Would raising the minimum wage for ski resort employees to 15/hr reduce the suicide rate?

Absolutely wages should be raised. Huge companies like vail make billions and pay their workers low wages that they take back through employee housing costs and parking tickets. It’s hard to survive in resort towns with what the employees make especially if you don’t have regular hours like an instructor

No

There are many reasons to support increasing wages but this is not one of them, sorry not sorry.

SnaketheparkAbsolutely wages should be raised. Huge companies like vail make billions and pay their workers low wages that they take back through employee housing costs and parking tickets. It’s hard to survive in resort towns with what the employees make especially if you don’t have regular hours like an instructor

Corporate overlords amirite??

DolanReloadedI feel like alot of the workers at ski resorts get into states of depression (often leading to suicide) partially because they dont really earn enough to have any savings. I think instead of hiring south americans and sending us dollars to foreign countries resorts should get a tax break from the government for hiring locals and US citizens—money they could use to bump resort employees base pay up to 15/hr. Even better, the government officials should prove they have an iq above 60 and decriminalize and tax all drugs, so the gov can send shitloads of money to the resorts to also help them afford a 15$ min wage for their employees.

its pretty fucking depressing that ski bums have to live like, really, total fucking bums. You can make more working for fucking walmart and thats bullshit.

Ok hear me out... child labour

Its actually extremely reasonable because of the finite duration of employment.

A ski hill knows that April-November they only have to pay these folks ZERO.

Every liftie still has 8/9 other months of the year to navigate. Why break them those 3/4 they work. Couple bucks an hour will be the difference if they return next year.

Never worked at a resort so can’t say firsthand but I have a buddy who worked at Jackson the last two seasons and he pays pretty much half of his wages right back for a shitty-ish place to live

MinggNo

There are many reasons to support increasing wages but this is not one of them, sorry not sorry.

What are good reasons according to you ming?
Because they dont work as hard as ming does?
ive got news for you mingy, rewarding talent is more efficient than rewarding hard work, if you had to choose between one or the other.

you would be shit outa luck mingy



sorry not sorry

**This post was edited on Apr 10th 2020 at 12:09:19am

I think working for a resort while trying to be a ski bum isn’t a great idea in the first place.

**This post was edited on Apr 10th 2020 at 5:43:04pm

DolanReloadedWhat are good reasons according to you ming?
Because they dont work as hard as ming does?
ive got news for you mingy, rewarding talent is more efficient than rewarding hard work, if you had to choose between one or the other.

you would be shit outa luck mingy



sorry not sorry

**This post was edited on Apr 10th 2020 at 12:09:19am

Why are u saying his name a shit load lmao

DolanReloadedWhat are good reasons according to you ming?
Because they dont work as hard as ming does?
ive got news for you mingy, rewarding talent is more efficient than rewarding hard work, if you had to choose between one or the other.

you would be shit outa luck mingy



sorry not sorry

**This post was edited on Apr 10th 2020 at 12:09:19am

The suicide rate has been rather constant over time. Minimum wage, when adjusted for inflation and cost of living has decreased. The fact that the suicide rate does not fluctuate with the value of minimum wage tells me it's not as important of a factor than others.

I mean absolutely raise wages so people can have a better quality of life. And I absolutely support measures taken to decrease the suicide rate. I just don't see enough evidence to suggest they go hand in hand. Show it to me and I'll listen, Dolan.

if you want money being a ski bum is probably the wrong career choice id say.

What are you talking about with suicide rates? Maybe I'm uninformed, but never have I had any friends commit suicide from working at a ski resort. And sadly I have seen friends resort to suicide. Financial issues can be a major influence for suicide sure, but those are usually grouped in with with many other issues. Placing blame on a ski resort seems silly.

Idk about America but I assume it’s similar to Europe where most resort workers are people doing a ski season....ie they’re there because they want to ski, not because they’re trying to get some savings and a pension built up.

If wages start to increase then resort jobs will become attractive to people who have no interest in skiing purely because the money is better than working in Walmart for example. Then you end up with kids who struggle to go and do a ski season purely because they can’t compete in a more crowded job market.

im not saying definitely don’t increase wages (as I said, idk the situation in America as I’m not from there) but it’s worth keeping in mind that a wage increase has its downsides as well

Weird fixation on suicide the last couple days op, quarantine hitting hard dolan?

scanning tickets or bumping chairs isn't supposed to be a career. there is a reason people tend to earn more money later in their lives - they move on from unskilled work jobs to jobs that require experience and more advanced knowledge. the market sets the price and clearly the market doesn't value that job at $15/hr, otherwise it would be demanding that rate of pay. artificially raising the wage rate by way of government intervention isn't the answer, i'm afraid.

I think there may be a few comorbidities to consider before drawing the line from a low standard of living to suicide. If that were true, we would see a lot of suicide in poorer countries which isn't exactly backed up by the data. One thing you might want to consider is the effects of living at elevation and suicide (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114154/). Another point to consider is the depression rate of those who move to the mountains to avoid their problems in the first place. Simply by raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour doesn't fix the underlying issues in my opinion.

I do agree with raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour but I don't think there would be much of a noticeable effect on suicide rates. I am sure there is data out there for you to look at to see if I'm wrong.

Cheers,

It might help a little, but I think suicide in the industry has just as much to do with impermanent seasonal relationships that cause loneliness, drug and alcohol addiction and abuse, and the difficulties of transitioning from the industry to a more traditional career that could support a family.

Money is often times a factor in suicide, but loneliness and a sense of stagnation and existential helplessness are the bigger things. 15 an hour would increase the quality of employees, and therefore the services that they provide, but it wouldn't do much to alleviate the loneliness or the "stuck" feeling people get when they do the same dead end job for too long.

So yes, it should be 15 an hour for a lot of very good reasons, but I think it would help with the suicide issue only slightly.

