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FT 12 flex?

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SpiessMaster
Posts: 11 - Karma: 11
So I'm hoping to avoid the animosity that seems to surround full tilt flex ratings; but I still would like to ask this question: Is there a magical elusive 12 flex tongue?
I love my First Chair 10 (actually the last seth mo's) but I feel they could still be stiffer. I personally doubt that people like Bode Miller and Seth Morrison are rocking these exact boots. They're stiff but nothing crazy. Asked my local FT dealer and the guy (albeit not the lead boot fitter) said he thought they felt as stiff as any 130 race boot he has tried... To me they're softer than my old Rossi Pursuit Sensor 110.
Let's all try to remember that flex rating are completely arbitrary and do our best to refrain from telling others they/their mothers are idiotic.
Jan 16 2018 9:45PM
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Cade2
Posts: 2124 - Karma: 2,707
Have u tried booster straps
Jan 16 2018 9:47PM
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SpiessMaster
Posts: 11 - Karma: 11
CadeRHave u tried booster straps


So this has been brought up before. What's the difference between booster brand and the cuff straps already on the boot? I can get the boot tight enough and the fit like a dream; just feel the boot (tongue) itself is a little softer than I want.

Also, forgot to mention: I realize the 10 flex is quite stiff and FTs are intended to flex in a different way from other boot styles. Maybe I'm just getting used to the way FTs behave
Jan 16 2018 9:57PM
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Cade2
Posts: 2124 - Karma: 2,707
SpiessMasterSo this has been brought up before. What's the difference between booster brand and the cuff straps already on the boot? I can get the boot tight enough and the fit like a dream; just feel the boot (tongue) itself is a little softer than I want.

Also, forgot to mention: I realize the 10 flex is quite stiff and FTs are intended to flex in a different way from other boot styles. Maybe I'm just getting used to the way FTs behave

Booster straps are stiff racing straps, I have them and highly recommend them
Jan 16 2018 10:38PM
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smh
Posts: 410 - Karma: 2,144
CadeRHave u tried booster straps

This^

Also, if you're really wanting that super stiff feel to your boot I don't think full tilt is the boot for you. Not sure if new boots are in the budget but the tecnica cochise 130 is as stiff as they come
Jan 17 2018 10:59AM
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Zypher
Posts: 2337 - Karma: 2,268
tyler1719This^

Also, if you're really wanting that super stiff feel to your boot I don't think full tilt is the boot for you. Not sure if new boots are in the budget but the tecnica cochise 130 is as stiff as they come


Couldn't have said it better here. The point of booster straps is to really get your calf/shins snugged up right into the boot so there isnt much wiggle room and you can drive them much better. The benefit of this is that your legs/heels shift around less making the boot feel like its a little stiffer. I just bought new FT tongues (went from 4 or 5 to a 7 flex) and rode them without the boosters for a day then noticed a huge difference when I threw the straps back on.
Even with all this being said, FTs arent the stiffest boot out there. They're a 3 buckle system so if you're looking for a stiffer more snug ride then a 4 buckle boot or something with a stiffer flex will benefit you more. Boosters are the cheaper option but they will drastically change the performance of your boot, no doubt.
Jan 17 2018 11:18AM
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.nasty
Posts: 10581 - Karma: 11,151
12 flex tongues are on the roster to hopefully be released next year. There's a few of proto 12 flex tongues floating around now, rumor is even a 14 flex is starting to surface in the proto stage as well.
Jan 17 2018 7:39PM
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SpiessMaster
Posts: 11 - Karma: 11
What makes Booster straps stiffer than the straps on my boots? They look like basically the identical design. The issue isn't fit; full tilts are an almost perfect match for the shape of my feet. I can crank the buckles and there is no space to 'shift around'.
I've definitely heard good things about the Cochise and Fischer Vacuum, but yeah I'm not really looking at getting new boots right now. I got my full tilts because I was getting some brutal shin bang. They help but mostly getting out of the back seat is what helps. (10/10 would recommend) I also like the FTs cause I'm a full time instructor and are in my boots literally all day everyday.
Since I've corrected my stance, I've considered going back to a 4-buckle, and would like to have a tech setup one day, so maybe there are some Cochise in my future. For now though I'm just looking to work with what I got. Hard to afford a full tech setup on an instructor's wage...
Thanks guys for the advice, and thanks .nasty for the glimpse of hope. Where did you hear about the 12s and 14s anyways? Reliable or just chairlift gossip? Maybe I will magically step up my riding 10000000x and they'll put me on their team and send me some stiffer tongues to play with.
Jan 17 2018 7:52PM
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OhJay
Posts: 323 - Karma: 1,146
Has anyone been able to get a pair of the 12 flex tongues and try them out?

Due to budgetary reasons I’m sticking with my current First Chair 10s and trying to make some tweaks instead. Was wondering if the 12 flex tongue was worth the $50 upgrade? Theyre currently up on the FT site.

As far as booster straps go, I just got the expert/racer strap (not world cup) in the mail. Haven’t actually skied in them yet, but I can tell they don’t slide down the tongue after a few flexes, hence able to keep the pressure on my shins along the cuff. I don’t notice any change in stiffness, but I’d have to wait to actually ski in them for my final verdict. I suspect they’ll probably make em feel stiffer like most are saying.

Stock power straps would always slide down after a few flexes and I was basically retightening before every run last season. I think the fact that the booster strap, at least my version, has a slight bit of give to it, helps keep the strap in place. The stock ones I have are solid with no give, so when flexing the boot, they have nowhere to go/expand but to slide down. I could be wrong about this reasoning, but all that matters to me is that the boosters stay put and retain the pressure on my shins, so far.
Sep 27 2018 3:55PM
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Colingarnes
Posts: 610 - Karma: 2,646
Damn man... And I thought I was gangster for changing out my #6 for an #8..
Sep 27 2018 5:05PM
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Colingarnes
Posts: 610 - Karma: 2,646
Damn man... And I thought I was gangster for changing out my #6 for an #8..
Sep 27 2018 5:05PM
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.nasty
Posts: 10581 - Karma: 11,151
ColingarnesDamn man... And I thought I was gangster for changing out my #6 for an #8..


