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Statues of slave owners getting torn down.

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JAHBRADOR
Posts: 3003 - Karma: 16,983
ello ello,

i know now this is probably going to be another dumpster fire of a thread but I’m interested to hear how people feel about this issue.

In the past week, there have been multiple cases of statues of slave owners being torn down. The subjects of the statues were celebrated in this way because they were important figures that were pioneers in industry/trade/politics. Yes, they were able to accomplish this off the back of slavery but does this discredit their historical importance? Many important historical figures have benefitted from slavery: Egyptian Pharos, Roman emperors. More currently: Saudi Monarchy, British Monarchy .
i don’t agree that this is right, but I’m not sure I agree with trying to get rid of these statues. Ironically, tearing these statues down is so drastic that it will be immortalised in history as an event that was a big step in the fight against racism. History is studied so we can learn from it, both good and bad.
Jun 9 2020 11:00AM
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WoFIowz
Posts: 9788 - Karma: 72,404
If the monuments were erected during a time when this country was even more racist then yeah. Monuments and statues only commemorate things. Slavery and enemies are not something we should be commemorating. Put them in a museum and people can read about it in books, but why tf would we have parks that use tax money to take care of these statues lol.

Like wtf is this statue??? How we gonna put up a statue of the leader of the enemy and still keep it up? Black, white doesn't even matter. That's like having a statue of the king of England in New York. That's like Germany having nazi statues still (that would be worse but you get my point). Or Iraq still having saddam statues.

Those things were put up in a time that did not follow the ideals of today. Removal of them is a sign of a regime change. Of a change of culture. Of a path forward.

I thought it was dumb a few years ago until I saw this statue.


Jun 9 2020 11:10AM
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little1337
Posts: 8238 - Karma: 47,801
Tbh all the statues are major ugly so tear em down
Jun 9 2020 11:12AM
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WoFIowz
Posts: 9788 - Karma: 72,404
Pretty much every important person had slaves back when. We shouldn't remove monuments of people integral to the founding and progress of this country, but I am 100% for removing all Confederate statues. People still think the south will rise again which is bonkers.
Jun 9 2020 11:13AM
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r00kie
Posts: 5238 - Karma: 59,577
I hate it. I understand the argument of not trying to glorify the actions but we need to presserve all parts of history that way we can continue to learn from it. If the status come down I hope that at least end up in a museum and not just disappear.
Jun 9 2020 11:33AM
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11954 - Karma: 12,297
r00kieI hate it. I understand the argument of not trying to glorify the actions but we need to presserve all parts of history that way we can continue to learn from it. If the status come down I hope that at least end up in a museum and not just disappear.

As a history nerd I share the same sentiment. Good or bad they represent our history. If we are to be morally consistent, any statue or monument that relates to the abuse, enslavement, and/or mistreatment of some group of people should be taken down. Which would be pretty much every statue and monument you see today.




I do understand both sides of the argument.
Jun 9 2020 11:55AM
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Dustin.
Posts: 13839 - Karma: 7,704
I think there is a great point to be made on either side. In general, I'm not a fan of removing history because it makes you uncomfortable. Auchwitz, Dachau, the Roman Colosseum are all still standing for good reason. Some of these statues are slightly different in that in many ways they celebrate the individual, but I'm still hesitant to empower someone with an opinion to rewrite the history books.
Jun 9 2020 12:15PM
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SuspiciousFish
Posts: 2781 - Karma: 16,810
Turd__AuthorityPretty much every important person had slaves back when. We shouldn't remove monuments of people integral to the founding and progress of this country, but I am 100% for removing all Confederate statues. People still think the south will rise again which is bonkers.


I remember reading most of those statues were put up after the Civil War as kind of a "Fuck You" to the north and reconstruction. So in that sense yeah its not a bad idea to take them down.
Jun 9 2020 1:35PM
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270on420out
Posts: 7507 - Karma: 51,054
If you want to keep them as a reminder of our history then they should be in a museum; not on a pedestal
Jun 9 2020 1:58PM
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CLQ
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 11,260
If we had statues of the 9/11 terrorists or of the Rosenbergs everyone would be for tearing them down. It's a load of horseshit that these statues are still up. The vast majority of them were put up after the war... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Daughters_of_the_Confederacy
Jun 9 2020 2:04PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51584 - Karma: 161,684
I can see both sides of it. Not wanting to tear down or feeling like it's a piece if history. Or not wanting to see some of these statues anymore. A bunch were built a long time after the war anyway.