DolanReloadedEven better, the government officials should prove they have an iq above 60 and decriminalize and tax all drugs, so the gov can send shitloads of money to the resorts to also help them afford a 15$ min wage for their employees.

its pretty fucking depressing that ski bums have to live like, really, total fucking bums. You can make more working for fucking walmart and thats bullshit.

Have been smoking the reefer there bro? Re-read this section.

First, IQ testing have been debunked 20 years ago. They were a tool to segregate people (mostly minorities) in the states; not an indication if you were going to be smart or successful. If you were educated, you would know this. If you still use IQ as an argument; you are the idiot.

Second, Being a ski bum employee is about the experience, not the fucking paycheck. The money helps you pay rent so you can work more. I worked in eco-tourism for years; it was not for the pay, it was to climb every day and loving my job. Maybe if you worked in the industry for a season, you would get it.

Third, working at a front line job in the eco-tourism doesnt require a college education...it doesnt even need high school. Same as walmart and restaurants. Its your fault if you put the minimum effort into moving up in life. Getting a higher education in a field you have already worked out will give you a higher wage. Being a manager pays better than a bus boy.

Next: How would you collect taxes on a decriminalized drug? How will it be budgeted? How would this affect happiness and performance?

Thank God OPs parent are filthy rich.

DolanReloadedI I think instead of hiring south americans and sending us dollars to foreign countries resorts should get a tax break from the government for hiring locals and US citizens—money they could use to bump resort employees base pay up to 15/hr.

I'd say 70% of foreign ski resort workers are legal to work.
Of those who are legal have a J1 or a green card which requires them to pay Fed, state, local tax.

If you think the 20 illegals who work for 5 months at a shitty job on your mountain is a factor wreaking havoc on Americans economy, your an idiot.

your just salty because you regret not getting a real job and now your stuck living in your car with zero saving in the parking lot of a closed mountain because you spent all your money during the ski season and got fucked by coronavirus. but no hard feelings though many can relate

bennwithtwonsscanning tickets or bumping chairs isn't supposed to be a career. there is a reason people tend to earn more money later in their lives - they move on from unskilled work jobs to jobs that require experience and more advanced knowledge. the market sets the price and clearly the market doesn't value that job at $15/hr, otherwise it would be demanding that rate of pay. artificially raising the wage rate by way of government intervention isn't the answer, i'm afraid.

Taco bell in kings beach starts around 14.50 I think. Burger king out past boreal is 15 maybe 16. Starting. Starting. Starting. This is not people with 10 years in various roles of fast food. Starting.


If you're looking at these places the same as some fast food job in south carolina you're doing it wrong. The cost if living is much higher.


Also i get that a blanket raise would impact a ton of non skilled employees but people associating evey job at a ski area with being a first year lifty is ridiculous. There's lots of skilled employees especially in mtn ops, and they're getting boned and sometimes paid the same as the lifties.

I get the whole libertarian don't tread on me, let's let the market decide, but these ski areas will fuck people continuously.

Litterally taco bell would be a pay raise for some people running $300,000 machines sometimes, but you're right, that's unskilled labor and clearly the market is showing that the wage is corrrect.

Also I don't know if you been in fast food recently, and I avoid it, but I'd say maybe 1/4 of them at best are the first job high school kids they're made out to be fully comprised of. A lot of adults in a bind that need a job are working fast food etc.

Also this thread in general just seems like another of dolans "let me make a random thread about nothing" or some real life shit just to get another SG thread, and then argue with everyone.

The wage shouldn't go up as a response to suicides. Mtn town suicides are higher. Not everyone in the mtn towns even works for ski areas. Being able to afford to live can make peope less depressed, and wages to inflation aren't very good. It's a tough issue but our government side stepping it is shitty. I'd be down if I could buy a house here, that'll never happen, but the government shouldn't give me one.

Honestly benn, the minimum wage has been fairly stagnant which is why many states and cities are raising their own. Unfortunately ski towns don't follow along with the cities even though the costs can be fairly similar.

Look at the factory jobs back in the day. The pay was shit, the workers were treated like shit, and the hours were rowdy. But I guess if that's what the market decides...

There's room for improvement in this country especially if we're going to claim to be the best country in the world. I think a lot of people's issues with health care or wage reform is that they got health care from their job, or they feel like they're doing alright with $. Fuck everyone else because they feel like that would lesson what they've gained. Nobody wants handouts, there are a ton of lazy people, but that is far from everyone. If more people could make enough to survive, that could also lesson some of the dependence on social programs. Most people just want to work hard, and be able to pay rent, other bills, and still buy some food. That doesn't seem like a ridiculous goal, and pretty meager for the American dream. If that's too much, then this country really does suck.

The ski areas reliance on foreign workers is pretty jacked. If America is so great, and these wages are simply set by the market, why are we flying up half of south America to do them? That doesn't seem to compute with these wages being at the correct value.

The blanket 15 probably wouldn't even have much of an impact on the more skilled roles unfortunately. But people always spouting that the wages are legit are out of their minds or don't really know the situation.

When taco bell and burger king are starting people at 14-15, maybe people with 10-20 years experience running mschines building terrain parks making 17-18 some less (some more) isn't simply the market, but these ski areas being shady.

Some small ski areas struggle a lot harder, funny enough they actually still pay better in some of these mtn towns.

You're probably saying. Don't tread on me, something about the market, they should quit and get another job. The thing is, the ski industry and sport in general was built on passionate people. Even then every year I have friends every year with ridiculous amounts of experience and fold to take a welding or equipment job even back east. Even in places where the minimum wage is like 8, because they get paid resonably. You shouldn't be paid simply for being passionate, but sucking the passion out of the industry isnt going to have any positive impacts.

/rant

Yes. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/14/health/minimum-wage-suicide.html

theabortionatorTaco bell in kings beach starts around 14.50 I think. Burger king out past boreal is 15 maybe 16. Starting. Starting. Starting. This is not people with 10 years in various roles of fast food. Starting.


If you're looking at these places the same as some fast food job in south carolina you're doing it wrong. The cost if living is much higher.


