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zuesTell me again how guns are the issue.
IsitWinterYet17"Theory", but remember how many guns exist already in the USA and how easy it is to get them from Mexico. Remember the fast and furious operation to track guns and how well that worked. Truth is guns are everywhere and are impossible to track. There's more guns than people in the USA. Even if they are banned, they aren't going anywhere. A buyback is fiscally impossible, so guns will still exist and just get shuffled between owners. Even if the USA bans all guns, they will still exist and more will still be smuggled across the border.
TheHamburglar“In countries without the abundance and ready access to guns, we see perpetrators resorting to what’s available,” Kivisto added. “While knives, automobiles and explosives can inflict significant harm, this study’s findings reinforce what we know - which is that guns provide one of the most efficient means of killing large numbers of people.”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-terrorism-firearms/terror-attacks-in-u-s-more-likely-than-elsewhere-to-involve-guns-idUSKBN1CE24G
TheHamburglar“In countries without the abundance and ready access to guns, we see perpetrators resorting to what’s available,” Kivisto added. “While knives, automobiles and explosives can inflict significant harm, this study’s findings reinforce what we know - which is that guns provide one of the most efficient means of killing large numbers of people.”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-terrorism-firearms/terror-attacks-in-u-s-more-likely-than-elsewhere-to-involve-guns-idUSKBN1CE24G
zuesI can tell you're one of those people that thinks more government will solve the problem
zuesThanks for reinforcing my point.
onenerdykidAnd right now, that is exactly what the government is doing.
onenerdykidI can tell that you're one of those people who thinks that less government will solve everything. Please.
It should be pretty clear that without government regulation, that businesses/banks would shit all over everything if given the chance if it improved their profitability, which history time and time again shows they do. The free market is a myth, it doesn't work.
If the government actually had the interest of the public/tax payers in mind, then yes government would be a very good thing. But as long as they put business interests ahead of public interest, there will always be a huge problem. And right now, that is exactly what the government is doing.
TheHamburglarWow, your reading comprehension must be ineffectual at most, as the point of the article went directly over your head regarding the efficiency in killing with guns versus any other means. You not only failed to provide an adequate argument against stricter gun control, but you continue to evade the question and shift the topic of discussion. Do you see why this discussion is so frustrating for us sane people in the US?
Stilll waiting for an intelligent pro gun boy to provide a solid argument against stricter gun control.
zuesStop trying to make this a gun issue
IsitWinterYet17This thread is hawwtttttt. People just arguing back and forth saying different versions of the same goddamn thing. This is why no gun control legislation has been passed in addition to gun lobbying. We are too divided and closed minded.
Disclaimer: I'm a gun owner
zuesNo my point is that guns are only a fraction of the problems we're
Again you can kill people with trucks, poison, weapons.... whatever you want. Stop trying to make this a gun issue
zuesNo my point is that guns are only a fraction of the problems we're facing. It's really hatred and loathing of people because of mental / religious /racial reasons. You're trying to mask a gun problem with a societal problem.
Again you can kill people with trucks, poison, weapons.... whatever you want. Stop trying to make this a gun issue
ESBYou can kill people with a potato, a lawn mower, a grapefruit, an inflatable swimming pool, six inches of syran wrap, a five-foot extension cord.... you can prick someone a thousand times with a paper clip... you can force-feed someone too much water.
It's just, people use guns WAY more often, because it's way, way easier than using a potato, a grapefruit or a paper clip.
zuesNo my point is that guns are only a fraction of the problems we're facing. It's really hatred and loathing of people because of mental / religious /racial reasons. You're trying to mask a gun problem with a societal problem.
Again you can kill people with trucks, poison, weapons.... whatever you want. Stop trying to make this a gun issue
zuesAgain you can kill people with trucks, poison, weapons.... whatever you want. Stop trying to make this a gun issue
zuesExactly my point. Lets make them illegal so now only the bad people still have them... makes zero sense to me.
zuesWhat most people don't understand is that automatic weapons are already illegal and banned.
ESBNo one is suggesting that all guns be made illegal.
