Vegan/plant-based gabber

The referenced post has been removed.

CrunnchyVanManPersonally, I dont hold myself too strictly to vegan or plant based. I try when I can, but when it comes to environmental impact, eating meat from your local rancher who treats his livestock well, and lets them graze and feed, restoring the land and keeping it heathy has a much better env. impact than just eating mass produced vegan junk food from pesticide riddled farms, that shit destroys the land just as much as large scale livestock ops, so bad for animals and people too when it gets into the groundwater. Healthy soil is absolutely essential for carbon sequestration too, I recently watched Kiss The Ground on Netflix and highly recommend it for anybody in this thread

sqeellicbicIt is completely irrelevant how someone treats their animals if they ultimately get murdered. And kiss the ground is extremely flawed. Watch this vid. There is no such thing as ethical meat and I'll gladly have a discussion about it with anyone who cares to hear my perspective.
https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/986908/Is-grazing-animals-good-for-the-environment-

Charlie_KellyThere’s no such thing as an ethical iPhone or Nike shoe either, yet vegans love both of those products.


Do you think animals can be humanely raised?

**This post was edited on Jan 2nd 2021 at 6:21:34pm

sqeellicbicWhat do you mean by raised? If you mean raised in order for us to exploit them for their flesh or milk or eggs, then no.

And I'm aware that iPhones or Nike products aren't the best, but that's a different conversation. Underpaid workers/bad conditions is a huge issue but it's not even close to being as bad as animal exploitation.

Charlie_KellyIt’s not a different conversation when you are talking about moral consistency, or the lack there of. Much of the precious metals found in your iPhone, and many other electronics for that matter, can be traced back to actual slave labor in places like Africa. How is that not the same issue? We are talking about the abuse and exploitation of animals right? Are humans not animals?

What about pets? By your own logic that would also be exploitation of an animal for nothing more than personal pleasure.

Either way I see absolutely no issues raising animals in a healthy environment for human consumption. I don’t think it makes someone immoral for eating meat, especially if they do their due diligence. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a truly compelling argument as to why I shouldn’t eat meat without much of the data being cherry-picked.

**This post was edited on Jan 2nd 2021 at 8:01:16pm

sqeellicbicYou say you've never heard a compelling argument, so I'll give you one. We can talk about the iPhone stuff later but lets keep it on non-human animal consumption for now. We can talk about pets later too. This is gonna be a wall of text but I truly think you will be swayed by this so please take the time to read it and spend time thinking about it. If you've never questioned your morality, it can be a lot to take in at first. Keep an open mind too.

Okay so first of all you need to accept this factual premise: There are only two reasons that people eat animal products. For taste or for nutrition. It's very important for my argument that you fully accept this premise so take a minute to think of a reason that isn't one of those two, you won't be able to.

With that premise established, you also need to accept this factual premise: There is no nutrients in animal products that you can't get from non-animal products. This is a undisputable fact which is also crucial to my argument so think about it and accept it fully. B12? Take a tablet. Omega 3s? Chia seeds or hemp seeds or just another tablet. Protein/carbs/fats? I think you already know that those are in literally everything. Vitamins? Fruits and vegetables.

So with both of those established, we can now conclude that the only reason people eat animal products is for taste.

Now let me ask you this: Would you rather go blind or lose your sense of taste? I am almost certain you'd lose your sense of taste rather than your sight. Without sight there's no more skiing, no more driving, etc.

So we have now concluded that the only reason to eat animals is for taste and also that we value sight more than taste, both of which are just one of our five senses.

Now, would it be moral for you to slit a pigs throat because you love to see them squirm as they die? I think not. Even if it's to serve sight, which we have concluded is more important than taste.

Final Conclusion: Eating animal products is only for taste. There is nothing in animal products that you can't get elsewhere. So if killing an animal to watch them die is immoral, killing an animal to taste their flesh is immoral.

TOAST.Can I have a goat for milk/cheese or a chicken for eggs if i treat them well or is that still exploiting them?
I'm not 100% sold on a vegan diet. I'm looking for information on if fertilizing on a large scale is possible without manure or chemicals. Any info on that?

