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Race boots for big mountain - too much forward lean?

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DarnelFlashy
Posts: 18 - Karma: 22
Currently going through the process of getting some AT boots. I have a pair of Head Raptors 115 that have been my go to for 3 whole full time seasons but want to go touring. I don't want to take these out touring due to their weight.

I got fitted in the Nordica Strider 115 and took them for a spin inbounds after some pow. I got really bad shin bang so went back to the store where they swapped them out for the Lange XT 110 LV (Womens) which I am yet to try. I have a real long narrow foot, low volume, low instep, with long chicken legs which has made getting ski boots a killer for me. Today, with my sore shins I went back to my raptors for some laps. And immediately, I noticed that the Raptors were much more difficult to navigate in off-piste conditions. I think this is because of the forward lean. I felt like I was either over the handle bars or struggling to drive my skis down hill, feeling backseat, and losing power in my tips. Only since trying the Nordicas was I given a different perspective to my skiing.

Am I correct in my assumption that a more upright boot is beneficial for pow and off piste?
Mar 23 2018 4:21PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,895
DarnelFlashyAm I correct in my assumption that a more upright boot is beneficial for pow and off piste?

No. The proper forward lean for you is a result of ankle flexibility and personal preference. It is not about where you ski on the mountain. Case in point: Benchetler, Sage, and Aymar Navarro all ski their Hawx Ultra XTD 130s in the 17 degree forward lean setting or use the Redster Club Sport 130, which has either 16 or 18 degrees of forward lean. A lot of freeride athletes prefer more forward lean because it keeps you out of the back seat, especially on steep terrain. But, this is not to say that it will work for everyone since it is heavily dependent on your ankle flexibility. If you have limited dorsiflexion, a boot with more forward lean will not be good for you and you will want a more upright boot.

What you are probably feeling is that your shins are still raw from a boot that didn't fit you at all, and your weight shifted rearward because it was uncomfortable to lean forward properly. The Raptor is also a WAY more responsive boot than the Strider, so any movement in the Raptor will be magnified by 10 compared to the Strider.
Mar 23 2018 6:41PM
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DarnelFlashy
Posts: 18 - Karma: 22
onenerdykidNo. The proper forward lean for you is a result of ankle flexibility and personal preference. It is not about where you ski on the mountain. Case in point: Benchetler, Sage, and Aymar Navarro all ski their Hawx Ultra XTD 130s in the 17 degree forward lean setting or use the Redster Club Sport 130, which has either 16 or 18 degrees of forward lean. A lot of freeride athletes prefer more forward lean because it keeps you out of the back seat, especially on steep terrain. But, this is not to say that it will work for everyone since it is heavily dependent on your ankle flexibility. If you have limited dorsiflexion, a boot with more forward lean will not be good for you and you will want a more upright boot.

What you are probably feeling is that your shins are still raw from a boot that didn't fit you at all, and your weight shifted rearward because it was uncomfortable to lean forward properly. The Raptor is also a WAY more responsive boot than the Strider, so any movement in the Raptor will be magnified by 10 compared to the Strider.



I didn't have any issues with pain today. The raptor tongue is a much more comfortable fit (and higher too). So it dodged my sensitive spot. I just feel with my long legs, although effective on-piste and smooth groomers, the forward lean on my boot makes it difficult to find a centred, balanced stance. It feels like I struggle to stay on top of the ski, or like my ski is too short in the tip.
Mar 23 2018 7:35PM
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profa_212
Posts: 8896 - Karma: 35,850
DarnelFlashyI didn't have any issues with pain today. The raptor tongue is a much more comfortable fit (and higher too). So it dodged my sensitive spot. I just feel with my long legs, although effective on-piste and smooth groomers, the forward lean on my boot makes it difficult to find a centred, balanced stance. It feels like I struggle to stay on top of the ski, or like my ski is too short in the tip.


Shouldnt be the equipment. The more big mountain/pow you ski the better you get. You dont necessarily have to be annihilating the tongue all the time, although forward pressure on the tongue is good. No biggie, just keep working it and you will keep getting better. The raptor is a great boot.
Mar 23 2018 7:53PM
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DarnelFlashy
Posts: 18 - Karma: 22
Profahoben_212Shouldnt be the equipment. The more big mountain/pow you ski the better you get. You dont necessarily have to be annihilating the tongue all the time, although forward pressure on the tongue is good. No biggie, just keep working it and you will keep getting better. The raptor is a great boot.



