Vail Resorts are killing the heart of skiing

I just want the chance to hit jonesy’s as an adult.

I hate Vail as much as anybody. But skiing has always been a tourist industry/sport first and foremost. The primary moneymaker for any resort is tourists who are renting gear, buying passes, paying for lessons, eating lodge food, etc. So skiing has never really been about inclusivity historically, that's the just the culture that has formed around what is a money making endeavor on the part of the resort first and foremost. And privately owned ski resorts tend to make a lot less money than a large publicly owned corporation that has shareholders and a much stronger profit incentive.

So if you want to get real about the root causes of the shitty problem you're bringing up, you have to look at capitalism as a system. Because the negative effects of Vail policies - rising rents, depressed wages, increased cost-cutting that results in shittier service - have been happening everywhere in the States for, ya'know, most of the last century and a half. Which is a generalization of a whole lot of history, but the trend in income distribution and weath inequality is not good. Poor and otherwise marginalized groups have for the most part stayed poor and marginalized, even while the total amount of wealth in this country has grown.

All of that is to say, skiing is relatively late to the party of being fucked over by open capitalist greed in America. And if you seek to make change and envision a world where every single ski resort isn't owned by one of three different mega-corporations, start thinking outside the box, because these corporations are gonna keep getting private resort owners to sell in the long run. I can't claim to have solutions to this problem myself. But I think it really helps to understand some of the context around it before planning out the way forward.

Skiing is what you make it, if your resort is owned by vail and you just think about how much it sucks all the time... then you wont have fun. Either ski somewhere else or just enjoy what you have.

"goo goo gaa gaa put that ski in the trash"
- Vail

just the fact that the resort is own by Vail make it 100x better than mine

conorsuxI hate Vail as much as anybody. But skiing has always been a tourist industry/sport first and foremost. The primary moneymaker for any resort is tourists who are renting gear, buying passes, paying for lessons, eating lodge food, etc. So skiing has never really been about inclusivity historically, that's the just the culture that has formed around what is a money making endeavor on the part of the resort first and foremost. And privately owned ski resorts tend to make a lot less money than a large publicly owned corporation that has shareholders and a much stronger profit incentive.

So if you want to get real about the root causes of the shitty problem you're bringing up, you have to look at capitalism as a system. Because the negative effects of Vail policies - rising rents, depressed wages, increased cost-cutting that results in shittier service - have been happening everywhere in the States for, ya'know, most of the last century and a half. Which is a generalization of a whole lot of history, but the trend in income distribution and weath inequality is not good. Poor and otherwise marginalized groups have for the most part stayed poor and marginalized, even while the total amount of wealth in this country has grown.

All of that is to say, skiing is relatively late to the party of being fucked over by open capitalist greed in America. And if you seek to make change and envision a world where every single ski resort isn't owned by one of three different mega-corporations, start thinking outside the box, because these corporations are gonna keep getting private resort owners to sell in the long run. I can't claim to have solutions to this problem myself. But I think it really helps to understand some of the context around it before planning out the way forward.

Capitalism makes me cringe. It is terrible how it has influenced the ski industry. I agree that corporate greed is ruining ski fields left right and centre. I've been thinking more and more about how the industry needs more socialist and inclusive policies to make it better for everyone to enjoy the mountains. A start would be giving land rights back to the native populations and for them to manage their treasured mountains the way that they see fit! It would be way better for everyone as a whole and would hopefully get more people skiing or being more conscious of the roles that our colonial/imperialist past has had a terrible impact as a whole. WE need to get way more diverse representation on our ski slopes because right now skiing is the privilege of white people and that is a bad thing. WE should be standing up to these corporate fascists, we should be throwing bricks at their cars and houses and intimidating their familes to show how bad they are as people! WE should be forcing them to expand land claims to make more cheap housing and to start paying the lower wage employees a decent salary. I think 50 or 60 thousand a year would be a good start.
































































JK

There's a long list of transgressions everywhere they've taken over.

**This post was edited on May 25th 2019 at 2:18:37am

OP overheard a few older kids say that vail is bad.

Vail is evil and the rest of the ski areas sing kumbaya while cooking smores at the top of the mtn.