Also i get that a blanket raise would impact a ton of non skilled employees but people associating evey job at a ski area with being a first year lifty is ridiculous. There's lots of skilled employees especially in mtn ops, and they're getting boned and sometimes paid the same as the lifties.

I get the whole libertarian don't tread on me, let's let the market decide, but these ski areas will fuck people continuously.

Litterally taco bell would be a pay raise for some people running $300,000 machines sometimes, but you're right, that's unskilled labor and clearly the market is showing that the wage is corrrect.

Also I don't know if you been in fast food recently, and I avoid it, but I'd say maybe 1/4 of them at best are the first job high school kids they're made out to be fully comprised of. A lot of adults in a bind that need a job are working fast food etc.

Also this thread in general just seems like another of dolans "let me make a random thread about nothing" or some real life shit just to get another SG thread, and then argue with everyone.

The wage shouldn't go up as a response to suicides. Mtn town suicides are higher. Not everyone in the mtn towns even works for ski areas. Being able to afford to live can make peope less depressed, and wages to inflation aren't very good. It's a tough issue but our government side stepping it is shitty. I'd be down if I could buy a house here, that'll never happen, but the government shouldn't give me one.

Honestly benn, the minimum wage has been fairly stagnant which is why many states and cities are raising their own. Unfortunately ski towns don't follow along with the cities even though the costs can be fairly similar.

Look at the factory jobs back in the day. The pay was shit, the workers were treated like shit, and the hours were rowdy. But I guess if that's what the market decides...

There's room for improvement in this country especially if we're going to claim to be the best country in the world. I think a lot of people's issues with health care or wage reform is that they got health care from their job, or they feel like they're doing alright with $. Fuck everyone else because they feel like that would lesson what they've gained. Nobody wants handouts, there are a ton of lazy people, but that is far from everyone. If more people could make enough to survive, that could also lesson some of the dependence on social programs. Most people just want to work hard, and be able to pay rent, other bills, and still buy some food. That doesn't seem like a ridiculous goal, and pretty meager for the American dream. If that's too much, then this country really does suck.

The ski areas reliance on foreign workers is pretty jacked. If America is so great, and these wages are simply set by the market, why are we flying up half of south America to do them? That doesn't seem to compute with these wages being at the correct value.

The blanket 15 probably wouldn't even have much of an impact on the more skilled roles unfortunately. But people always spouting that the wages are legit are out of their minds or don't really know the situation.

When taco bell and burger king are starting people at 14-15, maybe people with 10-20 years experience running mschines building terrain parks making 17-18 some less (some more) isn't simply the market, but these ski areas being shady.

Some small ski areas struggle a lot harder, funny enough they actually still pay better in some of these mtn towns.

You're probably saying. Don't tread on me, something about the market, they should quit and get another job. The thing is, the ski industry and sport in general was built on passionate people. Even then every year I have friends every year with ridiculous amounts of experience and fold to take a welding or equipment job even back east. Even in places where the minimum wage is like 8, because they get paid resonably. You shouldn't be paid simply for being passionate, but sucking the passion out of the industry isnt going to have any positive impacts.

/rant

that was a pretty good rant in my opinion! it is great that those restaurants are paying competitive wages, i would have killed to earn that my first couple of years after college working in a ski town.

this is anecdotal but i think worth a mention - when the health care industry was forced to make changes after the affordable care act was passed, the insurance policy that i was paying for (out of pocket) went from about $95/month to $550/month - a 479% INCREASE. that means that even though the market determined that my cost should have been $1,140 per year, with government intervention, it suddenly shot up to $6,600 (it literally would have been cheaper to break every bone in my body and pay all of my associated expenses on my old plan than to just have that new special ACA-approved insurance card in my wallet). meanwhile, people who couldn't afford to buy the new expensive insurance but made just enough that they didn't qualify for a reduced-cost plan were getting penalized hundreds of dollars at the end of every year.. all of that in the name of taking care of people? seems to me that it went wrong somewhere. i personally haven't heard a single story of anyone's premiums going down.

the only point i was really trying to make in the first place is that government intervention has proved time and again to cause more problems than it fixes (i am sure there are some counter examples, i'm just saying in general). for an economy that is effectively based on free enterprise, i just don't see it being a good idea to involve the government, if it can be avoided. we ran a huge experiment a few decades ago called the cold war and it proved that the government oversight model is generally too slow, wasteful and restrictive to compete with an open market.

do i want the lift operations people, kid's ski school instructors, and parking attendants to be able to pay their rent, put gas in their car, and put food on the table? obviously, 100%! i worked at northstar for 4 winters after college (with student loans looming large) when i first moved to tahoe. since i knew it was hard to make good money there, i would bust my ass 10 hours/day, 6 days/week during the offseason - May through October - so that when I arrived at the resort for the winter i could actually afford to only make $12-14/hour for those 5 winter months. i also lived in inexpensive houses with lots of roommates (6 of us in one house at a point) just so that it was an affordable lifestyle. i kid you not - at one point, i had SIX different jobs that i was doing simultaneously in order to afford living in tahoe.

when the time came that the novelty of being 'broke' and a 'ski bum' wore off, i found myself a 'real job' and worked hard to make myself irreplaceable. it was only at that point that i was able to buy a new car (the cheapest subaru i could find), a home, etc. that is the essence of upward mobility - as you gain knowledge, skills, and experience, you make yourself a more valuable worker in the marketplace. also, it is super important to manage expectations - during those northstar years i was just keeping my head above water. you spoke a lot about passion in your reply and i can't deny that sometimes that might be the only gratification you're going to feel. i lived that life while it was fun and i was willing to make compromises but when the time came, i had to move on.

i genuinely feel for anyone that is struggling financially, emotionally, or otherwise. i would just urge everyone to take action on their own behalf rather than demand that others (the government in this case) make changes to improve their lives for them. no one is more empowered to solve their own personal problems than that individual.

