if god is omnipotent and omniscient

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assuming god was omnipotent:
could god make 2+2=5? yes
make someone else as powerful as him? yes
could he make a rock too heavy for himself to lift? what kind of question is that?
take away his own power? i'm sure he could

as far as the omniscient part... i dunno. we have free will. maybe he knows what we are going to do, but WE are the one's who made the choice to do whatever it is we're gonna do.

Or maybe not, whatever.
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Mar 12 2005 8:58PM

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DRISKEY

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^the rock question is the best one! if god can do anything then he would be able to make a rock too heavy for himself to lift up. but if he cant lift up the rock, then hes cant do everything

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Mar 12 2005 9:00PM

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SmoKinSkier

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My theory is some guy wrote a book a long time ago making up stories and testaments then he hid that book someone found it a couple hunfred years later and Catholism was born!
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Mar 12 2005 9:02PM

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here's my opinion on it(i just thought this up in 2 seconds):

god is not a physical being. he's a spiritual one. so he doesn't have a body and, in fact, doesn't even EXIST in our physical world (except jesus, but that's a different story). so if he wants to lift a rock, he lifts it. period. Even if he made a rock with infinite mass, he would be able to lift it. And this does not mean that he isn't omnipotent. the only reason he can't make a rock he can't lift is because mass doesn't even MATTER to him. so it's not like he can't make a rock he isn't strong enough to lift, it's just that mass is an irelevant factor as far as God is concerned.
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Mar 12 2005 9:06PM

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NOW IT'S ITSANBUL NOT CONSTANTINOPLE!
NOW IT'S ITSANBUL NOT CONSTANTINOPLE!
NOW IT'S ITSANBUL NOT CONSTANTINOPLE!

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Mar 12 2005 9:08PM

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^^ and yea that's the book theory is possible. But I think of it this way:

You can live a christian life, still have lots of fun in life and when you die, if nothing happens, oh well, nothing lost. If you go to heaven, great!

You can live a 'bad' life (using quotes for a reason) and when you die if nothing happens, of well, nothing lost. If you go to hell, oh shit...
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Mar 12 2005 9:08PM

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DRISKEY

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^thats called pascals wager

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Mar 12 2005 9:10PM

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Hell seems a little unreasonable, especially for a benevolent god. An eternity (infinity) of suffering for a few years of being an asshole. Doesn't sound very reasonable

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Mar 12 2005 9:10PM

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J.D.

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I've already answered these questions 15 fucking times. One of the worst things about NS is that you can offer the utterly FINAL verdict on a question and have the same question be asked 2 weeks later. Annoying as hell.

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Mar 12 2005 9:10PM

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nope. but the accepted Catholic theory is that when you stand at the pearly gates, you judge yourself. and if you deem yourself worthy, you go to heaven, if you want to go heaven but don't feel worthy, you go to purgatory for a while and then go to heaven and if you reject God entirely you go to hell.

no cheating allowed either
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Mar 12 2005 9:13PM

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Loner

^so are you saying only christians go to heaven and muslims,buddhists,hindus,etc. burn in hell?

Mar 12 2005 9:13PM

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nope. they accept god as well. I think all religions are beleiving in the same god really, just different culture
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Mar 12 2005 9:14PM

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J.D.

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Fine. Here's the answer (which applies to all of those questions). AGAIN.

''Whatever implies being and nonbeing simultaneously is incompatible with the absolute possibility which falls under divine omnipotence. Such a contradiction is not subject to it, not from any impotence in God, but because it simply does not have the nature of being feasible or possible. Whatever, then, does not involve a contradiction is in the realm of the possible with respect to which God is omnipotent. Whatever involves a contradiction is not within the scope of omnipotence because it cannot qualify for possibility. Better, however, to say that it cannot be done, rather than God cannot do it.''
-St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Vol. 1

In other words, the question of whether god can make a rock too big for him to lift is what you might refer to as a category mistake. It's a trick of language. Asking it is like asking for the name of a bachelor's wife, or what a round square looks like. It's not a limit on God's power that he can't do contradictory things; if he can make the rock, he can lift it. a lot of people dismiss this idea. They say 'Oh! Maybe God could just do something we can't understand or imagine, but if only we could understand it, we would see that he had made a round square.

Nonsense. Literally.

