Your boot could be holding you back if you pronate

NEVER stretch a shell without properly supporting the foot with a footbed first. If you stretch the shell without supporting the foot, then the foot simply falls into the new space that was created. This results in more movement, more discomfort, and increased inefficiency/power transfer. In many cases, you often don't need to modify the shell once you support the foot.


These are the actual steps:

1. Get a footbed that properly supports your feet and aligns your foot-ankle-leg-knee to the amount that is needed for you.
2. Modify the shell via stretching or grinding if needed.
3. Heat mold the liner to the new foot position and/or shell shape.

onenerdykidIf you stretch the shell without supporting the foot, then the foot simply falls into the new space that was created.

That's exactly what we want to happen, the medial ankle to fall into alignment into the space we create with the stretching. A pronating foot is only stable when it is flat, not over-supported with a frankly unnecessary insole. I realize that's the boilerplate upsell of the retail boot world, but for a pronating foot, it is accommodation in the shell, along with avoiding excessive ramp angle in the boot and binding, that will allow the foot to be stable.

**This post was edited on Feb 15th 2019 at 3:46:41am

jodyrThat's exactly what we want to happen, the medial ankle to fall into alignment into the space we create with the stretching. A pronating foot is only stable when it is flat, not over-supported with a frankly unnecessary insole. I realize that's the boilerplate upsell of the retail boot world, but for a pronating foot, it is accommodation in the shell, along with avoiding excessive ramp angle in the boot and binding, that will allow the foot to be stable.

**This post was edited on Feb 15th 2019 at 3:46:41am

You seem new here, I'll be nice. I maybe wouldn't argue with onenerdykid about boots. I can 100% guarantee he, as global product manager for atomic's boot department, knows more about what he's talking about than you.

jodyrThat's exactly what we want to happen, the medial ankle to fall into alignment into the space we create with the stretching. A pronating foot is only stable when it is flat, not over-supported with a frankly unnecessary insole. I realize that's the boilerplate upsell of the retail boot world, but for a pronating foot, it is accommodation in the shell, along with avoiding excessive ramp angle in the boot and binding, that will allow the foot to be stable.

**This post was edited on Feb 15th 2019 at 3:46:41am

But that's simply not true, and not a reflection of a real world solution to people's real problems.

If you don't support the foot, the 3 main arches in the foot will continuously flex and twist. No foot is flat- it doesn't exist. The flexible foot is never stable on its own inside a rigid environment (ski boot) that is torqued by ~1.8m lever arm (the ski), and you will never realize what you are describing because of it. As you move from turn to turn, an unsupported foot will twist like a wet rag and the medial face of the ankle will continually smash into medial wall of the shell when going from unweighted to weighted. As the arches collapse, the foot will elongate up to a full size and consequently smash into the front of the boot. So, you need to stabilize foot & ankle to a certain degree (because some pronation and ankle movement is still needed in order to ski properly and balance) and then shape the boot around the stabilized foot.

Moreover, if you lock someone's foot/ankle into a fully pronated position, then their leg, knee, and hip is severely twisted out of alignment with the direction their ski is traveling. This puts the entire kinetic chain between the foot, ankle, leg, knee, and hip in a very inefficient and problematic arrangement. And ultimately, it causes more pain and discomfort for the skier.

Having been a boot-fitter for years and dealt with these problems firsthand, trying to solve people's ankle problems, toe bang problems, and alignment problems without a footbed just doesn't work. Their problems will still persist. The only way to solve their problems is to stabilize the foot first and reshape the shell around the foot, because this is what works.

razors-chazYou seem new here, I'll be nice. I maybe wouldn't argue with onenerdykid about boots. I can 100% guarantee he, as global product manager for atomic's boot department, knows more about what he's talking about than you.

But, by all means, let's have a discussion about it. And OP- please don't think I'm out to simply destroy your opinion on the matter. As boot-fitters, we all care- we all want the skier to have a better experience on the hill. The difficulty is getting the skier to that point, and following the ideas you've put forward will not get them there unfortunately. And it will be very obvious as soon as skiers return for re-fits complaining that their problem(s) still persists, or has gotten worse.

jodyrThat's exactly what we want to happen, the medial ankle to fall into alignment into the space we create with the stretching. A pronating foot is only stable when it is flat, not over-supported with a frankly unnecessary insole. I realize that's the boilerplate upsell of the retail boot world, but for a pronating foot, it is accommodation in the shell, along with avoiding excessive ramp angle in the boot and binding, that will allow the foot to be stable.

**This post was edited on Feb 15th 2019 at 3:46:41am

No Matt is correct you only Create space once you have the foot surported.

My contentions here are based on the premise that the pronating foot is the most stable when it is flat on the ground, and that in order for the foot to work as part of the lever over the ski, forefoot stability is paramount, and that to rotate any part of the foot away from flat on the ground has the effect of destabilizing the forefoot and thus weakening its ability to transfer weight to the ski.

