Why does nobody seem to care about 4frnt anymore

Im a big time 4FRNT fan and ride both their VCT and CRJs. I think the problem is a lot of younger skiers dont know the heritage of the company and how they helped pioneer the athlete design pro-model ski. They almost went out of business last year and Jason Leventhal bought them which caused some concerns as well.

At the end of the day, I think they failed in the Marketing department. They have some pretty sweet athlete edits out on youtube but I feel like they are never promoted. We see Faction and On3P team edits here but never 4FRNT. They have some really good skis but they just cant generate the buzz to make people interested. I know they are trying to grow their athlete team but they really need to step up their content to make it work. It looks like they are still selling skis though so who knows.

Wutang is for the children and 4frnt is for the boomers.

I just think the brand’s target audience grew up. And let’s be honest, is there a difference between 4frnt and Jskis? I almost feel like 4frnt is trying to target the older demographic that use to buy jskis.

The NS interview with JLev seems to be as good an explanation as any with regards to the different direction they're trying to take: https://www.newschoolers.com/news/read/What-4FRNT

I definitely still see people talking about the Hojis and the Ravens. I think maybe it's the fact that 4FRNT is no longer carried in shops that has them falling off the general population's radar. Obviously cutting out the middle man and selling direct to the consumer has a lot of advantages, but it's easier to get excited about something that you see in the window of the shop every time you walk past, and maybe have wandered in and hand-flexed it a few times and chatted with the shop guy about.

I think alot of their skis (raven, hoji, devastator, etc) were really revolutionary when they came out, especially coming from an indie ski brand, but besides making gradual improvements, they haven't done anything revolutionary since then. Alot of their skis still seem to be popular with the tgr crowd. Now that j owns them, theres not really an incentive to market towards the freestyle demographic because thats what he has j skis for.

ghoti_hookWutang is for the children and 4frnt is for the boomers.

I just think the brand’s target audience grew up. And let’s be honest, is there a difference between 4frnt and Jskis? I almost feel like 4frnt is trying to target the older demographic that use to buy jskis.

How the fuck is 4frnt of all companies for boomers...
Boomer skis are generally things like Soul 7s and QSTs. Or race/gs skis. I don't understand how 4frnt is for boomers compared to other ski companies that offer freestyle/park skis, midfat twintips, and freeride skis.

FruitBootProHow the fuck is 4frnt of all companies for boomers...
Boomer skis are generally things like Soul 7s and QSTs. Or race/gs skis. I don't understand how 4frnt is for boomers compared to other ski companies that offer freestyle/park skis, midfat twintips, and freeride skis.

Were you around 15 years ago when 4frnt was literally at the forefront? The best movies had that logo popping up in the credits. Look at the kids at your park. Are they riding 4frnts? Their target audience isn’t the park rat anymore.
Reference: I am a boomer and still using my switchblades.

FruitBootProHow the fuck is 4frnt of all companies for boomers...
Boomer skis are generally things like Soul 7s and QSTs. Or race/gs skis. I don't understand how 4frnt is for boomers compared to other ski companies that offer freestyle/park skis, midfat twintips, and freeride skis.

'Boomer' is a term for people in their 30s now supposedly. In that sense it is true, they are an older brand and have a following of those who grew up with them skiing. If you pull up some older random threads in NS from 2009 or so you will see a lot of people with 4FRNT logos in the pic etc. I still rock my 2007 VCTs and they are a fun stiff ski to bomb down groomers and any time the snow is choppy.

One of the issues too is the business model they had is now the mainstream so they dont stand out at much. They were literally one of the first brands to give Athletes almost complete control over their ski. (The ski names are often the initials of the athlete: STL- Steele Spence, VCT- Vincent Dorian, MSP- Matt Sterbenz, CRJ- CR Johnson, HOJI- Eric Hjorleifson etc) Nowadays we have a ton of indy ski companies that have pro models so its not the revolutionary idea it used to be.

ghoti_hookWere you around 15 years ago when 4frnt was literally at the forefront? The best movies had that logo popping up in the credits. Look at the kids at your park. Are they riding 4frnts? Their target audience isn’t the park rat anymore.
Reference: I am a boomer and still using my switchblades.