I agree, my technique would have a lot to do with it. But I felt a lot more floaty top of the ski in the touring boot that was more upright than the raptor. I feel the position I have to be in in my raptors means I'm putting a lot of weight on the front of the ski, making it difficult to stop the ski from diving.
Mar 23 2018 8:16PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,895
DarnelFlashyI didn't have any issues with pain today. The raptor tongue is a much more comfortable fit (and higher too). So it dodged my sensitive spot. I just feel with my long legs, although effective on-piste and smooth groomers, the forward lean on my boot makes it difficult to find a centred, balanced stance. It feels like I struggle to stay on top of the ski, or like my ski is too short in the tip.


If you look at the skiers on the Freeride World Tour, every single one of them is in a race boot (like the Raptor) or a stiff freeride touring boot with lots of forward lean. If aggressive forward lean truly did lead to problems skiing pow, then these guys and girls wouldn't be using such boots.

The next thing I would look into is your ski too short in the tip? Are you on a center/close-to-center mount on your pow ski? Or is it a shorter ski for someone your size? These factors combined with a responsive boot will definitely lead to what you experienced on the ski. Having a longer ski, or one with ample tip rocker, means you don't need to be super upright to properly manage the ski in pow.

Ultimately, it could be that a boot with too much forward lean is just not for you. That could be a real possibility. The ideal thing would be to get a boot like the Hawx Ultra XTD which has adjustable forward lean- stock is 15 degrees, but can be changed to 17 or 13 (latter with an aftermarket part). This would allow you to easily experiment with what forward lean works best for you. The Raptor cannot be changed without undergoing major non-reversible surgery to the cuff/shell. But perhaps you will have better luck with the women's Lange, but be careful with a boot with a super low cuff. It just might make your shin problems come back.
Mar 24 2018 5:04AM
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profa_212
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^. It's possible the skis are not long enough/you are overdriving the shovel on a short soft ski. What skis are you on op? What speed and deepness of snow do you feel this divin?
Mar 24 2018 10:12AM
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DarnelFlashy
Posts: 18 - Karma: 22
onenerdykidIf you look at the skiers on the Freeride World Tour, every single one of them is in a race boot (like the Raptor) or a stiff freeride touring boot with lots of forward lean. If aggressive forward lean truly did lead to problems skiing pow, then these guys and girls wouldn't be using such boots.

The next thing I would look into is your ski too short in the tip? Are you on a center/close-to-center mount on your pow ski? Or is it a shorter ski for someone your size? These factors combined with a responsive boot will definitely lead to what you experienced on the ski. Having a longer ski, or one with ample tip rocker, means you don't need to be super upright to properly manage the ski in pow.

Ultimately, it could be that a boot with too much forward lean is just not for you. That could be a real possibility. The ideal thing would be to get a boot like the Hawx Ultra XTD which has adjustable forward lean- stock is 15 degrees, but can be changed to 17 or 13 (latter with an aftermarket part). This would allow you to easily experiment with what forward lean works best for you. The Raptor cannot be changed without undergoing major non-reversible surgery to the cuff/shell. But perhaps you will have better luck with the women's Lange, but be careful with a boot with a super low cuff. It just might make your shin problems come back.


I am 5'9 (175cm tall). My skis are 178.3cm and this was the recommended length for me. Bindings have been mounted at standard manufacturer recommendation.

I was speaking to an experienced instructor yesterday. She said because I'm tall, a forward leaning boot will lead me to drop my hips - which I absolutely agree with. This leaves me in a "sitting" position. It's when I adjust my hip angle forward to compensate I feel unstable and too far forward. Opening up the hip angle back up then moves me into the backseat on steep terrain.

Yes, my main concern is how a womens boot will fit me best being low volume, but I need the cuff height.
Mar 24 2018 12:39PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,895
DarnelFlashyI am 5'9 (175cm tall). My skis are 178.3cm and this was the recommended length for me. Bindings have been mounted at standard manufacturer recommendation.

I was speaking to an experienced instructor yesterday. She said because I'm tall, a forward leaning boot will lead me to drop my hips - which I absolutely agree with. This leaves me in a "sitting" position. It's when I adjust my hip angle forward to compensate I feel unstable and too far forward. Opening up the hip angle back up then moves me into the backseat on steep terrain.

