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Why can't more ski brands advertise like Capita Snowboards [ESSAY WARNING]

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FruitBootPro
Posts: 3121 - Karma: 14,034
https://capitasnowboarding.com/

Just click on the link. Seriously, not only is their website fucking beautiful, but they capture so much energy with its design, as well as the designs, names, and advertisement of their snowboards. "The Black Snowboard of Death", "Neoslasher", "Warpspeed". Graphics are great of course. Same with Ride, their products are named stuff like "Commissioner" and "Algorhythm". I wish we could have some more of this kind of energy in skiing. Not all snowboard brands are like this either (for example, Burton and Jones are pretty conservative now), but I just think Capita sets a really amazing example of engaging design throughout all its public presence.

I was talking to some bladers about this too. Back in the day, you had brands like Senate, which had a logo of dude with a bloody baseball bat, and the motto "Support Angry Youth". Or its rival FR, whose motto was "Your Wheels Suck". Although blading lacks this edginess nowadays, skateboarding still has it. If you just click on "skateboard decks" on Tactics, literally every other deck graphic that comes up has edginess to it. A cartoon of a dude sticking a sword down his throat and out his crotch; a sobbing farm family fleeing their house as it gets shredded by a tornado; a depiction of satan; skulls, alcohol, blood.

Skiing needs this kinda energy in it, not only from the riders' personalities and community attitudes (which we have), but from the actual aesthetics on the products, advertisements, and websites. I'd say Full Tilt does it pretty well still, they manage to make their boot designs actually stylish compared to all their competitors, and that's WHY they have so much hype within the freeskiing community, regardless of the actual foot niches their boots fill.

Don't get me wrong, current skiing brands are doing fucking great jobs. Armada, Faction, Line, K2, Moment, and ON3P are all putting out good ass skis and fire graphics right now. But I feel like, when it comes to marketing, pretty much all brands aren't taking advantage of what freeskiing's image could become. I mean, doesn't everyone here want to go back to the gangster era of skiing anyway? We don't need to go all the way back or get rid of the new tricks, but we should maybe try to put a more swagger in how our brands present themselves.

**This thread was edited on May 31st 2020 at 1:14:07am
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May 31 2020 1:13AM
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little1337
Posts: 8272 - Karma: 48,472
I think it just comes down to money. It's expensive to advertise and freeskiing doesn't have the money it used to.
May 31 2020 5:29AM
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BradFiAusNzCoCa
Posts: 7096 - Karma: 62,235
They don’t want to risk alienating buyers. You’re not always advertising to the park rats, you’re advertising to the 14 year old skier’s dad too.

But yeah I know what you mean. I enjoy the more “fuck it attitude” that snowboarding and skating has sometimes.

I think J Skis is doing a really good job at that.
May 31 2020 7:55AM
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Julius_Steezer
Posts: 776 - Karma: 4,546
Feel like what you basically want is the OG K2s (hellbents, obsetheds etc) to come back...


and I am 100% for that
May 31 2020 8:20AM
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TheHamburglar
Posts: 3895 - Karma: 3,317
skiing needs more thrasher
May 31 2020 8:30AM
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JmckR
Posts: 1298 - Karma: 5,806
I could write an essay twice as long disputing everything you've just said in that irrational ramble of fcking nonsense
May 31 2020 9:03AM
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.nasty
Posts: 10582 - Karma: 11,184
Simple, the skate style doesn't sell very well in skiing... yet.

Even though a brand like say, Armada, has a younger and more freestyle image, they're still a ski brand and have to make sure their product sells to non-NSers. Middle aged folk and such don't much care for the skate style image.
May 31 2020 9:43AM
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AlexMartini
Posts: 2990 - Karma: 1,942
Just try snowboarding, it's pretty fun
May 31 2020 9:57AM
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doomquasar
Posts: 145 - Karma: 945
Low key funny scrolling on that site past ALPINE ASSAULT FORCE, TOTAL RESORT DESTROYERS and PARK ANNIHILATORS to...............100% CLEAN ENERGY

although I guess being green is the most punk thing one can be these days (green?? In this economy?!?) but it makes the co-opting of violent language as a marketing tool stand out in a peculiar way lmao
May 31 2020 11:06AM
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skiP.E.I.
Posts: 7853 - Karma: 22,251
Although I appreciate interesting graphics, marketing is totally immaterial to me. I'm only concerned with the performance of the item and price. In the end, it's all about fun and skiing as much as I can. The equipment is just the tools to that end. I can put my own graphics on my skis if I want to.
I'd be happy with buying skis from a company with a basic website and blank topsheets if they pass the savings on to me and their goods worked best for my skiing.
In regards to graphics, I think skeletons on fire, blood and all that punk stuff can be cool when well executed, but it often is just indistinguishable from other products of its ilk.
May 31 2020 12:11PM
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jakeordie
Posts: 664 - Karma: 3,277
.nastySimple, the skate style doesn't sell very well in skiing... yet.

