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K2 Mindbender Boots?

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Chubz.
Posts: 13918 - Karma: 25,663
I saw these on Zach Masi's instagram story a few weeks ago and they look fucking rad. If i'm not mistaken theyre on the Recon model correct? Haven't seen much information about them on their website, is there anybody on here that can give me some more information on them? I'm really hoping my feet fit them, I would love to be fitted for these next fall when I buy new boots.
Feb 15 2019 2:09AM
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cydwhit
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Will say more if I get a chance to review them. For now though:

That boot is entering a very saturated marketplace of touring boots that claim to ski like a 130ish flex alpine boot. A few of the already proven boots in that field:

Atomic Hawx Ultra 130 XTD
Scarpa Maestrale XT
Lange Freetour
Roxa R3 130
Salomon MTN Lab
La Sportiva Synchro
Full Tilt Ascendant
Technica Cochise

I skied the regular Recon and was much less than impressed. Weird fit, weird flex. Also have heard of a lot of issues with that boot cracking.

So, it would be awesome if the Mindbender was super freaking rad. But I'll keep an open mind until I've skied it, because:

A) It's hard to knock a touring boot out of the park in its first model year
B) K2's previous touring boots have been really terrible
C) The K2 boot it's based on was problematic
D) There are a ton of other proven options on the market that ski and walk very well. This catagory is very saturated and any new entry needs to bring something unique to the table.


So yeah, I'd really like to review this boot, and I'd really like to be impressed. And if I do, and am, I'll post back here. But just as a customer, at this point I'd look at any of the options I listed above, especially since there's a chance you could get them on sale, unlike this new boot which will be full price in its first model year.
Feb 15 2019 11:14AM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7160 - Karma: 17,589
cydwhitWill say more if I get a chance to review them. For now though:

That boot is entering a very saturated marketplace of touring boots that claim to ski like a 130ish flex alpine boot. A few of the already proven boots in that field:

Atomic Hawx Ultra 130 XTD
Scarpa Maestrale XT
Lange Freetour
Roxa R3 130
Salomon MTN Lab
La Sportiva Synchro
Full Tilt Ascendant
Technica Cochise

I skied the regular Recon and was much less than impressed. Weird fit, weird flex. Also have heard of a lot of issues with that boot cracking.

So, it would be awesome if the Mindbender was super freaking rad. But I'll keep an open mind until I've skied it, because:

A) It's hard to knock a touring boot out of the park in its first model year
B) K2's previous touring boots have been really terrible
C) The K2 boot it's based on was problematic
D) There are a ton of other proven options on the market that ski and walk very well. This catagory is very saturated and any new entry needs to bring something unique to the table.


So yeah, I'd really like to review this boot, and I'd really like to be impressed. And if I do, and am, I'll post back here. But just as a customer, at this point I'd look at any of the options I listed above, especially since there's a chance you could get them on sale, unlike this new boot which will be full price in its first model year.


Haha wow so no a fan.

What issue did you have with the recons? In Canada that boot is a huge seller and we have had zero issues with it.

The mindbender takes that awesome recon boot and turns it into a walk mode freeride beast. It is not a super light weight skimo boot this is the real deal. Stiff and no give in the cuff at all.

I have been skiing mine for a while and with a change of liner I have them around 140 and they are seriously one of the hardest charging boots I have ever used but they have that huge range of motion when you want it.

Fit wise it’s that true if volume. We call it a 98 but it’s a mid volume. Mid heel and instep so no of course it’s not going to fit everyone but it will account for the mid to high volume feet which currently are only really served by the Dalbello lull and Lange freetour.

It’s going to do really well for us I think and having skied it I can truly say it’s leaps and bounds ahead of the current completion.
Feb 15 2019 12:56PM
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tomPietrowski
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Post up any questions though guys and I will be happy to walk you through the new boots. We are really excited for them.
Feb 15 2019 1:06PM
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cydwhit
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tomPietrowskiHaha wow so no a fan.

What issue did you have with the recons? In Canada that boot is a huge seller and we have had zero issues with it.

The mindbender takes that awesome recon boot and turns it into a walk mode freeride beast. It is not a super light weight skimo boot this is the real deal. Stiff and no give in the cuff at all.

