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Industry Gimmicks

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Bdoobz
Posts: 838 - Karma: 4,895
It's no secret that the skis industry is full of gimmicks. These are additions that go beyond the normal build up of a ski, that supposedly enhance the performance of said skis. Most companies have some form of "technology" that they boast about and claim it as the most advanced system in the world. Obviously these technologies move units for the individual company, which is why it's done, but when considering what advantages are given it's tough to find viability in many of these additions. Some examples are:

Head with KERS

Volkl with the UVO 3D

Lib Tech's magne-traction

among others.

Is there any concrete proof to say a ski with KERS will outperform a ski without? If these technologies are so advanced and futuristic why have they not been applied to other skis within the same manufacturer (not a whole lot of this "high tech" stuff makes it to the park/pipe side of the industry)? You would think if it was so revolutionary that other manufacturers would try to take the idea and create their own variant of it.

I'm sure hours upon hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent researching and developing these attributes, but when it comes down to it, it's tough to see how much of a benefit they actually are. I'm all for furthering ski technology, but a lot of the time these things stick out.

What do you guys think?
Mar 31 2019 1:23PM
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Park_Ranger
Posts: 3825 - Karma: 8,635
Line Afterbangs with the “skateboard construction” were the biggest gimmick to ever happen
Mar 31 2019 2:17PM
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bueno
Posts: 721 - Karma: 4,488
Volkl is the undisputed champion of bullshit ski technology. They’ve owned that title for years. One of many examples; about 15 hrs ago they came out with a ski with a switch on the rail that supposedly had a gs (speed) setting and a slalom (slower, shorter turns) setting.. what a joke. But yeah they’re still after it with that uvo “technology”. Every companies special technology claims are just for show and unsurprisingly get eaten up by people who don’t know much about skiing who think it’s revolutionary technology
Mar 31 2019 5:19PM
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GayWolf420
Posts: 37817 - Karma: 125,775
Park_RangerLine Afterbangs with the “skateboard construction” were the biggest gimmick to ever happen


if we're talking about the "Designed to break" aspect then id say the afterbangs were right on the money
Mar 31 2019 5:28PM
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dubmasterskanka
Posts: 788 - Karma: 2,825
DeebieSkeebies"Designed to break"


Isn't that their entire design philosophy?



PS: JK I kid
Mar 31 2019 5:46PM
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Skibumsmith
Posts: 5441 - Karma: 11,944
I don’t know much about piezoelectrics but I would think that the amount of energy that they are capable of storing in the chip would be negligable. However I read that Head put KERS technology in their World Cup race skis so that makes it seem a little more legit I guess.

Volkl UVO is based on the concept of conservation of momentum but looks like it’s too small to be anything but bullshit.

Honeycomb tips in Rossi skis are fucking dumb as well.
Mar 31 2019 11:23PM
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TRVP_ANGEL
Posts: 12562 - Karma: 117,096
When the salesperson in the shop say "It's got rocker profile so they'll just balance right on rails" and then 5 minutes later "This ones got a camber one so it just grips onto rails"
Apr 1 2019 12:10PM
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BigPurpleSkiSuit
Posts: 9472 - Karma: 69,797
Telescoping poles, I'm sorry, whats the fucking point
Apr 1 2019 8:58PM
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dubmasterskanka
Posts: 788 - Karma: 2,825
TRVP_ANGELWhen the salesperson in the shop say "It's got rocker profile so they'll just balance right on rails" and then 5 minutes later "This ones got a camber one so it just grips onto rails"


"This ski is a hybrid rocker/camber, it's the best of both worlds"
Apr 1 2019 9:00PM
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GrandThings
Posts: 3220 - Karma: 32,778
Anybody ridden the LibTech mangnetraction skis?

My buddy has it on his board and I've used it a few times. I thought there was a noticeable difference in edge control for shitty east coast conditions but I'd be curious to hear people's opinions especially on their skis
Apr 2 2019 11:35AM
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Kretzschmar
Posts: 6737 - Karma: 98,917
GrandThingsAnybody ridden the LibTech mangnetraction skis?