Where the government has intervened in every other country and provided universal healthcare, it's cheaper. So it's only in the US where the government is run by lobbyists that this is a problem.

bennwithtwonsthat was a pretty good rant in my opinion! it is great that those restaurants are paying competitive wages, i would have killed to earn that my first couple of years after college working in a ski town.

this is anecdotal but i think worth a mention - when the health care industry was forced to make changes after the affordable care act was passed, the insurance policy that i was paying for (out of pocket) went from about $95/month to $550/month - a 479% INCREASE. that means that even though the market determined that my cost should have been $1,140 per year, with government intervention, it suddenly shot up to $6,600 (it literally would have been cheaper to break every bone in my body and pay all of my associated expenses on my old plan than to just have that new special ACA-approved insurance card in my wallet). meanwhile, people who couldn't afford to buy the new expensive insurance but made just enough that they didn't qualify for a reduced-cost plan were getting penalized hundreds of dollars at the end of every year.. all of that in the name of taking care of people? seems to me that it went wrong somewhere. i personally haven't heard a single story of anyone's premiums going down.

the only point i was really trying to make in the first place is that government intervention has proved time and again to cause more problems than it fixes (i am sure there are some counter examples, i'm just saying in general). for an economy that is effectively based on free enterprise, i just don't see it being a good idea to involve the government, if it can be avoided. we ran a huge experiment a few decades ago called the cold war and it proved that the government oversight model is generally too slow, wasteful and restrictive to compete with an open market.

do i want the lift operations people, kid's ski school instructors, and parking attendants to be able to pay their rent, put gas in their car, and put food on the table? obviously, 100%! i worked at northstar for 4 winters after college (with student loans looming large) when i first moved to tahoe. since i knew it was hard to make good money there, i would bust my ass 10 hours/day, 6 days/week during the offseason - May through October - so that when I arrived at the resort for the winter i could actually afford to only make $12-14/hour for those 5 winter months. i also lived in inexpensive houses with lots of roommates (6 of us in one house at a point) just so that it was an affordable lifestyle. i kid you not - at one point, i had SIX different jobs that i was doing simultaneously in order to afford living in tahoe.

when the time came that the novelty of being 'broke' and a 'ski bum' wore off, i found myself a 'real job' and worked hard to make myself irreplaceable. it was only at that point that i was able to buy a new car (the cheapest subaru i could find), a home, etc. that is the essence of upward mobility - as you gain knowledge, skills, and experience, you make yourself a more valuable worker in the marketplace. also, it is super important to manage expectations - during those northstar years i was just keeping my head above water. you spoke a lot about passion in your reply and i can't deny that sometimes that might be the only gratification you're going to feel. i lived that life while it was fun and i was willing to make compromises but when the time came, i had to move on.

i genuinely feel for anyone that is struggling financially, emotionally, or otherwise. i would just urge everyone to take action on their own behalf rather than demand that others (the government in this case) make changes to improve their lives for them. no one is more empowered to solve their own personal problems than that individual.

Idk about the min wage but dolan threads make me wanna commit neck rope so there's that

That may be true but I suspect most of those places have very high income tax, so the true cost may be hidden to some degree. I haven’t looked into it specifically so I can’t say with any degree of certainty. I would just prefer to be able to make that decision for myself, as I think I have a better idea of what my health needs are than the government does.

LivingDaLifeWhere the government has intervened in every other country and provided universal healthcare, it's cheaper. So it's only in the US where the government is run by lobbyists that this is a problem.

MinggThe suicide rate has been rather constant over time. Minimum wage, when adjusted for inflation and cost of living has decreased. The fact that the suicide rate does not fluctuate with the value of minimum wage tells me it's not as important of a factor than others.

I mean absolutely raise wages so people can have a better quality of life. And I absolutely support measures taken to decrease the suicide rate. I just don't see enough evidence to suggest they go hand in hand. Show it to me and I'll listen, Dolan.

The fuck? The rate of suicide HAS steadily risen with time.

Some facts for this thread to have some basis because all the upvotes for Mingg's post are ridiculous:

- It is the second leading cause of death for people aged between 15 and 34
- Men die by suicide 3.53x more often than women
- White males accounted for 7 of 10 suicides in 2016
- The rate of suicide is highest in middle aged white men in particular

Sound like the demographic of ski bums and ski resort employees?


The states with the highest amount of suicides per capita:
1. Montana
2. Wyoming
3. Alaska
4. New Mexico
5. Idaho
6. Utah

The mountainous western states of the United States in particular have a trend of higher suicide rates.
Suicide, mental health problems, and addiction are all very clearly linked to economic stability.
Higher minimum wages are linked to lower suicide rates.

Beyond just that, mental health issues and snow sports have been speculated as having a correlation for some time now. While I think a 15 dollar minimum wage would help to decrease the rate of suicide, I feel like it is worth also breaching the topic of the lack of mental healthcare in the United States. In addition to a higher minimum wage, access to mental healthcare needs to be universal if we are to immediately and directly help those suffering from mental health problems.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States
https://www.americashealthrankings.org/explore/annual/measure/Suicide/state/ALL
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/01/20/higher-minimum-wages-are-linked-to-lower-suicide-rates

K-Dot.The fuck? The rate of suicide HAS steadily risen with time.

Some facts for this thread to have some basis because all the upvotes for Mingg's post are ridiculous:

- It is the second leading cause of death for people aged between 15 and 34
- Men die by suicide 3.53x more often than women
- White males accounted for 7 of 10 suicides in 2016
- The rate of suicide is highest in middle aged white men in particular

Sound like the demographic of ski bums and ski resort employees?


The states with the highest amount of suicides per capita:
1. Montana
2. Wyoming
3. Alaska
4. New Mexico
5. Idaho
6. Utah

The mountainous western states of the United States in particular have a trend of higher suicide rates.
Suicide, mental health problems, and addiction are all very clearly linked to economic stability.
Higher minimum wages are linked to lower suicide rates.