People overreacting to legitimate issues with 10%. Kids who's logic is "vail is like a corporation and corporations are bad" 90%

Some of the locals at Crested Butte seemed happy about being bought by Vail. A big reason was patrollers get paid more. When people complain about Vail they often only think selfishly for themselves as skiers (consumers) and not about the people who work at the resort. Ski area employees are often underpaid when they work for family-owned ski areas. We are so spoiled to be able to ski at all.

LucaSkiManSome of the locals at Crested Butte seemed happy about being bought by Vail. A big reason was patrollers get paid more. When people complain about Vail they often only think selfishly for themselves as skiers (consumers) and not about the people who work at the resort. Ski area employees are often underpaid when they work for family-owned ski areas. We are so spoiled to be able to ski at all.

That's strange...Vail barely pays patrollers at all, they only recently raised their minimum wage because Colorado state passed a law that would raise the minimum wage anyway. I don't think patrollers start at much above minimum - so I really don't think the buyout of Crested Butte would make too big of a difference in patroller pay. Vail employees are definitely underpaid, especially when compared to resorts owned by Alterra.

LivingDaLifeThat's strange...Vail barely pays patrollers at all, they only recently raised their minimum wage because Colorado state passed a law that would raise the minimum wage anyway. I don't think patrollers start at much above minimum - so I really don't think the buyout of Crested Butte would make too big of a difference in patroller pay. Vail employees are definitely underpaid, especially when compared to resorts owned by Alterra.

Vail is not at the bottom of wages.

Location is a big play though so you can't really compare a ski area in NY or Ohio with a major resort in CO.

Aspen ski co actually paid one of the best wages I've come across. I think they realized if they didn't people might go somewhere else. I liked that company but buttermilk parks was death when I was there.

For a lot of jobs like being a liftie etc, no ski areas pay very well. In some areas I've noticed smaller mountains paying better for park guys because they're trying to poach them from the bigger mtns.

I really hate this topic because I hate that I have to defend vail, but 90% of the vail hate is total bullshit.

I lived in whistler for a year and have nothing but negative experiences involving Vail resorts. I had a pair of skis fall out of the ski racks on the new gondola(happens all the time 8 pairs fell out in one day) I missed 2 hours skiing on a powder day and all they gave me was a 10 voucher. I went and complained explaining my $1000 dollar skis are worth more than $10. In the end they said they would look at my skis and repair them since the brake was damaged I was told that they will call me when ready. I did not revive a single phone call or email and when I went and picked the skis up the brake was still damaged and customer service did not care at and tried to say it was my fault. Vail resorts in whistler is a 0/10 from me would not recommend going to that over priced resort

theabortionatorVail is not at the bottom of wages.

Location is a big play though so you can't really compare a ski area in NY or Ohio with a major resort in CO.

Aspen ski co actually paid one of the best wages I've come across. I think they realized if they didn't people might go somewhere else. I liked that company but buttermilk parks was death when I was there.

For a lot of jobs like being a liftie etc, no ski areas pay very well. In some areas I've noticed smaller mountains paying better for park guys because they're trying to poach them from the bigger mtns.

I really hate this topic because I hate that I have to defend vail, but 90% of the vail hate is total bullshit.

Unless they adjust it again, Vail's minimum wage will be 25 cents higher than state law requires in Colorado on January 1, 2020. I think that puts them pretty close to the bottom. Their minimum wage in Michigan is $10.75, that's $1.00 higher than the state minimum wage. So even if family resorts are having to pay the absolute minimum, it's not like Vail is really paying that much more. Maybe not the absolute bottom, but for being such a huge corporation, they could pay their employees more.

That's my only point and it could probably be made for just about any big corporation, so it's not just a Vail or a ski resort issue.

LivingDaLifeUnless they adjust it again, Vail's minimum wage will be 25 cents higher than state law requires in Colorado on January 1, 2020. I think that puts them pretty close to the bottom. Their minimum wage in Michigan is $10.75, that's $1.00 higher than the state minimum wage. So even if family resorts are having to pay the absolute minimum, it's not like Vail is really paying that much more. Maybe not the absolute bottom, but for being such a huge corporation, they could pay their employees more.

That's my only point and it could probably be made for just about any big corporation, so it's not just a Vail or a ski resort issue.

I think my biggest gripe with vail/the ski industry is treating all employees as replaceable. To some extent it makes sense. If somebody is a douche, nobody is irreplaceable. But in skilled jobs it makes sense to treat people decent and pay them well and get them to return. In addition to their skills, just knowing the mtn and the program is worth keeping them around.

