Another Level Podcast - Andy Parry and Will Wesson

Yeah that rant was right on. Great points.

Andy speaking the truth at the end there

Can you post a link OP?

**This post was edited on Oct 1st 2020 at 3:50:56pm

50KalCan you post a link OP?

**This post was edited on Oct 1st 2020 at 3:50:56pm

http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Another+Level+Podcast

PUBLICLY OWNED ROPE TOWS IN EVERY TOWN WITH SNOW

Park skiing bring accessibly to low and middle class people. Lowering the barrier to entry means more inclusion. We require less infrastructure, lower square footage, and more inexpensive equipment compared to most forms of skiing.

I REALLY want to get a new program started but I feel like my political clout is tapped. This needs to be a joint effort with a bunch of people, brands and resorts. Find existing programs and help guide them into the freeskiing.

Skiing as a whole has a problem with freeskiing, and specifically park skiing in the realm of what the consumer is actually doing. The Olympics was the nail in the coffin. That type of park skiing is the antithesis of inclusivity, and sustainability.

**This post was edited on Oct 1st 2020 at 8:32:22pm

50KalCan you post a link OP?

**This post was edited on Oct 1st 2020 at 3:50:56pm

https://level1productions.com/pages/another-level-podcast-series

WormracerThat type of park skiing is the antithesis of inclusivity, and sustainability.

**This post was edited on Oct 1st 2020 at 8:32:22pm

Comp skiing has gone as whack as racing and mogul skiing, but maybe that's the natural evolution of these things.

The Ruby Hill Rail Yard does seem like a great model for other snowy cities. Would be well received in Bozeman and Anchorage I think. I like your vision of accessible freeskiing, Andy, and applaud your efforts in stoking the masses.

I've much more familiar with the touring side of things and have been thinking about ways to get folks skiing sans lifts or lift tickets. There's used pin setups and tele gear out there. My dad learned to ski this way in the 80s and has been stoked for 40 years. Skinning groomers doesn't require any preexisting abilities, and you don't really need any avalanche gear for that (controversial, I know).

This winter I'm observing my very very stoked 28-year-old roommate from Tennessee who just bought a used Dynafit setup but has never stood on skis. Will report back with results.

Andy said some great stuff. #FUCKHOTPOCKETS

WormracerPark skiing bring accessibly to low and middle class people. Lowering the barrier to entry means more inclusion. We require less infrastructure, lower square footage, and more inexpensive equipment compared to most forms of skiing.

I REALLY want to get a new program started but I feel like my political clout is tapped. This needs to be a joint effort with a bunch of people, brands and resorts. Find existing programs and help guide them into the freeskiing.

Skiing as a whole has a problem with freeskiing, and specifically park skiing in the realm of what the consumer is actually doing. The Olympics was the nail in the coffin. That type of park skiing is the antithesis of inclusivity, and sustainability.

**This post was edited on Oct 1st 2020 at 8:32:22pm

686 & RMU are the only brands pushing for this movement. We need more!

pokerman686 & RMU are the only brands pushing for this movement. We need more!

lol really? Line/Full Tilt have sponsored LTC for 13 seasons dude, and vishnu has based their entire brand on accessible street skiing and makes affordable skis. RMUs are pretty expensive, so is outerwear from a name brand like 686. I think RMU and 686 are dope companies and I'm sure they would charge less if they could but saying they are the only brands pushing for the shit andy is talking about is a big stretch

**This post was edited on Oct 2nd 2020 at 10:34:23pm

My home resort Ski Roundtop and its sister resorts (Liberty and Whitetail) have always had night pass that worked everyday from 4pm to 10pm from January 2nd to the end of the season (mid march). It cost less than $200 if I not mistaken. Now Vail owns these resorts and is probably going to get rid of it. Just about every school in the are had buses that would take kids to the mountain once or twice a week and it make skiing extremely accessible for the middle class. If Vail actually cared at all about becoming more inclusive they would keep this pass, at least for these 3 resorts. These 3 mountains have Baltimore/D.C./Harrisburg/Philadelphia as large markets. Add JFBB and Hunter to the pass and it would have more pull from Philly and NYC for an affordable price.
Most people in my area started skiing because this pass made it pretty damn cheap (you could add on rentals for an additional fee) and accessible with help from schools. So far Vail has not announced if this pass will still be available this year, but I am doubting it. End rant

I grew up at 7 Springs. I love the place to death but due to its ownership the prices for everything have skyrocketed in the last 10 years. It's basically a 700 feet of vertical hill in western/central PA that ownership thinks is Pennsylvania Vail. A day pass is nearly $100, season pass is $700 (they might drop that this season, not sure), etc. to ride 285 skiable acres. You can't eat in the lodge without an arm and a leg, gotta take out a mortgage for beers, the list goes on.