If you accept these ideas, which have been confirmed hundreds of times in our work at the Skier's Edge and Biostance, then it follows that the solution ia to accomodate a pronating ankle in *its* natural position as if the foot were flat on the ground, and that requires stretching the medial side of the boot about 1 - 2 cm forward and below the boot hinge, usually. In addition, since a pronating foot works best when it's flat on the ground, any ramp angle in the boot and/or binding is going to contribute to instability, making boots and bindings with low ramp angles preferred.

I'm not contending that footbeds don't help, I'm contending that footbed or not, if the pronation is not accommodated in the boot, that is, if the medial ankle has been rotated proximally to any degree by being hung up in the boot, forefoot stability suffers. The result is that muscles have to compensate due to the fact that the bones of the foot and lower leg aren't stacked anymore, which leads to greater fatigue and likelihood of injury.

I realize nobody has to agree with any of this, but this is what we found at the Skier's Edge in Oakland, CA as well as through opening Biostance centers in California, Colorado, Utah and New Mexico at one time. Since I've reentered ski retail (at a shop that lacks the proper stretching tools!) I've seen an average of 4 customers a day who would benefit from boots stretched to accommodate their ankles, which is why I made those slides and posted them here.

As in anything you encounter from some random person on the internet, your mileage may vary, but I didn't just make this up. We've had success with this paradigm over and over again since 1990 and have the recorded messages to prove it. I'm not trying to drum up business for Biostance, I'm just trying to help people who pronate be better skiers by encouraging them to get their boots stretched.

Your slides seem to refer to a valgus hind foot position not ‘pronated’ or ‘flat’ as it’s been called.
This can happen with or without pes planus and forefoot pronation.
As said before the most efficient position is getting the talus into neutral, which needs a good footbed. Which in some more unusual foot types can leave you with hind foot valgus, this is when the punching is relevant, but in reality requires a footbed for talor neutral first.

My feet pronate heavily which causes my knees to collapse inwards thus pretty much wrecking them
Footbeds allow my shit to align correctly resulting in forces applied evenly throughout my lower limbs

jodyrMy contentions here are based on the premise that the pronating foot is the most stable when it is flat on the ground, and that in order for the foot to work as part of the lever over the ski, forefoot stability is paramount, and that to rotate any part of the foot away from flat on the ground has the effect of destabilizing the forefoot and thus weakening its ability to transfer weight to the ski.


I realize nobody has to agree with any of this, but this is what we found at the Skier's Edge in Oakland, CA as well as through opening Biostance centers in California, Colorado, Utah and New Mexico at one time. Since I've reentered ski retail (at a shop that lacks the proper stretching tools!) I've seen an average of 4 customers a day who would benefit from boots stretched to accommodate their ankles, which is why I made those slides and posted them here.

I think your starting premise is the problem. A foot is not the most stable when it is most pronated. It is most stable with the joints are aligned towards/at subtalar neutral AND the longitudinal, transverse, and lateral arches are properly supported. The foot and ankle are the strongest in this position, which is a medical fact. Any anyone who races or skis off cliffs for a living will tell you the same. If someone takes a 20 foot drop and their ankle is not properly supported with a footbed, the resulting compression of mid-tarsal joints can lead to fractures, especially at the cuboid bone.

And, you will never get a foot to be fully flat on the ground- this is impossible for 99.99% of human feet since all human feet have longitudinal, transverse, and lateral arches. Flat on the ground is not a reality for almost all of the feet walking through your door to get boots. And look what happens to the rest of their lower leg and hip joints when the ankle is fully pronated: when the right foot is fully pronated, their right knee, hip, and consequently shoulder are all pointed left into the trees, not straight down the ski. Why would you ever want to lock the foot straight with the ski but then lock the ankle & knee pointed down a completely different plane? Even if you solve someone's comfort problems by stretching the shell for pronation, you still have the problem that the foot, ankle, knee, and hip are super out of alignment and you are causing the skier to be WAY more inefficient in order to go from turn to turn.

I totally agree that you should stretch the plastic of the boot around the foot- I'm 100% there with you to make the boot follow the foot. But, you should be stabilizing and aligning the foot and ankle with a footbed first. Many people's pronation issues are solved with a footbed first and you won't even need to stretch the shell. You thereby put their foot in strongest position, improved their ankle-knee-hip alignment, and you made them comfortable. Win win.

jodyrSkier's Edge and Biostance

Go back to epicski they’re more interested in your wack ass gimmicks thanwe are.

futureYour slides seem to refer to a valgus hind foot position not ‘pronated’ or ‘flat’ as it’s been called.
This can happen with or without pes planus and forefoot pronation.
As said before the most efficient position is getting the talus into neutral, which needs a good footbed. Which in some more unusual foot types can leave you with hind foot valgus, this is when the punching is relevant, but in reality requires a footbed for talor neutral first.

If you supply a footbed yet fail to leave room for the medial ankle mass in the boot, the ankle gets hung up in the boot and rotated, destroying any correction the footbed provided. In order for a pronating foot to remain in the subtalar neutral position, it must be as if it were flat on the ground rather than rotated proximally by the boot.

onenerdykidI think your starting premise is the problem. A foot is not the most stable when it is most pronated. It is most stable with the joints are aligned towards/at subtalar neutral AND the longitudinal, transverse, and lateral arches are properly supported. The foot and ankle are the strongest in this position, which is a medical fact.