I have been skiing mine for a while and with a change of liner I have them around 140 and they are seriously one of the hardest charging boots I have ever used but they have that huge range of motion when you want it.

Fit wise it’s that true if volume. We call it a 98 but it’s a mid volume. Mid heel and instep so no of course it’s not going to fit everyone but it will account for the mid to high volume feet which currently are only really served by the Dalbello lull and Lange freetour.

It’s going to do really well for us I think and having skied it I can truly say it’s leaps and bounds ahead of the current completion.


Again, not trying to tear into the Mindbender. Just laying out how I'd be looking at that boot as an informed customer. It could be awsome, I'd love to ski it. But as a kid on NS looking to buy a new pair of 50/50 boots at the start of next season, I'd want to have the information I laid out in that post. And what are the chances that it's actually awesomer than any of the boots I listed?

None of the boots I listed are "super light weight skimo boots" all the boots in that list are the "real deal."

On your flex note: "Stiff and no give in the cuff at all" is exactly my problem with the Recon. It had a very stiff cuff that offered little in the way of suspension. A good 130 flex inbounds boot will have a smooth flex that ramps up evenly, like well tuned bike suspension. I found that the Recon's flex had a very high barier to entry (very hard to flex into) but once you did flex into it, the boot gave way in a linear, disconcerting way. That make sense? Maybe I had a unique experience with that boot, but over a bunch of days in a bunch of conditions, with a bunch of skis, that was my takeaway.

Again, I am 100% cheering for this boot, the more the merrier, especially since probably it's moldable to my disgusting feet. But it's far from the only option in this saturated market, so I think mentally locking into purchasing this boot right now is a very dangerous proposition.

How is it leaps and bounds above the current competition? Would love to see stated weights and ROM.

If I can get my hands on a pair I'll drop back into this thread with the full review. Hope K2 knocked it out of the park with this one!
Feb 15 2019 2:05PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7160 - Karma: 17,589
cydwhitAgain, not trying to tear into the Mindbender. Just laying out how I'd be looking at that boot as an informed customer. It could be awsome, I'd love to ski it. But as a kid on NS looking to buy a new pair of 50/50 boots at the start of next season, I'd want to have the information I laid out in that post. And what are the chances that it's actually awesomer than any of the boots I listed?

None of the boots I listed are "super light weight skimo boots" all the boots in that list are the "real deal."

On your flex note: "Stiff and no give in the cuff at all" is exactly my problem with the Recon. It had a very stiff cuff that offered little in the way of suspension. A good 130 flex inbounds boot will have a smooth flex that ramps up evenly, like well tuned bike suspension. I found that the Recon's flex had a very high barier to entry (very hard to flex into) but once you did flex into it, the boot gave way in a linear, disconcerting way. That make sense? Maybe I had a unique experience with that boot, but over a bunch of days in a bunch of conditions, with a bunch of skis, that was my takeaway.

Again, I am 100% cheering for this boot, the more the merrier, especially since probably it's moldable to my disgusting feet. But it's far from the only option in this saturated market, so I think mentally locking into purchasing this boot right now is a very dangerous proposition.

How is it leaps and bounds above the current competition? Would love to see stated weights and ROM.

If I can get my hands on a pair I'll drop back into this thread with the full review. Hope K2 knocked it out of the park with this one!


Which recon did you try? You like a softer flex generally right, i remebered you could ski a MTN explore which I could not even attempt to ski in. It may simply be that unless you were in the 100 it was just too much. I skied the 120 all last seasona and until about Dec this season. For me the 120 was a little soft but I loved the flex. I have experimented with adapting the lower side of the cuff. If you have a particulary high instep adapting the cuff can be a good way to adapt it to get a mor natural flex.

The boots you listed were on par with this for the most part but non ski like it. The ones that do, the lupo and freetour are the closest to it but have other issues.

Try to get fitted for a pair and give them a try.
Feb 15 2019 4:34PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7160 - Karma: 17,589
cydwhitHow is it leaps and bounds above the current competition? Would love to see stated weights and ROM.