That aside, the park scene was always incredible. Park crew is always building the greatest features, everything is so well maintained (especially for Pennsylvania), and everyone knows each other. The vibe is mellow and friendly, but at the same time positively competitive in a way that you want to progress your skiing. I made some of my closest friends there and having 7 Springs close by is how I became a skier, which has improved the quality of my life in immeasurable ways.

It's just an absolute shame that a place like this charges nearly $100 for a lift ticket. It's very difficult to justify going back to ski with the old crew when it is just so expensive. So - I've had this idea for a long time that if you set up a hill with even just a couple park lanes and a rope tow close by to where people are already used to going skiing, where young people can ride rails and hit jumps to their heart's content for cheap, eating hot dogs and burgers, drinking cheap light beers (for the 21 year olds... of course..), not only would you have a great success but you'd do something really positive for the sport.

Just think - few freeskiers are going to these tiny east coast mountains for downhill skiing. Of course that's a fun element, and I love to rip up our 11 total moguls as much as the next guy, but freeskiers go there for park features - staying in the parks all day hiking features, which is a fraction of the whole mountain. Can you isolate that for a fraction of the cost?

I always think "oh well it can't be that hard.." without thinking about the costs of snowmaking in PA, probably insurance, all that. But I still think someone could definitely do that and charge waaaay less than $100 a day. And what about in the west where you wouldn't need to make (as much) snow? $20 to lap the rope tow all day? You know how many more kids could afford to take up skiing? Count me in!

tldr; donate to the NS rope tow funfest extravaganza park, location TBD

c-friesI always think "oh well it can't be that hard.." without thinking about the costs of snowmaking in PA, probably insurance, all that. But I still think someone could definitely do that and charge waaaay less than $100 a day. And what about in the west where you wouldn't need to make (as much) snow? $20 to lap the rope tow all day? You know how many more kids could afford to take up skiing? Count me in!

tldr; donate to the NS rope tow funfest extravaganza park, location TBD

I think we just need to stop viewing ski hills as money-making businesses and treat them like public parks for winter recreation. Still charge for lift tickets, but make them affordable. Most of the costs of the mountain should be publicly funded. Ski hills benefit the businesses in their surrounding area so much, there are literally entire towns whose economy is based on the existence of a ski hill. So why are we putting so much pressure on hills to turn a profit? Wouldn't it make more sense to say "hey, this thing basically makes the whole economy run in the wintertime, lets use the tax revenue from those businesses that benefit from it to keep it going!" More skiers = more business for local establishments = more funding for the hill

another thing to make skiing more affordable in north america is to end the ski lodge being owned by the ski hill. In europe all of the lodges/restaurants on the mountain are owned by different companies so they have to compete with each other, so prices are lower and food is better. The north american model for ski hill dining is anti competition, that's why the hill can charge whatever they want for food cause at the end of the day exercising in the cold all day makes you hungry af. When I was in italy you could get grab and go charcuterie boards and caprese salads for cheaper prices than a shitty piece of pizza and a greasy burger at a typical US resort.

pinkcamo1000I think we just need to stop viewing ski hills as money-making businesses and treat them like public parks for winter recreation. Still charge for lift tickets, but make them affordable. Most of the costs of the mountain should be publicly funded. Ski hills benefit the businesses in their surrounding area so much, there are literally entire towns whose economy is based on the existence of a ski hill. So why are we putting so much pressure on hills to turn a profit? Wouldn't it make more sense to say "hey, this thing basically makes the whole economy run in the wintertime, lets use the tax revenue from those businesses that benefit from it to keep it going!" More skiers = more business for local establishments = more funding for the hill

another thing to make skiing more affordable in north america is to end the ski lodge being owned by the ski hill. In europe all of the lodges/restaurants on the mountain are owned by different companies so they have to compete with each other, so prices are lower and food is better. The north american model for ski hill dining is anti competition, that's why the hill can charge whatever they want for food cause at the end of the day exercising in the cold all day makes you hungry af. When I was in italy you could get grab and go charcuterie boards and caprese salads for cheaper prices than a shitty piece of pizza and a greasy burger at a typical US resort.