Beyond just that, mental health issues and snow sports have been speculated as having a correlation for some time now. While I think a 15 dollar minimum wage would help to decrease the rate of suicide, I feel like it is worth also breaching the topic of the lack of mental healthcare in the United States. In addition to a higher minimum wage, access to mental healthcare needs to be universal if we are to immediately and directly help those suffering from mental health problems.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States
https://www.americashealthrankings.org/explore/annual/measure/Suicide/state/ALL
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/01/20/higher-minimum-wages-are-linked-to-lower-suicide-rates

Nice wikipedia graphs.

Your first graph shows that there are more suicides, which is to be expected because of an increasing population. The second graph shows the rate per 100,000 people so I'll go off of that. It's very steadily in the 10-14 per 100,000 range and if you extend that graph out to the 1960s, it's still is relatively flat, increasing and decreasing at various times but staying within that range. Roughly 010% to .014% It's not perfectly flat, but fairly consistent.

I got this graph from Wikipedia too. The US is purple.

I don't see enough info linking minimum wage with suicide but if that's going to be your reasoning to increase minimum wage then go for it. I think there are plenty of reasons to support initiatives for both causes but linking the two together is a bit of a stretch. I won't refute any of the stats you listed, but none of them directly link minimum wage and suicide. So I can't really say you changed my mind.

I’ve never met a resort employee that had to pay for anything in my life. If you factor in the free booze people are clearing 40 bucks an hour

I also don't know how to get the point across that they should absolutely raise the minimum wage to reflect cost of living in that particular area and for fuck sake give people decent money for doing decent work. But yeah, I'm not gonna say do it so they don't kill themselves cause as of right now that seems like v dramatic. Give me the evidence though and I'll be 100% on your side, even though I'm pretty much agreeing with you just for different reasons so maybe well get no where anyways lol.

bennwithtwonsThat may be true but I suspect most of those places have very high income tax, so the true cost may be hidden to some degree. I haven’t looked into it specifically so I can’t say with any degree of certainty. I would just prefer to be able to make that decision for myself, as I think I have a better idea of what my health needs are than the government does.

I would recommend actually looking into it, because right now it's your insurance company deciding what you need whereas in a single payer system it would be your doctor deciding what you need, not the government. And as far as spending goes, this includes the taxes - it is healthcare spending per capita, the US spends almost twice as much as any other country in the world because they are spending it on insurance CEO's millions of dollars of salary and on all the bureaucracy required to handle insurance.

LivingDaLifeI would recommend actually looking into it, because right now it's your insurance company deciding what you need whereas in a single payer system it would be your doctor deciding what you need, not the government. And as far as spending goes, this includes the taxes - it is healthcare spending per capita, the US spends almost twice as much as any other country in the world because they are spending it on insurance CEO's millions of dollars of salary and on all the bureaucracy required to handle insurance.

No doubt the US expenditure for health care overall is extremely high and that is concerning. However, I think we can take some solace in the fact that the quality of care in this country is also exceptionally high. The US leads the world in the number of critical care beds per capita: 34.7 per 100,000 people vs 6.6 per 100,000 in the UK's single-payer system. So we spend 2x more than anyone but we have 5x the ICU beds of a single-payer designed system. I think that is a trade that any economist would make. Of course, this is just 1 example in an insanely complex network that no one is fully qualified to dissect, myself included for sure. Please take care of yourselves and do the best you can to be a champion for your own health and wellbeing - eat well, exercise, and keep working hard! Don't forget, it is the pursuit of happiness that is an unalienable right guaranteed by our founding fathers - happiness is not guaranteed.

DolanReloadedI feel like alot of the workers at ski resorts get into states of depression (often leading to suicide) partially because they dont really earn enough to have any savings. I think instead of hiring south americans and sending us dollars to foreign countries resorts should get a tax break from the government for hiring locals and US citizens—money they could use to bump resort employees base pay up to 15/hr. Even better, the government officials should prove they have an iq above 60 and decriminalize and tax all drugs, so the gov can send shitloads of money to the resorts to also help them afford a 15$ min wage for their employees.

its pretty fucking depressing that ski bums have to live like, really, total fucking bums. You can make more working for fucking walmart and thats bullshit.

I have another idea that you might like - you can buy Vail stock at very low prices right now (dropped about $100 per share in the last 6 months) and then they will pay you dividends! The annual dividend is $7.04 per share.. so if you want to get a $2/hr raise for the whole year (2080 working hours), you only need to buy 591. The best part is, if you bought those 591 shares and got $7.04 annually per share per year for 40 years, you'd get $166,425 back from Vail on your dividends alone, ignoring the value of the shares themselves.

bogustyour just salty because you regret not getting a real job and now your stuck living in your car with zero saving in the parking lot of a closed mountain because you spent all your money during the ski season and got fucked by coronavirus. but no hard feelings though many can relate

You don't have a good job and are bum as fuck stop fronting dogfart.

MinggI also don't know how to get the point across that they should absolutely raise the minimum wage to reflect cost of living in that particular area and for fuck sake give people decent money for doing decent work. But yeah, I'm not gonna say do it so they don't kill themselves cause as of right now that seems like v dramatic. Give me the evidence though and I'll be 100% on your side, even though I'm pretty much agreeing with you just for different reasons so maybe well get no where anyways lol.

Yeah everythings expensive.

I hope this shit goes after parasites that poach peoples money. 14 bucks for a beer at a sports game? You should be executed on the spot for charging that.

The referenced post has been removed.

i just got dividend yesterday.. maybe it starts with q2?

bennwithtwonsNo doubt the US expenditure for health care overall is extremely high and that is concerning. However, I think we can take some solace in the fact that the quality of care in this country is also exceptionally high. The US leads the world in the number of critical care beds per capita: 34.7 per 100,000 people vs 6.6 per 100,000 in the UK's single-payer system. So we spend 2x more than anyone but we have 5x the ICU beds of a single-payer designed system. I think that is a trade that any economist would make. Of course, this is just 1 example in an insanely complex network that no one is fully qualified to dissect, myself included for sure. Please take care of yourselves and do the best you can to be a champion for your own health and wellbeing - eat well, exercise, and keep working hard! Don't forget, it is the pursuit of happiness that is an unalienable right guaranteed by our founding fathers - happiness is not guaranteed.