Pretty much this. For example here is Vincent Dorion rocking his VCT back in Ski Porn from 2006:


https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/964296/Vinnie-Dorion-Brings-New-Freestyle-Skiing-To-The-Backcountry-in--Ski-Porn-
To the OP, @4FRNT has a rep that is active sometimes on the site. Maybe they can give some insight on whats coming up for 2020 etc

brogoldenhairI think alot of their skis (raven, hoji, devastator, etc) were really revolutionary when they came out, especially coming from an indie ski brand, but besides making gradual improvements, they haven't done anything revolutionary since then. Alot of their skis still seem to be popular with the tgr crowd. Now that j owns them, theres not really an incentive to market towards the freestyle demographic because thats what he has j skis for.

this, it seems like there hasn't been anything big or new with them since they got bought

**This post was edited on May 14th 2020 at 9:46:48am

I only own one pair of 4FRNTS and have had no issues with durability, but I've for sure seen some complaints here and on TGR about build quality and price compared to other brands' comparable build quality and price. I also think they simply don't market a ton either and seems like their most well known skis (Hoji annd Raven I'd assume) aren't targeted towards the freestyle demographic as much as the Inthanye and Devastator, which I hear about less besides newschoolers and blister

Idgaf about how relevant they are. I own a pair of inthaynes and they fucking RAIL. What a great ski. Just wish they were a little more beefier.

The funny thing is they put out some dope edits but nobody watches them...


https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/964314/FUNKYI mean this vid only racked up 1,600 views since November 2019.

From my understanding being somewhat involved with a local shop...

4FRNT for the past number of years has had really weird skis at a price that wasn't competitive enough. Long story short, the skis they offered wern't really in direct competition with their competitors as far as rocker, waist, etc. People love familiarity, and with 4FRNT off doing their own thing, I think people gravitated towards some more "familiar" or compelling alternatives (i.e. e dollo, magnus 90, ARV 96, poacher, etc). That being said, I've always loved 4FRNT, Matt Sterbenz and the core audience that they DO appeal to.

SuspiciousFishIm a big time 4FRNT fan and ride both their VCT and CRJs. I think the problem is a lot of younger skiers dont know the heritage of the company and how they helped pioneer the athlete design pro-model ski. They almost went out of business last year and Jason Leventhal bought them which caused some concerns as well.

At the end of the day, I think they failed in the Marketing department. They have some pretty sweet athlete edits out on youtube but I feel like they are never promoted. We see Faction and On3P team edits here but never 4FRNT. They have some really good skis but they just cant generate the buzz to make people interested. I know they are trying to grow their athlete team but they really need to step up their content to make it work. It looks like they are still selling skis though so who knows.

You can have the best product of be the best at something and if you can't market yourself or your item its hard to grow and generate some hype I totally agree I had been thinking the same.

I think a lot of people would still be stoked on the devastator despite the lack of change. I'm not sure what you're looking for in terms of innovation but that ski works, and I hope they keep producing it. If I could only have one ski to do it all, the devastator would be it, hands down. Longer side cut with full rocker makes for a predictable ski that doesn't get twitchy but can still smear around and be playful. It can ski fast without getting deflected (unless it's bulletproof conditions) but isn't really that demanding. I really think it might be one of the best all around skis on the market. Don't sleep on it just because it's been around for a while.

I've never ridden the inthaynes, but thayne rides for them and in my opinion is still one of the best skiers in the world and his pro model is supposedly beefy and playful.

DaysToComeI think a lot of people would still be stoked on the devastator despite the lack of change. I'm not sure what you're looking for in terms of innovation but that ski works, and I hope they keep producing it. If I could only have one ski to do it all, the devastator would be it, hands down. Longer side cut with full rocker makes for a predictable ski that doesn't get twitchy but can still smear around and be playful. It can ski fast without getting deflected (unless it's bulletproof conditions) but isn't really that demanding. I really think it might be one of the best all around skis on the market. Don't sleep on it just because it's been around for a while.

Devys are getting multi radius sidecut next season with is actually a really important change, we'll see if it's better or not than Reflect Tech sidecut

SchoessFrom my understanding being somewhat involved with a local shop...

4FRNT for the past number of years has had really weird skis at a price that wasn't competitive enough. Long story short, the skis they offered wern't really in direct competition with their competitors as far as rocker, waist, etc. People love familiarity, and with 4FRNT off doing their own thing, I think people gravitated towards some more "familiar" or compelling alternatives (i.e. e dollo, magnus 90, ARV 96, poacher, etc). That being said, I've always loved 4FRNT, Matt Sterbenz and the core audience that they DO appeal to.

The MSP 107 looks like a solid all mountain ski. I think its marketed as almost too "Traditional" for younger skiers and the topsheets are pretty conservative. The Hoji series topsheets are so sick though.

4frnt is the dank in the west
CRJ Hoji YLE
newschool AF

because theyre boring skis from a boring company. once they dropped cal carson it was already over

they dropped all their riders and stopped making park skis for the most part. I mean what do you expect

OregonDead4frnt is the dank in the west
CRJ Hoji YLE
newschool AF

yle is on rmu now I believe

I mean it's obvious isn't it?

zero marketing = zero exposure.