My buddy has it on his board and I've used it a few times. I thought there was a noticeable difference in edge control for shitty east coast conditions but I'd be curious to hear people's opinions especially on their skis


I have a pair of the UFO 105s with magnetraction. Haven't ridden them enough to offer a concrete opinion but I'll have a full roofbox out on them soon enough
Apr 2 2019 11:40AM
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GrandThings
Posts: 3220 - Karma: 32,778
KretzschmarI have a pair of the UFO 105s with magnetraction. Haven't ridden them enough to offer a concrete opinion but I'll have a full roofbox out on them soon enough


Hell yeah. Really curious to hear what you think of them
Apr 2 2019 2:11PM
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Michigan_Sucks
Posts: 515 - Karma: 7,314
GrandThingsAnybody ridden the LibTech mangnetraction skis?

My buddy has it on his board and I've used it a few times. I thought there was a noticeable difference in edge control for shitty east coast conditions but I'd be curious to hear people's opinions especially on their skis

I had a pair of backwards I used for park a couple seasons ago and some UF0 100s I used last year for park. Now have some backwards with tele bindings. Personally I think magne-traction is not a gimmick and I definitely noticed the ski gripping more. If they were more durable I would definitely be using them all the time.
Apr 2 2019 2:22PM
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evaroni
Posts: 3895 - Karma: 3,776
Honestly, “twin-tips” are such a gimmick. Just an excuse for small companies to call themselves “core” and market to a younger demographic.
Apr 2 2019 3:19PM
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Non_State_Actor
Posts: 4984 - Karma: 17,925
BigPurpleSkiSuitTelescoping poles, I'm sorry, whats the fucking point


Having longer poles for uphill; stowing during boot packs, scrambles or climbing? I think those uses are the point, you see them inbounds more than you'd expect but who has multiple pairs of poles?
Apr 2 2019 4:34PM
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dubmasterskanka
Posts: 788 - Karma: 2,825
Would the Blend be considered a "Gimmick Ski" with the way that it flexes?
Apr 2 2019 5:18PM
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Session
Posts: 5404 - Karma: 22,511
GrandThingsAnybody ridden the LibTech mangnetraction skis?

My buddy has it on his board and I've used it a few times. I thought there was a noticeable difference in edge control for shitty east coast conditions but I'd be curious to hear people's opinions especially on their skis


Yah, not a gimmick on snowboards, though I'm not sure about it on ski's. Skiers pressure their sidecut whereas snowboarders pressure closer to the contact points. A lot of snowboard brands use a version of it so it's definitely of use.
Apr 2 2019 5:30PM
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OregonDead
Posts: 6969 - Karma: 25,403
mystery3Having longer poles for uphill; stowing during boot packs, scrambles or climbing? I think those uses are the point, you see them inbounds more than you'd expect but who has multiple pairs of poles?


Who doesn't have multiple pairs of poles? Pretty much everyone and their Dad has a stash of poles somewhere. No one really remembers to change the length of the poles around when they tour and they always are collapsing when you don't want them to. Now Atomic is marketing a fixed pole with a long golf club grip as the new gimmick.

Walk mode on ski boots is the same way. Pretty much impossible to notice if walk mode is on or not. Total BS. It actually might be better to walk in ski mode anyways.

I spent $ on both of these ^ so the gimmicks work. :(
Apr 2 2019 6:04PM
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Non_State_Actor
Posts: 4984 - Karma: 17,925
OregonDeadWho doesn't have multiple pairs of poles?

Now Atomic is marketing a fixed pole with a long golf club grip as the new gimmick.


I only have one pair of poles, how does one end up with multiple pairs? In my experience they don't last very long and right now I'm hoping to nurse the bent pair I'm rockin' until the end of the season in June but one more big fall and they could be done.