You're cherry picking statistics, Germany is very close in that statistic and has universal healthcare (not 100% single payer, but still much better than the US and government pays 77% of it) and you're only using one statistic. In almost every other category, the US performs worse. I agree with everything else though, it's complex and hard to rate. But what good does having critical care beds per capita do when people can't afford to go to the ER in the first place? And maybe if we had better preventative care, we wouldn't need as much critical care.

bennwithtwonsthat was a pretty good rant in my opinion! it is great that those restaurants are paying competitive wages, i would have killed to earn that my first couple of years after college working in a ski town.

this is anecdotal but i think worth a mention - when the health care industry was forced to make changes after the affordable care act was passed, the insurance policy that i was paying for (out of pocket) went from about $95/month to $550/month - a 479% INCREASE. that means that even though the market determined that my cost should have been $1,140 per year, with government intervention, it suddenly shot up to $6,600 (it literally would have been cheaper to break every bone in my body and pay all of my associated expenses on my old plan than to just have that new special ACA-approved insurance card in my wallet). meanwhile, people who couldn't afford to buy the new expensive insurance but made just enough that they didn't qualify for a reduced-cost plan were getting penalized hundreds of dollars at the end of every year.. all of that in the name of taking care of people? seems to me that it went wrong somewhere. i personally haven't heard a single story of anyone's premiums going down.

the only point i was really trying to make in the first place is that government intervention has proved time and again to cause more problems than it fixes (i am sure there are some counter examples, i'm just saying in general). for an economy that is effectively based on free enterprise, i just don't see it being a good idea to involve the government, if it can be avoided. we ran a huge experiment a few decades ago called the cold war and it proved that the government oversight model is generally too slow, wasteful and restrictive to compete with an open market.

do i want the lift operations people, kid's ski school instructors, and parking attendants to be able to pay their rent, put gas in their car, and put food on the table? obviously, 100%! i worked at northstar for 4 winters after college (with student loans looming large) when i first moved to tahoe. since i knew it was hard to make good money there, i would bust my ass 10 hours/day, 6 days/week during the offseason - May through October - so that when I arrived at the resort for the winter i could actually afford to only make $12-14/hour for those 5 winter months. i also lived in inexpensive houses with lots of roommates (6 of us in one house at a point) just so that it was an affordable lifestyle. i kid you not - at one point, i had SIX different jobs that i was doing simultaneously in order to afford living in tahoe.

when the time came that the novelty of being 'broke' and a 'ski bum' wore off, i found myself a 'real job' and worked hard to make myself irreplaceable. it was only at that point that i was able to buy a new car (the cheapest subaru i could find), a home, etc. that is the essence of upward mobility - as you gain knowledge, skills, and experience, you make yourself a more valuable worker in the marketplace. also, it is super important to manage expectations - during those northstar years i was just keeping my head above water. you spoke a lot about passion in your reply and i can't deny that sometimes that might be the only gratification you're going to feel. i lived that life while it was fun and i was willing to make compromises but when the time came, i had to move on.

i genuinely feel for anyone that is struggling financially, emotionally, or otherwise. i would just urge everyone to take action on their own behalf rather than demand that others (the government in this case) make changes to improve their lives for them. no one is more empowered to solve their own personal problems than that individual.

I feel you. I think that attempt at "fixing" health insurance fucked things up. That said it could have been done a lot cheaper and more reasonably. Is government intervention always the answer not really, does the government have a perfect track record? Fuck no. I think there's something to it from living in countries that have health care for everyone. They seem to do it a lot better than our half assed attempt, and seem to be pretty down with it. My friends living in other countries think our system is kind of ridiculous.


A lot of people working in the industry arent ski bums. As far as housing, airbnb and second 3rd homes have kind of fucked things even more especially in tahoe and summit(i hope i never live in summit though)

There's the people that work in the ski industry just to ski, to bum it up, to party for a few years after college. That's cool although the housing is fucked that even that's difficult. But there are legitimately skilled people in the industry. If people that were building parks at a resort crushing it, have knowledge of the resort and several different departments leave over a couple bucks an hour thats bad, and bad for the industry.

One of my friends just came back to a mtn that pays decent enough after leaving the industry for a few years to just run equipment because the pay was legit. He's a good operator but passionate about the ski industry.

Honestly after a few more year round winters I'll probably bail on the industry for good unless I find a small mtn that's legit enough where passion overcomes pay(which is shitty but whatever) Bail on the industry and then just start doing year round summer in equipment.

It's shitty because I didn't 14 seasons various park roles, 3 seasons grooming parks, this summer was gonna be my second trail grooming in Australia but corona. A couple snowmaking and other shit.

Actually maybe Ill just bail on the US ski industry. Make the summer my winter season, and do summer work in the states while the northern hem season can fuck itself.

Idk. I just see too many people with shit tons of experience dipping out because they're getting fucked so hard. Letting people go because you can pay somebody 2 dollars less an hour with 0 experience doesn't seem like the asnwer. Even then there's mtns that stuggle to find enough people every year. The everyone is replaceable mentality is kinda whack when some departments are beyond short every year.

People are replaceable to an extent
If you're a douche no amount of skill is worth if nobody will work with you. This is different though.

Idk the fast food places in these towns paying better than ski areas, especially vail ones is pretty fucked.

I'm def salty af. But I love terrain parks. Thinking up new features, welding rails, getting the angles just right. Designing and building plazas.