Instead the ski industry is mostly people who work a season or two and then gtfo. Instead of working on changing that, the big mtns rely on J1 visas to fill the work force.

I guess maybe VR hasnt raised the min wage in a while. It was 10 5 years ago i believe which a lot of states were at 8. Not sure in CO anymore but in CA i think even lifties start at 12 or 12.25. Not a living wage but it's not horrible compared to other places.

A lot of the independent resorts especially back east pay the actual min wage for a good chunk of their jobs.

I do agree that some of the big corps that are doing well could afford to pay better. Also would probably help employee retention.

I'm probably working another season or two then going to wherever I can get paid the most or working at a small place back east or in the midwest.

The ski industry in general pays like ass though.

Travellingkiwi66I lived in whistler for a year and have nothing but negative experiences involving Vail resorts. I had a pair of skis fall out of the ski racks on the new gondola(happens all the time 8 pairs fell out in one day) I missed 2 hours skiing on a powder day and all they gave me was a 10 voucher. I went and complained explaining my $1000 dollar skis are worth more than $10. In the end they said they would look at my skis and repair them since the brake was damaged I was told that they will call me when ready. I did not revive a single phone call or email and when I went and picked the skis up the brake was still damaged and customer service did not care at and tried to say it was my fault. Vail resorts in whistler is a 0/10 from me would not recommend going to that over priced resort

Customer Service is ass at Whistler because all the CS positions are helmed by seasonal workers who only care about getting paid and doing shit in their off times. We all complain about the guests because most of the time they act like entitled brats. Source: Worked at Whistler for 18 months.

I %100 agree if you pay you staff poorly they are going to work poorly. I just feel Vail resorts don't care about the ski bums trying to enjoy mountain and only care about the millonares coming for there for holidays. All there doing is pushing out the young guys that dont have loads of money and trying to get more rich people in. I had lots of problems with locals treating us like we were scum up the mountain and in the village

LivingDaLifeThat's strange...Vail barely pays patrollers at all, they only recently raised their minimum wage because Colorado state passed a law that would raise the minimum wage anyway. I don't think patrollers start at much above minimum - so I really don't think the buyout of Crested Butte would make too big of a difference in patroller pay. Vail employees are definitely underpaid, especially when compared to resorts owned by Alterra.

What's your point of reference for Alterra? I've worked for both and would definitely not agree.

RyanvdonkWhat's your point of reference for Alterra? I've worked for both and would definitely not agree.

Mostly going from Aspen, their minimum wage is 13.50, compared to Vail's at 12.25. I guess technically they're Aspen Skiing Co., not Alterra (it's complicated), and I don't know about the other Alterra resorts.

LivingDaLifeMostly going from Aspen, their minimum wage is 13.50, compared to Vail's at 12.25. I guess technically they're Aspen Skiing Co., not Alterra (it's complicated), and I don't know about the other Alterra resorts.

cost of living between the two places are pretty different though, i'd say it's pretty equal in terms of pay.

LivingDaLifeMostly going from Aspen, their minimum wage is 13.50, compared to Vail's at 12.25. I guess technically they're Aspen Skiing Co., not Alterra (it's complicated), and I don't know about the other Alterra resorts.

Pretty easy to get a job above minimum wage at any of these resorts. But you need to be somewhat competent

eheathSkiing is what you make it, if your resort is owned by vail and you just think about how much it sucks all the time... then you wont have fun. Either ski somewhere else or just enjoy what you have.

My cottonwood skier friends love to shit on me for skiing park city, sure they're owned by a corporate hunk of shit, gets crowded (like all UT resorts), and is in a pricey town but it provides great access to inbound/BC skiing and stupid good parks so I like it. I grew up on 1000ft of vert that was owned by a dick who only liked to support the race program, but still skied their crap parks all day and night cause it's all I could be provided with for skiing without long drives.

Ryanvdonkcost of living between the two places are pretty different though, i'd say it's pretty equal in terms of pay.

Not really much difference any more, it used to be Summit was cheaper than Aspen, but it's ridiculous now.

Big resorts have always been corporate and soulless. If you're looking for a ski hill with heart, go to a small local mountain.