Weight in a 26 is 1675g and ROM is 50 degrees. The only walk mode I have tried close to it is a lupo with the tongue out. But more importantly in my mind is that in ski mode it is indistinguishable from a proper alpine boot, that is what sets it apart in my opinion. The only other boot I think flex's like it is the freetour, but that is heavy with a limited ROM. The Pebax cuff also gives it a really nice smooth flex so that may better for you if you did not like the more rigid PU cuff
Feb 15 2019 4:39PM
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Chubz.
Posts: 13918 - Karma: 25,663
tomPietrowskiWeight in a 26 is 1675g and ROM is 50 degrees. The only walk mode I have tried close to it is a lupo with the tongue out. But more importantly in my mind is that in ski mode it is indistinguishable from a proper alpine boot, that is what sets it apart in my opinion. The only other boot I think flex's like it is the freetour, but that is heavy with a limited ROM. The Pebax cuff also gives it a really nice smooth flex so that may better for you if you did not like the more rigid PU cuff


So are these like a tour/alpine hybrid type boot? Sorry for my ignorance I know very little about AT stuff since I don’t really live in an area where there’s terrain worth touring for. (Although my local shop are pushing touring a TON and finding a lot of success which is cool.)

But would I be able to use these as a alpine only boot if I choose to? Assuming they fit me, not sure why but these boots really intrigued me when I saw them. When I get out to Utah next season I would like to get into skinning after taking the necessary precautions, so it would be nice for a boot to be able to do both if I decide to invest in a touring set up.
Feb 17 2019 12:56AM
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Turnfarmer
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Tom-
Can you compare Mindbender/Recon LV fit to Nordica ProMachine?
Thanks
Feb 17 2019 7:47AM
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slashy2
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Tom, will it be possible to buy DIN soles for the minderbender boots ?
Feb 18 2019 3:42AM
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BrawnTrends
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tomPietrowskiWe call it a 98 but it’s a mid volume.


Mind me asking what the point of doing that is? Being someone with narrow feet that only fits properly in low volume boots I'd like for manufacturers to be true to what they write.
Feb 18 2019 5:23AM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7160 - Karma: 17,589
Chubz.So are these like a tour/alpine hybrid type boot? Sorry for my ignorance I know very little about AT stuff since I don’t really live in an area where there’s terrain worth touring for. (Although my local shop are pushing touring a TON and finding a lot of success which is cool.)

But would I be able to use these as a alpine only boot if I choose to? Assuming they fit me, not sure why but these boots really intrigued me when I saw them. When I get out to Utah next season I would like to get into skinning after taking the necessary precautions, so it would be nice for a boot to be able to do both if I decide to invest in a touring set up.


Hey man. So the mindbender is way I would call a freeride boot. It’s basically a boot which is stiff enough to ride all the mountain but it’s light enough, with a good walk mode and tech inserts so you can use any touring binding you want. Some people will use it as a dedicated touring boot but a lot will use this as there only boot as it will do everything well.
Feb 19 2019 11:54AM
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tomPietrowski
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slashy2Tom, will it be possible to buy DIN soles for the minderbender boots ?


Currently we only have a grip walk option. But gripwalk will be replacing the current alpine standard. Gripwalk will work with most current bindings but not a few old ones. But in a few years the only boots without gripwalk will be race boots.

**This post was edited on Feb 19th 2019 at 12:26:30pm
Feb 19 2019 11:58AM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7160 - Karma: 17,589
BrawnTrendsMind me asking what the point of doing that is? Being someone with narrow feet that only fits properly in low volume boots I'd like for manufacturers to be true to what they write.


I actually agree with you here. When we make a low volume boot we do it in a similar manner to Lange whereby we just narrow Te forefoot area not the entire boot. So when it says low volume is reall mid volume with a 98mm forfoot. Personally I wish they just called it a 100mm boot. Mid to high volume tech freeride boots are something the industry needs. Luckily the k2 boot is it, but the 98mm tag is not helpful I think. If you want low volume it should be done the atomic way of actually making the entire boot smaller.