If that's not worthwhile than fuck everyone in the industry, they can just do it like the sketchy midwest east coast mtns that have some guy that makes snow or grooms build jumps with 9 degree landing, rails that LJ wouldn't even hit, and the takeoff is such a clusterfuck you could barely even get to the rail. #makeparkskiingsketchyagain

LivingDaLifeYou're cherry picking statistics, Germany is very close in that statistic and has universal healthcare (not 100% single payer, but still much better than the US and government pays 77% of it) and you're only using one statistic. In almost every other category, the US performs worse. I agree with everything else though, it's complex and hard to rate. But what good does having critical care beds per capita do when people can't afford to go to the ER in the first place? And maybe if we had better preventative care, we wouldn't need as much critical care.

yeah, definitely. i was just highlighting one example - as you mentioned. just as spend per capita is one statistic. that's why i followed it up with saying people should do their best to look out for themselves. i do not know what the answer is but it is my opinion that government intervention usually results in a bloated system that results in lower levels of care. i had another post where in that thread where i mentioned that in my personal experience, the cost of my insurance went up 478% once the government passed the affordable care act. the result is that it now takes me 2 months to see my doctor or get a scan that used to be available to me within days. that is a personal anecdote - i would be really interested in hearing a positive story if anyone has got one. stay safe and healthy!

theabortionatorI feel you. I think that attempt at "fixing" health insurance fucked things up. That said it could have been done a lot cheaper and more reasonably. Is government intervention always the answer not really, does the government have a perfect track record? Fuck no. I think there's something to it from living in countries that have health care for everyone. They seem to do it a lot better than our half assed attempt, and seem to be pretty down with it. My friends living in other countries think our system is kind of ridiculous.


A lot of people working in the industry arent ski bums. As far as housing, airbnb and second 3rd homes have kind of fucked things even more especially in tahoe and summit(i hope i never live in summit though)

There's the people that work in the ski industry just to ski, to bum it up, to party for a few years after college. That's cool although the housing is fucked that even that's difficult. But there are legitimately skilled people in the industry. If people that were building parks at a resort crushing it, have knowledge of the resort and several different departments leave over a couple bucks an hour thats bad, and bad for the industry.

One of my friends just came back to a mtn that pays decent enough after leaving the industry for a few years to just run equipment because the pay was legit. He's a good operator but passionate about the ski industry.

Honestly after a few more year round winters I'll probably bail on the industry for good unless I find a small mtn that's legit enough where passion overcomes pay(which is shitty but whatever) Bail on the industry and then just start doing year round summer in equipment.

It's shitty because I didn't 14 seasons various park roles, 3 seasons grooming parks, this summer was gonna be my second trail grooming in Australia but corona. A couple snowmaking and other shit.

Actually maybe Ill just bail on the US ski industry. Make the summer my winter season, and do summer work in the states while the northern hem season can fuck itself.

Idk. I just see too many people with shit tons of experience dipping out because they're getting fucked so hard. Letting people go because you can pay somebody 2 dollars less an hour with 0 experience doesn't seem like the asnwer. Even then there's mtns that stuggle to find enough people every year. The everyone is replaceable mentality is kinda whack when some departments are beyond short every year.

People are replaceable to an extent
If you're a douche no amount of skill is worth if nobody will work with you. This is different though.

Idk the fast food places in these towns paying better than ski areas, especially vail ones is pretty fucked.

I'm def salty af. But I love terrain parks. Thinking up new features, welding rails, getting the angles just right. Designing and building plazas.

If that's not worthwhile than fuck everyone in the industry, they can just do it like the sketchy midwest east coast mtns that have some guy that makes snow or grooms build jumps with 9 degree landing, rails that LJ wouldn't even hit, and the takeoff is such a clusterfuck you could barely even get to the rail. #makeparkskiingsketchyagain

yeah there is a good chance the answer is somewhere in between, as it usually is. Are you from the US or from Australia? You've been park crew at northstar?

The referenced post has been removed.

I bought a couple years ago and it was much higher than it is now but of course my dividends are reinvested in more of the stock so i am also getting a bit of the lower price action right now, although in the grand scheme it is probably inconsequential haha

This may be one of the more intellectual NS threads.

Interesting that suicide rates took a turn in early 2000 with the explosion of the internet. Now people compare themselves to everyone they know pretending to live their best lives. Turns out most people are doing so via loads of debt, which happens in every economic cycle (see: keeping up with the Joneses).

Perhaps suicide rates in mountain towns would decline if there were better women in those towns. Or more women who are attracted to men with low paying jobs.

Sadly, the types of jobs being described are often highly competitive. You may want $15/hour but some other guy will do it for $10. And that’s how businesses, particularly those with low margins and heavy dependence on things outside of their control (weather) stay in business. You have to keep expenses low. As noted by someone above, if you feel like you’re getting boned, buy some shares and be an owner. You can either work for the man or be the man...the sooner you figure that out, the better off you will be.

It’s sad that everything has gotten so expensive that the ski bum lifestyle apparently isn’t what it used to be. But you can also get a real job, go on skiing vacations, and satisfy that itch with less stress. Most companies shoulder a large amount of the health insurance burden for you. And then you aren’t stuck getting paid nothing on a powder day.

bennwithtwonsyeah there is a good chance the answer is somewhere in between, as it usually is. Are you from the US or from Australia? You've been park crew at northstar?

USA. But ive been doing some sourthern seasons the last 6 years. Newer to the spot in Australia but I really like the crew and the setup.

I did the last 3 seaons on parks at Northstar. Was supposed to be there 4 years ago but somebody gave my jerb away because they were doing too many droogz and about to leave anyway. I did a season at Aspen that year and would work for them again if I was gonna do the mega corp life. Def with Northstat and prolly Vail.

Our parks were pretty solid as usual but the vibes were shot. Idk was in the process of switching to another mtn begore corona, so might so that next year, or might dip out from here. I do like the are and have a lot if friends here now but it's getting to the "fuck you pay me" shopping for mtns unless i find a good opportunity somewhere.


Sparknotes:
Idk, i just whenever ski are wage debates comes up and everyone becomes a ski bum lifty. And northstar and vail in general can suck a dick. That's all.