Seems you are saying that there is a more stable position for a foot that pronates rather than just as if it were flat on the ground.

What we found is if the medial ankle is blocked in the boot—easy to verify by putting a bontex shim and the insole inside the shell, have the skier find the mid-spot, have them bend their knee as if flexing the boot, and looking inside at the medial side—the boot will need to be stretched if the medial ankle mass is close to or hitting the medial side the shell.

If you don't stretch the shell, that ankle mass will be blocked. The only place for it to go is to be rotated up. There is no room for it to rest as if it were flat on the ground, resulting in the loss of a neutral position in the foot, for what a pronator happens to be flat on the ground, IMO.

There is nothing in this for me or Biostance, other than to offer the knowledge Chris Korich developed in the 90s that we used to fix a lot of boots for people who have moderate to severe pronation, which is actually kind of a lot. Many of these people were significantly held back by the lack of stability in their forefoot.

If you want to make a footbed first, ok. However, if you don't make room for the medial ankle mass, you rotate the foot away from neutral, neutralizing the benefits of the alignment provided by the footbed.

I guess our discussion centers on the fact of whether subtalar neutral exists in a naturally resting, pronating foot in standing position. It appeared so to us, because when we accommodated that natural resting position, we saw dramatic increases in the success of the boot fits we performed in terms of the impact they made on the skier's skiing as reported by the skiers and sometimes, their instructors.

It boils down to this: either the foot is more stable as if it were on the flat ground, or it isn't. We found the former to be true, and if that's medical heresy, we're heretics. I just want pronators to know that if they have their boot stretched for their medial ankle to allow their foot to be flat, they will very likely ski better.

jodyrSeems you are saying that there is a more stable position for a foot that pronates rather than just as if it were flat on the ground.

Not that it matters much, but I have severely pronated ankles. I used to sprain at least one ankle a year until I got proper orthotics for my shoes. If your ankle isn't properly aligned then it isn't stable. AKA if I leave my foot flat on the ground it isn't stable, which is why people get orthotics. A footbed in a ski boot accomplishes the same task, it supports the foot in the desired position. I don't need extra punching as my ankles are aligned enough (with the help of footbeds) that they don't come close to the sides of the boots. I've skied plenty without footbeds and it sucks, a lot. I feel that I can safely say that no amount of punching can take the place of a well made footbed and I would never go back to skiing in a boot or walking in a shoe that couldn't support my foot.

TL;DR: Saying your foot doesn't need support is like saying your eyes don't need glasses.

jodyrIf you supply a footbed yet fail to leave room for the medial ankle mass in the boot, the ankle gets hung up in the boot and rotated, destroying any correction the footbed provided. In order for a pronating foot to remain in the subtalar neutral position, it must be as if it were flat on the ground rather than rotated proximally by the boot.

I agree 100% with your first sentence. You never want any part of the foot to be in direct contact with the shell when no liner is present in the shell. That's boot-fitting 101. No one here or anywhere in the school of boot-fitting will disagree with you on that.

The only place where we differ is saying that it is ok to stretch a shell without properly stabilizing the foot FIRST. Skiing is not a static sport. You can't just stretch the shell for a flexible foot in a weighted position because when foot is unweighted it moves laterally and then when it is weighted again it will move medially into to the space you just made. This movement causes friction at the skin level, shearing between joints within the foot, ankle, and knee, foot elongation, and wasted movement inside the boot. You want to control this movement for proper skiing biomechanics, and this is what footbeds (partially) do. A little pronation isn't bad- it's a good thing in the right amount. What's bad is over-pronation and this is one of the things that footbeds will remedy so that your body works in an efficient manner for skiing.

For example, try doing sole canting without stabilizing the foot first. The kinetic chain from the foot-ankle-leg-knee-hip will never be aligned properly and the skier will always be less efficient because of it, and joints will continue to twist and shear. Anyone who suffers from knee pain due to over-pronation will attest to this (which a few in this thread already have).

Hopping on the mess that is this thread. I should probably talk to a boot fitter, but are there any fixes for lateral foeefoot pain? Some days it feels like I'm skiing supinated on my right foot.
Also, I'm rocking full tilts with footbeds in the liners. Could a liner change be part of the answer?

apc.frHopping on the mess that is this thread. I should probably talk to a boot fitter, but are there any fixes for lateral foeefoot pain? Some days it feels like I'm skiing supinated on my right foot.
Also, I'm rocking full tilts with footbeds in the liners. Could a liner change be part of the answer?

There are definitely lots of fixes, it just depends on the cause. Could be that your footbed is too thick or rolling you laterally too much. Or the liner is too thick, or the shell is too narrow. The only way to know for sure is to see your foot in the shell and see how much space is in the shell and assess the liner and the footbed. If the shell is too close to your foot, you need to have it stretched. If the shell is ok, perhaps the liner is too thick. If the shell and liner are ok, perhaps it is a footbed problem. Just make an appointment with your boot-fitter (who is the only one who can examine all of these things) and go from there. But, there's definitely a fix for you.

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