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US Health care

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mulchbrain
Posts: 132 - Karma: 413
I know this is probably going to start a bit of a shit storm but I am seriously interested as to why the US is generally opposed to government healthcare for all. I'm from NZ so I'm ignorant to the details within the US.
Oct 29 2018 6:23PM
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iFlip
Posts: 4543 - Karma: 19,132
This is a topic that I truly believe no one on here can accurately detail for you. It's truly a complex issue, perhaps the most complex issue in America right now. I think almost everyone agrees that we need health care reform. How to do that is really, really difficult if not impossible. America is the most diverse country in the world (not just black, white, etc., but economically diverse as well).

Forcing everyone to have the same health care goes against the American way of capitalism. Let's say that I worked hard in school, got a good job, own a nice house, nice cars, and get sick. Should I go to the same doctor as some redneck who barely scrapes by and lives in his mother's trailer?

In the same light, why should doctors be paid the same? There's the doctor who scraped through med school, barely passing, and got a job. Then there's the doctor who never partied, never drank, focused intensely, sought out the best training and internships, went to the best schools, and is essentially a miracle worker. Obviously he deserves to be paid more. If I can afford it, clearly I want to go to him.

A level playing field sounds great in theory. But then expand it to everything. Should we all live in apartment buildings because they are the best use of living space? Should we all drive Hyundai Sonatas because they're the most practical vehicle? Should we all eat a diet of rice, poultry, and basic vegetables and drink nothing but water?

There's a reason that people from around the world come to the US for medical procedures. Canada has free health insurance. Those Canadians who can afford it come to the US to be treated for cancer and many other things.

The issue is extremely complex.
Oct 29 2018 8:08PM
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mulchbrain
Posts: 132 - Karma: 413
iFlipThis is a topic that I truly believe no one on here can accurately detail for you. It's truly a complex issue, perhaps the most complex issue in America right now. I think almost everyone agrees that we need health care reform. How to do that is really, really difficult if not impossible. America is the most diverse country in the world (not just black, white, etc., but economically diverse as well).

Forcing everyone to have the same health care goes against the American way of capitalism. Let's say that I worked hard in school, got a good job, own a nice house, nice cars, and get sick. Should I go to the same doctor as some redneck who barely scrapes by and lives in his mother's trailer?

In the same light, why should doctors be paid the same? There's the doctor who scraped through med school, barely passing, and got a job. Then there's the doctor who never partied, never drank, focused intensely, sought out the best training and internships, went to the best schools, and is essentially a miracle worker. Obviously he deserves to be paid more. If I can afford it, clearly I want to go to him.

A level playing field sounds great in theory. But then expand it to everything. Should we all live in apartment buildings because they are the best use of living space? Should we all drive Hyundai Sonatas because they're the most practical vehicle? Should we all eat a diet of rice, poultry, and basic vegetables and drink nothing but water?

There's a reason that people from around the world come to the US for medical procedures. Canada has free health insurance. Those Canadians who can afford it come to the US to be treated for cancer and many other things.

The issue is extremely complex.



I see the point about forcing everyone to have the same heath care being a problem if that is the front running idea. But that problem along with the pay of doctors is solved by having private health care and insurance as an option for those that can afford along side government health care for those who cant. I don't know that any westernized country with government heath care that doesn't have that option also.

I well aware that comparing the US to how we do it in NZ isn't a fair comparison and I wouldn't have any idea on how the government splits its spending up . But id guess its very different from NZ because of the different circumstances we face.
Oct 29 2018 9:22PM
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270on420out
Posts: 7506 - Karma: 51,055
Apparently it’s “too expensive”. Yet Americans have no problem giving up 54% of their tax dollars to the military. So instead of providing something that poor people literally need to survive, the US government uses your tax dollars to drone strike weddings and hospitals in Syria.
Oct 29 2018 9:50PM
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TOAST.
Posts: 7454 - Karma: 35,722
Gotta bring down costs via regulations since there really are no market forces to drive prices down.
Oct 29 2018 10:14PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13078 - Karma: 18,713
iFlipThe issue is extremely complex.

This.
Health care insurance companies in the US are also part of the problem.

Im gonna stop there to avoid having to answer to all the hate that comes with describing a system I am not a part of. aint got no time for dat

**This post was edited on Oct 30th 2018 at 3:49:19am
Oct 30 2018 3:17AM
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mulchbrain
Posts: 132 - Karma: 413
freestyler540This.
Health care companies in the US are also part of the problem.