This is my personal opinion though.
Feb 19 2019 12:03PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7160 - Karma: 17,589
TurnfarmerTom-
Can you compare Mindbender/Recon LV fit to Nordica ProMachine?
Thanks


I’m afraid I have not sold nordica in about 9 years so have not had a lot of hands on time with them.

But I would think forefoot will be similar, it says 98mm for the nordica but I don’t think it’s that low volume. The instep will be potentially slightly higher on the nordica and the heel may be slightly tighter on the nordica but I would say overall they would be close enough to try.

The custom shell on the mindbender can really help the boot expand a lot when needed and it’s a very very easy boot to work on too which is one of the reasons Te recon did so well this season.
Feb 19 2019 12:11PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7160 - Karma: 17,589
I’ll get some pictures of all Te boots today but if anyone else has any questions about these new boots get them posted up
Feb 22 2019 1:46PM
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xxACIDTRIPxx
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Pics? How stiff will they be compared to 130 Recon?
Feb 22 2019 4:09PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7160 - Karma: 17,589
ACID_Pics? How stiff will they be compared to 130 Recon?











This is my pair of mindbender 130’s. they do not have the stock liner in though I used the same Sidas foam injection I had in my recons.
Feb 23 2019 2:41PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7160 - Karma: 17,589
ACID_How stiff will they be compared to 130 Recon?


If you use the stock liner the boot comes with try feel slightly softer then the recon. That is because like most brands we have gone to a slightly lighter and less stiff liner.

But it if you don’t care about weight as much and you swap the liner to something stiffer (like most people do with this style of boot) then it is just as stiff as the recon.

I would say say mine are around 135-140 with the foam injection liner.
Feb 23 2019 2:43PM
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freeskibum82
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tomPietrowskiCurrently we only have a grip walk option. But gripwalk will be replacing the current alpine standard. Gripwalk will work with most current bindings but not a few old ones. But in a few years the only boots without gripwalk will be race boots.

**This post was edited on Feb 19th 2019 at 12:26:30pm


I hate this trend of Gripwalk. it adds unnecessary weight and design to the toe piece of bindings. take the aaattack and pivot for instance. those things got so bloated because of gripwalk compatibility. im glad all the manufacturers got on board with a single system and they killed WTR but i just have no need for the gripwalk.
Feb 26 2019 8:49AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6674 - Karma: 10,975
freeskibum82I hate this trend of Gripwalk. it adds unnecessary weight and design to the toe piece of bindings. take the aaattack and pivot for instance. those things got so bloated because of gripwalk compatibility. im glad all the manufacturers got on board with a single system and they killed WTR but i just have no need for the gripwalk.


It only adds weight/bulk to your binding if your binding wasn't designed properly in the first place :)

Honestly, I am stoked for GripWalk. Here's why:

1. You get more way tread and traction than what the alpine norm allows for. This is not insignificant when boot packing and climbing around on slippery terrain.

2. Basically all bindings from commercial race up to freeride are GripWalk compatible next year. This means that I can officialy use one boot from everything from pin bindings to 2-piece/flat mount bindings to system bindings. So, whether I use a Backland 117 ski or a Redster G9, I can use my Ultra XTD 130s and not have to adjust the toe height or cram my boot into a toe piece that was alpine-only before.

3. Better power transfer than a full rubber sole. Part of the reason why full-on touring boots don't ski as well as alpine boots is because you are standing on 4-6mm of soft rubber and the sole compresses while initiating a turn. Integrating a hard AFD into the sole prevents this compression from occurring and your 130 plastic performs as it should.
Feb 26 2019 11:54AM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7160 - Karma: 17,589
freeskibum82I hate this trend of Gripwalk. it adds unnecessary weight and design to the toe piece of bindings. take the aaattack and pivot for instance. those things got so bloated because of gripwalk compatibility. im glad all the manufacturers got on board with a single system and they killed WTR but i just have no need for the gripwalk.


onenerdykidIt only adds weight/bulk to your binding if your binding wasn't designed properly in the first place :)

Honestly, I am stoked for GripWalk. Here's why:

1. You get more way tread and traction than what the alpine norm allows for. This is not insignificant when boot packing and climbing around on slippery terrain.