The long grip poles are pretty standard euro freeride poles, nothing new there. Who's the new target market on those?
Apr 2 2019 6:22PM
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lastskier
Posts: 180 - Karma: 1,830
Elan M02's and Atomic Triplets with the '3rd edge technology'. Super fun skis, each for different reasons, but the extra edges underfoot did fuckall for rail durability.

https://www.evo.com/outlet/skis/atomic-urban-triplets


Apr 2 2019 6:22PM
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22Kevin22
Posts: 39 - Karma: 101
Also the 3d bases that atomic and armada are now using. Like on the bentchetlers and arv 116s, where the tips and tails are convex shape so that you can slash around in powder better. Anyone notice if this design makes any noticeable difference?

**This post was edited on Apr 2nd 2019 at 7:03:30pm
Apr 2 2019 7:02PM
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dubmasterskanka
Posts: 788 - Karma: 2,825
22Kevin22Also the 3d bases that atomic and armada are now using. Like on the bentchetlers and arv 116s, where the tips and tails are convex shape so that you can slash around in powder better. Anyone notice if this design makes any noticeable difference?

**This post was edited on Apr 2nd 2019 at 7:03:30pm


I would like the answer to dis question too.
Apr 2 2019 8:53PM
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Biffbarf
Posts: 7008 - Karma: 74,159
OregonDeadWho doesn't have multiple pairs of poles? Pretty much everyone and their Dad has a stash of poles somewhere. No one really remembers to change the length of the poles around when they tour and they always are collapsing when you don't want them to. Now Atomic is marketing a fixed pole with a long golf club grip as the new gimmick.

Walk mode on ski boots is the same way. Pretty much impossible to notice if walk mode is on or not. Total BS. It actually might be better to walk in ski mode anyways.

I spent $ on both of these ^ so the gimmicks work. :(


Your poles collapse because you need to turn the screw on the lock collar a little tighter. I was bummed with mine till I did this and now they don't budge. Walk mode with grip walk is a game changer on dicier bootpacks.

You can think it is gimmicky, but I use those features often.

Here's a controversial one-

Pivot turntable heels. People eat em up too
Apr 2 2019 9:14PM
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evaroni
Posts: 3895 - Karma: 3,776
BiffbarfHere's a controversial one-

Pivot turntable heels. People eat em up too


Most people ride Rossi FKS bindings, not pivot turntable heels. But orange is a gimmick on bindings.
Apr 2 2019 9:53PM
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Static
Posts: 8581 - Karma: 4,053
Lib Tech magne traction is real and you can feel it grip more/carve more whatever you want to call it. I still wouldn't recommend their skis though, maybe newer ones are better, but mine are heavy and dead. Skied them today and considered sawing them in half so I'd never be tempted to ski them again.....
Apr 3 2019 9:12PM
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Monsieur_Patate
Posts: 1393 - Karma: 4,307
OregonDeadWho doesn't have multiple pairs of poles? Pretty much everyone and their Dad has a stash of poles somewhere. No one really remembers to change the length of the poles around when they tour and they always are collapsing when you don't want them to. Now Atomic is marketing a fixed pole with a long golf club grip as the new gimmick.

Walk mode on ski boots is the same way. Pretty much impossible to notice if walk mode is on or not. Total BS. It actually might be better to walk in ski mode anyways.

I spent $ on both of these ^ so the gimmicks work. :(


I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. I'm not a hoarder and keep only one pair of adjustable ski poles. And I do adjust them multiple times every time I'm out touring anyway, and it never colapsed on me. It'd be super annoying for me to tour with a non adjustable pole.
Apr 3 2019 10:19PM
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BedBugDoug
Posts: 590 - Karma: 2,253
22Kevin22Also the 3d bases that atomic and armada are now using. Like on the bentchetlers and arv 116s, where the tips and tails are convex shape so that you can slash around in powder better. Anyone notice if this design makes any noticeable difference?

**This post was edited on Apr 2nd 2019 at 7:03:30pm


I have a pair of bentchetlers and I love them. But I really havent noticed any extra surfyness or slashability or whatever its supposed to do compared to skis without the convex shape. possible gimmick. Great ski tho
Apr 3 2019 11:04PM
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MoneyMakerMike
Posts: 1254 - Karma: 5,765
mystery3I only have one pair of poles, how does one end up with multiple pairs? In my experience they don't last very long and right now I'm hoping to nurse the bent pair I'm rockin' until the end of the season in June but one more big fall and they could be done.