Any day now.
May 31 2020 1:04PM
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ASSholebomber22
Posts: 6735 - Karma: 71,558
Maybe I'm missing something OP but that website is very similar to many ski and bike brands
May 31 2020 1:56PM
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FruitBootPro
Posts: 3121 - Karma: 14,034
.nastySimple, the skate style doesn't sell very well in skiing... yet.

Even though a brand like say, Armada, has a younger and more freestyle image, they're still a ski brand and have to make sure their product sells to non-NSers. Middle aged folk and such don't much care for the skate style image.


I'm not sure why the skate style wouldn't sell well in skiing when a large amount of skiers skate, especially freestyle skiers.

I don't know what Armada has to offer to older/more traditional skiers product-wise. They have a line of twintip park/freestyle skis, three freestyle pro models, two directional freeride lines, and the Zero series, which is an eclectic mix of unconventional ski designs. Maybe those kinds of skiers would gravitate towards the freeride lines, but wouldn't they wanna go for something like Salomon QSTs, Rossi Souls, Head Kores? And if they wanted something with more energy, I feel like they'd appreciate spunkier marketing.

Same with Line. All their skis are generally on the lighter and flexier side, and almost all are twin tips. The Pollard series is marketed towards big mountain freestylers, freeriders, and powder hounds. Their most recent ski release was a piste ripper engineered to appeal to freeskiers.

I don't think freestyle ski brands have much to lose if they make their marketing more engaging to the youth.
May 31 2020 2:45PM
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Kretzschmar
Posts: 6714 - Karma: 98,452
Brands like K2 used to have the illest graphics in my opinion but ever since Ryan Schmies left they're absolute dogshit. How do you go from incredible hand-drawn masterpieces like these...

(fun quote from Schmies' site about this Hellbent graphic directly below: "This one got some looks on the mountain and well.....everywhere else. I can't even recall the amount of hate mail this generated from angry parents. In the end, it sold out and remains a personal favorite."













to this.....






Are they clean designs? Yea, but honestly, I'd love to see ski graphics have more character than being fairly lazy & reusing the chain logo every damn year with really simple graphics.
May 31 2020 4:35PM
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FruitBootPro
Posts: 3121 - Karma: 14,034
KretzschmarBrands like K2 used to have the illest graphics in my opinion but ever since Ryan Schmies left they're absolute dogshit. How do you go from incredible hand-drawn masterpieces like these...

(fun quote from Schmies' site about this Hellbent graphic directly below: "This one got some looks on the mountain and well.....everywhere else. I can't even recall the amount of hate mail this generated from angry parents. In the end, it sold out and remains a personal favorite."













to this.....






Are they clean designs? Yea, but honestly, I'd love to see ski graphics have more character than being fairly lazy & reusing the chain logo every damn year with really simple graphics.

Those drawing graphics are pretty dope but I'm actually a fan of the new K2 topsheets, especially this year's Reckoners and stuff.
I'm talking more actual brand presentation than ski designs. I said in the original post that pretty much all freestyle brands' ski graphics are fucking fire right now.
May 31 2020 4:58PM
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jwilly
Posts: 487 - Karma: 2,681
TheMailManI could write an essay twice as long disputing everything you've just said in that irrational ramble of fcking nonsense


Then do it pussy
May 31 2020 5:12PM
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Kretzschmar
Posts: 6714 - Karma: 98,452
FruitBootProThose drawing graphics are pretty dope but I'm actually a fan of the new K2 topsheets, especially this year's Reckoners and stuff.
I'm talking more actual brand presentation than ski designs. I said in the original post that pretty much all freestyle brands' ski graphics are fucking fire right now.


I'd agree & say that the vast majority of brands have good/great graphics now but I really believe K2 fell off so hard in that department. Ski graphics do fall under the brand presentation. On-hill/word of mouth is still more effective advertising than most other formats IMO.