For sure - but I’m just thinking locally here. There is no way in a million years that the Pennsylvania government is going to allocate tax revenue to what they’d view as a glorified snow skate park. That may very well work (and does) in the true mountain areas, but unfortunately it wouldn’t work in a lot of places in the East where skiing (unfortunately) is not viewed as a critical part of regular life. That’s also the place where you want young kids to get into the sport that otherwise wouldn’t. Unfortunately we all know that there are serious ongoing expenses to operating a ski hill, no matter how small it is compared to the big guys. That’s a lot of ongoing tax funding for a reluctant government.

By “success” I wasn’t meaning that someone could set this up and get rich off of it or something like that. I mean that it has the potential to sustain itself and keep pumping life into the sport of free skiing. If you wanted to get rich off skiing you’d just set up another money grabbing Vail someplace.

This could absolutely 100% work as a nonprofit (like some of our greatest ski areas). Honestly that might be best - still charge for tickets, like you said, to cover costs, but ensure that all excess profit is pumped back into the operation. That way the skiers have the power to operate it as they’d wish, not the state.

**This post was edited on Oct 3rd 2020 at 11:45:01am

c-friesFor sure - but I’m just thinking locally here. There is no way in a million years that the Pennsylvania government is going to allocate tax revenue to what they’d view as a glorified snow skate park. That may very well work (and does) in the true mountain areas, but unfortunately it wouldn’t work in a lot of places in the East where skiing (unfortunately) is not viewed as a critical part of regular life. That’s also the place where you want young kids to get into the sport that otherwise wouldn’t. Unfortunately we all know that there are serious ongoing expenses to operating a ski hill, no matter how small it is compared to the big guys. That’s a lot of ongoing tax funding for a reluctant government.

**This post was edited on Oct 3rd 2020 at 11:45:01am

I don't think it's as far fetched as you think man, there are publicly owned ski hills in the east like Gunstock, Black Mountain of Maine, Camden Snow Bowl, and Marble Mountain in Newfoundland

pinkcamo1000I don't think it's as far fetched as you think man, there are publicly owned ski hills in the east like Gunstock, Black Mountain of Maine, Camden Snow Bowl, and Marble Mountain in Newfoundland

Yeah, various levels of government enhance these hills' budgets, because the jobs they provide and the ancillary industries (lodging, restaurants, gas, stations, bars, shops etc.) provide a net economic benefit in the region.

I like how they ripped on how the half pipe was access for the rich kids and how money is the main factor that people are turn down form skiing

Its crazy how directly the amount of money you have correlates to how good of a skier you are, at least with the younger kids that are on the come up rn in my generation. There was a kid that I used to ski with a bunch back in middle school who was pretty good, but not all that much better than the rest of us. He ended up having his parents pay for him to go to one of the ski academies at mt hood, which I've heard is basically as expensive as college tuition, and now hes actually becoming somewhat big in that scene(instagram clout, some sponsorships). That shit boggles my mind, because unless you are some sport defining prodigy, how would you ever earn that money that you spent to go to ski academy back through a career as a professional skier? Assuming you don't have a career ending injury, it seems unlikely that you would even make your money back, let alone make money on top of that.

It's fucked up but I see the next generation of ski pros being uber-rich fagan twin clones that don't have a humble bone in their bodies. Hopefully I'm wrong.

IdahoeIts crazy how directly the amount of money you have correlates to how good of a skier you are, at least with the younger kids that are on the come up rn in my generation. There was a kid that I used to ski with a bunch back in middle school who was pretty good, but not all that much better than the rest of us. He ended up having his parents pay for him to go to one of the ski academies at mt hood, which I've heard is basically as expensive as college tuition, and now hes actually becoming somewhat big in that scene(instagram clout, some sponsorships). That shit boggles my mind, because unless you are some sport defining prodigy, how would you ever earn that money that you spent to go to ski academy back through a career as a professional skier? Assuming you don't have a career ending injury, it seems unlikely that you would even make your money back, let alone make money on top of that.