That's devastating news

FruitBootProDevys are getting multi radius sidecut next season with is actually a really important change, we'll see if it's better or not than Reflect Tech sidecut

I got MSP99's this year, they're dope.

I knew 4frnt was a ski brand but I had never seen their skis in person or in social media/video parts. Just checked out their website and was honestly let down. They have a few ski models in various widths with uninspired and boring graphics. I could get two pairs of like k2s or something for the price of one pair of theirs. Better yet I could just.....


buy ON3Ps.

armchair_skierI knew 4frnt was a ski brand but I had never seen their skis in person or in social media/video parts. Just checked out their website and was honestly let down. They have a few ski models in various widths with uninspired and boring graphics. I could get two pairs of like k2s or something for the price of one pair of theirs. Better yet I could just.....


buy ON3Ps.

Few things.

1.) The renegade/dev/hoji graphics fuckin' slap
2.) On3p's are great, but 4frnt has very unique shapes you can't really find anywhere else
3.) Sterbenz's stash is a thing. 186 vandals for $299 rn.

From the look of this thread NS should watch more Hoji and Thayne edits

Also Stinius S. is the new ripper

**This post was edited on May 13th 2020 at 1:36:48pm

my roommate is really into them. he's got like 5 pairs or so. I think they've got pretty dedicated core customers and then of course some marketing as well. In fact I saw a pretty cool ad from them showing how they build the skis in the factory. nothing wrong with 4frnt

OregonDeadFrom the look of this thread NS should watch more Hoji and Thayne edits

Also Stinius S. is the new ripper

**This post was edited on May 13th 2020 at 1:36:48pm

hoji is actually nuts on skis, and is also a genius when talking about gear

The EHP in a 186 is still my all-time favorite ski.

I think 4frnt has more of a following over on TGR. They are probably more focused on that crowd.

There is some truth to the notion that there are LOTS of indy companies now. For those of us who are older, we remember when Line came around, then 4frnt and Armada. If you were to look at a Powder buyer's guide from 2000 you would be amazed at how few companies there were compared to now.

I actually skied an MSP prototype back in the 02/03 season. I was living in Tahoe and I knew Joe, one of the founders.

4frnt and Armada REALLY did a ton for skiing. The fact that they were able to succeed fundamentally changed the industry. I don't think any of the guys at the small brands are getting ultra-wealthy, they don't make skis for rental shops or carving skis, but back when I was in my teens I don't think anyone thought that a company like this could succeed. In the custom ski department Igneous deserves lots of credit too.

BiffbarfFew things.

1.) The renegade/dev/hoji graphics fuckin' slap
2.) On3p's are great, but 4frnt has very unique shapes you can't really find anywhere else
3.) Sterbenz's stash is a thing. 186 vandals for $299 rn.

The Hoji Graphics are so dope this year. I do miss their old style though. Here is their 2009-2010 catalog. Some crazy topsheets for sure although I dont like the VCT graphics that year, the older green ones were better IMO.


https://issuu.com/devinsoisson/docs/0910_4f_catalog_low

lack of getting their shit into stores I guess.

rarely ever do I see anyone with a pair of 4frnt skis, and when I do, they are old as shit.

in canada at least, they have a nearly zero presence in ski shops,and it reflects on the ski hills. they are a k2 brand no? seems like a problem that could be solved by a few people doing a better job at their job.

I think Jlev is running everything through online since you need to sell fewer skis to be profitable, like the difference between is tens of thousands and 6000 selling direct vs with reps in stores

GORILLAWALLACElack of getting their shit into stores I guess.

rarely ever do I see anyone with a pair of 4frnt skis, and when I do, they are old as shit.

in canada at least, they have a nearly zero presence in ski shops,and it reflects on the ski hills. they are a k2 brand no? seems like a problem that could be solved by a few people doing a better job at their job.

They are direct to consumer so yeah you won't see them in stores. They aren't a K2 brand either.

GORILLAWALLACElack of getting their shit into stores I guess.

rarely ever do I see anyone with a pair of 4frnt skis, and when I do, they are old as shit.

in canada at least, they have a nearly zero presence in ski shops,and it reflects on the ski hills. they are a k2 brand no? seems like a problem that could be solved by a few people doing a better job at their job.

Dude they're an indy brand and made in canada lol

BiffbarfDude they're an indy brand and made in canada lol

Wrong. They do make White Room skis themselves in the US. But the rest of their skis are made by Elan at their European factory (as a number of brands have been over the years).

paige.Wrong. They do make White Room skis themselves in the US. But the rest of their skis are made by Elan at their European factory (as a number of brands have been over the years).