Titus69My cottonwood skier friends love to shit on me for skiing park city, sure they're owned by a corporate hunk of shit, gets crowded (like all UT resorts), and is in a pricey town but it provides great access to inbound/BC skiing and stupid good parks so I like it. I grew up on 1000ft of vert that was owned by a dick who only liked to support the race program, but still skied their crap parks all day and night cause it's all I could be provided with for skiing without long drives.

I mean... PC's terrain is trash compared to any cottonwood resort, i ski pc too but not when it snows haha

eheathI mean... PC's terrain is trash compared to any cottonwood resort, i ski pc too but not when it snows haha

Oh compared to even Brighton across the pass it's not as good, I mean the up high PC/canyons stuff is great when empty and the whole ridge between looks fun to tour. I only skied PC on pow days when I was working on hill, otherwise mainly hit btown and explored GW all day every pow day then alta a bunch for April pow days, getting alta pass and then a free PC pass through work for my park fix, really getting into this "real mtn skiing" thing.

LivingDaLifeNot really much difference any more, it used to be Summit was cheaper than Aspen, but it's ridiculous now.

idk, only moved out of summit last june, our house was quite a bit less than what my friends in aspen were paying in rent...though it was quite a bit more than what i paid 8 years ago.

Young_IPMCI just want the chance to hit jonesy’s as an adult.

That park was taken away years before Vail came in and fucked PC all up. Was a horrible park trail too.

vail worst

what exactly is the "heart of skiing?"

codizzlewhat exactly is the "heart of skiing?"

Steve stepps show

Only read a few posts in here but it seems about on par with other Vail hate threads..

Lots of feelings and not a lot of facts.

"Muhhh old school vibes bruhhh"

Park kids and van bums don't make resorts money. End of story. "Vibes" don't turn the lifts on in the morning. Maintaining lifts, equipment, and facilities to modern standards is far more expensive than it used to be and VR understands that and runs their business accordingly.

On wages...Once you advance past the jobs designed for teenagers, the pay at VR is the best in the industry. The only other resort that I've seen that comes close is Aspen.

You guys want to complain about minimum wage and all that shit but never address the root causes. Get these resorts to stop relying on imported 3rd world rich kids and you'll see housing and entry level wages correct itself.

Stumpy : Oh you foolish foolish boys. This is how it all starts. I've seen it all before. I was there. I was there. Yeah! It was called the 80's! Ford was President, Nixon was in the White House, FDR was running this country into the ground. I was bumming in a hole in the wall town in what is now called "Utah". Some fellow from Colorado shows up- starts making all kinds of so called "improvements", right? Before we knew what hit us, the streets were running us with lattes!
Rick : No?
Stumpy : Yup!... It got so bad that a fellow that liked to, you know, smoke a little grass or drink a little ripple. Crow like a rooster! Maybe challenge the mayor's son to a gentlemen's duel, is uncouth, "Against God!" and bad for real estate values. STUMPY HAD TO GOOOO! Richard, be careful what you wish for.
Rick : You got it Stump
Stumpy : Be careful what you wish for!
Rick : I will
Stumpy : Alright?
[slams knife down onto table but into his own hand]
Rick : GOD!
Stumpy : [voice straining] I'm good
Pigpen : [nonchalantly] You better put something on that

T.L.On wages...Once you advance past the jobs designed for teenagers, the pay at VR is the best in the industry. The only other resort that I've seen that comes close is Aspen.

Best in the business but you’re still working on salary 60+ hours a week. Your employees that make $12/hr, if you can find them, hate you. Vail can pony up bottom end wages. Their benefits also suck.

Also, you take similar mid and upper level management positions and put them against other industry’s they are nothing special.

Source: I was that mid and upper management for years.

Vail will find anyway to save a penny. It’s worked for the most part. They have taken a hit past few quarters except this past q2 was a rebound.

I

To the people suggesting skiing at non-Vail resorts, in many places that is simply not all that possible. I am a Mammoth weekender, my wife and I make about 12 trips a year there, 2 6-8 day trips and 10 2-3 day weekends. We live in Newport Beach, so if we want to ski a great mountain regularly it has to be Mammoth. I guess we fly to Utah, but that would be more expensive and require more planning. We don't have a choice about avoiding Alterra. In places like Utah, Colorado and Seattle there is more choice, but that is becoming less so.