I don't really care about statues but I do like history. Idk i think they should be selective to some extent. Although they could take every statue of everything anywhere down and it wouldn't really impact me.
Jun 9 2020 2:41PM
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WoFIowz
Posts: 9788 - Karma: 72,404
CLQIf we had statues of the 9/11 terrorists or of the Rosenbergs everyone would be for tearing them down. It's a load of horseshit that these statues are still up. The vast majority of them were put up after the war... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Daughters_of_the_Confederacy


Nice link
Jun 9 2020 3:05PM
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CLQ
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 11,260
r00kieI hate it. I understand the argument of not trying to glorify the actions but we need to presserve all parts of history that way we can continue to learn from it. If the status come down I hope that at least end up in a museum and not just disappear.


Should we have a statue of Osama Bin-Laden so we can remember all parts of history? There is remembering history and then there is glorifying it, what does a statue or a memorial say about that?
Jun 9 2020 3:34PM
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r00kie
Posts: 5238 - Karma: 59,577
CLQShould we have a statue of Osama Bin-Laden so we can remember all parts of history? There is remembering history and then there is glorifying it, what does a statue or a memorial say about that?

My post states my view. Not entertaining the troll this time.
Jun 9 2020 3:42PM
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PeppermillReno
Posts: 4798 - Karma: -683
I’d prefer to leave history in place so it can be learned from but I don’t give a fuck about the confederate statues coming down.
Jun 9 2020 6:15PM
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eheath
Posts: 61588 - Karma: 122,917
I feel like Statues are a thing of the past, they were originally made so that people wouldn't forget about these figures, but now that its 2020 we don't need a statue to remind us of the past, we can google it, even 20 years ago you couldn't do that.
Jun 9 2020 6:17PM
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PeppermillReno
Posts: 4798 - Karma: -683
eheathI feel like Statues are a thing of the past, they were originally made so that people wouldn't forget about these figures, but now that its 2020 we don't need a statue to remind us of the past, we can google it, even 20 years ago you couldn't do that.


Physical things that aren’t genetic and found everywhere are important. Sculpting important art not everyone wants to go into a museum to see paintings. These people got statues for a reason and you probably won’t google them if you don’t walk by and ask ‘who the hell is that.’

Im not gonna defend the confederacy though. I’d leave them up as a reminder but don’t care if they come down. I’m also not from the south.
Jun 9 2020 6:23PM
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*TURBONERD*
Posts: 15080 - Karma: 9,152
Honestly, my favorite part of all this is the idiots who tried to get the statue out of the river with very little manpower.


I think most people have said all that can be at this point - that there is theoretically some historical merit to keeping statues, but that they can also serve as monuments to oppression. I think things are a bit more black and white regarding many Confederate statues in the US, because, as somebody else already noted, they were built well after the Civil War as part of an obvious attempt to strip African-Americans of their newfound political rights; this went hand-in-hand with the original establishment of the Klan and eventually Jim Crow laws. With regards to Colston as well, I don’t think there’s a case that any good he may have done comes close to cancelling out just the ~80,000 people were trafficked across the Atlantic under his oversight - to say nothing of the 1 in 4 who died en route, or their countless descendants who lost so much of their cultural heritage.
Jun 10 2020 4:58AM
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holytoast
Posts: 683 - Karma: 301
Dustin.I think there is a great point to be made on either side. In general, I'm not a fan of removing history because it makes you uncomfortable. Auchwitz, Dachau, the Roman Colosseum are all still standing for good reason. Some of these statues are slightly different in that in many ways they celebrate the individual, but I'm still hesitant to empower someone with an opinion to rewrite the history books.


facts
Jun 10 2020 4:29PM
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Jpurd
Posts: 3196 - Karma: 3,554
Hey OP, shut the hell up.
Jun 10 2020 4:48PM
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skierman
Posts: 8319 - Karma: 7,598
r00kieI hate it. I understand the argument of not trying to glorify the actions but we need to presserve all parts of history that way we can continue to learn from it. If the status come down I hope that at least end up in a museum and not just disappear.


I wonder how Germany preserves their history without having statues of Hitler still hanging around.... hmmm.....

I mean if there was already a designated place for preserving historical artifacts and records like a museum or library there wouldn't be a need for statues to preserve history... hmm....

I guess you're right though. We never had museums or historical texts so these statues that were erected during Jim Crow and the Civil Rights movement up to 90 years after the Civil War is the only way to preserve history... hmmm....