The long grip poles are pretty standard euro freeride poles, nothing new there. Who's the new target market on those?

Just go to the thrift shop and buy poles for 2 dollars
Apr 3 2019 11:22PM
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Chunderface
Posts: 2546 - Karma: 9,981
I don't know about Moments tripple camber on the Deathwish. I've skied those skis a ton and love them, but I feel no more grip when carving on those than even wider platform traditionally cambered skis..
Apr 4 2019 12:34AM
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GayWolf420
Posts: 37817 - Karma: 125,775
evaroniMost people ride Rossi FKS bindings, not pivot turntable heels. But orange is a gimmick on bindings.


my problem with pivots/FKS' now isnt the gimmicky color they wanna sell to beaters, but i really think their construction/durability has changed a bit in the last few years, not that they're outright skimping on some parts/construction but they just dont seem as durable as older pivots. Ive seen numerous pairs of older variations of pivots/FKS from years ago that have held up somehow and im not the only one who has had issues with FKS/Pivots in the last three years; Breaking the half-moon plates unusually quicker than normal, have had an FKS180 heelpiece blow up on me, and some other things. Theyre still great bindings if you take care of them but i feel like they experience more issues than they used too.

Not sure what Salomon does with their bindings but both sets of my STH's and STH2's withstood everything I threw at them and have never failed me. I have a slight gripe with their brakes bending but thats an easy fix.
Apr 4 2019 2:45PM
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skiguy04
Posts: 1620 - Karma: 1,188
GrandThingsAnybody ridden the LibTech mangnetraction skis?

My buddy has it on his board and I've used it a few times. I thought there was a noticeable difference in edge control for shitty east coast conditions but I'd be curious to hear people's opinions especially on their skis


Can say it works I rode 3 different boards with magna traction and they are all amazing
Apr 4 2019 3:40PM
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willyg0808
Posts: 4231 - Karma: 1,364
Spy happy lens (https://www.spyoptic.com/happy/happy.html) meant to be a gimmick tho so lol ??
Apr 4 2019 5:42PM
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skiP.E.I.
Posts: 7887 - Karma: 22,458
BigPurpleSkiSuitTelescoping poles, I'm sorry, whats the fucking point


lmao you serious? Telescoping poles are waayyy better for touring, you can shorten them a bit for descending, lengthen for long skin treks or pack them away if you are using an ice axe on a boot pack or doing any roping up.
Also sometimes parents get them for growing kids so they only ever need the one pair (unless they break)
Apr 4 2019 6:09PM
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oxiclean
Posts: 615 - Karma: 689
skiP.E.I.Also sometimes parents get them for growing kids so they only ever need the one pair (unless they break)


That is a gimmick.
Apr 4 2019 6:16PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 52146 - Karma: 168,473
People counting rollers and berms as toward park feature count. Shit is whack as fuck.
Apr 7 2019 6:14PM
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GayWolf420
Posts: 37817 - Karma: 125,775
I feel like there are a TON of directional all-mountain/pow skis out on the market nowadays that really dont seem to special or neither ski really stands out from the crowd and seem like ski designs that other brands have been already churning out for years.
Apr 7 2019 7:37PM
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Session
Posts: 5404 - Karma: 22,511
DeebieSkeebiesI feel like there are a TON of directional all-mountain/pow skis out on the market nowadays that really dont seem to special or neither ski really stands out from the crowd and seem like ski designs that other brands have been already churning out for years.


You mean what the vast majority of skiers are looking for and buy?


Apr 8 2019 2:04PM
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skiP.E.I.
Posts: 7887 - Karma: 22,458
theabortionatorPeople counting rollers and berms as toward park feature count. Shit is whack as fuck.


I love a nice shaped roller.
Apr 8 2019 2:09PM
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snowmosexual
Posts: 1934 - Karma: 10,023
OregonDeadWho doesn't have multiple pairs of poles? Pretty much everyone and their Dad has a stash of poles somewhere. No one really remembers to change the length of the poles around when they tour and they always are collapsing when you don't want them to. Now Atomic is marketing a fixed pole with a long golf club grip as the new gimmick.

