving denver at 6am to go ski all day. Sometimes the skatepark is crowded but i still skate becauee im there.

Inb4 you haven't even lived in the mountains that long. But either way a kinda of weird take.

I get it, even get what vr is doing, but if somebody lives in a ski town and works at a ski resort so they can ski, they might be bummed they cant ski. It's really not that crazy.
Dec 14 2020 2:46PM
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Yung_Gnarley
Posts: 9092 - Karma: 3,022
theabortionatorMeh. Sometimes your days off are your days off. Sometimes a weekend afternoon isn't busy. Sometimes the mtn isnt that bad. If you live right next to the place and feel like getting an hour or two of turns that's way different then leaving denver at 6am to go ski all day. Sometimes the skatepark is crowded but i still skate becauee im there.

Inb4 you haven't even lived in the mountains that long. But either way a kinda of weird take.

I get it, even get what vr is doing, but if somebody lives in a ski town and works at a ski resort so they can ski, they might be bummed they cant ski. It's really not that crazy.


Honestly, that's a really good point that I didn't think much about. Thank ya
Dec 14 2020 2:49PM
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Granby_killdozer
Posts: 2380 - Karma: -11,976
eheathL O fuckin L brother.

Its pretty funny that everyone thinks that Vail employees hate working for them, because their college buddy was a lift ops at keystone. Most people who work for Vail like their jobs, make a good wage, get tons of benefits (including skiing) and they aren't that mad they couldn't ski an early season weekend because we have below average snow and a fucking pandemic.


Dude, we're talking about seasonal employees, not the people working for corporate in Denver. How much are the lifties making and what benefits do they receive? how bout ski school, rental shops, food and bev, tech shop, sport shop, gift shop, area maintenance, ski patrol, snowmaking, or park crew? Have you ever actually worked in any of those departments? I have either worked in or personally know someone who works in every single one of those departments. Unless Vail does things radically different from the places I've worked, those people don't make very much money and the only benefit they receive is the ability to ski for free. I'd really love for a lifty working for vail to chime in on this conversation, maybe they'd even be cool with what is happening, but they certainly have every right to be pissed.
Dec 14 2020 2:55PM
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eheath
Posts: 61601 - Karma: 123,027
Craw_DaddyDude, we're talking about seasonal employees, not the people working for corporate in Denver. How much are the lifties making and what benefits do they receive? how bout ski school, rental shops, food and bev, tech shop, sport shop, gift shop, area maintenance, ski patrol, snowmaking, or park crew? Have you ever actually worked in any of those departments? I have either worked in or personally know someone who works in every single one of those departments. Unless Vail does things radically different from the places I've worked, those people don't make very much money and the only benefit they receive is the ability to ski for free. I'd really love for a lifty working for vail to chime in on this conversation, maybe they'd even be cool with what is happening, but they certainly have every right to be pissed.


You guys are all up in arms and you guys don't even know anyone who works for Vail. Vail employees know their passes can be turned off, like this wasn't some blind side attack on the employees.

I also don't really agree with you here, not everyone who works at a ski resort even skis dude, you're assuming that every employee that works in every position at the resort is itching to ski, most will likely use their pass but again, getting a ski pass is a privilege and I know you don't think that's true, but the majority of ski resorts treat a ski pass as a privilege and the employees are very aware.
Dec 14 2020 3:07PM
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deathcookie
Posts: 1800 - Karma: 1,196
Craw_DaddyDude, we're talking about seasonal employees, not the people working for corporate in Denver. How much are the lifties making and what benefits do they receive? how bout ski school, rental shops, food and bev, tech shop, sport shop, gift shop, area maintenance, ski patrol, snowmaking, or park crew? Have you ever actually worked in any of those departments? I have either worked in or personally know someone who works in every single one of those departments. Unless Vail does things radically different from the places I've worked, those people don't make very much money and the only benefit they receive is the ability to ski for free. I'd really love for a lifty working for vail to chime in on this conversation, maybe they'd even be cool with what is happening, but they certainly have every right to be pissed.