WAIT A SECOND! ITS ALMOST LIKE THEY BUILT THESE STATUES TO OPPRESS BLACK PEOPLE UNDER THE GUISE OF REMEMBERING OUR HISTORY AND STUPID WHITE FUCKS LIKE YOU FELL FOR IT! OMG!!!
Jun 10 2020 5:27PM
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11954 - Karma: 12,297
The referenced post has been removed.

You’re missing out, it’s a great time.
Jun 10 2020 5:33PM
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JAHBRADOR
Posts: 3003 - Karma: 16,983
ski.loonHey OP, shut the hell up.


Why? Do you mind sharing your views?

**This post was edited on Jun 10th 2020 at 8:45:36pm
Jun 10 2020 5:35PM
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TRVP_ANGEL
Posts: 12503 - Karma: 116,098
damn this is gonna be devastating news for the people that the statues were built for

**This post was edited on Jun 10th 2020 at 5:41:04pm
Jun 10 2020 5:36PM
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MiIfHunter
Posts: 3978 - Karma: 4,260
Wow you are a fucking idiot. Taking down a statue or a building is not rewriting history you jackass.
Dustin.I think there is a great point to be made on either side. In general, I'm not a fan of removing history because it makes you uncomfortable. Auchwitz, Dachau, the Roman Colosseum are all still standing for good reason. Some of these statues are slightly different in that in many ways they celebrate the individual, but I'm still hesitant to empower someone with an opinion to rewrite the history books.
Jun 10 2020 8:37PM
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Dustin.
Posts: 13839 - Karma: 7,704
Calm down psycho. Allow me to say something wildly divisive on the internet: I disagree in certain circumstances.
MiIfHunterWow you are a fucking idiot. Taking down a statue or a building is not rewriting history you jackass.
Jun 10 2020 9:30PM
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Chunderface
Posts: 2510 - Karma: 9,787
skiermanI wonder how Germany preserves their history without having statues of Hitler still hanging around.... hmmm.....

I mean if there was already a designated place for preserving historical artifacts and records like a museum or library there wouldn't be a need for statues to preserve history... hmm....

I guess you're right though. We never had museums or historical texts so these statues that were erected during Jim Crow and the Civil Rights movement up to 90 years after the Civil War is the only way to preserve history... hmmm....

WAIT A SECOND! ITS ALMOST LIKE THEY BUILT THESE STATUES TO OPPRESS BLACK PEOPLE UNDER THE GUISE OF REMEMBERING OUR HISTORY AND STUPID WHITE FUCKS LIKE YOU FELL FOR IT! OMG!!!


Germany doesn't "preserve" its history, though. Its actually does the opposite - they have tried to erase it entirely. They have removed every single public sign of the Nazi party, except for creating museums out of concentrations camps, going so far as to make presentation of the swastika a criminal offense. There is no free speech in Germany regarding WWII. China takes a similar approach. China has actively tried to prevent its people from even knowing about what happened at Tienanmen Square. They have censored history books.

Fuck that.

These statutes and monuments are the realist possible expression of our history. For better or worse - this is how we learn from it. We don't remove it. We don't cover it up. We look at it and own it.

We are turning into Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped.”

**This post was edited on Jun 11th 2020 at 2:35:03am
Jun 11 2020 2:18AM
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CLQ
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 11,260
skeirmanGermany doesn't "preserve" its history, though. Its actually does the opposite - they have tried to erase it entirely. They have removed every single public sign of the Nazi party, except for creating museums out of concentrations camps, going so far as to make presentation of the swastika a criminal offense. There is no free speech in Germany regarding WWII. China takes a similar approach. China has actively tried to prevent its people from even knowing about what happened at Tienanmen Square. They have censored history books.

Fuck that.

These statutes and monuments are the realist possible expression of our history. For better or worse - this is how we learn from it. We don't remove it. We don't cover it up. We look at it and own it.

We are turning into Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped.”

**This post was edited on Jun 11th 2020 at 2:35:03am


Hell yeah i agree with everything you said, put up that Osama statue on Ground Zero already America!!! Stop trying to erase history!!!
Jun 11 2020 2:36AM
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xxACIDTRIPxx
Posts: 5980 - Karma: 8,175
little1337Tbh all the statues are major ugly so tear em down


You have no taste or respect.
Jun 11 2020 2:47AM
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JmckR
Posts: 1279 - Karma: 5,871
So many videos on social media of statues being ripped down that have links to historic racism and slavery... filmed on phones made in China by companies with links to child slavery...
Jun 11 2020 6:26AM
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dolanslebensraum
Posts: 5959 - Karma: -13,097
In the german alps in birtchesgraden you can take an elevator up to the eagles nest to the place hitler used to chill with eva and enjoy his morphine and methamphetamine high. It was cool to see with my family when we took a trip to germany. If it was torn down or closed i think that would be a terrible loss to society. Protecting a place like the eagles nest doesnt mean you think hitler was awesome (i personally do but thats a different story), it just means you value the memory of the past and things that give tourists a very real sense of history and remembering the time their ancestors lived in.

i dont really care that statues are getting torn down, but its kind of sad.

i wonder if 20 years in the future elementary schools are going to stop educating kids that slavery once existed in america and show them the movie “black panther” and say its historically accurate.

i know that sounds crazy but i wouldn't put it past the clowns on the left.