Im gonna stop there to avoid having to answer to all the hate that comes with describing a system I am not a part of. aint got no time for dat


Yeah it seems like pharmaceutical company's wield a hell of a lot of power. Ive always thought that some industries need to be not completely privatized to curb the amount of influence they have at the expensive of peoples health. But again , it becomes hell complicated .
Oct 30 2018 3:45AM
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eheath
Posts: 61475 - Karma: 122,064
This isn't the only reason, but healthcare is 17.9% of the United States GDP, no one is interested in just dropping 1/5th of our economy.
Oct 30 2018 11:07AM
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first_rodeo
Posts: 2385 - Karma: 7,781
For the homies in the USA, what do you pay monthly for healthcare?
im turning 26 soon..
Oct 30 2018 11:15AM
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WoFIowz
Posts: 9788 - Karma: 72,407
first_rodeoFor the homies in the USA, what do you pay monthly for healthcare?
im turning 26 soon..


Depends where you work and if they offer Healthcare insurance as larger places have more bargaining power for benefits. Regardless my insurance is shit- on one side I only pay $40 per paycheck, but on the bad side I have a $4500 deductible and $6500 out of pocket. Single person coverage. Cheers to HSA which I'm contributing the max to offset my large deductible. So technically with my monthly premium and money I put into the HSA, I'm spending a little over $300 a month.
Oct 30 2018 12:53PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51514 - Karma: 160,924
iFlipThis is a topic that I truly believe no one on here can accurately detail for you. It's truly a complex issue, perhaps the most complex issue in America right now. I think almost everyone agrees that we need health care reform. How to do that is really, really difficult if not impossible. America is the most diverse country in the world (not just black, white, etc., but economically diverse as well).

Forcing everyone to have the same health care goes against the American way of capitalism. Let's say that I worked hard in school, got a good job, own a nice house, nice cars, and get sick. Should I go to the same doctor as some redneck who barely scrapes by and lives in his mother's trailer?

In the same light, why should doctors be paid the same? There's the doctor who scraped through med school, barely passing, and got a job. Then there's the doctor who never partied, never drank, focused intensely, sought out the best training and internships, went to the best schools, and is essentially a miracle worker. Obviously he deserves to be paid more. If I can afford it, clearly I want to go to him.

A level playing field sounds great in theory. But then expand it to everything. Should we all live in apartment buildings because they are the best use of living space? Should we all drive Hyundai Sonatas because they're the most practical vehicle? Should we all eat a diet of rice, poultry, and basic vegetables and drink nothing but water?

There's a reason that people from around the world come to the US for medical procedures. Canada has free health insurance. Those Canadians who can afford it come to the US to be treated for cancer and many other things.

The issue is extremely complex.


I mean, we have public schools offered to everyone. If you're rich as fuck and think your kid matters you can always send them to a private school. We all have access to services like police and fire. If you're scared for your 5 million dollar house you can hire your own security force.

With health care it's not as if everything's going to be covered. But anyone who thinks just letting everyone get sick and die is a better strategy can fuck off. Also with the running theme, if you need a surgery and you have some ballin doctor you can go with that.

America is fucking stupid sometimes. If we start blowing up other countries, you can't question anything in the name of patriotism. Even if the bills are $$$. Start talking about healthcare? You sick fucking socialists!

Also a lot of dumb fucks that will forever vote replublican are ultra poor living in rural America. Things like Jesus and abortion will forever keep them voting that way even though most of the people in the party have way more $$$ than them.

With the weed industry going full legal in a decade maybe it seems like a good time to get this worked out and tax it. Also taxing cigs towards it.

American politics are shot.
Oct 30 2018 1:05PM
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T.L.
Posts: 4729 - Karma: 3,008
I'm against government run healthcare in the US because they've 241 years to demonstrate their competency in handling the business of it's citizens and I'm not impressed. There's not one single thing the government can accomplish without massive bureaucracy, over spending, and under-delivering (if ever).
Oct 30 2018 2:26PM
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McMafia
Posts: 72 - Karma: 154
Move to Canada
Oct 30 2018 2:58PM
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K-Dot.
Posts: 3738 - Karma: 7,667
The US isn't generally opposed to healthcare for all, nor is the majority of the populace in favor of our president or conservative ideology. Democracy is not direct in the U.S. and at every turn is marred by actions taken by the wealthiest in the country. The different branches of the government are not at all a reflection of the will of the people. They are a reflection of the wealthiest peoples' preferred way of governance as to benefit themselves the most. The reason the United States does not have a universal healthcare system free from insurance companies is that it does not favor the hegemony. It would be foolish to assume that the proletariat of the United States would actually prefer to be outspending other developed countries for inferior health care coverage.