It's fucked up but I see the next generation of ski pros being uber-rich fagan twin clones that don't have a humble bone in their bodies. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Absolutely no hate towards anyone who went to a ski academy (a lot of academies have scholarship programs or cheaper, less involved programs too, plus having money doesn't = spoiled), but you'd be surprised at how many pro and am skiers from the last 10 years went to ski academies, even ones who are considered "underground" that don't do competitions. Having access to olympic trampolines, water ramps, and air bags will do lots for someone's jump game.

**This post was edited on Oct 4th 2020 at 4:25:03pm

IdahoeIts crazy how directly the amount of money you have correlates to how good of a skier you are, at least with the younger kids that are on the come up rn in my generation.

Yeah, also it's just easier to accept risk when you have a big cushion of dollars to land in. Most of us can't and couldn't push the limits very hard because if we got even a simple injury it would stop us from working which wasn't an option. I live in Canada where an injury isn't a financial burden for the rest of your life. I'm sure this factor is significantly increased in the states where most people literally can't afford to go to the hospital. If your family has the money to put up for a recovery, you can risk breaking a leg, arm, wrist, whatever progressing on snow.

pinkcamo1000I don't think it's as far fetched as you think man, there are publicly owned ski hills in the east like Gunstock, Black Mountain of Maine, Camden Snow Bowl, and Marble Mountain in Newfoundland

Out West too. Bridger Bowl, Mt. Ashland, and Eaglecrest are nonprofits run by boards of directors. The Powder Alliance seems like a pretty cool deal.

A $20 ticket to lap the rope tows seems like a win-win. Curious how it works in other countries, there's so many small ski areas in Japan.

My biggest takeaway from researching this subject is that Rob Katz has the most punchable face in the ski industry.

**This post was edited on Oct 6th 2020 at 2:57:18pm

**This post was edited on Oct 6th 2020 at 2:58:04pm

They talked about finding out the cost of becoming or being a pro and interviewing individuals to get a good perspective on it. Would be cool to see a long term film project out of it instead of a podcast. Something a long the lines of "Hoop Dreams" for skiing, talking about family life, what it takes in terms of skill, practice, cost, determination, and seeing how it turns out after 5-6 years for those individuals.

Having skied at hills known for being beginner hills, there are a lot of people there all the time, probably for their first time, but of those people barely any seem to come out enough to venture into the park or be considered a "type III" skier. I feel like the hardest part is getting people motivated to come out. A kid who wants to ski might not be able to if the parent's aren't supportive. A kid might not want to ski because none of their friends want to go skiing. Like most people on here, a lot of your friends are ski friends that you've made over the years, but starting out with none can be a hard barrier for someone to overcome. A kid might not be motivated to go skiing because dropping $100 to ski blues on top of rentals is fucking steep. Building a good, supportive community with clubs and groups along with buses or an easier/ cheaper way to access skiing would be a solid solution.
But who am I kidding, it's much easier to get a basketball or a skateboard and plenty of people still have a hard time sticking to those.

how Andy told theses Random people who asked about the Van that the circus Van Was a turtle traveling circus

pinkcamo1000I think we just need to stop viewing ski hills as money-making businesses and treat them like public parks for winter recreation. Still charge for lift tickets, but make them affordable.

Vail's season pass products can be a good deal on lift tickets. A kid or teen can get an Epic local pass for under $389 until they're a teen and $599 as a teenager. This seems like a reasonable deal for a season pass, which includes the largest ski resorts in the US. Running high speed lifts and grooming is expensive. Avalanche control is expensive. It's more expensive for adults, but most people start skiing when they're young.

**This post was edited on Oct 7th 2020 at 1:16:11am

**This post was edited on Oct 7th 2020 at 1:18:03am

Dude that is expensive af compared to the places I ski hahaha

broken_skier0Vail's season pass products can be a good deal on lift tickets. A kid or teen can get an Epic local pass for under $389 until they're a teen and $599 as a teenager. This seems like a reasonable deal for a season pass, which includes the largest ski resorts in the US. Running high speed lifts and grooming is expensive. Avalanche control is expensive. It's more expensive for adults, but most people start skiing when they're young.