PS: I'm not even drinking I just don't wanna have to stop working in parks forever because the industry blows. The mtn I grew up at had no park, there were no rails or jumps. I'd get kicked off for building sometimes. Fell into parks at gore cause i almost got fired from ski school for building a jump(they had no park that season yet). And it's been sick making stuff good for the childrens. The park industry has gotten way more streamlimes, especially with social media. Its harder to be stuck in the dark ages. Idk plenty of places still suck, and a lot of mtns could be a lot better.

/done ranting for a while lol

theabortionatorUSA. But ive been doing some sourthern seasons the last 6 years. Newer to the spot in Australia but I really like the crew and the setup.

I did the last 3 seaons on parks at Northstar. Was supposed to be there 4 years ago but somebody gave my jerb away because they were doing too many droogz and about to leave anyway. I did a season at Aspen that year and would work for them again if I was gonna do the mega corp life. Def with Northstat and prolly Vail.

Our parks were pretty solid as usual but the vibes were shot. Idk was in the process of switching to another mtn begore corona, so might so that next year, or might dip out from here. I do like the are and have a lot if friends here now but it's getting to the "fuck you pay me" shopping for mtns unless i find a good opportunity somewhere.


Sparknotes:
Idk, i just whenever ski are wage debates comes up and everyone becomes a ski bum lifty. And northstar and vail in general can suck a dick. That's all.

PS: I'm not even drinking I just don't wanna have to stop working in parks forever because the industry blows. The mtn I grew up at had no park, there were no rails or jumps. I'd get kicked off for building sometimes. Fell into parks at gore cause i almost got fired from ski school for building a jump(they had no park that season yet). And it's been sick making stuff good for the childrens. The park industry has gotten way more streamlimes, especially with social media. Its harder to be stuck in the dark ages. Idk plenty of places still suck, and a lot of mtns could be a lot better.

/done ranting for a while lol

In my example I just assumed that someone wanting to make $15/hour was in a position such as parking attendant or bumping chairs because the head of ski school or mountain ops probably makes a killer wage. Also, I never really liked the term bum anyway because I was never a bum. I always worked hard to make sure I didn’t have to ‘bum’ anything from anybody. You grew up skiing gore? Awesome pow days there if you get lucky! But in my experience the park was worth skipping. Hopefully it’s better these days.

bennwithtwonsIn my example I just assumed that someone wanting to make $15/hour was in a position such as parking attendant or bumping chairs because the head of ski school or mountain ops probably makes a killer wage. Also, I never really liked the term bum anyway because I was never a bum. I always worked hard to make sure I didn’t have to ‘bum’ anything from anybody. You grew up skiing gore? Awesome pow days there if you get lucky! But in my experience the park was worth skipping. Hopefully it’s better these days.

Yeah I feel you. I didn't even break 15 last season. But that's fine. I got 3 seasons in there. Some consistency on the resume and references and now I'm out and never working for that place again. Really bummed on the southern season because I feel like that will be my new consistent home. Hopefully my next move in the states is a decent one.

Yeah Oak Mtn and Gore were my local hills. I skied Oak from 95 till 06 other than a few seasons when they were closed. Gore the same but only like 4 times a year until I started getting passes there like 03 or 04. Gore's park has sadly been shitty forever. I do miss when there were jumps all the way from sleighride to 3b?(i think) way back. And the pipe on the arena.

Gore as a mtn is super underrated though. That place fucks. The management can be kinda shitty but lots of good people there and some really good terrain with well laid out lifts.

I made it there like 4 years ago for opening day first time in prolly as many years. Would love to go back and do something at gore again eventually but not ready for the east coast yet. Went back for a season at west 5 years ago and that was a disaster. Had better luck at oak and a way more fun job.

East coast is chill though. Is that where you're at or where you grew up?

theabortionatorYeah I feel you. I didn't even break 15 last season. But that's fine. I got 3 seasons in there. Some consistency on the resume and references and now I'm out and never working for that place again. Really bummed on the southern season because I feel like that will be my new consistent home. Hopefully my next move in the states is a decent one.

Yeah Oak Mtn and Gore were my local hills. I skied Oak from 95 till 06 other than a few seasons when they were closed. Gore the same but only like 4 times a year until I started getting passes there like 03 or 04. Gore's park has sadly been shitty forever. I do miss when there were jumps all the way from sleighride to 3b?(i think) way back. And the pipe on the arena.

Gore as a mtn is super underrated though. That place fucks. The management can be kinda shitty but lots of good people there and some really good terrain with well laid out lifts.

I made it there like 4 years ago for opening day first time in prolly as many years. Would love to go back and do something at gore again eventually but not ready for the east coast yet. Went back for a season at west 5 years ago and that was a disaster. Had better luck at oak and a way more fun job.

East coast is chill though. Is that where you're at or where you grew up?

Went to college in NY but skied whiteface more frequently than gore but did like it as well. It’s hard to imagine going from west to east for sure.

when I worked at NS they reimbursed me for training and certifications, which I thought was a pretty good deal. Also I got to travel to OR and CO for comps, all paid for. Admittedly coaching is probably one of the best jobs that isn’t a high paid management gig, especially since our team was stacked.

the whole situation is tough to really take on when we’re considering the impact of financial stress on mental health. It seems obvious that having more money will result in an increased quality of life and therefore lower rates of suicide but I think that may be an oversimplification. It would be interesting to see how they correlate.

I just hope anyone who is struggling can find someone to speak with. Fostering a strong feeling of self worth and sense of community can do wonders for the psyche.

MinggI got this graph from Wikipedia too. The US is purple.

This graph misleadingly ends in 2011.

From the CDC website:

"From 1999 through 2017, the age-adjusted suicide rate increased 33% from 10.5 to 14.0 per 100,000."

fuck dolton yur miniscule grasp of mental health issues is sad
do ya think Bordain needed an extra grand a show from cnn
yur boy hst needed money
git a clue sad incel silver spooner
it aint about the $$$$
its about gittin help when you need it