2. Basically all bindings from commercial race up to freeride are GripWalk compatible next year. This means that I can officialy use one boot from everything from pin bindings to 2-piece/flat mount bindings to system bindings. So, whether I use a Backland 117 ski or a Redster G9, I can use my Ultra XTD 130s and not have to adjust the toe height or cram my boot into a toe piece that was alpine-only before.

3. Better power transfer than a full rubber sole. Part of the reason why full-on touring boots don't ski as well as alpine boots is because you are standing on 4-6mm of soft rubber and the sole compresses while initiating a turn. Integrating a hard AFD into the sole prevents this compression from occurring and your 130 plastic performs as it should.


Got to agree with Matt here.

I do do get that it may be slightly awkward until all the bindings adapt, I have three pairs of pivot 18’s I currently can’t use, but the soles are worth it in my opinion.

They teally do do make it so much easier to walk. Once you try them you will never switch back.

Its the future of boots an I’m stoked on it.
Feb 26 2019 12:23PM
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freeskibum82
Posts: 6355 - Karma: 5,057
onenerdykidIt only adds weight/bulk to your binding if your binding wasn't designed properly in the first place :)

Honestly, I am stoked for GripWalk. Here's why:

1. You get more way tread and traction than what the alpine norm allows for. This is not insignificant when boot packing and climbing around on slippery terrain.

2. Basically all bindings from commercial race up to freeride are GripWalk compatible next year. This means that I can officialy use one boot from everything from pin bindings to 2-piece/flat mount bindings to system bindings. So, whether I use a Backland 117 ski or a Redster G9, I can use my Ultra XTD 130s and not have to adjust the toe height or cram my boot into a toe piece that was alpine-only before.

3. Better power transfer than a full rubber sole. Part of the reason why full-on touring boots don't ski as well as alpine boots is because you are standing on 4-6mm of soft rubber and the sole compresses while initiating a turn. Integrating a hard AFD into the sole prevents this compression from occurring and your 130 plastic performs as it should.


I understand the PROs to this but id say 90% (my estimate) of the skiing recreational public will be sold on it only for "being able to walk around easier". Im curious as to the actual percentage of skiers that really boot pack and climb to ski compared to resort goers. Yea i could get gripwalk soles for my ultra130s but why? i dont need it and I'll keep my now vintage (pre gripwalk) FKS with the smaller toe and be happy. no? They are forcing people who want to buy just boots next year into gripwalk and their old bindings wont work. During the transition techs now have to worry about remembering to place the sticker on the boot etc.. Now you've just made the barrier of entry for an existing skier to continue skiing even more expensive because some company came up with a replaceable sole for ski boots that has grip and all the boot manufacturers were sold on it and their existing bindings dont work.
Feb 26 2019 12:28PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6674 - Karma: 10,975
freeskibum82I understand the PROs to this but id say 90% (my estimate) of the skiing recreational public will be sold on it only for "being able to walk around easier". Im curious as to the actual percentage of skiers that really boot pack and climb to ski compared to resort goers. Yea i could get gripwalk soles for my ultra130s but why? i dont need it and I'll keep my now vintage (pre gripwalk) FKS with the smaller toe and be happy. no? They are forcing people who want to buy just boots next year into gripwalk and their old bindings wont work. During the transition techs now have to worry about remembering to place the sticker on the boot etc.. Now you've just made the barrier of entry for an existing skier to continue skiing even more expensive because some company came up with a replaceable sole for ski boots that has grip and all the boot manufacturers were sold on it and their existing bindings dont work.


But this is why GripWalk is beneficial for a super wide range of skiers. It appeals to the FWT guys who are scrambling around on slippery, lifted race boots, all the way down to someone who is simply looking for more grip walking from the parking lot to the lift.

Your last part is not totally accurate though. Alpine 5355 soles will never be phased out, so if someone buys new boots that happen to be GripWalk, they don't necessarily need to upgrade their bindings or get an entirely new system ski set up. If someone doesn't want to make the plunge into a full GripWalk setup, then there's a pretty cheap way to keep using their existing ski & binding. And if it was big deal for the customer, the shop will probably throw them on for free.
Feb 26 2019 1:52PM
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soupcan
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onenerdykidBut this is why GripWalk is beneficial for a super wide range of skiers. It appeals to the FWT guys who are scrambling around on slippery, lifted race boots, all the way down to someone who is simply looking for more grip walking from the parking lot to the lift.