Everyone needs to chill. I think its more important to fire aggressive assholes from police departments than it is to tear down statues.



theres probably going to be obama statues put up around the country in the future. I wonder what leftists would think if i tore down obama statues because obama didnt do a god damn thing to reform the criminal justice system, unlike trump who literally freed and pardoned tens of thousands of convicts and put in laws to help felons have an easier time getting jobs after incarceration? I bet woopi goldberg would be totally fine with me tearing down an obama statue lol.

**This post was edited on Jun 11th 2020 at 6:58:39am
Jun 11 2020 6:53AM
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JmckR
Posts: 1279 - Karma: 5,871
DolanReloadedIn the german alps in birtchesgraden you can take an elevator up to the eagles nest to the place hitler used to chill with eva and enjoy his morphine and methamphetamine high. It was cool to see with my family when we took a trip to germany. If it was torn down or closed i think that would be a terrible loss to society. Protecting a place like the eagles nest doesnt mean you think hitler was awesome (i personally do but thats a different story), it just means you value the memory of the past and things that give tourists a very real sense of history and remembering the time their ancestors lived in.

i dont really care that statues are getting torn down, but its kind of sad.

i wonder if 20 years in the future elementary schools are going to stop educating kids that slavery once existed in america and show them the movie “black panther” and say its historically accurate.

i know that sounds crazy but i wouldn't put it past the clowns on the left.

Everyone needs to chill. I think its more important to fire aggressive assholes from police departments than it is to tear down statues.



theres probably going to be obama statues put up around the country in the future. I wonder what leftists would think if i tore down obama statues because obama didnt do a god damn thing to reform the criminal justice system, unlike trump who literally freed and pardoned tens of thousands of convicts and put in laws to help felons have an easier time getting jobs after incarceration? I bet woopi goldberg would be totally fine with me tearing down an obama statue lol.

**This post was edited on Jun 11th 2020 at 6:58:39am


Okay, I'll bite. Why do you think Hitler was awesome ? Educate me
Jun 11 2020 7:41AM
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Charlie_Kelly
Posts: 11954 - Karma: 12,297
DolanReloadedIn the german alps in birtchesgraden you can take an elevator up to the eagles nest to the place hitler used to chill with eva and enjoy his morphine and methamphetamine high. It was cool to see with my family when we took a trip to germany. If it was torn down or closed i think that would be a terrible loss to society. Protecting a place like the eagles nest doesnt mean you think hitler was awesome (i personally do but thats a different story), it just means you value the memory of the past and things that give tourists a very real sense of history and remembering the time their ancestors lived in.

i dont really care that statues are getting torn down, but its kind of sad.

i wonder if 20 years in the future elementary schools are going to stop educating kids that slavery once existed in america and show them the movie “black panther” and say its historically accurate.

i know that sounds crazy but i wouldn't put it past the clowns on the left.

Everyone needs to chill. I think its more important to fire aggressive assholes from police departments than it is to tear down statues.



theres probably going to be obama statues put up around the country in the future. I wonder what leftists would think if i tore down obama statues because obama didnt do a god damn thing to reform the criminal justice system, unlike trump who literally freed and pardoned tens of thousands of convicts and put in laws to help felons have an easier time getting jobs after incarceration? I bet woopi goldberg would be totally fine with me tearing down an obama statue lol.

**This post was edited on Jun 11th 2020 at 6:58:39am

Actually Hitler spent very little time at the Eagles Nest and spent far more of his time entertaining guests at the Berghof, which unfortunately was destroyed, though the underground bunkers remain.
Jun 11 2020 8:49AM
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skierman
Posts: 8319 - Karma: 7,598
skeirmanGermany doesn't "preserve" its history, though. Its actually does the opposite - they have tried to erase it entirely. They have removed every single public sign of the Nazi party, except for creating museums out of concentrations camps, going so far as to make presentation of the swastika a criminal offense. There is no free speech in Germany regarding WWII. China takes a similar approach. China has actively tried to prevent its people from even knowing about what happened at Tienanmen Square. They have censored history books.