I had several pairs of K2 Domains growing up and would've continued buying K2 in the future because they make fun skis but shit-tier graphics aren't something I'd be willing to shell out money for. I can find other brands that make just as good if not better skis with graphics I'm hyped on.

You mentioned skate graphics being edgy, how do those fall under brand presentation & ski graphics don't? If graphics didn't factor into "brand image" & marketing then they should just make them monotone with a brand logo on it.
May 31 2020 5:27PM
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little1337
Posts: 8272 - Karma: 48,472
KretzschmarI'd agree & say that the vast majority of brands have good/great graphics now but I really believe K2 fell off so hard in that department. Ski graphics do fall under the brand presentation. On-hill/word of mouth is still more effective advertising than most other formats IMO.

I had several pairs of K2 Domains growing up and would've continued buying K2 in the future because they make fun skis but shit-tier graphics aren't something I'd be willing to shell out money for. I can find other brands that make just as good if not better skis with graphics I'm hyped on.

You mentioned skate graphics being edgy, how do those fall under brand presentation & ski graphics don't? If graphics didn't factor into "brand image" & marketing then they should just make them monotone with a brand logo on it.


I think the new fad these days is simpler cleaner graphics. I personally like the older cartoony abstract ones like the line Invaders but it seems like most brands like K2, Line, even ON3P to some extent have been making their graphics simpler colors with lines and designs on them rather than drawings. Not necessarily a bad thing, just different I guess.
May 31 2020 5:48PM
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J_Christoph
Posts: 2519 - Karma: 8,755
^^Nothing beats the throwback K2 graphics! Love my Hellbents (lowkey always wished I had the orange ones though) and Pettitors. I loved K2’s style back then with Seth and Pettit and the rest of the rockers.

That being said, the Reckoners came out sooooo dope. I’m always torn between clean/simple and more creative and artistic.

May 31 2020 9:32PM
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Chunderface
Posts: 2534 - Karma: 9,926
I feel like Moment is the only company that does anything close, and they're utterly tame compared to skating. Especially old school skating. Skiing is soft as fuck on this.
May 31 2020 11:41PM
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Demillsta
Posts: 395 - Karma: 1,214
J_Christoph^^Nothing beats the throwback K2 graphics! Love my Hellbents (lowkey always wished I had the orange ones though) and Pettitors. I loved K2’s style back then with Seth and Pettit and the rest of the rockers.

That being said, the Reckoners came out sooooo dope. I’m always torn between clean/simple and more creative and artistic.


What size are those
Jun 1 2020 2:06AM
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J_Christoph
Posts: 2519 - Karma: 8,755
DemillstaWhat size are those

Reckoner? 184 and then 144-122-136
Jun 1 2020 8:52AM
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olic
Posts: 294 - Karma: 931
I'd much rather have a clean K2 or Eric Pollard style graphic on my skis than stuff like this, but maybe I'm just old....

Jun 1 2020 10:59AM
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FruitBootPro
Posts: 3121 - Karma: 14,034
Guys, this isn't about ski art. The high-density cartoon era was pretty fucking cool but current graphics for literally all freeski brands are beyond satisfactory for me. I'm talking about the other ways in which ski brands build their image. It'd be better if we had a bit more attitude imo. I think Ninthward was like this but I wasn't around for that.
Jun 1 2020 1:08PM
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Bended_Toenail
Posts: 1417 - Karma: 10,220
100%. some ski brands just seem boring now. Even armada's graphics are getting lamer. k2 used to be the goat at graphics but now they make the poachers.

on the flip side I think that J is breaking this trend.
Jun 1 2020 1:45PM
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SEABURN
Posts: 4859 - Karma: 2,762
some skiers are cool and edgy, A LOT aren't. We've got more dentists, church groups, and PTA moms who ski. The DNA of skiing is way more "tight butthole"

Snowboarding & skateboarding have rebellion built into the culture. With one upset Karen & her lawyer able to fuck up a small ski company, I can understand why a company would tone down their graphics to keep sales smooth.

Small brands who do cater to us freestylers do a pretty damn good job imo. But freestyle is a shrinking segment of the sport, I can only see the smaller brands having the ability to keep a raw edge, and having it resonate with their audience in a positive way.

Ski advertising is a weird space. I think Armada's branding has been exceptional lately. Freestylers love the ARV series, and they have their Tracer series for those who want a more traditional ski. Appealing to both sides while not being completely bland is a tough line to walk. But if you're in the same broad category (ski mfg) as brands like Kastle & Stockli what's the right move?

