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a_burgerSki areas as a for profit enterprise is fucking dumb
galardogodCan you expand on this? I’m actually curious.
a_burgerTheres an old saying that the fastest way to become a millionaire in the ski industry is to start off as a billionaire. And it's true, resorts take an absurd amount of money to operate, to the point that the return on investment is very small. But if you are operating a resort because skiing is important to you and you love the sport, lifestyle and community, ROI isn't going to be a big concern for you (so long as you break even)
If you are a publicly traded corporation however, and care a lot about ROI like Vail Resorts, when something happens like a poor winter, or, say a pandemic that results in economic downturn, you will do everything in your power to protect that ROI. This includes lowering the ski experience (making less snow, shortening your season, or cutting your terrain park budget) so your precious ROI does fine but the skiers (us) suffer.
Then next thing you know because of your cuts people start skiing less, the sport stagnates, kids don't pick it up cause there's no parks for them to ride, and boom next thing you know you can't even turn a profit in a normal year because participation has dropped too low and guess what? your precious ROI is in the dump now anyways. This hasn't happened yet but our industry is pretty young and it's a path I could see us easily sliding into in the long term.
Basically as long as stockholders are the ones in charge the ski experience isn't going to be the priority, and if it isn't then whats the point? A ROI that's already miniscule compared to any other industry? A much more sustainable model for the industry that benefits skiers is a workers co-op or private ownership assuming the owner isn't in it for the money (Boyne and POWDR are sort of examples of the latter, don't know if an actual workers co-op has been tried yet but skier/ski club co-ops have worked at places like MRG or Titcomb)
**This post was edited on Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:34:00pm
pinkcamo1000another option is the ski hill being owned by the town like Camden Snow Bowl. The operations are subsidized by the taxpayers, and in return the local residents get discounted passes. I think BMOM is the same way? Basically its a public park for winter activities
a_burgerThen next thing you know because of your cuts people start skiing less, the sport stagnates, kids don't pick it up cause there's no parks for them to ride, and boom next thing you know you can't even turn a profit in a normal year because participation has dropped too low and guess what? your precious ROI is in the dump now anyways. This hasn't happened yet but our industry is pretty young and it's a path I could see us easily sliding into in the long term.
**This post was edited on Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:34:00pm
ColoradoDogfartif keystone dosent have a pre szn park WE BOYCOTT
eheathPark skiing is not integral to the success of the ski/snowboard industry, skiing has been booming since the 70s and parks just started coming around in the late 90s. Parks cost money, they cause injury and there are no where near the popular part of the mountain. Skiing is propped up by wealthy families travelling to resorts for vacation, spending thousands of dollars on lodging, rentals, retails, food/bev, transportation, etc. Skiing/snowbaording will thrive as a recreational sport until the snow stops falling, freestyle/park skiing could certainly die in the next 10 years.
eheathI could see this being a very real thing, parks cost a lot of money to put together, Vail is going to be cutting costs at every corner this year.
pinkcamo1000you're not wrong, but I'm pretty tired of people defending the current industry model of catering to wealthy vacationers. Just because that's the way it is now doesn't mean we shouldn't try to change it.
ColoradoDogfartSTOP STOP STOP STOP STFU
eheathWell you can be disappointed now and accept it, or build up a bunch of expectations and be even more disappointed on opening weekend.
eheathPark skiing is not integral to the success of the ski/snowboard industry, skiing has been booming since the 70s and parks just started coming around in the late 90s. Parks cost money, they cause injury and there are no where near the popular part of the mountain. Skiing is propped up by wealthy families travelling to resorts for vacation, spending thousands of dollars on lodging, rentals, retails, food/bev, transportation, etc. Skiing/snowbaording will thrive as a recreational sport until the snow stops falling, freestyle/park skiing could certainly die in the next 10 years.
eheathWhat would you suggest to do differently? Ski resorts are expensive to operate, they need to make money and most resorts are owned by larger companies like Vail, Altera, Powdr, etc. You can't make some park-specific resort and expect it to thrive.
galardogodCan you expand on this? I’m actually curious.
a_burgerIt's not the 70's or the 90's anymore, skiing has to compete with the internet and video games for kids attention. I'd venture that parks are vastly integral to skiers under the age of 25, aka the future of the sport. All of my skier/boarder friends ride park, and if they don't they are at the very least inspired by park culture/media/movies. It's well known that Millennial participation is much lower then Baby Boomers, I bet that trend continues with Zoomers and terrain parks/freeskiing are a key piece of getting kids to ski/board.