OH REALLY? I GUESS THAT'S WHY THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT MANDATES ALL CHILDREN MUST LEARN ABOUT NAZIS AND THEIR RISE TO POWER AND THEIR ROLE IN WWII IN SCHOOL.

THAT'S TOTALLY THE SAME AS CHINA ERASING ANY MENTION OF THE TIENANMEN SQUARE MASSACRE FROM ALL HISTORY BOOKS.

YOU MAKE AMAZING COMPARISON!
Jun 11 2020 2:31PM
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xxACIDTRIPxx
Posts: 5980 - Karma: 8,175
TheMailManSo many videos on social media of statues being ripped down that have links to historic racism and slavery... filmed on phones made in China by companies with links to child slavery...


Their lives are illusions
Jun 11 2020 3:48PM
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MiIfHunter
Posts: 3978 - Karma: 4,260
DolerogadoTheir lives are illusions


shut the fuck up u dumb redneck kiwi
Jun 11 2020 4:19PM
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Film.
Posts: 2643 - Karma: 2,413
If you know you know
Jun 11 2020 5:01PM
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Casey
Posts: 7840 - Karma: 24,150
Sometimes I wonder, if the North had just let the South secede and there was no civil war, how long would it have taken them to end slavery. I think they would have quickly devolved into a failed state as slaves fled for the northern border, but who knows.
Jun 12 2020 4:00PM
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MiIfHunter
Posts: 3978 - Karma: 4,260
CaseySometimes I wonder, if the North had just let the South secede and there was no civil war, how long would it have taken them to end slavery. I think they would have quickly devolved into a failed state as slaves fled for the northern border, but who knows.


other states and non-state actors would have intervened and it would have ended at some point in time
Jun 12 2020 4:03PM
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sqeellicbic
Posts: 421 - Karma: 3,356
Commemorating someone is completely different than remembering their history. In my opinion, a statue does nothing to remember history.

DolanReloadedIn the german alps in birtchesgraden you can take an elevator up to the eagles nest to the place hitler used to chill with eva and enjoy his morphine and methamphetamine high. It was cool to see with my family when we took a trip to germany. If it was torn down or closed i think that would be a terrible loss to society. Protecting a place like the eagles nest doesnt mean you think hitler was awesome (i personally do but thats a different story), it just means you value the memory of the past and things that give tourists a very real sense of history and remembering the time their ancestors lived in.


What would you prefer? If they put up a statue of hitler at the eagles nest or if they put up a couple plaques or something explaining the significance of the location (there might already be idk). My point is, there are much better ways to remember history than a statue. A statue's purpose is not to remember history but rather put the person on a pedestal, quite literally.
Jun 12 2020 4:43PM
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Chunderface
Posts: 2510 - Karma: 9,787
You’re stupid if you can’t understand this.
skiermanOH REALLY? I GUESS THAT'S WHY THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT MANDATES ALL CHILDREN MUST LEARN ABOUT NAZIS AND THEIR RISE TO POWER AND THEIR ROLE IN WWII IN SCHOOL.

THAT'S TOTALLY THE SAME AS CHINA ERASING ANY MENTION OF THE TIENANMEN SQUARE MASSACRE FROM ALL HISTORY BOOKS.

YOU MAKE AMAZING COMPARISON!


**This post was edited on Jun 12th 2020 at 5:04:28pm
Jun 12 2020 4:59PM
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Casey
Posts: 7840 - Karma: 24,150
MiIfHunterother states and non-state actors would have intervened and it would have ended at some point in time

Probably like the 1960s or so.
Jun 12 2020 9:39PM
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CLQ
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 11,260
TEAR IT ALL DOWN
Jun 12 2020 9:57PM
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SuspiciousFish
Posts: 2781 - Karma: 16,810
CaseySometimes I wonder, if the North had just let the South secede and there was no civil war, how long would it have taken them to end slavery. I think they would have quickly devolved into a failed state as slaves fled for the northern border, but who knows.


The problem is a lot of the world was dependent on the cotton the slaves produced. My guess is England would have done its best to keep the program going and do whatever they could to profit off it while bullshitting some kind of moral high ground like they usually do. I mean, they were strapping Indian rebels to canons about this time and had no problem selling arms to the South.
Jun 12 2020 10:21PM
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Chunderface
Posts: 2510 - Karma: 9,787
CLQTEAR IT ALL DOWN


What's your address?
Jun 12 2020 10:24PM
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