KDSAWent vegetarian around 6 months ago after noticing I was getting sick after every time I ate red meat. Started to introduce fish again lately and it’s been going well. Body feels damn good though and lost about 15 pounds.

sqeellicbicNo having a goat or chickens is not ethical although I would say that it's far far better than buying it from the store. I think we can all agree that there's different levels of exploitation and backyard eggs are the "best" way to get eggs but in my opinion it still isn't ethical.

As for the fertilizing, I'm really not qualified to talk about that. I'm confident on my ability to convince people on the morality side of it all but I just haven't done enough research into fertilizer.

This is a good video about backyard eggs:
https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/986938/Why-don-t-vegans-eat-backyard-eggs-

TOAST.The reason I bring this up is that morality is subjective and I think doing what is best for the planet should be taken into consideration. Even if I would agree that killing animals immoral, we would still rely on them to fertilize crops, so that could mean a vegan is exploiting them as well. Or we use chemical fertilizers that have worse affects on the environment. I assumed from the other thread that you knew of a way to do large scale composting that doesnt contain manure.

My conclusion currently, is that a vegetarian (not vegan) diet would be the most ethical/moral/sustainable diet if done using best practices for raising plants as well as animals, not our widely used monocrop systems.

sqeellicbicI think that you're putting way too much weight on the environment to determine morality. The best thing you can do for the environment is mass genocide all humans/kill yourself. Now, obviously that would be extremely immoral. Even if plant based fertilizers are worse for the environment (again, idk much about this, they could not be and even if they are worse, idk how much worse) then exploiting animals is still wrong.

Think about it this way. Why are we even trying to protect the environment? It's to make it a better place for us humans and also non-human animals. But the best way to minimize animal suffering is to not exploit them for their manure.

By exploiting them for their manure you are basically saying, "I'm gonna keep raping these cows and forcing them to give birth 8 or 9 times in a row until they can't even stand up just to harvest their manure so maybe future animals won't suffer from climate change" I think that exploiting them for manure does far more harm to them than climate change would do later on.

sqeellicbicYou say you've never heard a compelling argument, so I'll give you one. We can talk about the iPhone stuff later but lets keep it on non-human animal consumption for now. We can talk about pets later too. This is gonna be a wall of text but I truly think you will be swayed by this so please take the time to read it and spend time thinking about it. If you've never questioned your morality, it can be a lot to take in at first. Keep an open mind too.

Oh I've questioned my morality, I also have a father, step mother, and two step sisters that are either pescatarian or vegan and we've discussed this extensively. Not only that but I've had this same discussion multiple times with vegans online so lets see what you got!

Okay so first of all you need to accept this factual premise: There are only two reasons that people eat animal products. For taste or for nutrition. It's very important for my argument that you fully accept this premise so take a minute to think of a reason that isn't one of those two, you won't be able to.

That's fair, but I disagree. There are also people that eat meat for cultural reasons but I'm assuming you think they are exempt from that? Or hunters that view it as a symbiotic relationship with nature, but that doesn't address mass consumption so maybe you don't think that applies either? Let's assume you disregard both those two alternate reasons, so for me it would be nutrition. Next.

With that premise established, you also need to accept this factual premise: There is no nutrients in animal products that you can't get from non-animal products. This is a undisputable fact which is also crucial to my argument so think about it and accept it fully. B12? Take a tablet. Omega 3s? Chia seeds or hemp seeds or just another tablet. Protein/carbs/fats? I think you already know that those are in literally everything. Vitamins? Fruits and vegetables.

I can accept that premise but that is definitely not a reason to avoid animal products. It's almost ironic that the crux of your argument here is "taking a tablet" for vital vitamins and fattly acids that the body needs to survive and, more importantly, thrive. The problem I have with this is two fold; privilege and accessibility. I won't presume to think that you believe being vegan is easy because it's not. What I NEVER see addressed is the fact that in many parts of the world it's not even an option. It's not a practical diet or lifestyle. Only people with access and/or money get to partake. That's why you don't see vegans in the 2nd and 3rd world. But you can find a (somewhat) balanced diet in almost every corner of the globe as far as I'm concerned, and animal protein (with the exception of few) is almost always involved.