I was offered a job as a ski patroller at Park City in 2016 or 2017. I think the wage was $12 an hour to start, which is about what new employees at the SLC In-N-Out make. .
Dec 14 2020 3:09PM
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eheath
Posts: 61601 - Karma: 123,027
deathcookieI was offered a job as a ski patroller at Park City in 2016 or 2017. I think the wage was $12 an hour to start, which is about what new employees at the SLC In-N-Out make. .


To play devils advocate here, a ski pass really isn't worth that much, full epic is $1000 spread over 5 months isn't exactly the largest compensation increase, the difference is less than $2/hr. would you really say $14/hr is better for a seasonal job?
Dec 14 2020 3:12PM
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Skier-Jon
Posts: 310 - Karma: 7,514
This summer I was going to use my free bike haul pass at PCMR that employees normally get if they work the full winter but I was disappointed to find out that due to covid no bike haul passes were being handed out, even to active employees. I thought it was a little messed up that they didn't even send out an email to let us know, and I started to worry about employee access for the winter so I did some research and found this at the bottom of the "perks and benefits" page on Vail's employee website, where they describe the employee season passes and other benefits:

"These company policies are presented as a matter of summary information only. We reserve the right to modify, revoke, suspend, terminate or change any or all of the information contained on this site and any plans, guidelines or procedures, in whole or in part, at any time, with or without notice."

They can take away employee access whenever they want and they don't even have to tell us. I guess I'm just happy that employees can ski at all this winter, because tbh after I read that this summer I did not have high hopes.
Dec 14 2020 3:29PM
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deathcookie
Posts: 1800 - Karma: 1,196
eheathTo play devils advocate here, a ski pass really isn't worth that much, full epic is $1000 spread over 5 months isn't exactly the largest compensation increase, the difference is less than $2/hr. would you really say $14/hr is better for a seasonal job?


Of course $14 is better than $12, but it's still pretty weak. Ski patrollers need to be good skiers, and they also need medical and avalanche knowledge. Surely somebody throwing dynamite onto a mountain to cause an avalanche should be getting paid more than $12 or $14 an hour. Grooming, park building, and ski instructing are other jobs that you need at least some skill to do.

IMO, seasonal employees should be getting paid more due to the seasonal aspect as well. Most seasonal employees lose a few months of pay every year when they are shifting in between jobs.

French seasonal employees love protesting for better conditions and I think that that is admirable. Also, I bet that their pay and benefits are far better than what U.S. ski workers earn.







**This post was edited on Dec 14th 2020 at 3:32:40pm
Dec 14 2020 3:29PM
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eheath
Posts: 61601 - Karma: 123,027
Skier-JonThey can take away employee access whenever they want and they don't even have to tell us. I guess I'm just happy that employees can ski at all this winter, because tbh after I read that this summer I did not have high hopes.


I think people are unaware too that employees do not have to make reservations, actually a huge thing this year TBH.
Dec 14 2020 3:32PM
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bennwithtwons
Posts: 1359 - Karma: 10,817
you should let your resort know if you think the wages you receive are insufficient. there are only a couple possible outcomes anyway. either they will or will not increase your rate of pay and you with either decide to stay or not to stay. it is like getting turned down from that cutie at the bar. the worst that can happen is you get rejected. good luck!

one other note - have you skied in france? there are a ton of ski bums there too and i don't remember seeing the lifties driving expensive cars or eating at high-end restaurants. they're doing the same stuff that north american ski bums are doing - sacrificing higher pay and better living conditions so that they can pursue their passion. there are a finite number of really good resort jobs and as a result, most people are in it for the lifestyle if they continue to work seasonally year after year.
deathcookieOf course $14 is better than $12, but it's still pretty weak. Ski patrollers need to be good skiers, and they also need medical and avalanche knowledge. Surely somebody throwing dynamite onto a mountain to cause an avalanche should be getting paid more than $12 or $14 an hour. Grooming, park building, and ski instructing are other jobs that you need at least some skill to do.