It's all politics as a result of the fucked up power dynamics of this country.
Oct 30 2018 4:45PM
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Rusticles
Posts: 2179 - Karma: 1,337
McMafiaMove to Canada


I am a Canadian and while I feel like we have a great healthcare system (I rarely have used it) there is always two sides to the story.

I think what it boils down to is rich vs poor. In Canada everybody gets roughly the same healthcare, there are no deductibles or monthly premiums, but we pay very high taxes here in Canada. So for the rich, if we could save $20k+ a year on taxes and our private plan was say $5k a year with a $10k deductible it would be beneficial, however, the poor would struggle to get good coverage. From what I have seen (and it isn't much) It seems as though there is abuse of system here in Kanata
Oct 30 2018 6:31PM
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powderdrunkie
Posts: 2034 - Karma: 976
first_rodeoFor the homies in the USA, what do you pay monthly for healthcare?
im turning 26 soon..


$120 per week for my wife and I through the company I work for. I'm not crazy about it but it covers everything and it could be worse.
Oct 30 2018 11:18PM
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Nickc88
Posts: 630 - Karma: 2,074
DIRTYBUBBLEApparently it’s “too expensive”. Yet Americans have no problem giving up 54% of their tax dollars to the military. So instead of providing something that poor people literally need to survive, the US government uses your tax dollars to drone strike weddings and hospitals in Syria.


The percentage of our taxes that go to defense is lower than it has been historically, social security, Medicaid, and welfare is the real spenders.
Oct 31 2018 12:09PM
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270on420out
Posts: 7506 - Karma: 51,055
Nickc88The percentage of our taxes that go to defense is lower than it has been historically, social security, Medicaid, and welfare is the real spenders.


Just because it’s lower than it has ever been doesn’t mean that we don’t spend an assload unnecessarily.



https://www.nationalpriorities.org/campaigns/military-spending-united-states/

https://www.businessinsider.com/highest-military-budgets-countries-2018-5
Oct 31 2018 12:26PM
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Nickc88
Posts: 630 - Karma: 2,074
Of course, we spend an assload but the budget makes sense when you consider the fact that it can cost up to $22,000 to fly an F-16 for just an hour. The US military is not as overbuilt as many people think it is. Many other big countries are starting to rearm, such as Japan, and China now has a stealth program, and the Turks have a powerful air force. So military spending is important because the possibility of another big war is on the rise.
Oct 31 2018 12:34PM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13078 - Karma: 18,713
Nickc88Of course, we spend an assload but the budget makes sense when you consider the fact that it can cost up to $22,000 to fly an F-16 for just an hour. The US military is not as overbuilt as many people think it is. Many other big countries are starting to rearm, such as Japan, and China now has a stealth program, and the Turks have a powerful air force. So military spending is important because the possibility of another big war is on the rise.

Military industrial complex?
Oct 31 2018 12:58PM
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TOAST.
Posts: 7454 - Karma: 35,722
Nickc88Of course, we spend an assload but the budget makes sense when you consider the fact that it can cost up to $22,000 to fly an F-16 for just an hour. The US military is not as overbuilt as many people think it is. Many other big countries are starting to rearm, such as Japan, and China now has a stealth program, and the Turks have a powerful air force. So military spending is important because the possibility of another big war is on the rise.


We should privatize the entire military to get that cost down since government can't do anything right.
Oct 31 2018 7:59PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51514 - Karma: 160,924
Nickc88Of course, we spend an assload but the budget makes sense when you consider the fact that it can cost up to $22,000 to fly an F-16 for just an hour. The US military is not as overbuilt as many people think it is. Many other big countries are starting to rearm, such as Japan, and China now has a stealth program, and the Turks have a powerful air force. So military spending is important because the possibility of another big war is on the rise.


We're in a pretty epic location geographically though. Hence why we're never fighting wars on American soil, just blowing up other countries.