So with both of those established, we can now conclude that the only reason people eat animal products is for taste.

So no, we can't establish the only reason people eat animal products is for taste. Not even close.

Now let me ask you this: Would you rather go blind or lose your sense of taste? I am almost certain you'd lose your sense of taste rather than your sight. Without sight there's no more skiing, no more driving, etc.

Would you rather go blind or lose hearing? Sense of touch? Sense of smell? You conveniently picked our most reliant sense and pitted it against our least reliant sense. Once again convenient but doesn't really lend well to your argument.

So we have now concluded that the only reason to eat animals is for taste and also that we value sight more than taste, both of which are just one of our five senses.

The presumptions are quite laughable. No, no we haven't lol.

Now, would it be moral for you to slit a pigs throat because you love to see them squirm as they die? I think not. Even if it's to serve sight, which we have concluded is more important than taste.

Final Conclusion: Eating animal products is only for taste. There is nothing in animal products that you can't get elsewhere. So if killing an animal to watch them die is immoral, killing an animal to taste their flesh is immoral.

Charlie_KellyI responded in your quotes, hopefully that works. To address your final conclusion, no it's not immoral for some of the reasons I mentioned above. But beyond that, let's first address something that really irks me, unless you work in a slaughterhouse YOU ARE NOT KILLING THE ANIMAL. Just like, as a vegan, you don't pick the crops you ultimately eat. And so where you make your purchases is incredibly important. Second and unaddressed by your points, many of the mass produced vegan products are, if not more, unhealthy than animal proteins. Highly processed (sodium, coconut oil, soybean oil, etc). Now it becomes an argument of personal health. I could easily make the argument that holistic, local foods, including animal proteins are better for you than mass produced vegan foods. Choosing yourself and your health before others/animals doesn't make you immoral.

Overall, despite your presumptions, I don't think you made a compelling argument. It's just more of the same stuff I've heard before with a lot of presumptions and assumptions sprinkled in there.

Let me know if you want to get to the iPhone and pets because I think that is definitely relevant if we are to talk about morality by your logical standards.

**This post was edited on Jan 3rd 2021 at 12:20:46am

TOAST.If you dont kill them, no need for them to reproduce all the time. Your acting like any form of owning livestock is locking them in a cage.
Morality ismt something set in stone, Is it immoral to kill insects? And I agree that the best thing humans can do for the environment is to stop existing, but that's pretty fucking drastic. I believe that we can live sustainably without completely fucking this planet up though.

sqeellicbicYes it’s immoral to kill insects if you don’t have to. It doesn’t matter how we’ll livestock are treated if they ultimately end up in the slaughterhouse. By that logic, a parent can kill their child because they gave them everything including life.

sqeellicbicI considered putting a little foot note at the bottom because I knew you'd respond with the culture/hunter thing. It's the usual go to red herring response. Is veganism accessible to every person on the planet? No. But since you have access to the internet, ski, and spend time on ns, I am willing to bet you have access to a grocery store and are not worrying about going to bed hungry tonight. I'm not trying to convince people living in tundras who can't grow food to go vegan, I'm trying to convince you.

It's not just "people in tundras" it is billions of people all over the world that absolutely have the ability to grow their own food. In fact, they're are roughly 78 million people estimated to be vegan in 2020. That's literally like 1% of the global population. But hey, let's stick to me then.

https://wtvox.com/lifestyle/2019-the-world-of-vegan-but-how-many-vegans-are-in-the-world/#:~:text=Number%20of%20Vegans%20In%20The%20World%202020&text=Based%20on%20the%20most%20recent,world%20is%20approx%2078%20million.