A square has straight sides. That's part of what it is to be a square. Round things aren't straight. If they were, they wouldn't be round. There is nothing deep here. To say that something is a round square is to talk nonsense. It means only marginally more than to say that something is a furpled burgledurff. God can't make a furpled burgledurff because it doesn't mean anything. God can't make a round square because what it means is incoherent. Nothing God might do would count as making a round square. And to say that all this is beyond our comprehension is simply wrong. It isn't beyond our comprehension at all that straight things aren't round. It is as obvious as things get. The point is, again, that it is no limitation on God's power that God can't do contradictory things. The reason God can't is that there is nothing that would count as doing them, so there is nothing there for God to do.

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Mar 12 2005 9:14PM

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^there we go
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Mar 12 2005 9:16PM

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Well powdercanada, I am a slightly evil man, I can't help that it's just too tempting to play with the emotions of the weak. On a side note I have generally good morals, although I don't practice relgion, pray to any gods (I was raised atheist) I don't deny the fact that one or more may exist. Hopefully if there is an afterlife god will cut me some slack, I mean he made me the way I am after all, right?

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Mar 12 2005 9:20PM

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as long as you try to moderately good, i figure you'll go to purgatory for a while (wich is basically as fun as hell, but it's not eternal... apparantly you be there for hundreds of years...)

But i don't have a degree in theology, so don't take my word for granted.
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Mar 12 2005 9:23PM

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on a side note... i'll probably end up in purgatory as well
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Mar 12 2005 9:23PM

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..Phatpat..

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i hope i can sleep tonight.... theroys scare me

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Mar 12 2005 9:25PM

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Loner

purgatory is where the party's at anyways

Mar 12 2005 9:27PM

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Never heard of purgatory what is that like? time out kinda thing?

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Mar 12 2005 9:28PM

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complete and absolute separation from God (AKA pretty similar to hell)

it's like a 'cleansing place' to get ready for heaven if you aren't totally ready for heaven but not heading for hell. I have no idea how long you might spend there, but apparantly it's a long while.

Anyways, I'm gonna go out to get drunk and party (oh the irony) so have a good night all.
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Mar 12 2005 9:31PM

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purgatory supposed to be a place that you go to if your not good enough for heaven but not bad enough for hell...and yeah i think you just are there for a while then you go to heaven

Mar 12 2005 9:31PM

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So you're not allowed to party according to the bible, I better not read this thing because then I would now how bad I am in gods eyes, which would make it worse. IGNORANCE IS BLISS LADIES

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Mar 12 2005 9:32PM

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I wasnt aware that one meant all. I guess when you are that brilliant, you only need to answer one, and that is automatically the final verdict.

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Mar 12 2005 9:33PM

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^ adress J.D next time you speak to him! I will give you an example
'Hello lord J.D I seem to have bested you at the art of internet debating!'

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Mar 12 2005 9:35PM

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skiierman

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Ok look, the rock question is bullshit and it is becasue of this reason, you are talking about one rock through the whole question, yes? Let's say he takes a rock and creates it so he cannot lift it, which satisfies the first part. Now assuming you are still talking about the same rock, he can then create that rock so he can than lift it afterwards his failed attempt thus showing that he can lift the rock that he created heavy enough so he couldn't lift it.

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To Huck. v. The act of throwing oneself off of a cornice, cliff, rock, or any other thing that results in an attempt to fly.

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Mar 12 2005 10:23PM

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skiierman

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@th1337

The question lacks the element of time, which cannot happen in a question concerning an omnipotent being.

----2ond in Command of DANSA-----

To Huck. v. The act of throwing oneself off of a cornice, cliff, rock, or any other thing that results in an attempt to fly.

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

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Mar 12 2005 10:25PM

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Loner

touche

Mar 12 2005 10:34PM

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dimeboy

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^ on the fate/destiny issues if ur in highschool take thease too courses if ur school offers them,
introduction to anthropolight, scocioligy and phyciolighy (i dunno how to speel that word) and philosophy thease courses study why people do certin things.. its pretty damn interesting and may change ur thinking an a couple things this 'god' character does.. i personly don't belive in this figure.. so whne i am in hell all u angels can luagh at me for a having sex before marrige.
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Mar 12 2005 10:53PM

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dimeboy

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**anthropoligy
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Mar 12 2005 10:54PM

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Ghost

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jd, that was one of the most brilliant posts I have ever read

Mar 12 2005 11:50PM

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Bhayter10

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That last part was written by C.S. Lewis right?