Yes, my main concern is how a womens boot will fit me best being low volume, but I need the cuff height.


You're definitely not what I would consider tall, but at least you were with someone who can see you ski. Skis sound like they are ok, but not on the long side. Just out of curiosity, what are they?

There's no difference in the lower shell between a women's Lange and a men's Lange- the shell is exactly the same, but the cuff is lower on the women's, and the liner is furrier. With someone your height, I would imagine that a men's boot would fit your leg much better.
Mar 24 2018 1:07PM
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DarnelFlashy
Posts: 18 - Karma: 22
onenerdykidYou're definitely not what I would consider tall, but at least you were with someone who can see you ski. Skis sound like they are ok, but not on the long side. Just out of curiosity, what are they?

There's no difference in the lower shell between a women's Lange and a men's Lange- the shell is exactly the same, but the cuff is lower on the women's, and the liner is furrier. With someone your height, I would imagine that a men's boot would fit your leg much better.


Thank you, that's what I'm worried about. Unfortunately at this stage of the season I am unable to find the Mens Lange XT 130 LV in a 24.5. The bootfitter also said that boot would be too stiff for me anyway but touring boots aren't really true to stiffness are they? There is a Lange XT 110 in mens but it's not low volume. Do you think it would be worth waiting until next season? I was really hoping to get something to start touring and be more comfortable in an AST course. I really don't think I will enjoy touring with my raptors and frame bindings.

I am tall for a woman but I'm also un-proportioned - long legs / short torso. Looks really awkward when reviewing video footage of me skiing. Instructors sometimes comment when they realise how long my femurs are.
Mar 24 2018 1:14PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,895
DarnelFlashyThank you, that's what I'm worried about. Unfortunately at this stage of the season I am unable to find the Mens Lange XT 130 LV in a 24.5. The bootfitter also said that boot would be too stiff for me anyway but touring boots aren't really true to stiffness are they? There is a Lange XT 110 in mens but it's not low volume. Do you think it would be worth waiting until next season? I was really hoping to get something to start touring and be more comfortable in an AST course. I really don't think I will enjoy touring with my raptors and frame bindings.

I am tall for a woman but I'm also un-proportioned - long legs / short torso. Looks really awkward when reviewing video footage of me skiing. Instructors sometimes comment when they realise how long my femurs are.

Ah ok, I failed to grasp that you are a woman (blue name through me off). Yes, touring in Raptors will be less than fun... unfortunately, at this point in the season, shops have a very limited selection of boots to chose from. All of the "cool" boots are usually sold out by January. If you can't find a solution now, perhaps it would be best to wait until September/October when shops have their full section of boots to chose from.
Mar 24 2018 1:58PM
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DarnelFlashy
Posts: 18 - Karma: 22
onenerdykidAh ok, I failed to grasp that you are a woman (blue name through me off). Yes, touring in Raptors will be less than fun... unfortunately, at this point in the season, shops have a very limited selection of boots to chose from. All of the "cool" boots are usually sold out by January. If you can't find a solution now, perhaps it would be best to wait until September/October when shops have their full section of boots to chose from.


Unfortunately working ski seasons means the funds are never there at the start of the season. Are there other boots I should be looking at - like more touring style vs Lange freetour that a truly low volume?
Mar 24 2018 2:10PM
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Oceanic1
Posts: 7 - Karma: 12
Which Raptors are you in, the 98 mm lasted RS? Or the 95mm lasted B5?

Is the binding delta on the skis you've been using for powder the same as the binding delta on the skis you usually use with your Raptors?

The Hawx Ultra XTD really worked for me because (as onenerdykid has already mentioned) you can play with different forward lean settings until you find what works for you.

The Ultra XTD is built on a 98mm last. The Atomic last measurements relate to a size 26.5. , I think (not certain) that the Head last measurements relate to a size 27.5. Obviously the last measurement is only a one dimensional measurement, so it is of limited use in working out if the Ultra XTD will fit you.

Please forgive me if I'm telling you stuff you already know, it's easy to fall into the trap of mansplaining when you're talking to somebody that you've never met.

**This post was edited on Mar 24th 2018 at 3:26:33pm
Mar 24 2018 3:02PM
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DarnelFlashy
Posts: 18 - Karma: 22
Oceanic1Which Raptors are you in, the 98 mm lasted RS? Or the 95mm lasted B5?

Is the binding delta on the skis you've been using for powder the same as the binding delta on the skis you usually use with your Raptors?