We spend 500 a month on our ski lease for 6 months, so we don't have all that much of a travel budget. If we did, I would love to take advantage of Ikon Pass offerings. In certain ways it is becoming less expensive to be a serious skier.

That being said, I don't like the trend of two corporations increasingly owning all the ski resorts. There are good reasons why monopolies are illegal.

theabortionatorI think my biggest gripe with vail/the ski industry is treating all employees as replaceable. To some extent it makes sense. If somebody is a douche, nobody is irreplaceable. But in skilled jobs it makes sense to treat people decent and pay them well and get them to return. In addition to their skills, just knowing the mtn and the program is worth keeping them around.

Instead the ski industry is mostly people who work a season or two and then gtfo. Instead of working on changing that, the big mtns rely on J1 visas to fill the work force.
I do agree that some of the big corps that are doing well could afford to pay better. Also would probably help employee retention.

This is all true, but the nature of ski resorts has ALWAYS been around staffing through transients. I did half a decade in Tahoe before leaving, I took a winter off during college then went back for longer than I expected. Lots of people want to do it for a year or two, then move on. Raising wages would help, but it is probably not going to happen, ski areas have always been that way and I don't see that changing. Ski towns are beautiful, but they are expensive and it is tough to make money. They are simply not going to pay the ski patrol enough to afford a house in Tahoe. People are faced with a choice, and many seek to leave and be weekend warriors making real money rather than stay with limited economic prospects and few women. Truth be told, most of the jobs CAN be staffed by people who are inexperienced and just there for a winter or two, there is little incentive for the resorts to change that. One of the major issues is that housing has exploded the way it has. While that is related to the presence of the ski resort, is a market issue, and until people stop buying second homes that won't change. There simply are very few jobs in resort towns that pay enough to allow purchasing a home. That was not always the case, when I lived in Tahoe, left in 2004, there were older instructors, guys in their 50's who had purchased homes around 20 years earlier, before prices exploded. That is simply not possible for a modern ski instructor.

We simply have to accept that these places are run in a corporate manner now. That is just the reality of it. I'm not saying that to say "fuck Vail," I'm just being honest.

Like I said though, big resorts have always, for the most part, treated employees badly. My last year in Tahoe, this would have been December 2003, we had to go to a presentation on how to provide good customer service. This was as stupid as one would expect. Alpine had discounted their tickets on weekdays, so the head of the presentation explained that we were going to combat that by providing better customer service. They talked about making eye contact and showed us a video of examples of good customer service and bad customer service. The way you get employees to provide good customer service is to treat them well and make them feel valued. Squaw never got that, and I doubt that will change.

Like you alluded to before, the transient nature of the work is part of the problem. Many people up there are taking a year off after college, so they have no incentive to do anything beyond the minimum to keep their job. If the resorts made it more appealing to actually make a career out of it that might change, but they are so far down the road in the other direction that I see that as unlikely.

Corporations worrying entirely about earnings per share is not a skiing problem. Now that corporations have decided there is money is ski resorts the problem is likely here to stay.

All the other resorts try to do the same thing but don't have the capital to do so. Anyone with a good brain would do the same exact business moves as Vail if they were in the same position.

dan4060This is all true, but the nature of ski resorts has ALWAYS been around staffing through transients. I did half a decade in Tahoe before leaving, I took a winter off during college then went back for longer than I expected. Lots of people want to do it for a year or two, then move on. Raising wages would help, but it is probably not going to happen, ski areas have always been that way and I don't see that changing. Ski towns are beautiful, but they are expensive and it is tough to make money. They are simply not going to pay the ski patrol enough to afford a house in Tahoe. People are faced with a choice, and many seek to leave and be weekend warriors making real money rather than stay with limited economic prospects and few women. Truth be told, most of the jobs CAN be staffed by people who are inexperienced and just there for a winter or two, there is little incentive for the resorts to change that. One of the major issues is that housing has exploded the way it has. While that is related to the presence of the ski resort, is a market issue, and until people stop buying second homes that won't change. There simply are very few jobs in resort towns that pay enough to allow purchasing a home. That was not always the case, when I lived in Tahoe, left in 2004, there were older instructors, guys in their 50's who had purchased homes around 20 years earlier, before prices exploded. That is simply not possible for a modern ski instructor.