What are your thoughts here @schmies ?

He's behind all your favorite K2 graphics. check out his website - https://www.schmiesdesign.com/ - so much talent
Jun 1 2020 2:22PM
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doomquasar
Posts: 145 - Karma: 945
The DNA of skiing is way more "tight butthole"


the most powerful sentence i've ever read
Jun 1 2020 2:30PM
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Vitiligo
Posts: 535 - Karma: 1,126
I know Moment isn't the best with their marketing but their graphics are consistently amazing every year. I think it's the perfect mix of clean and the older K2 style stuff.
Jun 1 2020 2:45PM
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J_skis
Posts: 1147 - Karma: 16,638
BradAusNzCoCaI think J Skis is doing a really good job at that.

Thanks yo! There's definitely is a bit of an alienating factor to putting rad art on skis, but since we don't sell our product in ski shops it's not nearly as important to us.

Soooo much of ski graphic design is dictated by the old school buyer in a ski shop. Most graphics (speaking from past experience running Line under K2) start off really rad and then get diluted to something black & simple by the end because that's what the shop wants. They're afraid that offering anything too edgy would push out the normal customer who comes in to buy skis at full price and always favor the "safe" option that nobody is going to love but definitely nobody won't like. It's less risky than doing something creative because creativity always has critics.

For everyone talking about @schmies too, he's a badass legend and the whole reason ski graphics actually saw such a cool revolution putting art tip to tail. We let him run wild on a graphic for our line this year, it's called Nocturnal Daydream and it's creepy as hell in the best way possible. Stoked to release this one
Jun 1 2020 2:54PM
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JAHSHUA
Posts: 347 - Karma: 200
Think there's a lot of pie for the taking within freeskiing ~ especially when it comes to advertising. But it is a niche and therefore a gamble with your brand's money. Lots of brands have become very sterile - IE Saga - because of who owns them. If you're not watching the new vishnu movie, awaiting AHall's next edit, or still upset about Revision's scandal, then you likely have no idea what's cool. And if you don't know that, how could you develop products and a marketing message that speak to your buyers. Simply said, brand's that make it in freesking have to be run by people in the scene.


I also think what makes each brand potentially great is their effort to recreate skiing through a new lense. K2's artwork was so dope back in the day, but it would make no sense for 10 other ski brands to replicate similar graphics. Rather, each ski brand is more effective when it is generative - IE creates culture, creates a vibe, message, vision, that other skiers can tap into, but is strictly unique to their own company.



So when I say there is a lot of pie for the taking, I don't mean the market is lacking in ski brands. What it is lacking in however is non-sterile, non-corporate ski brands, brands that epitomize the scene. Brands that are actually in the scene, got their feet on the ground, are inspired by other skiers and other brands in the scene, and generate for the community from that place.



But then again, freeskiing is a very tough market to make it in. It is so niche so even with all that effort, from a financial perspective, there might not be that great of a return on your business - IE little money made, lots of time and money put in. Therefore you gotta have a lot of heart in the game to stay in it. That's why you see companies like Orage jumping ship or companies like Icelantic trying to appeal to Denver dads. Brands that cater to freesking alone are hard to sustain because the customer base is so small and only loyal to brands that are cool and rejective of the one's that aren't. I mean who buys the Ruroc storm troopers masks? Anyone here?
Jun 1 2020 3:33PM
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FruitBootPro
Posts: 3121 - Karma: 14,034
J_skisThanks yo! There's definitely is a bit of an alienating factor to putting rad art on skis, but since we don't sell our product in ski shops it's not nearly as important to us.

Soooo much of ski graphic design is dictated by the old school buyer in a ski shop. Most graphics (speaking from past experience running Line under K2) start off really rad and then get diluted to something black & simple by the end because that's what the shop wants. They're afraid that offering anything too edgy would push out the normal customer who comes in to buy skis at full price and always favor the "safe" option that nobody is going to love but definitely nobody won't like. It's less risky than doing something creative because creativity always has critics.