IMO, seasonal employees should be getting paid more due to the seasonal aspect as well. Most seasonal employees lose a few months of pay every year when they are shifting in between jobs.

French seasonal employees love protesting for better conditions and I think that that is admirable. Also, I bet that their pay and benefits are far better than what U.S. ski workers earn.







**This post was edited on Dec 14th 2020 at 3:32:40pm
Dec 14 2020 3:39PM
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Skier-Jon
Posts: 310 - Karma: 7,514
eheathI think people are unaware too that employees do not have to make reservations, actually a huge thing this year TBH.


Yeah I had very low expectations for employee access this year and they really impressed me when they announced that. I was glad to be proven wrong. TBH I hate to be out here defending Vail but all the people complaining about employee access being restricted for one weekend early in the season were already bitching about Vail before this news came out and will keep bitching in the future. I worked full time at PC last year and I can tell you right now any employee who is actually a ski bum would not care about this because they already avoid skiing on weekends as much as possible. Even employees who only work a day or two a week for the free pass work on weekends because they would not provide enough value to the company to employ them if they worked just one midweek day. There are plenty of things that Vail does that upset me but this just aint it cuz.
Dec 14 2020 3:41PM
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bennwithtwons
Posts: 1359 - Karma: 10,817
this is a crucial point - if you work the most limited schedule possible it is still usually weeks + holidays. so you work when all the folks are vacationing anyway. then midweek you and the crew shred all day together. pretty ideal!
Skier-JonYeah I had very low expectations for employee access this year and they really impressed me when they announced that. I was glad to be proven wrong. TBH I hate to be out here defending Vail but all the people complaining about employee access being restricted for one weekend early in the season were already bitching about Vail before this news came out and will keep bitching in the future. I worked full time at PC last year and I can tell you right now any employee who is actually a ski bum would not care about this because they already avoid skiing on weekends as much as possible. Even employees who only work a day or two a week for the free pass work on weekends because they would not provide enough value to the company to employ them if they worked just one midweek day. There are plenty of things that Vail does that upset me but this just aint it cuz.
Dec 14 2020 3:44PM
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deathcookie
Posts: 1800 - Karma: 1,196
bennwithtwonsone other note - have you skied in france? there are a ton of ski bums there too and i don't remember seeing the lifties driving expensive cars or eating at high-end restaurants. they're doing the same stuff that north american ski bums are doing - sacrificing higher pay and better living conditions so that they can pursue their passion. there are a finite number of really good resort jobs and as a result, most people are in it for the lifestyle if they continue to work seasonally year after year.

I have skied in france. That's why images of ski area workers protesting and striking came to mind for me. I have traveled all over the place and seeing what workers do in other countries changed my views on collective bargaining.

I know that they aren't making very good money, but at least they are trying to improve their situation. There are a lot of Europeans that consider working at ski resorts more than just a job. It is their profession.
Dec 14 2020 3:47PM
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foolmetwice
Posts: 605 - Karma: 1,069
Sorta related question. I’m a snowmaker at a vail resort and informed them that I would only be working until end of december when I was hired and they told me that was alright and I could keep my pass. Unfortunately due to school and warm temps Ive probably only worked 60ish hrs. Would ideally like to quit as soon as Ive reached whatever threshold (if there is one) that is required of hours worked to keep your pass. Anyone know how many hours you need to work to keep your employee epic pass? Thanks
Dec 14 2020 6:51PM
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codizzle
Posts: 895 - Karma: 2,250
this is not unusual.

employees prolly busy working the weekends anyway.
Dec 14 2020 8:53PM
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PsychicMigration
Posts: 2099 - Karma: 10,540
Midweek is more fun anyhow and most of them probably have to work weekends anyhow. Still despicable that they even had to do that though.
Dec 14 2020 9:09PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51621 - Karma: 162,058
Vail: lets pay pur employees shitty even though we can't find enough people to work

Also vail:




Same shit different season.
Dec 16 2020 3:59PM
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