I'm not sure what you mean about the tablet but if you're implying that it's unhealthy, it's not. Your source of b12 (animals) get their b12 from those same tablets. Animals cannot make b12, only bacteria can. Fish cannot make omega 3s, only algae can. You simply take it from the source instead of putting in an inefficient middle man (the animals). And nutrients from animals are not at all better and in fact, they're actually worse in a lot of cases. With animals you get cholesterol, PCBs, heavy metals, etc. It's widely regarded as fact, even among meat eaters, that red meat is not good for you too.

Couple massive issues with your argument here. First, the point I was making is that to be vegan you need access to supplements. If you live somewhere in the world, or even the US for that matter, where you cant or you cant afford them (because you'd be lying if you said they are cheap) then if you tried a vegan diet your health would absolutely suffer.

Ruminants and poultry can absolutely get B12 from grazing and feeding in a natural environment. Every time a vegan mentions how animals are supplemented B12 they are referencing fortified grains used in feed lots because, hint hint, its not a natural environment. Same goes for fish. Please don't patronize me like I'm not already aware of these things lol.

As for red meat, that is patently false. You are talking about comparative studies (vegan vs balanced vs vegetarian vs pescatarian). Of course if you compare a piece of meat to a head of lettuce you could make the argument that the lettuce is "healthier" or the piece of meat is "unhealthier". What those studies never address is other variables like whether the meat being consumed was highly processed or whether the subjects were avid smokers or drinkers for example. These factors are still highly contested. These studies rarely, if ever, set constraints on the quality of food being eaten. Do you think a grass fed piece of meat raised on a local farm is comparable to a cheeseburger from McDonalds?

Now for the third world country stuff. I think you misinterpreted my argument. I wasn't saying that the entire world has access to veganism. I was only talking about you and I who would only be eating animals for nutrition or taste. And coincidentally, the majority of the world barely ever eats meat because it's too expensive. Meat is a luxury for most people living in poverty. If you have very little money and need to buy the most food possible, you'd buy potatoes, beans, and rice. Not meat.

Not sure your point here. Meat is a luxury, veganism is a luxury. Both don't work for people in poverty. Though I would say you saying "the majority of the world barely eats meat" is factually inaccurate.

And for you and I, yes, yes we can establish that eating animal products is only for taste.

No we can't as I have already stated I eat meat for nutrition, and more so, because its nutrient dense.

You say I conveniently picked out sight but that's literally the point. We eat animals for nothing other than to appease one of our senses. And by we I mean you, don't deflect onto people living in poverty. This is about you, not them. If eating animals to appease any of our other senses is wrong then it's also wrong to eat them to appease taste.

I think eating meat can delight all the senses, not just one.

And just because you aren't personally killing the animal doesn't mean you don't vote for it to happen. Every time you buy a steak at the grocery store you are saying "I need you to kill another cow to replace this." By your logic, hiring a hitman to kill someone isn't wrong at all. You're only paying for it to happen and not doing it yourself, right?

Well no, because hiring a hitman to kill someone would implicate you in a murder. You cannot murder an animal because murder only applies to humans. Terrible example. I'd stop trying to compare humans to other animals as if their equal, doesn't bode well.

And you bring up "vegan foods" (assuming you mean beyond burgers and fake meat) as if they're a staple in most vegan's diets. You are basically saying that since unhealthy vegan foods exist then you need to eat animal products.

I mean, sort of yeah. Animal protein garnered from locally raised, healthy animals and part of a balanced diet is absolutely better for you than quite a bit of the vegan offerings regularly available.

If you choose to respond to this, keep it pertaining to your situation. Explain to me why you can't go vegan, not native Siberians or people like that.

It's not that I cant go vegan, it's that I think it's inferior to a balanced diet. It's that it's a lifestyle that has inherent flaws that vegans almost always refuse to address (you have yet to respond to the iPhone or pet argument I brought up). I don't think it makes you a better person if you're vegan.

Charlie_KellyDo you grow your own food?

TOAST.Forget the slaughterhouse at this point. Using animals for strictly dairy products and eggs (maybe not eggs idk) but also using the manure to fertilize crops and chickens to control insects (which is immoral according to yiu) idk man I hope your diet consist of shit you scavenged from the woods because the vegetables you eat are probably linked to dead animals and insects somehow. And back to the environment, if we fuck that up enough and everything dies than we really suck that is why I'm trying to base my diet are sustainability.