The Hawx Ultra XTD really worked for me because (as onenerdykid has already mentioned) you can play with different forward lean settings until you find what works for you.

The Ultra XTD is built on a 98mm last. The Atomic last measurements relate to a size 26.5. , I think (not certain) that the Head last measurements relate to a size 27.5. Obviously the last measurement is only a one dimensional measurement, so it is of limited use in working out if the Ultra XTD will fit you.

Please forgive me if I'm telling you stuff you already know, it's easy to fall into the trap of mansplaining when you're talking to somebody that you've never met.

**This post was edited on Mar 24th 2018 at 3:26:33pm


No, please. I'm a bit of a tech head and love the science behind skiing and how our bio-mechanics relate to our gear. The more information I get the better. I'm working my fourth ski season now but the whole touring component is new to me but I want to give it a shot.

I have the 115 RS Raptor. I believe with my 25.5 size it's a 96mm last. I invested quite a bit in these boots with a well made footbed, foam injected liner and have them cantered and vibram plates on the bottom. I ended up skiing in the women's Lange XT 110 LV, size 24.5 and not luck. Shin bang :( I believe I may have to wait for next season to invest in some boots and am looking at the Lange XT 120 LV (Mens) with a higher cuff and maybe add an intuition liner.

I really want to give touring a go and have the opportunity to go on a guided tour in an "Intro" group for people who haven't toured before. I would be using frame bindings and hikes would be 1 hour. Would I be okay to try in my Raptors or should I look at renting some touring boots?
Mar 26 2018 4:20PM
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.MASSHOLE.
Posts: 7481 - Karma: 11,497
DarnelFlashyI really want to give touring a go and have the opportunity to go on a guided tour in an "Intro" group for people who haven't toured before. I would be using frame bindings and hikes would be 1 hour. Would I be okay to try in my Raptors or should I look at renting some touring boots?


Comfortable boots>all else.

If your feet are sad, you'll hate touring no matter what boots you're in.

If you can spend a day skiing in your boots w/o pain you can almost definitely tour in them. You just need to make sure you have good heel hold and not a super-duper performance fit (think race boot plug fit w/ minimal space). If you have both of those things you should be good to go.

An hour isn't that long so any issues you do have you should be able to suffer through for the day.
Mar 26 2018 4:56PM
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DarnelFlashy
Posts: 18 - Karma: 22
.MASSHOLE.Comfortable boots>all else.

If your feet are sad, you'll hate touring no matter what boots you're in. .


My feet are happy in my race boots. I have spent three seasons in them doing pretty much anything from walking around teaching 5 year old Level 1s without putting my skis on all day, to sitting in an office at a computer. I main concern when looking at investing in touring boots was weight and lack of walk mode. I do walk in my race boots regularly.
Mar 26 2018 5:04PM
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Oceanic1
Posts: 7 - Karma: 12
DarnelFlashyI have the 115 RS Raptor. I believe with my 25.5 size it's a 96mm last. I invested quite a bit in these boots with a well made footbed, foam injected liner and have them cantered


The Head Raptor Technical Manual is online, I just checked, the 25.5 RS Raptor is 94mm wide.

The Italian magazine Skialper measured a load of touring boots, according to their measurements the Lange LV is the only freeride touring boot that narrow. Of the true touring boots they measured, the Atomic Backland and Salomon X-Alp shells are similar / narrower than your Raptors shells (but the stock liners in the touring boots are probably thinner than the foamed liners in your Raptors).

If your Raptors are canted you might consider putting canting shims under your touring bindings when you eventually buy touring skis.

When you skied powder with your Raptors, what skis and bindings were you using?

**This post was edited on Mar 26th 2018 at 6:38:15pm
Mar 26 2018 6:33PM
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DarnelFlashy
Posts: 18 - Karma: 22
Oceanic1When you skied powder with your Raptors, what skis and bindings were you using?

**This post was edited on Mar 26th 2018 at 6:38:15pm


I have skied both the Rossignol Soul 7s and my Black Crows Atris Birdie in my Head Raptors. Today I tried the Lange XT boots with, and without a rear spoiler and I much preferred without. I'm pretty sure my toes are over my knees in the Raptors.
Mar 26 2018 7:18PM
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DarnelFlashy
Posts: 18 - Karma: 22
I'm tossing up whether to go touring in my Raptors tomorrow. Full day with multiple 1 hour hikes in frame bindings.
Mar 26 2018 7:19PM
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.MASSHOLE.
Posts: 7481 - Karma: 11,497
DarnelFlashyI'm tossing up whether to go touring in my Raptors tomorrow. Full day with multiple 1 hour hikes in frame bindings.