People are suggesting that:
- the federal background check apparatus be strengthened
- the people with a proven state of mental illness / threat to others should not be able to acquire firearms
- new minimum age laws should be considered, so that it's not easier to buy a gun than it is to buy cigarettes or alcohol
- Gun owners should undergo mandatory firearms training before acquiring a firearm
Any thoughts on any of that?
ESBLiterally everyone understands this.
What everyone also understands its that it's currently fully legal to modify a weapon with a bump stock and an extended clip so that the difference between a full-auto and a semi-auto is negligible.
The classic rebuttal to your argument of "well criminals are just going to do it anyway so why should we make certain things illegal" is this: murder is illegal, but criminals commit murder anyway. Does this mean that a law against murder is futile and should be abolished?
zuesI hear what you're saying and bump stocks will be illegal soon
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/us/politics/trump-bump-stocks.html
But you honestly think that's going to solve the problem? Ultimately making guns illegal will be the last step and it'll be a failure
zuesThese are all great ideas but how would you actually implement them?
Correct me if i'm wrong, but a lot of these school shooters had no criminal back ground, so stronger background checks wouldn't have done anything.
There is training involved when getting your pistol permit - not sure about rifles, but there definitely should be.
How exactly would you evaluate someone mentally before they buy a gun?
zuesThese are all great ideas but how would you actually implement them?
Correct me if i'm wrong, but a lot of these school shooters had no criminal back ground, so stronger background checks wouldn't have done anything.
There is training involved when getting your pistol permit - not sure about rifles, but there definitely should be.
How exactly would you evaluate someone mentally before they buy a gun?
zuesUltimately making guns illegal will be the last step and it'll be a failure
IsitWinterYet17Different topic kinda but.... I also have to say before anyone uses this as rational for gun training, the CCW "training class" is a fucking joke that needs improved. It's less than 8 hours of rudimentary level garbage and basically is a "how to use a gun for dummies" or better yet "how to own a gun and not shoot yourself". This dude in my class (prime example of who shouldn't own a gun) had his pistol for 6 months and hadn't once cleaned it with hundreds of rounds or more ran through it, and didn't even know how to disassemble it either. He said something else I forget but it was so stupid even the instructor called him out for being a moron. The target requirement was to shoot 25 rounds or something similar and hit a 12"x12" sheet of paper from 10ft away. Some of the people struggled even with that. Then at the end you get a fancy NRA certificate to take to your sheriff's office and fill out your CCW application. They make it seem like that class is so informative, but really it's a joke as well and a waste of time. Also guns do not "go off"; people are just stupid. I'd be in favor for a more in depth training class for noobs, that allows more skilled people to test out of and just do the law and qualifications part. The range qualifications need to be stricter too. They're a joke. There's also no continuing skills required. Once you pass and get your license, you're good to go forever even if you never practice with your gun again. Such a fallacy.
Just some more wood for the fire.
onenerdykidWe would do so like other countries that allow gun ownership but have more stringent background checks and post-sale yearly checks. It would clearly improve the scenario. Not to the point of 0, no one thinks that. No on also thinks the law against murder should keep the murder rate to 0. But it would certainly catch people who aren't fit to own guns, and it would at least make a lot of would-be lawbreakers rethink their decision knowing they'd have to pass 1,000 hours of training, test taking, mental health exams, and yearly check ups/exams.
Owning a deadly weapon should not be an easy thing. We are far too cavalier and relaxed about owning items whose inherent purpose is to cause destruction and bodily harm. And our government, whose job it is to protect its citizens, should be helping to ensure that gun owners are properly fit to do so.
**This post was edited on Feb 22nd 2018 at 1:50:46pm
zuesAll great points and I agree with you on some of them.
ESBHey Zues just want to say I'm glad we're having this discussion and that you're open to hearing other viewpoints.
zuesyea man it's pointless to name call.... honestly it's disgusting whats going on in America with the violence and all...I hope something can be done to prevent it. I'm a realist, a libertarian and somewhat conservative. I like guns but i definitely see flaws in the laws to acquire them. Mostly it boils down to my lack of trust in our government.