I'd also argue that being "propped up by wealthy families" isn't "thriving"
Btw I also only bolded parks because it's relevant to the thread, there are plenty of other austerity measures resorts can take that very much effect older skiers too
207I agree with your point about Vail fucking everything for profits and that's why I think they're downgrading parks. It's weird because as park skiing gets into the more mainstream with social media the parks have only gotten worse. Meeks made a post about this too how all parks have gotten worse and peaked in 2014 or so maybe even 2016? Park City, Timberline (mostly in the summer the may park setup still fucks so heavy), Mount Snow, Keystone, they're nothing like they were in 2010-2016 era. Even Sunday River and Sugarloaf used to have way crazier builds and events than they do now. Go look at the setup the 1st year of T72...Sunday River will never ever come close to having a park that good because theres no money in it (shoutout Quinn tho he's the man) As the resorts got swallowed by the mega giants the mega giants cut park budgets and now we have what we have. The best bet for the future of parks are rope tows IMO. Those minnesota resorts will be sustainable till the day they die because that's all they have and its cheap af to keep the ropes going. Honestly if you wanna ski exclusively park I'd argue things have dramatically changed and utah and colorado are not the places to do it anymore...go post up in minneapolis and hit the troll, elm, or hyland ropes until your arms hurt.
eheathWhat would you suggest to do differently? Ski resorts are expensive to operate, they need to make money and most resorts are owned by larger companies like Vail, Altera, Powdr, etc. You can't make some park-specific resort and expect it to thrive.
a_burgerYeah that's another option as well. I don't think it's quite as sustainable though for larger areas, for example Black's budget has to be passed by town voters (annually I think?) which makes it kind of vulnerable. They at least have a pretty low operating cost but a larger resort in a much less populated probably couldn't function on taxpayer money alone.
broken_skier0I don't know how some of the small, indie hills manage to stay in business. How do any of the midwest hills turn a profit when you open mid-December, close early March, have to invest in snowmaking because you don't get enough natural snow, and charge $60 for a lift ticket.
eheathI know that Park City is going to cut 1 of 3 parks this year (likely neffland but nothing official).
a_burgerI would expect some mountains to skip on their big jumpline or halfpipe
a_burgerBasically as long as stockholders are the ones in charge the ski experience isn't going to be the priority, and if it isn't then whats the point?
eheathYou can't make some park-specific resort and expect it to thrive.
a_burgerI'd venture that parks are vastly integral to skiers under the age of 25, aka the future of the sport. All of my skier/boarder friends ride park, and if they don't they are at the very least inspired by park culture/media/movies. It's well known that Millennial participation is much lower then Baby Boomers, I bet that trend continues with Zoomers and terrain parks/freeskiing are a key piece of getting kids to ski/board.
I'd also argue that being "propped up by wealthy families" isn't "thriving"
207The best bet for the future of parks are rope tows IMO. Honestly if you wanna ski exclusively park I'd argue things have dramatically changed and utah and colorado are not the places to do it anymore
jakeordieHow far from Gorgoza do you live?
eheathfreestyle/park skiing could certainly die in the next 10 years.
SofaKingSickdude are you kidding? things are very likely to get cut way back but "dead?" lmao get a grip
eheathVail is trying to get rid of all of their parks, eventually. 10 years might be a stretch with the olympics, but the number of parks in NA has been declining, superpipes don't exist outside of 2 or 3 resorts, I've been around this industry for 15 years things change fast.
SofaKingSickthe fact that pipes, which almost nobody uses and are super expensive, even still exist serves to show that even if things are cut way back, resorts will still keep park stuff around at some level if for no other reason than to be able to say they have it
ive been ""around this industry"" for 20 years, things change but "parks could certainly die in the next 10 years" is deep into internet comment hyperbole territory dude. let me know if you want to place a bet lmao
eheathVail is trying to get rid of all of their parks
eheathpark skiing is not important to these large resort brands that are making all of the money
jakeordieBoomers gonna die, and vail gonna take the money and run.....but they don't speak for us.
https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/973946/RECAP-EDIT----SLVSH-CUP-UTAH
snowfinderMake the mountain your park.
snowfinderMake the mountain your park.
eheathWell I even said 10 years is a stretch, but park skiing is not important to these large resort brands that are making all of the money, park skiing is a blip on the radar and its going in the direction of aerials and moguls, where the only reason to ski park is to go to the olympics. Like I said, this won't happen in 10 years maybe, but as you would know then being part of the "industry" (whatever you meant by that) you would know how much less money is in park skiing than there was 10 years ago.
galardogodI talked with a representative from Sunday River, she said no cuts had been made to the snowmaking budget and they have no plans to cut back on the terrain parks.
eheathYou gotta include alterra in that as well, although I've only heard about Vail wanting to get rid of parks.
ColoradoDogfart@eheath