For everyone talking about @schmies too, he's a badass legend and the whole reason ski graphics actually saw such a cool revolution putting art tip to tail. We let him run wild on a graphic for our line this year, it's called Nocturnal Daydream and it's creepy as hell in the best way possible. Stoked to release this one


I really appreciate your explanation. It's sad and a bit weird to me that freeski brands are forced to appease non-freeskiers in order to stay afloat. Snowboarding was born as a revolution against the then-boring skiing status quo, and freeskiing was the revolution from skiers against the "lame" stigma of skiing that snowboarding created. Evidently those days are over though, and freeskiing is not riding solely on the wave of guys who want to differentiate them from "vanilla" skiing.

I guess the bottom line is that, while being edgier could increase youth interest in freeskiing, it's too risky and not really what freeskiing needs. Plus, there are a lot of young dudes getting into freeskiing nowadays anyway. Evidently we don't need to prove to the average normie that we're actually as rad as snowboarding because like I said, we are already an established community.

Hopefully someday we can embrace the skate aesthetic but who knows.
Jun 1 2020 3:38PM
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FruitBootPro
Posts: 3121 - Karma: 14,034
SEABURNsome skiers are cool and edgy, A LOT aren't. We've got more dentists, church groups, and PTA moms who ski. The DNA of skiing is way more "tight butthole"

Snowboarding & skateboarding have rebellion built into the culture. With one upset Karen & her lawyer able to fuck up a small ski company, I can understand why a company would tone down their graphics to keep sales smooth.

Small brands who do cater to us freestylers do a pretty damn good job imo. But freestyle is a shrinking segment of the sport, I can only see the smaller brands having the ability to keep a raw edge, and having it resonate with their audience in a positive way.


Why do companies like Armada, Line, Faction, Vishnu, and Surface have any incentive to market themselves to tourist skiers, despite that demographic being larger than the freeskiing demographic? They obviously will not be able to beat companies like Salomon, Head, Atomic, etc on that front. They make skis for a scene that is completely separate from tourist/traditional skiers, so why accommodate them at all?

Plus, I would argue that snowboarding is not as rebellious now either. There are tons of rad dads and tourist chicks who think snowboarding is cool, but snowboarding still has the same aesthetic as always.
Jun 1 2020 3:56PM
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J_Christoph
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FruitBootProI really appreciate your explanation. It's sad and a bit weird to me that freeski brands are forced to appease non-freeskiers in order stay afloat.

I didn’t really realize this until I started to notice that I didn’t see anyone under the age of 50 with J skis up at Park City. I understand what I’ve seen doesn’t represent all J skis owners, but it was interesting that I literally only saw older/less advanced skiers repping them. I mean, good on Jason for doing really well with the demographic that has the most money to spend.
Jun 1 2020 4:25PM
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123ski
Posts: 7374 - Karma: 1,415
Julius_SteezerFeel like what you basically want is the OG K2s (hellbents, obsetheds etc) to come back...


and I am 100% for that





had to lol at this - you think the hellbent and obsethed are OG?

you could rewind 5 years and see the Seth Pistol and Public Enemy

or go back even 5 years before that and see the Enemy and the AK Enemy
Jun 1 2020 5:32PM
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Krongos
Posts: 5214 - Karma: 47
Forgot to mention J. Their business model/marketing is innovative and badass.
Jun 1 2020 5:32PM
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BigPurpleSkiSuit
Posts: 9423 - Karma: 69,130
122 looks great, 112 and 102 are not my fav
J_Christoph^^Nothing beats the throwback K2 graphics! Love my Hellbents (lowkey always wished I had the orange ones though) and Pettitors. I loved K2’s style back then with Seth and Pettit and the rest of the rockers.

That being said, the Reckoners came out sooooo dope. I’m always torn between clean/simple and more creative and artistic.

Jun 1 2020 5:39PM
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SoggyOatmeal420
Posts: 296 - Karma: 1,527
I feel like moment does a good job with the line between 'clean' and more 'old school k2ish' styles. I totally agree that companies simply won't do as well trying to sell skis with those type if graphics on them sadly.
Jun 1 2020 6:25PM
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J_Christoph
Posts: 2519 - Karma: 8,755
BigPurpleSkiSuit122 looks great, 112 and 102 are not my fav

I completely agree. Joss always posts shots of the 112 and personally I can’t support the drooling face emoji (unless aimed at the actual performance of the ski)
Jun 1 2020 6:34PM
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Julius_Steezer
Posts: 776 - Karma: 4,546
123skihad to lol at this - you think the hellbent and obsethed are OG?

you could rewind 5 years and see the Seth Pistol and Public Enemy

or go back even 5 years before that and see the Enemy and the AK Enemy


Sorry grandad ;) I was riding a snowboard until about 2014 (on a capita funnily enough) so sadly I missed the golden era of wild graphics
Jun 1 2020 6:57PM
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spintricks
Posts: 102 - Karma: 227
First: As a person, whos job not far from different graphical design, I can say - capita's design is ugly, cheap and primitive, and it is designed for the appropriate target audience: primitive and newbie , hyped newbies. Dunno why do you admire it so much.