"defense" spending
Oct 31 2018 10:20PM
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CLQ
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 11,260
we just hate poor people lol
Oct 31 2018 11:29PM
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unsteezedmachine
Posts: 44 - Karma: 268
The affordable care act is not affordable to low-income citizens The current government programs of Medicare and Medicaid reimburse below cost, thus are not sustainable. Near my hometown, many physicians were leaving the large metropolitan hospital. This was due to a large amount of un-insured patients and poor administration. This created a physician shortage in an already underserved area. In my previous program I was shown the differing rates insurances pay for anesthesia unit time, and how private groups discriminate.
Large hospital networks are transitioning from a fee-for-service model to a value-based model. I talked with a lady who was high-up in the pharmaceutical industry. The only solution she proposed to the problem was to have everyone sit down at the table to begin a discussion. The number of models, accountants and representatives it would take left me with the idea that it would not be implemented correctly, or not happen at all. When I talk to others in the industry about the issue, it appears to be two people who have a combined knowledge of five percent of the problem debating. A single payer health care system would lead to worse care for a majority of people, leading to a private model filling the gap, eventually causing the government system to collapse with lack of willing providers causing the people who recently gained insurance to have no possibility for care. As there is a giant bureaucracy, the only wide-scale solutions proposed would increase administrators, which is not ideal.
Doctors are more burnt out, spend more time dealing with insurance and are not allowed the time to have a quality doctor-patient relationship. Patients have to deal with insurance that won’t pay, insurance that is too expensive for a significant amount of people, less time with doctors and bankrupting costs, among many other issues.
I see the whole system getting worse before it gets better. With all of the division in America, it is tough to believe insurance companies and the government will create a better healthcare system in the immediate future.
Nov 1 2018 12:04AM
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roddy116
Posts: 10627 - Karma: 7,421
middlemen op
Nov 1 2018 1:06AM
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mulchbrain
Posts: 132 - Karma: 413
roddy116middlemen op


Huh?
Nov 1 2018 4:42AM
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clorox
Posts: 1728 - Karma: 4,863
My only issue is the pricing system on drugs. We don't choose to get sick, yet in the US, drugs are treated like any other product of a capitalist market. People don't choose to have food allergies, but doubling the cost of epipens just fucks the consumer. Also, if I get seriously injured, you bet I'm calling an Uber to get to the hospital before I pay several grand for a 10 min ride that I'll probably have to wait longer for. I agree with those who work their asses off should have the right to pay for the best of the best doctors. I used to believe that those who work deserve healthcare and welfare consisted of lazy people, but after my aunt that graduated from Brown University and was making ~500k in banking had her husband run away to Singapore and blew all their money, (she stopped working cause he made more than her and they didn't feel the need to pull in a million a year) she was left with nothing and had a serious reaction to some newly developed food allergy. If she didn't have Obamacare (or whatever the welfare based system was paying her medical insurance), she'd be dead.

I know that story sounds extremely anecdotal, but the lazy rednecks aren't the only ones on welfare. I don't necessarily think a system where everyone gets the same healthcare paid for entirely by taxes is the best option, but I would absolutely agree that reform is necessary. I also think that if drug prices were better regulated, people would be more inclined to actually pay for insurance and not just attempt to slip under the poverty line and get everything covered by the government. Also, the only beneficiary to insurance companies not being required to cover preexisting conditions are the execs in a way that slightly benefits the few, and completely fucks the masses imo.
Nov 1 2018 8:41AM
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TOAST.
Posts: 7454 - Karma: 35,722
finderMy only issue is the pricing system on drugs. We don't choose to get sick, yet in the US, drugs are treated like any other product of a capitalist market. People don't choose to have food allergies, but doubling the cost of epipens just fucks the consumer. Also, if I get seriously injured, you bet I'm calling an Uber to get to the hospital before I pay several grand for a 10 min ride that I'll probably have to wait longer for. I agree with those who work their asses off should have the right to pay for the best of the best doctors. I used to believe that those who work deserve healthcare and welfare consisted of lazy people, but after my aunt that graduated from Brown University and was making ~500k in banking had her husband run away to Singapore and blew all their money, (she stopped working cause he made more than her and they didn't feel the need to pull in a million a year) she was left with nothing and had a serious reaction to some newly developed food allergy. If she didn't have Obamacare (or whatever the welfare based system was paying her medical insurance), she'd be dead.

I know that story sounds extremely anecdotal, but the lazy rednecks aren't the only ones on welfare. I don't necessarily think a system where everyone gets the same healthcare paid for entirely by taxes is the best option, but I would absolutely agree that reform is necessary. I also think that if drug prices were better regulated, people would be more inclined to actually pay for insurance and not just attempt to slip under the poverty line and get everything covered by the government. Also, the only beneficiary to insurance companies not being required to cover preexisting conditions are the execs in a way that slightly benefits the few, and completely fucks the masses imo.