Walk mode on ski boots is the same way. Pretty much impossible to notice if walk mode is on or not. Total BS. It actually might be better to walk in ski mode anyways.

I spent $ on both of these ^ so the gimmicks work. :(


I agree that telescoping poles are a gimmick due to the fact that you can just put duct tape or mtb tape on your pole and grab it lower for when you are going up hill and need shorter poles. But for some people that prefer poles that are shorter than "recommended" length while going down hill it is nice to have adjustable poles to have real length for flats and uphill. I use traditional length poles so I do not need telescoping poles.

Walk mode is not a gimmick. Maybe you have only toured on lift access back country where you are starting on steep uphill, but on long approaches or flats walk mode really helps to get a stride going. I have toured in race boots with not walk mode and was not completely hindered, but walk mode is useful enough to not be a gimmick. If only the alpine centered boots with walk mode were more durable...
Apr 8 2019 2:56PM
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Monsieur_Patate
Posts: 1393 - Karma: 4,307
snowmosexualI agree that telescoping poles are a gimmick due to the fact that you can just put duct tape or mtb tape on your pole and grab it lower for when you are going up hill and need shorter poles. But for some people that prefer poles that are shorter than "recommended" length while going down hill it is nice to have adjustable poles to have real length for flats and uphill. I use traditional length poles so I do not need telescoping poles.

Walk mode is not a gimmick. Maybe you have only toured on lift access back country where you are starting on steep uphill, but on long approaches or flats walk mode really helps to get a stride going. I have toured in race boots with not walk mode and was not completely hindered, but walk mode is useful enough to not be a gimmick. If only the alpine centered boots with walk mode were more durable...


Hmmm, you are implying people only need to reduce the size of their poles when touring. Personally when I'm touring and it snowed a couple feet of blower, I'm going to extend that pole to the max, so you little duck tape trick doesn't really work. Adjustable poles are not a gimmick.

Then I think the guy referring to "walk mode" wasn't referring to touring mode, but the "walk mode" on some downhill boots meant to make it easier to walk around the parking lot in ski boots. I'd agree that's a gimmick, but I may have misunderstood him.
Apr 8 2019 4:51PM
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snowmosexual
Posts: 1934 - Karma: 10,023
Monsieur_PatateHmmm, you are implying people only need to reduce the size of their poles when touring. Personally when I'm touring and it snowed a couple feet of blower, I'm going to extend that pole to the max, so you little duck tape trick doesn't really work. Adjustable poles are not a gimmick.

Then I think the guy referring to "walk mode" wasn't referring to touring mode, but the "walk mode" on some downhill boots meant to make it easier to walk around the parking lot in ski boots. I'd agree that's a gimmick, but I may have misunderstood him.

Some people I tour with make one pole short and one pole long when side hilling. I also did mention the advantage of having longer poles on flats/flatter terrain, but if you have normal sized poles you do not need 'cross country' length poles. Honestly, when it comes to touring gear what ever makes you more efficient/safer is cool with me. I just had three pairs of adjustable poles that all broke through the years. Different price point models and different companies. After the last pair I just got poles that were sized correctly and I haven't had any issues or been slower on the uphill.
Apr 8 2019 5:54PM
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snowmosexual
Posts: 1934 - Karma: 10,023
Also big pow baskets are really the crucial piece of a touring pole
Apr 8 2019 5:55PM
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cydwhit
Posts: 5077 - Karma: 43,055
TubeBroI don't know about Moments tripple camber on the Deathwish. I've skied those skis a ton and love them, but I feel no more grip when carving on those than even wider platform traditionally cambered skis..


Yeah, I pretty much only ski the Deathwish now, and I would agree, I don't think they necessarily give me more grip. I do feel like they give me the same amount of grip when I want them to, and then, if I pressure my heels slightly, they break loose way easier and more consistently than a traditionally cambered ski. And I feel like when touring, on icy sidehills, they do have better edge hold.

