Where do you all stand with regards to the “wax vs no wax” debate?

Once you've scrapped so much base material that only the edges touch the snow because your base is concave, you don't need to wax anymore

I never wax or scrape. Might get a base grind early in the season once.

Waxing definitely helps my skis go faster

HalloweenpencilsWaxing definitely helps my skis go faster

I feel the same. Theres like a war going on though between swix and this guy kuzmin tho. Its pretty interesting at least.

Interesting take by that guy but I'm gonna have to disagree. There is definitely a difference after I wax. But I do think that after a certain point of not waxing, you're not gonna go any slower. I have a friend who hasn't waxed in 3 seasons and I end up as slow as him after like 10 days on snow without waxing so after that point you're not doing your skis a disservice by not waxing.

Sintered plastic = base material has pores = wax is necessary
extruded plastic = no pores = wax is just for filling scratches

No.QuarterSintered plastic = base material has pores = wax is necessary
extruded plastic = no pores = wax is just for filling scratches

From what ive read it seems that the wax can only penetrate a little bit into the outer later of the sintered base, where there is kind of a rough terrain for the wax to fill in.

im still reading about it and its kind of crazy for it to be 2020 and there still isnt much agreement on this issue, especially in the cross country sphere where glide is everything.



edit; ive been reading some more of the debate and it seems in recent years the tide has moved back towards the waxing-is-better point of view. I read that this anti waxing guy kuzmin apparently admitted that waxing is at least temporarily faster, which he refuted in his original thesis claim.

**This post was edited on Apr 16th 2020 at 9:14:36am

@DominatorJacques whats your opinion on this

I just think of when we get new snowfall. If my skis aren't adequately waxed I'm sticking, not moving, nada. Good way to ruin a day.

pinkcamo1000@DominatorJacques whats your opinion on this

I steel scrape bases quite a bit. Good for removing bad dried up base and to flatten a convex condition.
I have a video about doing that.
The bases need wax. No wax is not good.




https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/781970/How-To-Renew-A-Sintered-Base-Ski-and-Fix-Base-Burn

I always tune my skis because I feel that they preform better. From what I know, not waxing your skis for a long period of time can “burn” your bases making them slower and not last as long. It doesn’t take long and I relatively cheap in comparison to skis too.

Didn't somebody SEM some base material and prove that it's not a porous structure? They wrote a paper about that and how wax works, maybe for their phd or something?

Either way wax obviously feels better than no wax, and is most definitely faster.

DrZoidbergDidn't somebody SEM some base material and prove that it's not a porous structure? They wrote a paper about that and how wax works, maybe for their phd or something?

Either way wax obviously feels better than no wax, and is most definitely faster.

Yeah, its authored by kuzmin, the guy im referring to in my op. He said bases have no pores, which some people have refuted. But even if the bases of sintered skis dont have pores, they still have a mountainous/nooks and crannies surface that can hold wax in the valleys and cracks. I read somewhere that lower molecular weight polyethylene has pores while higher mol weight polyethylene has no pores, which in itself flies in the face of kuzmins belief that there are no pores in sintered PE



i really cant believd there is this much disagreement in the waxing industry.

At the bottom level, i think the waxing is good camp will win, bc everybody has busted out their skis after a fresh wax and felt like they were the puck on an air hockey table where its floating on a cushing of air. Everybody knows the feeling. Sharp edges, frictionless gliding.

feels good man.

**This post was edited on Apr 27th 2020 at 4:43:23am

A sintered base has amorphous and crystalline regions.
An average sinter may be in the 30% amorphous region, where a high-end race base may be as high as 50%.
It is in these amorphous regions that wax can penetrate.
The base does not have "pores". Think of them like a piece of paper. A good base would be like blotter paper, or a paper towel. Wax goes in between the fibers.
Although the actual penetration may only be a few mils deep, it can make a huge difference.
With the advent of fluoros being banned in FIS and some other racing now, the top wax chemist have been forced to come up with new solutions to address wet friction. This has been done by creating new polymers that are extremely hydrophobic.
The leaders in this new technology are makers such as Toko and Dominator.
The testing is proving to be as good as, or even better than fluoro waxes in terms of hydrophobicity.
Dominator has two new wax lines.
FFC (Fluoro Free Competition) It is a very simple system with only a few choices. I have tested and it works very well.
The other more advanced line is Elite. I have not tested yet, but Thanos told me he would send me some next season once it is in full production, and that he was "beyond stoked" with the performance of the Elite line in comparison to fluoro waxes.

Wax hardness choice is always the deal. A wax too soft for the snow temps. will not be fast.
A wax too hard for the snow temps. will be slower due to harder waxes having a higher internal friction.
A wax without an anti-static component will always be slower due to electrostatic friction.
In wet snow a wax that addresses wet friction is needed and for wet snow and the structure of the base plays a huge role always be it dry or wet snow. Less structure for dry, and more structure for wet.

Leaving wax on the surface of a base will always be slower too, so it is paramount to always scrape and brush the bases well after the proper cooling time at room temps. for the given wax hardness. Hard waxes cool quicker and soft waxes require much more time.
Cooling wax in the cold will set up the wax molecules in an unorganized manner, and that will increase internal friction, so always cool at room temp.

Could go on for a long time here, but that's enough for now.
Wax well boys and girls!

Waxing and tuning make a difference especially for the various extremes in snow condition like wet snow or man made snow.

That said it's literally a dark art on things like the WC circuit. It really isn't a situation where they use a certain off the shelf product for a certain condition -- there's all kinds of amalgamation of various compounds that are used and techs tend to not share their various tricks. If you ever find one of these folks and they are willing to tune for you - do it if it doesn't cost an arm and a leg - it's an experience.

That said, I think tuned edges make the biggest difference for me (even for west coast skiing and regardless if trees, moguls, whatever I want knife sharp edges - my park rail days are long over).

For most people, I'd say to wax skis constantly is not necessary and over done. If you are doing some some specific disciplines competitively and have a very strange snow condition it'll make a difference worth addressing.

The question is for the standard putz around average condition day is it worth the cost to have it done? No, if you are doing it yourself is it worth the effort? - eh not really, maybe once every 5-10 ski days.

I actually have 7 pairs of skis that need to be redone and even with the 'rona I can't get myself excited to tune them. Waxing, even hot waxing, is easy and no biggie. Scraping is easy too BUT it just makes a mess if you care about that kinda thing.

Repairing bases on the other hand is utterly horrible and a giant pain. I just flat out skip that and just let that get worked out once in a while with a shop tune.

Wish I was better in edge tuning though! I mess mine up on trees and rocks a lot. The big Wintersteiger machines are amazing and really I don't think can be duplicate by hand - but hardly affordable unless you know a guy -- I'd love to tune edges every 2-3 days if I could with one of those machines. I have a SkiVisions Ski Sharp and other tools but can never get what I want out of them.