Id say along with drug costs, tests need to be reduced drastically in price. My wife got an echocardiogram the other day and the bill was 4k, luckily she has great insurance, but there is no way in hell that that should cost that much.
Nov 1 2018 5:59PM
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Rum_Ham
Posts: 1449 - Karma: 4,482
Why should my taxes go up so some obese fuck in Arkansas who has never even tried to lose weight can get free healthcare?
Nov 2 2018 4:12PM
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mulchbrain
Posts: 132 - Karma: 413
Rum_HamWhy should my taxes go up so some obese fuck in Arkansas who has never even tried to lose weight can get free healthcare?


For the exact same reason your payments to your insurance do. Who do you think all the dollars you have payed but haven't used go to? Think about it from a sick persons point of view. Say you get sick. You lose your job. You cant afford insurance . But I guess that would never happen right?
Nov 2 2018 4:39PM
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Rum_Ham
Posts: 1449 - Karma: 4,482
mulchbrainFor the exact same reason your payments to your insurance do. Who do you think all the dollars you have payed but haven't used go to? Think about it from a sick persons point of view. Say you get sick. You lose your job. You cant afford insurance . But I guess that would never happen right?


Private insurance companies have the right to not insure those people or at least make them pay significantly higher rates.
Nov 2 2018 4:41PM
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mulchbrain
Posts: 132 - Karma: 413
Rum_HamPrivate insurance companies have the right to not insure those people or at least make them pay significantly higher rates.


Right but I think you will find people become overweight and or sick while already being covered. The point is everyone can have access to health care or people can continue to pay higher prices just because they think others don't deserve to have health care. Lets not forget what not being able to get heath care means .
Nov 2 2018 4:49PM
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eheath
Posts: 61475 - Karma: 122,064
Rum_HamWhy should my taxes go up so some obese fuck in Arkansas who has never even tried to lose weight can get free healthcare?


That's pretty ignorant to assume that every single person who can't afford healthcare is someone who is lazy and doesn't live a healthy lifestyle. People don't choose to get sick and when you're poor and get sick you just don't matter? Everyone should have healthcare and if one can't afford it, don't you think we as americans, as humans, should help them?
Nov 2 2018 5:01PM
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Rum_Ham
Posts: 1449 - Karma: 4,482
eheathThat's pretty ignorant to assume that every single person who can't afford healthcare is someone who is lazy and doesn't live a healthy lifestyle. People don't choose to get sick and when you're poor and get sick you just don't matter? Everyone should have healthcare and if one can't afford it, don't you think we as americans, as humans, should help them?


I’m not making that assumption. I’m saying people like that burden the system and the rest of us shouldn’t be forced to pay for their bad choices.
Nov 2 2018 6:24PM
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CLQ
Posts: 2709 - Karma: 11,260
Rum_HamI’m not making that assumption. I’m saying people like that burden the system and the rest of us shouldn’t be forced to pay for their bad choices.


Once again I would just like to say, we just hate poor people.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198075/
Nov 2 2018 6:29PM
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TheDoughAbides
Posts: 1319 - Karma: 4,036
hes not insane. hes just aware of how fucking stupid his supporters are.
Nov 2 2018 7:06PM
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mulchbrain
Posts: 132 - Karma: 413
Rum_HamI’m not making that assumption. I’m saying people like that burden the system and the rest of us shouldn’t be forced to pay for their bad choices.


Like I said , even if you don't care about your own people you would still pay less for your own heath care . Look at every other developed country and there health care system. Its widely known that the US has the most expensive and least effective health care in the developed world.

So essentially you would rather pay more money for heath care because you don't want the sick people of your own country to have it as well

**This post was edited on Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:20:42pm
Nov 2 2018 7:19PM
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WoFIowz
Posts: 9788 - Karma: 72,407
Rum_HamPrivate insurance companies have the right to not insure those people or at least make them pay significantly higher rates.


Buuutttttt they can't anymore. The problem with the "right" was that the insurance companies abused it beyond belief. They're still making zillions of dollars even with not being able to deny preexisting conditions..... You do realize that pretty much every insurance company in America is a private company (if by private you mean non-governmental private payor). When you control the entire market, the whole private "I can do what I want" mindset goes out the window.

With how shitty most insurance plans are these days, all insurance companies really do is negotiate for premo rates for people in their networks. You gotta huck up a big chunk of cash before they start paying for a decent percent. I bet I use more health care dollars annually on average than most of the users on this site, but what's funny is the insurance company probably still profited off me this year because of my huge deductible.
Nov 4 2018 1:36AM
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