RichKidBumping this thread to say that I've been vegan for a few months and it's the best decision I've ever made. I feel better than ever and I don't need to kill anybody. I want to keep the discussion going and maybe convince some more people to go vegan.
https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/998776/EARTHLINGS-10-YEAR-ANNIVERSARY-EDITION

SurfinCowhell ya dude, been vegan for almost 3 years and was vegetarian for 2 years before that. never been a better time to do, you can still eat junk food all day and dont have to be a health nut which I think holds a lot of people back thinking all you can eat is salad.
btw the darkthrone pfp is solid 👌

TnskiI'v basically cut out processed foods, just meats and vegetables and been feelin pretty good

vibecheck^^^

just gonna go ahead and say stay away from oils especially soybean and canola oil. if u have to eat oils stick w olive oil and coconut oil. dont want to eat something that turns u into a pussy or something that used to be an engine lubricant

TnskiI used to use shortening, in fact I was basically raised on shortening and bacon grease then I saw a video on how they use solvents in the making if vegetable/corn oil so yea olive, coconut and peanut oil are my go too oils but still use alot of bacon grease and butter to cook with.

Charlie_KellyThere’s no such thing as an ethical iPhone or Nike shoe either, yet vegans love both of those products.

Do you think animals can be humanely raised?

**This post was edited on Jan 2nd 2021 at 6:21:34pm

No.QuarterI don't hold myself to strict standards and my goals aren't to completely cut animal products out of my diet, I just want to have a balanced mostly-plant-based omnivorous diet.

No.QuarterI've slowly transitioned into a mostly plant based diet, and my partner is vegan so I'm mostly eating vegan now. But I don't hold myself to strict standards and my goals aren't to completely cut animal products out of my diet, I just want to have a balanced mostly-plant-based omnivorous diet. I rarely ever cook meat myself because I got really grossed out by mass produced raw meat products when I worked at a fried chicken restaurant.

Meat is tasty and I like meat but I really try to eat meat rarely and prefer locally sourced and more ethically raised animal products.

There are also way too many toxic vegans out there, and most restaurants vegetarian/vegan options are completely half assed.

chickenFirst it's not true that all vegans love Nike shoes and iPhones. My partner and I are both vegan and have no iPhones or Nike shoes.

Second this is irrelevant to the issue. If someone stole from you, would their actions be morally justified because you downloaded a movie online? You can't refute someones ethical argument by demonstrating they are not entirely ethical in other unrelated areas. It does nothing to refute their point. I'm not saying you can't tell them they are acting unethically in other areas. Of course you can and should tell people that. If a vegan was being racist I would call them out on it. But it wouldn't mean all their morals are invalid. They would just be a racist vegan. Same thing as a meat eater who is not racist. It would be ridiculous for me to argue racism is ok because they do other immoral things such as eating meat.

Charlie_KellyFirst off, I wasn't saying all vegans love Nike and Apple, but I'd be damned if I didn't meet or know quite a few that have one or the other. I don't think its farfetched to say that most vegans that preach from instagram/twitter/FB do it from an iPhone or android...



Second I want you to answer a simple yes or no question...are humans animals?

chickenIn colloquial usage, animal refers only to nonhuman animals.

Charlie_KellyFair enough, one last question. Do you value human life as greater, equal to, or less than that of any other animal?

RichKidIt doesn’t matter how ethically an animal is raised if it’s killed anyway. “Local” doesn’t make any difference either, the worst farm in the world is still local to somebody. I agree that most vegan stuff at restaurants is kinda shitty tho

No.QuarterI don't have a problem with killing animals, I'm not reducing my meat intake because I don't want to kill animals. I'm human and I gotta eat, but I don't have the ability to feed myself solely by my own means of hunting, gathering, farming etc. so I have to do what everyone else in a civilization does and buy my food from other entities that produce it. I'm trying to be a more conscious consumer and it is completely backward for toxic vegans to say that eating any meat at all while practicing more conscious consumption doen't matter. It doesn't matter that I have cut my meat consumption from every day to a small amount once a week, or a steak dinner once a year? So if I'm not 100% vegan I may as well not even try all all?