**This post was edited on Oct 7th 2020 at 1:16:11am

**This post was edited on Oct 7th 2020 at 1:18:03am

broken_skier0Vail's season pass products can be a good deal on lift tickets. A kid or teen can get an Epic local pass for under $389 until they're a teen and $599 as a teenager. This seems like a reasonable deal for a season pass, which includes the largest ski resorts in the US. Running high speed lifts and grooming is expensive. Avalanche control is expensive. It's more expensive for adults, but most people start skiing when they're young.

**This post was edited on Oct 7th 2020 at 1:16:11am

**This post was edited on Oct 7th 2020 at 1:18:03am

It's a good deal if you travel a lot to different places. Not a good deal if you ski a single 600 vert, ski hill in PA. Sure there are 5 other Vail hills within a 2.5 hour drive, but a lot of working class families dont have the time to travel and would rather have a cheaper pass for a single hill.

broken_skier0Vail's season pass products can be a good deal on lift tickets. A kid or teen can get an Epic local pass for under $389 until they're a teen and $599 as a teenager. This seems like a reasonable deal for a season pass, which includes the largest ski resorts in the US. Running high speed lifts and grooming is expensive. Avalanche control is expensive. It's more expensive for adults, but most people start skiing when they're young.

**This post was edited on Oct 7th 2020 at 1:16:11am

**This post was edited on Oct 7th 2020 at 1:18:03am

Season passes in general are not a good deal if you’ve never skied before either considering something like ~80% or more of first time skiers done try it again

skiP.E.I.Yeah, also it's just easier to accept risk when you have a big cushion of dollars to land in. Most of us can't and couldn't push the limits very hard because if we got even a simple injury it would stop us from working which wasn't an option. I live in Canada where an injury isn't a financial burden for the rest of your life. I'm sure this factor is significantly increased in the states where most people literally can't afford to go to the hospital. If your family has the money to put up for a recovery, you can risk breaking a leg, arm, wrist, whatever progressing on snow.

You don't want to injure yourself with or without health insurance. Tanner Hall's freestyle comp career was over after his Stevens Pass crash. Torin-Yater Wallace quit competing in pipe due to injuries. Sarah Burke died in the pipe.

I have a $8000 deductible, and I'm just covered for the state of Oregon. If I need to be hospitalized out of the state nothing is covered. Kinda fucking insane. So yeah, don't get hurt.

broken_skier0You don't want to injure yourself with or without health insurance. Tanner Hall's freestyle comp career was over after his Stevens Pass crash. Torin-Yater Wallace quit competing in pipe due to injuries. Sarah Burke died in the pipe.

broken_skier0You don't want to injure yourself with or without health insurance. Tanner Hall's freestyle comp career was over after his Stevens Pass crash. Torin-Yater Wallace quit competing in pipe due to injuries. Sarah Burke died in the pipe.

This is obviously true. All of those people are/were pros at the top of the sport, so of course an injury is going to be devastating to their careers, and its very easy to die skiing at the top level.
My point is that if you're poor, getting even a less traumatic injury disproportionately affects you in comparison to a wealthy person, thus making it a bigger concern to get injured even skiing recreationally.
Having less access to health care and less ability to get money if injured is naturally going to make people less willing to accept physical risk than someone who knows they are covered if they break their wrist, collarbone or whatever.

skiP.E.I.This is obviously true. All of those people are/were pros at the top of the sport, so of course an injury is going to be devastating to their careers, and its very easy to die skiing at the top level.
My point is that if you're poor, getting even a less traumatic injury disproportionately affects you in comparison to a wealthy person, thus making it a bigger concern to get injured even skiing recreationally.
Having less access to health care and less ability to get money if injured is naturally going to make people less willing to accept physical risk than someone who knows they are covered if they break their wrist, collarbone or whatever.

Except, I don't think health insurance is what keeps people out of skiing. I mean there's lots of contact sports: football, soccer, hockey, rugby, wrestling, and basketball with a risk of physical injury. You see kids who aren't wealthy participating in all those sports.

broken_skier0Except, I don't think health insurance is what keeps people out of skiing. I mean there's lots of contact sports: football, soccer, hockey, rugby, wrestling, and basketball with a risk of physical injury. You see kids who aren't wealthy participating in all those sport

Good point. It is one thing that could hold back someone's progression though. I don't just mean for insurance either, because that's not an issue in most skiing countries. I know a bunch of people who ski and snowboard who are just very careful and avoid the park because they can't afford an injury.