Your last part is not totally accurate though. Alpine 5355 soles will never be phased out, so if someone buys new boots that happen to be GripWalk, they don't necessarily need to upgrade their bindings or get an entirely new system ski set up. If someone doesn't want to make the plunge into a full GripWalk setup, then there's a pretty cheap way to keep using their existing ski & binding. And if it was big deal for the customer, the shop will probably throw them on for free.


Sorry for sort of thread stealing here but this discussion brought up a question. Which mode would you recommend using on the WTR pivots for a grip walk sole? I know for this season they went with a full new mnc afd but I believe it was the year before where Rossi only used a WTR AFD with a screw to flip which mode from standard alpine to WTR.
Feb 26 2019 3:18PM
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tomPietrowski
Posts: 7160 - Karma: 17,589
freeskibum82I understand the PROs to this but id say 90% (my estimate) of the skiing recreational public will be sold on it only for "being able to walk around easier". Im curious as to the actual percentage of skiers that really boot pack and climb to ski compared to resort goers. Yea i could get gripwalk soles for my ultra130s but why? i dont need it and I'll keep my now vintage (pre gripwalk) FKS with the smaller toe and be happy. no? They are forcing people who want to buy just boots next year into gripwalk and their old bindings wont work. During the transition techs now have to worry about remembering to place the sticker on the boot etc.. Now you've just made the barrier of entry for an existing skier to continue skiing even more expensive because some company came up with a replaceable sole for ski boots that has grip and all the boot manufacturers were sold on it and their existing bindings dont work.


A lot of bindings will work though. Really off the top of my head only really pivot 18’s are n issue and there will be a grip walk afd for them anyway.

You ou may be surprised how man bindings are already compatible. Even if someone got new skis in the last couple of years chances are good they will work with gripwalk.

Next season son will be the real test though We have had some gripwalk boots already by next season will be the star of most switching I think. It may cuts a couple of headaches by I don’t see it being that bad.

And again i truley belive its worth any hassle. It does improve boots.
Feb 26 2019 4:01PM
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tomPietrowski
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soupcanSorry for sort of thread stealing here but this discussion brought up a question. Which mode would you recommend using on the WTR pivots for a grip walk sole? I know for this season they went with a full new mnc afd but I believe it was the year before where Rossi only used a WTR AFD with a screw to flip which mode from standard alpine to WTR.


Matt may know for certain bu I think it’s good to use grip walk in The alpine mode. This was one big advantage of grip walk over wtr, as it’s more an angle pattern rather then being fatter then alpine. So long as you have an angled afd you should not need to move the height of the toe like you would with wtr. I belive this is correct but Matt will know
Feb 26 2019 4:03PM
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onenerdykid
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soupcanSorry for sort of thread stealing here but this discussion brought up a question. Which mode would you recommend using on the WTR pivots for a grip walk sole? I know for this season they went with a full new mnc afd but I believe it was the year before where Rossi only used a WTR AFD with a screw to flip which mode from standard alpine to WTR.


To be honest, I am not very familiar with Rossi's Dual bindings. Every binding manufacturer will manually adjust to GripWalk or automatically accept GripWalk depending on their specific binding and how it operates. Check with a shop to be sure.
Feb 26 2019 4:23PM
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soupcan
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tomPietrowskiMatt may know for certain bu I think it’s good to use grip walk in The alpine mode. This was one big advantage of grip walk over wtr, as it’s more an angle pattern rather then being fatter then alpine. So long as you have an angled afd you should not need to move the height of the toe like you would with wtr. I belive this is correct but Matt will know


onenerdykidTo be honest, I am not very familiar with Rossi's Dual bindings. Every binding manufacturer will manually adjust to GripWalk or automatically accept GripWalk depending on their specific binding and how it operates. Check with a shop to be sure.


Thanks for answering my question guys. It’s not something that I’m currently dealing with but like I said the conversation generated some thoughts for the future.
Feb 26 2019 4:54PM
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