Second: when ski industry will face growth of same "capita-style" multiple brands, be sure - skiing is almost dead. It will mean that 60-90% of riders give a sh$t about skiing, good products and good design, they just want to go to ski resort, stand with pair of skis and make a picture for Instagram. That happened to snowboard ~10 years ago. Nowadays 80% of "snowboarders" are not interesting in snowboard culture, skills, style and sport, they just want to touch some "hype thing" and smear themselves with it.

Rejoice that freeski is still an "underground" cool thing. Because of it freesking attracts mostly potentially "advanced" kids.



Jun 1 2020 7:10PM
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WestieBogan
Posts: 50 - Karma: 87
Why not be your own brand, instead of wondering why other people aren't reading your mind and making exactly what you want? Spray your top sheets with primer, grab some Posca pens and away you go. Paint flaming skulls or fluffy ponies to your hearts content.
Jun 1 2020 7:38PM
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FruitBootPro
Posts: 3121 - Karma: 14,034
WestieBoganWhy not be your own brand, instead of wondering why other people aren't reading your mind and making exactly what you want? Spray your top sheets with primer, grab some Posca pens and away you go. Paint flaming skulls or fluffy ponies to your hearts content.


I'm actually working on logo/art/etc mockups for a conceptual brand but like, I'm just a kid, who knows what will come to fruition.
Jun 1 2020 9:47PM
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WestieBogan
Posts: 50 - Karma: 87
FruitBootProI'm actually working on logo/art/etc mockups for a conceptual brand but like, I'm just a kid, who knows what will come to fruition.


Sweet. The earlier you start the better. If you create your graphics in a printable format, maybe you could sell top sheets online via NS. They used to do something similar in the surf industry. Really big stickers of hula girls that you could stick onto your board. A lot of people do Posca or Sharpie art on their surfboards - I let my kids go mental on mine with Posca pens, and then I give them a couple of clear coats on top. It works with skis too.
Jun 1 2020 11:14PM
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J_skis
Posts: 1147 - Karma: 16,638
J_ChristophI didn’t really realize this until I started to notice that I didn’t see anyone under the age of 50 with J skis up at Park City. I understand what I’ve seen doesn’t represent all J skis owners, but it was interesting that I literally only saw older/less advanced skiers repping them. I mean, good on Jason for doing really well with the demographic that has the most money to spend.


That's actually super rad to hear! Our whole mission is for people to take skiing less seriously and to do it because it's fun, so if there are old dudes out there letting loose then all the power to them.

For reference, our demographic is (loosely) as follows:
Under 18: 15%
18-35: 50%
35-50: 20%
50+: 15%

A lot of those older people (say, in the 35+ category) are skiers who grew up skiing on LINE and know Jason from that rebellion. I can't tell you how many emails we get from people saying "I've had 5 pairs of LINES and they're my favorite skis ever. I just found out you're doing this company now, what ski would you recommend to replace x". The loyalty people have to Jason's products is crazy, similar to a surfer only going to one board shaper for their whole lives.

Also, if any marketing nerds want to get really deep on it, the Patagonia study of "dirtbags and dog walkers" was huge in helping us decide our positioning. It basically says if you build the best product for the highest performance and IGNORE the average consumer, then the average consumer will want it even more. Obviously it's not exactly what we do, but it's a cool inspiration.
Jun 2 2020 9:41AM
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FruitBootPro
Posts: 3121 - Karma: 14,034
J_skisThat's actually super rad to hear! Our whole mission is for people to take skiing less seriously and to do it because it's fun, so if there are old dudes out there letting loose then all the power to them.

For reference, our demographic is (loosely) as follows:
Under 18: 15%
18-35: 50%
35-50: 20%
50+: 15%

A lot of those older people (say, in the 35+ category) are skiers who grew up skiing on LINE and know Jason from that rebellion. I can't tell you how many emails we get from people saying "I've had 5 pairs of LINES and they're my favorite skis ever. I just found out you're doing this company now, what ski would you recommend to replace x". The loyalty people have to Jason's products is crazy, similar to a surfer only going to one board shaper for their whole lives.