My problem is with the production and wastefulness of the animal product industry. A huge chunk of land in America is used for crops that will be fed to cattle and other livestock. This has to be grown, then transported to feed the livestock, then the livestock transported and processed before it ends up at a grocery store. It is complete bullshit to say that eating local doesn't make a difference. It reduces the associated carbon footprint and it supports local economies rather than my money going to a massive megacorporation. When I say local I mean I am able to look up exactly where in Montana a bison steak is coming from and determine if it is a business I want to support. I'm sure Montana has it's share of unethical large scale livestock producers, but I can at least try to find smaller farms that practice more ethical production.

RichKidI didn't say that what you're doing doesn't matter and I'm sorry if it came off like that. It's great that you're cutting back on meat, I was just trying to correct some common things that people don't understand. I'm sure a small farm in Montana is better than most animal farms in terms of the environment, but the animals are still eating the same amount. Although the transportation is bad for the environment, the huge amount of land that animal farming requires is a much bigger problem. You also said that you can't sustain yourself on hunting and gathering, but that has nothing to do with whether or not you need to eat animals.

Again, I'm not saying that what you're already doing makes no difference, I'm just trying to help you make more informed decisions. Nobody in this thread has been a "toxic vegan" and there's no need to get so defensive.

sqeellicbicNo having a goat or chickens is not ethical although I would say that it's far far better than buying it from the store. I think we can all agree that there's different levels of exploitation and backyard eggs are the "best" way to get eggs but in my opinion it still isn't ethical.

As for the fertilizing, I'm really not qualified to talk about that. I'm confident on my ability to convince people on the morality side of it all but I just haven't done enough research into fertilizer.

This is a good video about backyard eggs:
https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/986938/Why-don-t-vegans-eat-backyard-eggs-

RichKidI know you didn't ask me but I'm gonna answer you. Obviously a human's life has more value than an animal's life, but it doesn't matter. We're not in a position where we have to choose one or the other. I value the lives of a human and an animal more taste of a human.

Charlie_KellyWhat’s the difference between exploiting a chicken for eggs and a human for an affordable sneaker? Just curious, because if part of being vegan is not supporting industries that exploit animals it would seem logical that would tie in to not supporting industries that exploit humans. And by that I mean industries that pay “slave wages” and install nets around their factories to help keep people from killing themselves.



Chicken said they are unrelated but I tend to disagree which is why I brought and bring it up.

**This post was edited on Mar 30th 2021 at 11:33:56am

RichKidHe was right, they are unrelated. But either way it's ridiculous to say that nobody should do anything good because they still have to do bad things sometimes.

I_BohrmannVegans are some of the most self rightious pussies I have ever met. How many rabbits and small game are torn to shreds when a columbine plows a field. Not to mention the massive impact a farm has on the local environment. Obviously cow farms have the same impact but vegans are still losers and should get a life.

I_BohrmannVegans are some of the most self rightious pussies I have ever met. How many rabbits and small game are torn to shreds when a columbine plows a field. Not to mention the massive impact a farm has on the local environment. Obviously cow farms have the same impact but vegans are still losers and should get a life.

I_BohrmannNot to mention the massive impact a farm has on the local environment. Obviously cow farms have the same impact

TOAST.I bet you wouldnt even know most vegans are vegan unless you're eating with them. Every group has assholes, example: you're being an asshole and you aren't vegan.

No.QuarterI agree that the huge amount of land required for animal farming is the biggest problem. I spent my childhood driving through the midwest every summer seeing only cornfields and then was shocked to learn that most of that corn isn't even going to feed humans. I don't feel like I need to eat meat, I just eat meat because I want to occasionally and it is tasty. The problem I see is the massive demand for meat, I'm just doing what I can to reduce demand for meat and contribute to increasing demand for viable meat alternatives.