Bruh https://4frnt.com/blogs/blog/ski-factory

BiffbarfBruh https://4frnt.com/blogs/blog/ski-factory

U got him

Half of you guys are fucking space cadets. 4FRNT almost went out of business and had to drop a few great skiers like David Wise, Kai Peterson and Wiley Miller, which was unfortunate because they each had really cool pro models. But you still see a lot of Hojis, Ravens, Renegades and Inthaynes out west. And those of you saying they make "boring" skis are seriously not appreciating how innovative the pintail, flat camber design was that Hoji developed for the original Renegade. He's a mastermind on the same level as Eric Pollard.

Hey NS! First off stoked to hear that so many of you got our backs and are still hyped on what we're doing. There have been a
number of major changes over here at 4FRNT the past few years, obviously the biggest being our new Direct to Consumer model. Unfortunately it is extremely hard to compete with the big dogs in the industry without selling a sh*# ton of skis, but this new business model actually saved the brand and brought us back to life. With all these major changes going down we have tried our best to create and provide as much stoke around the brand. No, we aren't making full length flicks any more but this past winter especially we have been doing our best to crank out a bunch of really rad content with our Team of shredders.

We appreciate big time the constructive criticism, as the opinions of NS are actually some of the realest brand perspectives you can get in the ski world. If you're all saying we are dropping the ball on marketing and building stoke on the brand, chances are that is the case and it needs to be focused on.

If any of you have some time and could answer these couple questions it would be HUGE from a marketing perspective-
1) What is it that 4FRNT is lacking from your view?
2) What would you want to see us do more of?
3) Do we offer a ski that you are stoked to ski?
4) What are we missing from our lineup that we need to add?

🍻🍻🍻

4FRNTHey NS! First off stoked to hear that so many of you got our backs and are still hyped on what we're doing. There have been a
number of major changes over here at 4FRNT the past few years, obviously the biggest being our new Direct to Consumer model. Unfortunately it is extremely hard to compete with the big dogs in the industry without selling a sh*# ton of skis, but this new business model actually saved the brand and brought us back to life. With all these major changes going down we have tried our best to create and provide as much stoke around the brand. No, we aren't making full length flicks any more but this past winter especially we have been doing our best to crank out a bunch of really rad content with our Team of shredders.

We appreciate big time the constructive criticism, as the opinions of NS are actually some of the realest brand perspectives you can get in the ski world. If you're all saying we are dropping the ball on marketing and building stoke on the brand, chances are that is the case and it needs to be focused on.

If any of you have some time and could answer these couple questions it would be HUGE from a marketing perspective-
1) What is it that 4FRNT is lacking from your view?
2) What would you want to see us do more of?
3) Do we offer a ski that you are stoked to ski?
4) What are we missing from our lineup that we need to add?

🍻🍻🍻

This is how all brands should take criticism, good work 4frnt. I think it would be cool and could also help marketing if you guys sponsored more events like rail jams or something, I know thats probably not cheap but it could definitely get you some exposure and into the minds of younger skiers/ their parents who come watch.

According to the larger skiing demographic, being the r/skiing group, which is the majority of skiers, 4frnt, line and liberty are "Just new companies that don't make high-quality skis. They are just skis for people on a budget". As if those brands haven't been around for almost 20 years or more making some darn good skis.

BiffbarfDude they're an indy brand and made in canada lol

if they're made in canada and nobody has them, it's because someone is doing a bad job. that is probably even worse lol. there are lots of indy brands that do just fine direct to consumer and obviously this isn't one of them.

GORILLAWALLACEif they're made in canada and nobody has them, it's because someone is doing a bad job. that is probably even worse lol. there are lots of indy brands that do just fine direct to consumer and obviously this isn't one of them.

Idk how successful they are, but I assume you're on the east coast where 4frnt skis dont fit the primary ski demographic (pow). I see plenty of them in CO and have a hard time believing there's none in BC/alberta

4FRNT1) What is it that 4FRNT is lacking from your view?
2) What would you want to see us do more of?
3) Do we offer a ski that you are stoked to ski?
4) What are we missing from our lineup that we need to add?