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Mar 12 2005 11:54PM

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Anson

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I love how he's like 'It's so aggrivating when I've answered these questions like 15 times' or something.
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Mar 13 2005 12:46AM

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Anson

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PS: Aquinas was a fucking moron
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Mar 13 2005 12:52AM

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strode

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i don't know whether to label JD's post as brilliant or just plain bitter.

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Mar 13 2005 2:01AM

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SteezePatrol

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^or just plain old fucking common sense...

people having too much free time is what started christianity
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Mar 13 2005 2:06AM

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Insane

Well since everyone is basically on their knees for somewhat obvious reasons, I will dare stand and pose another question. Let's say what he says is true as it does make sense, and lets also clear up that I am not an atheist but an agnostic. So yes, it is clear that it is a contradiction. However, saying that it is not possible and that it is, indeed a contradiction would imply that God has to abide by some sort of rules, presumably this would be universal, as if he/she/it would abide by at least one, then most likely all. However, it is also said that the human mind can not comprehend God. It is out of our capacity. Yet we realize that there is an undenyable set of rules and laws that govern all things physical, chemical and biological. Although we may not know all of them yet, they are certainly in our ability to be understood. Therefore, it would seem that God, as it appears also has to follow a set of rules, is able to be understood. I guess this too, is a contradiction is it not?

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Mar 13 2005 5:01AM

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SteezePatrol

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I think we've already figured out that the bible contradicts itself
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Mar 13 2005 3:00PM

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aggro_sk8

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^where? im really curious as to where you think the Bible contradicts itself
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Mar 13 2005 3:04PM

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almostaskier

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'Therefore, it would seem that God, as it appears also has to follow a set of rules, is able to be understood. I guess this too, is a contradiction is it not?'

well, i am in no way at the level of JD, but God cannot do what is contrary to His nature, his definition, for example sin. so ya, he does have some rules, because one cannot do what is against ones natures, ones definition. the rock to heavy to lift, the burrito too hot for him to eat, the tabasco too spicy for him to have thing, is, as JD pointed out, contradiction.

i don't really get at what answer you want, but one, God, cannot do what is contrary to his definition, his nature, like sin: He is Godly, and therefore cannot sin. To sin would make him ungodly. Those are some rules to God, indeed.

but JD and CS Lewis destroyed the rock too heavy thing.
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Mar 13 2005 3:15PM

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Insane

Exactly. So if one set of rules is to be followed and are understood, then surely others must also be. Thus, making God understandable- something that is said to not be a characteristic of God. I already conceded the whole rock thing, so you don't have to tell it again.

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Mar 13 2005 3:33PM

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Ghost

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I thought it was a brilliant post because it simply got the point across.

Driskey, in posing this question you must first take a few things into consideration. God being omniscient, omnipotent, and omniprescent means that he is all knowing, all powerful, and present at all places at all times. We as humans are not so. We are finite, we are linear and know time as having a beggining and an end. We are born into this world at x date and we will die at x date. Because of this, our understanding is limited to that which we know, which we can see, and that which we can touch. It is simply not possible for us to grasp the infinite nature of this.

The problem with these questions is that you are trying to place something that is infinite and limitless into a box that has limits - our understanding. That is where these questions fall short and are contradicting. It's not that God can't do it, it's just that even if he were to.. would we understand? (made clear with the round-square analogy)

As far as the free will question. That is something that I have struggled with for years. It's a completely viable, legitimate question. I've always viewed it like this. Picture God as being a kid playing with a toy train set in his room. God made the train, he made the track, and he made everything around it We are the train, and that traintrack represents our life. We approach a fork in the road. God created that train and he knows exactly which way it is going to choose. We may feel that we have the choice to pick which route, but do we really?

Something I have been thinking about though is that we do have free choice and free will to pick a route. He does know which route we will choose, but leaves it to us to do it. Even though he knows, the ball is still in our court.

Mar 13 2005 4:14PM

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BigZero

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have taken 2 years of philosophy/theology i really dont wanna answer this. would take to long

Mar 13 2005 5:38PM

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