ESBYou're absolutely right: many or most of the "training classes" currently mandated by some states are doing little or nothing to teach people how to handle their firearms responsibly, or to weed out those who perhaps shouldn't own a gun at all. From what I've heard, it's basically impossible to fail a training course unless you do something like accidentally shoot your instructor.
So does this mean that training is stupid and should be abolished? Or does it mean that we should go about it in a more uniform (federally mandated) and strict (more demanding, more critical, with the actual possibility that someone is denied a permit) manner?
IsitWinterYet17This is despicable: USA TODAY: 'It's devastating': Cop stayed outside during Florida massacre while students died
https://usat.ly/2oqMZ4R
What a coward.
CambrewskiSo if I am understanding the concept correctly, we are looking at the following situation:
We have a president who is incompetent and un trustworthy, so we should give all of our weapons to him so that he can protect the law abiding citizens. Said citizens will the affectively live inside of a nation wide gun-free zone, similar to the schools and government buildings which are already gun-free zones and are victims of shootings regularly.
It may be time for people to realize that, of course there needs to be changes implemented in our current situation. The fact that a person who was reported to the FBI can still be allowed to PURCHASE an AR-15 is ludicrous and there are actually simple ways of preventing that which is what sickens me. The gun debate is so hopeless because nobody is thinking logically. Men and Women in America need to put aside their feelings and use their collective ability to generate actual change. Too many people in the world are so quick to deem each other idiots and fools and too few are willing to unite towards the common goal of actually FIXING the problem at hand, which so tragically is DEAD CHILDREN. Please you guys let's stop this bipartisan ridiculousness. Can anybody here honestly say that they back any political figure 100%? It seems to me that that is impossible, so let's take the good with the bad and try to amplify the positives istead of the opposite. We can have an enormous effect on our world if we are able to look past each other's differences and just focus on solving problems. Calling people names and words like trumpsters and libtards and idiots and racists, sexists, etc. does nothing but widen the riff.
My biggest fear is that one day America will collapse entirely and our force of good will be impossible to rekindle. We have power as the People of one of the strongest nations on Earth.
But above all else, let us remember we are all ONE RACE, and can be united through ONE LOVE and ONE GOAL which is equal opportunity and kindness.
If you feel passionate about a political standpoint, then I urge you to enact means to the end that go beyond name calling and complaining. Our newest generations have so much potential being wasted by idle talk and not enough action. Be the change you wish to see, and please do not widen the gap even more.
TheHamburglarBut... but... he was a good guy with a gun! And he didn't stop a mass shooting? Wow no way
theabortionatorI'm absolutely okay with us losing our power as one of the strongest nations. Honestly, fuck our empire. Let's fix America before trying to run the world, and I'd like us to stop running the world regardless.
As far as guns, nothing will ever change because rabble rabble dont take my freedoms people are delusional as fuck.
zuesDon't believe the media... I've learned my lesson and you should too.
TheHamburglarWhat the hell does the media have to do with it? Literally a good guy with a gun did not stop a bad guy with a gun. There’s nothing more to it than that. He failed to do his job, even with a firearm and years of training and service. End of story. Good guys with guns do not save the day in the vast majority of mass shootings. You simply cannot deny that, but you will anyway.
Also you know you spelled Zeus wrong, yeah?
CambrewskiSo if I am understanding the concept correctly
zuesTake a chill pill and stop letting the internet make you angry.
zuesIt's all allegedly bro chill out. People love to hear shit and just believe it immediately. Go ask Russia about the election rigging or Hillary about her presidency. Take a chill pill and stop letting the internet make you angry.
95% of news media is owned by 6 corporations that prey on people like you to believe what they want you to believe.
Question - Are you 12 years old or dumb??? Because I know its one of those choices.
And i'm not trying to spell Zeus yea? it's part of my last name.
Awaiting your angry response trying not smile XD
TheHamburglarBut... but... he was a good guy with a gun! And he didn't stop a mass shooting? Wow no way
TheHamburglarI'll do this once you admit that guns are a big part of the problem in American mass shootings, and provide some steps on how better to address that problem, rather than shifting to a different topic.