🍻🍻🍻

3) I fucking love my Kye 120s
4) Cambered Hoji

Skibumsmith3) I fucking love my Kye 120s
4) Cambered Hoji

4)say what? It would not be a Hoji lMO. Also they made a KYE like that AKA the COL. My buddy likes his and I see them used sometimes. Zero camber is one of my favorite things about my Hojis though. Different flavors for different people though

Look, I'm a slut for 4frnt. HOJIs are my favorite ski, and I've had every iteration of their park skis., That dais, once they sold and moved from ski shops to online I lost interest. That disconnect was a big role in me expanding into other brands, I worked in a shop for 5 years and actually getting to know the warranty department, the owners, and reps were huge. The second the warranty department, guys I spoke with frequently were gone, I lost interest. Our shop was given the option to be one of the few with physical inventory but wouldn't flip a profit. We caouldn't compete with online pricing.

IDK they're team has always been stacked and I LOVE their skis but cannot justify buying another since the brand no longer feels like part of the industry.

Skibumsmith3) I fucking love my Kye 120s
4) Cambered Hoji

Camber the hoji and I'll never touch that ski again. Its full rocker is what MAKES the ski.

4FRNTHey NS! First off stoked to hear that so many of you got our backs and are still hyped on what we're doing. There have been a
number of major changes over here at 4FRNT the past few years, obviously the biggest being our new Direct to Consumer model. Unfortunately it is extremely hard to compete with the big dogs in the industry without selling a sh*# ton of skis, but this new business model actually saved the brand and brought us back to life. With all these major changes going down we have tried our best to create and provide as much stoke around the brand. No, we aren't making full length flicks any more but this past winter especially we have been doing our best to crank out a bunch of really rad content with our Team of shredders.

We appreciate big time the constructive criticism, as the opinions of NS are actually some of the realest brand perspectives you can get in the ski world. If you're all saying we are dropping the ball on marketing and building stoke on the brand, chances are that is the case and it needs to be focused on.

If any of you have some time and could answer these couple questions it would be HUGE from a marketing perspective-
1) What is it that 4FRNT is lacking from your view?
2) What would you want to see us do more of?
3) Do we offer a ski that you are stoked to ski?
4) What are we missing from our lineup that we need to add?

🍻🍻🍻

1. Team edits that have more marketability. Your videos have a rawness to them which is cool but its not as engaging as say the Faction edits. Also, showcase your riders even if they are young and up and coming. There is a lot of buzz about new athletes right now so it would be cool to see them showcased. Even TWOOWT, an obscure brand from Russia got some decent traction here for their TWOOWT Laps edits.

Also do more demos. Direct is cool and you have returns but there is something about walking up to your tent at a mountain and seeing the skis and getting to ride them. Maybe do like a $10 to 20 demo and you get your money put toward the model if you buy it or something. I actually met CR Johnson back in the day at a 4FRNT tent at CU Boulder and that is what made me buy the CRJ when it released some years later. Having people talk to your reps can really get the stoke up in a way digital marketing cant.

2. Also focus on your heritage. Your history page is really cool in in some ways the history of 4FRNT is part of the history of skiing since 2002. (The problem is I cant even find it from your home page.) Maybe get a video together of old clips of all your team riders through the years. Us old guys love nostalgia and the newer kids here are down to see how skiing has evolved. Maybe talk about how your athlete inspired technology has changed. I mean, look at your old VCTs which were planky traditional camber bombers to the camber and early rise tip/tail and reverse sidecut of the CRJ to the new full rocker Devastator. Hoji's skis alone could make a video. You guys have that heritage that other "indy" brands cant bring so you should play it up.

Here is a cool idea which plays against what Jason is doing with J skis with multiple top sheets. Have options for "Heritage" topsheets from different times in your past. The MSP is pretty traditional right now but maybe have options like the 09 colorful sky and tram tower. Those are sick and a lot of those old topsheets will resonate more with the younger riders while the older crowd can have the more conservative option. You guys had some pretty wild topsheets in the past which actually have a style that is popular right now.

Also bring back some apparel from your older brand style that had more edge to it like the cursive and overspray logos. A lot of companies are doing throwback styles and the recent Dumont edit really showed how skiing wants to go back to that culture skiing had back in 09. Especially the cursive logo, I had a sick longsleeve with it that I literally wore until it fell apart and have been bummed since. Not to hate but your new block logo stuff is pretty forgettable.


3. My next pair of skis will probably be your MSP 99 or 107. Need something for those groomer bombing or crusty days.


4. BRING BACK THE CRJ. (Edit- Got the wrong Athlete, Kye left 4FRNT not Thayne) The ski already has kind of a cult following. Also, maybe the EHP too. I think your lineup needs a stiff big mountain bomber that the EHP was. The perception right now is the MHP is for older people who ski groomers, Vandal for Park but not really showcased, the Hoji series is just for touring, the Devastator for jibbing but not everyone is down on full rocker for a resort ski, and the Inthayne is a pow jib tool.

**This post was edited on May 14th 2020 at 5:46:29pm