Also, if any marketing nerds want to get really deep on it, the Patagonia study of "dirtbags and dog walkers" was huge in helping us decide our positioning. It basically says if you build the best product for the highest performance and IGNORE the average consumer, then the average consumer will want it even more. Obviously it's not exactly what we do, but it's a cool inspiration.


Holy shit, I didn't know that there were that many freeskiers over 35 years old. That's fucking rad. I guess if you think about it, it's the exact same as aggressive inline; most of the bladers nowadays are like 35+ and skated in the heyday of inline during the late 90s and 2000s, which is exactly when the freeskiing revolution was happening too. This being said, I'm not quite sure why these guys who experienced this revolution would shy away from/be turned off by more energetic marketing (I think graphics nowadays are fine tho, I keep saying this).

About the Patagonia study: In my opinion, if Patagonia doesn't want "normies" wearing their product, then they are not doing a good enough job at designing product that is solely interesting for the "dirtbags". Literally 90% of their product is shit that is not exclusively effective to dirtbags. Anyone from any demographic can appreciate a nice looking tee shirt or a well made fleece. How does the founder not see this? Why the fuck does he think that his relatively generic looking, comfortable clothing and warm wear should only be worn by outdoorsmen???

Conversely, freestyle ski companies do offer a product that is, as far as I understand, exclusively effective to the dedicated community of freeskiers. I doubt that the average piste-only tourist skier is going to want a Line Outline, Surface Daily, or even an Armada Tracer over something more effective for their skiing type like an Atomic Redster. A lot are going to rent anyway. I guess I sound like a broken record, but I don't understand why freeski companies don't market exclusively to the demographic that their skis are only effective for. Are they trying to get less ambitious skiers to buy their directional skis over normal piste skis for profit? (I can't blame them, if it keeps them afloat. Genuinely curious.)
Jun 2 2020 11:22AM
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BradFiAusNzCoCa
Posts: 7096 - Karma: 62,235
I didn’t see anywhere that it said Patagonia doesn’t want “normies” wearing their stuff. They are focusing on their core user/core values and the casual wearer was attracted to the product that comes out of it.

Also, in regards to the skis freeski companies make - not every consumer is that discerning. Do you know how many people go to rent and they rent twin tips or tracer 98s (etc.) because they think they look cool? More than you’d think.
FruitBootProHoly shit, I didn't know that there were that many freeskiers over 35 years old. That's fucking rad. I guess if you think about it, it's the exact same as aggressive inline; most of the bladers nowadays are like 35+ and skated in the heyday of inline during the late 90s and 2000s, which is exactly when the freeskiing revolution was happening too. This being said, I'm not quite sure why these guys who experienced this revolution would shy away from/be turned off by more energetic marketing (I think graphics nowadays are fine tho, I keep saying this).

About the Patagonia study: In my opinion, if Patagonia doesn't want "normies" wearing their product, then they are not doing a good enough job at designing product that is solely interesting for the "dirtbags". Literally 90% of their product is shit that is not exclusively effective to dirtbags. Anyone from any demographic can appreciate a nice looking tee shirt or a well made fleece. How does the founder not see this? Why the fuck does he think that his relatively generic looking, comfortable clothing and warm wear should only be worn by outdoorsmen???

Conversely, freestyle ski companies do offer a product that is, as far as I understand, exclusively effective to the dedicated community of freeskiers. I doubt that the average piste-only tourist skier is going to want a Line Outline, Surface Daily, or even an Armada Tracer over something more effective for their skiing type like an Atomic Redster. A lot are going to rent anyway. I guess I sound like a broken record, but I don't understand why freeski companies don't market exclusively to the demographic that their skis are only effective for. Are they trying to get less ambitious skiers to buy their directional skis over normal piste skis for profit? (I can't blame them, if it keeps them afloat. Genuinely curious.)
Jun 2 2020 4:36PM
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J_skis
Posts: 1147 - Karma: 16,638
FruitBootProHoly shit, I didn't know that there were that many freeskiers over 35 years old. That's fucking rad. I guess if you think about it, it's the exact same as aggressive inline; most of the bladers nowadays are like 35+ and skated in the heyday of inline during the late 90s and 2000s, which is exactly when the freeskiing revolution was happening too. This being said, I'm not quite sure why these guys who experienced this revolution would shy away from/be turned off by more energetic marketing (I think graphics nowadays are fine tho, I keep saying this).