Do it. Whats your alternative?
Mar 26 2018 8:12PM
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DarnelFlashy
Posts: 18 - Karma: 22
.MASSHOLE.Do it. Whats your alternative?


Haha, not do it.
Mar 26 2018 8:22PM
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.MASSHOLE.
Posts: 7481 - Karma: 11,497
DarnelFlashyHaha, not do it.


I'd say do it. Bring some moleskin and you'll be good.
Mar 26 2018 8:24PM
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GayWolf420
Posts: 37387 - Karma: 120,121
DarnelFlashyI'm tossing up whether to go touring in my Raptors tomorrow. Full day with multiple 1 hour hikes in frame bindings.


just take her easy, ive done a few treks out on guardians in RX130s. They're broken in since having them for years but its do-able.




personally feel like i cant go below a 130 flex boot, it just feels right and lets you really stay on top of the skis and drive them hard.
Mar 26 2018 9:29PM
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DarnelFlashy
Posts: 18 - Karma: 22
.MASSHOLE.I'd say do it. Bring some moleskin and you'll be good.


I went and bought some this evening. Thanks!
Mar 26 2018 10:21PM
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OregonDead
Posts: 6890 - Karma: 24,556
DarnelFlashyI'm tossing up whether to go touring in my Raptors tomorrow. Full day with multiple 1 hour hikes in frame bindings.


So far I've done all of my touring in my Nordica Dobermanns including my Avy 1 class. Worked just fine and I've never got a blister. I am looking to find a boot with a walk mode but the race boots work so go have fun.
Mar 27 2018 12:13PM
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tfsh
Posts: 190 - Karma: 554
First off, adressing the whole big mountain, foward lean thing. As other people said, its all preference and physical makeup. I compete big mountain and have always competed in various race boots (Lange RS130, Dalbello DRS and now fischer RC4). Heres the thing. I throutougly believ hike mode boots are less eficient when hiking. Instead of minimizing your step and sride, you are maximizing it. While it may be more comfterble, you are subsequently using more energy. Granted, the lighter the boot, the more it makes up for thus, however for me, the performance a lug sole race boots gives could never be matched by a 50/50 touring boot. The past 3 or 4 years ive gotten super big into sidecountry and medium hikes (30-45 mins) for those short hikes, you loose so much performance for a littl bit of comfort with a hiek boot. My biggest gripe with hiking in non touring boots is not the actual walk mode, but the soles. Walking in race boots can get extremly sketchy on tight bootpacks, they tend to wear down very quickly, and also snow seems to accumulate allot making clicking back into your skis more challenging.
Mar 27 2018 1:00PM
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OregonDead
Posts: 6890 - Karma: 24,556
tfshWalking in race boots can get extremly sketchy on tight bootpacks, they tend to wear down very quickly, and also snow seems to accumulate allot making clicking back into your skis more challenging.

I have had a ton of trouble with snow and ice build up on the soles of my dobermanns. Seems way worse than any one I ski with that has a rubberized replaceable type sole.
Mar 27 2018 1:22PM
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tfsh
Posts: 190 - Karma: 554
OregonDeadI have had a ton of trouble with snow and ice build up on the soles of my dobermanns. Seems way worse than any one I ski with that has a rubberized replaceable type sole.


Yep. You think it would be the opposite, but lug sole boots seem to grab so much snow. I think it makes walking around town and in shops etc so much more sketchy, and right boot packs can get really sketchy too if the snow is slippery enough. Best bet is to bring them to a shop and have them grind down the sole and put in a rubberized one.
Mar 27 2018 4:23PM
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DarnelFlashy
Posts: 18 - Karma: 22
Toured today in my head raptors. 3 hikes. Half way through the second hike I started feeling a blister on the back of my heel. This boot isn't as well fitting as my other and I experience heel lift. I had some kt tape and moleskin so I took of my boots and applied. The last hike I started really started feeling the weight of the boot, but overall happy with how it went. Looking forward to eventually getting some lighter boots.

**This post was edited on Mar 28th 2018 at 2:57:52am
Mar 28 2018 2:57AM
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