We simply have to accept that these places are run in a corporate manner now. That is just the reality of it. I'm not saying that to say "fuck Vail," I'm just being honest.

Like I said though, big resorts have always, for the most part, treated employees badly. My last year in Tahoe, this would have been December 2003, we had to go to a presentation on how to provide good customer service. This was as stupid as one would expect. Alpine had discounted their tickets on weekdays, so the head of the presentation explained that we were going to combat that by providing better customer service. They talked about making eye contact and showed us a video of examples of good customer service and bad customer service. The way you get employees to provide good customer service is to treat them well and make them feel valued. Squaw never got that, and I doubt that will change.

Like you alluded to before, the transient nature of the work is part of the problem. Many people up there are taking a year off after college, so they have no incentive to do anything beyond the minimum to keep their job. If the resorts made it more appealing to actually make a career out of it that might change, but they are so far down the road in the other direction that I see that as unlikely.

Corporations worrying entirely about earnings per share is not a skiing problem. Now that corporations have decided there is money is ski resorts the problem is likely here to stay.

True. It makes sense in some jobs to keep the new people are employed. Other than some weirdos, most people don't want to spend more than 2 seasons at the lift. Maybe even ticket checking etc. And plenty of jobs in general that you can pull new people into.

I've always worked in mountain ops really so I see stuff from there mostly. With grooming, snowmaking etc, it seems like teaching people new skills, and paying them well enough to stick around would make sense.

A lot of places are struggling to find decent day crew for parks too. The level of parks have gone up, but the quality of workers has gone down or at least not really improved. The amount of people I see that can't spork a feature even halfway decent is insane. Yet good people that can set rails, design/weld features, maybe even run cats, etc, are leaving the industry to do things that pay better.(which is pretty much anything)

At least I noticed in tahoe I've noticed some of the smaller resorts will pay more to poach people to fill jobs. Eventually I'll probably end up seeing where I can get paid the best and just doing that. Would be cool to just stick around, if you generally like where you're working but you'll never get raises fast enough like that.

Obviously every mountain has it's pros and cons but sometimes you gotta go where the $$ is a little better.

Honestly in the end I want to go to some bullshit mountain in the midwest or northeast that needs some love. Ain't gonna git rich in the ski industry, might as well work somewhere mellower where I can do something. Also some of those places you actually can afford to buy a house. When I went to West in NY there were 4br for 100-120 on the regular. Nice houses with a yard and everything. In Tahoe and other places 300k might get you a trailer on 2 feet of property.

Def a bit jealous of them peoples that got in early enough to pull off buying a decent place in some of those areas. Honestly just trying to find a place to rent even for too much money can be tough sometimes these days.

Resorts that dont cater to the rich big spender tourists will fail compared to resorts that do.
It pretty much just economics. Resorts compete with eachother to appear more exclusive, so that jet setters can brag about their condos in breck.

Some mountains can probably survive
Without the uber rich crowd because the mountain terrain is that good and can attract alot of locals(copper, a basin) but most mountains need to milk that money from the goldman saggots and such.

BRINGING THIS THREAD BACK!
The acquisition of Peak Resorts by Vail is fucking disgusting

ElsnycBRINGING THIS THREAD BACK!
The acquisition of Peak Resorts by Vail is fucking disgusting

Peak resorts was about 5 years from going under

The.FishPeak resorts was about 5 years from going under

More like any day now hanging in there by a cunt hair.

This didn’t age well

ElsnycBRINGING THIS THREAD BACK!
The acquisition of Peak Resorts by Vail is fucking disgusting

Didn't know anything about the ski industry 2 months ago, looks like nothing has changed. A good example of most of the vail haters out there. Why do we hate Vail "Idk, they're like corporate. Skiing should be free. Vail is like a circus and there's like tourists, and it's corporate!!!"

I've worked at some of the biggest and smallest ski areas. There's pros and cons to it all. I've been fucked over by smaller places that are independent. This epic local east coast pass is a pretty killer deal. No drifter pass as far as $$ but it's a great deal. And for anyone approaching 30 or beyond, it's pretty epic.

One of the independent hills that fucked me over in NY is $799 adult, $650 for 20-29 if you buy way in advance. They've built some new lifts and gotten a few newer cats which is cool, the park is pile of shit though. I'd much rather get an each coast local pass than a pass there if I still lived in the region.