I've skied a lot of skis with the "surfboard" tips and tails and never noticed a real difference. May just be me though. In my experience taper makes way more of a difference.

Adjustable poles are money. Not a gimmick at all. They're not the lightest option out there, so some people do make single length touring poles, but they're hugely valuable. Case in point, go ski anything in GTNP. My poles are 110 cm long on steep bootpacks like the Spoon, so that they can actually help me out and do their job, without getting in the way, then, on the ski down, they're 120 cm so I can ski well and pole plant when I want to, and then on the long, flat exit they're 140 cm long so that I can go full nordork and skate and pole out. I would hate to bootpack or ski with that 140 cm long pole. If you don't think they're necessary you may just not be touring in varied conditions too much. In which case innovations like airbags and tech bindings are also "gimmicks" to you.

Same goes for walk modes on boots. Sure, some boots have a low ROM with their walk mode, but go for a walk in a full alpine boot, and then go for the same tour in a boot with a good walk mode (Maestrale, Hawx XTD, etc) and if you're not noticing a difference something is seriously wrong with your feet. Again, just because you don't use something to its full potential doesn't make it a gimmick. I don't need skimo race boots. That doesn't mean I think they're a useless gimmick the industry uses to sell us more crap.
Apr 8 2019 8:12PM
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HaydenB
Posts: 1074 - Karma: 8,189
Armada edgeless? I know nothing about them so if they actually have a use don’t hate lmk
Apr 9 2019 2:08PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 52146 - Karma: 168,473
skiP.E.I.I love a nice shaped roller.


I actually kind of do. When you build even a 3 pack of steep clean perfect looking rollers their fun and decent to look at. And okay to ride. We have a bunch of shitty blade divey ones that are okay for noobs to learn stuff I guess. But shit is wild to list on feature count. We have 60 something features on a trail with 0 jumps or rails. Also there are maybe 30 berms and rollers on the trail if you even counted them all.

At the same time our main park is seriously lacking rails. Finally got 3 more bigger rails in the lower section after bitching forever. Also have this useless box line that doesn't get hit at the bottom. Can't put in rails their because "beginners could come in from the other trails at the road there". Like stop grooming that road then. Also even though after bitching a bunch about it it will never change box line is a DFD with creeper ledges, a down up kink butter box(thats steep af and like 6 feet off the ground), I think one flat box, and a kicker box. The flat box is beginner ish but like 30 feet long.

I don't see how having a couple normal low to the ground rails is dangerous, but that shit in the line caters to beginners? I just wanna ride rails mostly these days. After I hit our upper rail line, I'm fucking bored for the rest of the lap. Although our LArge park just added a fun rail line so I'll probably go that way more now.


/rant lol
Apr 9 2019 2:17PM
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skiP.E.I.
Posts: 7887 - Karma: 22,458
theabortionatorI actually kind of do. When you build even a 3 pack of steep clean perfect looking rollers their fun and decent to look at. And okay to ride. We have a bunch of shitty blade divey ones that are okay for noobs to learn stuff I guess. But shit is wild to list on feature count. We have 60 something features on a trail with 0 jumps or rails. Also there are maybe 30 berms and rollers on the trail if you even counted them all.

At the same time our main park is seriously lacking rails. Finally got 3 more bigger rails in the lower section after bitching forever. Also have this useless box line that doesn't get hit at the bottom. Can't put in rails their because "beginners could come in from the other trails at the road there". Like stop grooming that road then. Also even though after bitching a bunch about it it will never change box line is a DFD with creeper ledges, a down up kink butter box(thats steep af and like 6 feet off the ground), I think one flat box, and a kicker box. The flat box is beginner ish but like 30 feet long.

I don't see how having a couple normal low to the ground rails is dangerous, but that shit in the line caters to beginners? I just wanna ride rails mostly these days. After I hit our upper rail line, I'm fucking bored for the rest of the lap. Although our LArge park just added a fun rail line so I'll probably go that way more now.


/rant lol

Yeah I see where ur coming from. Understandable to be properly fed up after a season of BS like that. Where are you working? (if you can say)
Apr 9 2019 3:48PM
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