About the Patagonia study: In my opinion, if Patagonia doesn't want "normies" wearing their product, then they are not doing a good enough job at designing product that is solely interesting for the "dirtbags". Literally 90% of their product is shit that is not exclusively effective to dirtbags. Anyone from any demographic can appreciate a nice looking tee shirt or a well made fleece. How does the founder not see this? Why the fuck does he think that his relatively generic looking, comfortable clothing and warm wear should only be worn by outdoorsmen???

Conversely, freestyle ski companies do offer a product that is, as far as I understand, exclusively effective to the dedicated community of freeskiers. I doubt that the average piste-only tourist skier is going to want a Line Outline, Surface Daily, or even an Armada Tracer over something more effective for their skiing type like an Atomic Redster. A lot are going to rent anyway. I guess I sound like a broken record, but I don't understand why freeski companies don't market exclusively to the demographic that their skis are only effective for. Are they trying to get less ambitious skiers to buy their directional skis over normal piste skis for profit? (I can't blame them, if it keeps them afloat. Genuinely curious.)


It may come down to how broadly you define "freeskiing" (i.e. is this purely park, does skiing like the FWT count, what if someone skis all-mtn with a freestyle look) but even if you include every aspect that's remotely related to freestyle skiing it's still an incredibly small market. Put it this way... skiing is a sport for able-bodied people, with money, who live in cold climates, near mountains, where it snows, and it can only be done for 1/3 of the year. When you look at the entire ski industry as a whole it's incredibly small, and then dividing that into subsects such as park, powder, all-mtn, racing divides that even further. If you want to run a business that can only sell products for 4 months of the year you need to be able to appeal to a pretty wide range of people to make that happen.

Also, even as a freeski oriented company making other styles of skis is incredibly fun and satisfying and allows the designer to put their own personality into it. Our powder skis feel nothing like a K2 powder ski because they have that freeski influence to them. It gives someone like you or I who skis park the ability to have a similar playful feeling when ripping pow, and that's really rad.

As far as selling directional skis to a directional skier... that's kinda the point! If people fuck with your brand image and what you stand for, you should have a product for them to represent you (so long as it's not too far off with what you normally do). I think the Line Blade is a good example of this. There are tons of people who have skied Lines for 20+ years that are now older and want a ski that rips on groomers, so Line made one for them with tons of personality in it. It's all about creating products that fit within your brand identity while attempting to grab market share in order to 1) stay afloat and 2) hopefully grow and have the ability to keep reinvesting in skiing.

Skiing is such a passion-driven business that if you showed our books to someone selling a more generic product they'd laugh at us, but we do it because we love it and we care about it. Nobody makes a ton of money so if you have the ability to make a new product that hits a larger market, and do it really really well, then you should go after it.
Jun 2 2020 5:04PM
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ThunderChicken
Posts: 95 - Karma: 387
This is a really interesting thread. I think there is something to be said for the stickers/posters aspect of marketing as well. I have never touched a snowboard, but have 2 capita snowboard posters in my room just because they were free at a local shop and looked auesome. If more ski brands had cool looking or eye popping posters or stickers that were easily acssesible to the masses, it might help sell or promote a ski brands aesthetic or at least get people talking about it and acting as a loss leader of sorts. I don't know much about business or marketing, but from the couple shops I have been to I tend to see more snowboard material of this sort then skiing stuff.
Jun 2 2020 5:30PM
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Jackyl
Posts: 5 - Karma: 23
This whole thread has been great to read. In terms of the original sentiment I really think there are brands out there still doing that energy, its just the major players cater to the 'normal' consumer.

I knows its already been mentioned, but Moment still has my favorite graphic of all time on some Vice's
Jun 2 2020 6:31PM
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J_Christoph
Posts: 2519 - Karma: 8,755
JackylI knows its already been mentioned, but Moment still has my favorite graphic of all time on some Vice's

loved this graphic! I need this remastered on a bigger pair of skis.
Jun 2 2020 7:14PM
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Jackyl
Posts: 5 - Karma: 23
J_Christophloved this graphic! I need this remastered on a bigger pair of skis.


Turns out you can.

I thought the same, and when I asked their factory about it, you can do a custom order and they can use old graphics on whatever model. Granted it will cost ya but still, its been tempting me ever since.
Jun 2 2020 8:10PM
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