I mean an 8 flex in a FT is only comparable to a 110 flex in other boots, so pretty dang soft. Coupled with a full tilt's linear flex it feels even softer. If you charge at all a 12 flex is a must. Even then I still can't stand the lack of lateral stiffness in a full tilt.
Sep 27 2018 6:55PM
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OhJay
Posts: 323 - Karma: 1,146
Yea I have to say the 10s aren’t that stiff. Stiff enough for me, for the most part, but still leaves me wondering what a stiffer tongue could do.

@nasty, just to clarify lateral stiffness and lateral quickness are two different things, correct? I keep hearing ppl say FTs are laterally quick which i take it means the moment where you’re rolling the skis over from one edge to another, but feel like the terms are used interchangeably when talking about FTs.
Sep 27 2018 8:40PM
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.nasty
Posts: 10581 - Karma: 11,151
OhJayYea I have to say the 10s aren’t that stiff. Stiff enough for me, for the most part, but still leaves me wondering what a stiffer tongue could do.

@nasty, just to clarify lateral stiffness and lateral quickness are two different things, correct? I keep hearing ppl say FTs are laterally quick which i take it means the moment where you’re rolling the skis over from one edge to another, but feel like the terms are used interchangeably when talking about FTs.


Yes different, when I say FTs aren't laterally stiff I'm talking about when you are for instance skiing super chalky conditions in steep technical terrain. They just don't hold up, at least not the way I want them to.
Sep 27 2018 8:55PM
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PacificRimJob
Posts: 24725 - Karma: 29,944
12 straps exist, but I feel like they are overkill

The real problem is the lateral flexion of FT's is just not enough
Sep 29 2018 3:07PM
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OhJay
Posts: 323 - Karma: 1,146
I tried the Head Hammer 130 last season, and yea I agree with you guys on the lateral stiffness part. Hammers have the cuff bolted in the rear to the lower clog like 4 buckle boots, and I could definitely notice the difference on steeps vs my FT FC 10s.
Sep 29 2018 4:20PM
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SpiessMaster
Posts: 11 - Karma: 11
@nasty I don't think I'd call a 12 tongue a 'must' considering it hasn't been an option to the masses until just now... What boots do you prefer?
I've ordered 12 tongues for this season, so I'll let folks know how they feel when I get out on them. Recovering from a broken heel though, so it probably won't be until January... :'(
As for lateral flex of FTs, can't say I notice it. I like to ski plenty steep and fast and haven't found First Chair tens very limiting at all. This is coming from an advanced skier and instructor, so I'm also working a lot on fine-tuning and precise development in my technique.
@OhJay I do notice the straps slipping down the tongues as well. I don't think of it as an issue in the strap material though. More that the angle is wrong and makes the strap 'want' to drift down the boot. If you find a Booster brand strap fixes this, though, I might have to give it a try. How was installing it? Haven't looked at my boots recently but I recall the strap being riveted, not screwed. Did you have to drill your boots at all to get the Boosters on?
All in all, I find the boots perform pretty damn well (with a bit of room still for modding) and are more than comfortable enough to instruct and free ski in 7 days a week in the winter. If I really wanted a race boot, I'd probably go back to a two-piece wrap around shell. My next boot would more likely be something with tech inserts and walk mode. Probably a Lupo? I kinda feel once you go to the 3-piece you can't go back.
Nov 25 2018 6:51PM
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soupcan
Posts: 364 - Karma: 562
I upped to 10 flex tongues from 6’s and it made a world of difference. However I do notice the lateral flex especially driving big skis through crud heading back to the chair. They just don’t have the same gusto as say a dalbello or an overlap boot with the higher quality plastics in the cuff.
Nov 25 2018 8:13PM
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milo-mcsenderson
Posts: 625 - Karma: 8,287
Jumping into this thread as I'm an owner of FT FC 6's (#10 tongue swapped in and boosters on the way). Moved from Dalbello Panterra 120s after i shagged em over like 5/6 years. wondering what the main difference between the 6s and 10s are in terms of boot construction plastic used? (i know they come with a different stock strap and plastic buckles on the 6s iirc)

I would have got the 10s in the shop if they'd had them (bought in mid March this year ) in the UK.

Had been recommended some low volume langes in Whistler but didn't end up pulling the trigger. just basically looking to be told I fucked up and also curious to the main difference to the 6s and 10s, loving my FTs so far but have only skied a week in the mountains on them and dry slope indoor park laps so can't truly comment on their performance outside the park just yet

EDIT:
I have some heel wraps on the stock liner that came with the FC6s but also have some (what i think are) intuition pro liners that went in my dalbellos before they died. Would it be a good shout getting those moulded to my feet and getting some wraps put in? I already have a footbed, a heel lift and an extra space reducing foot bed type thing that's just flat, to rectify my teeny tiny heels. New boots aren't an option, I do love my FTs just tweaking em to get em right atm

**This post was edited on Nov 26th 2018 at 8:29:20am
Nov 26 2018 8:21AM
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SpiessMaster
Posts: 11 - Karma: 11
Basically the only difference is the stiffness. Both made from the original Raichle molds. 6 would be relatively soft, I like the 10s. I wouldn't say you fucked up, the only downside is that your shell aside from tongue will still be a 6 flex. That can only be changed through buying new boots. If your 6's come with the old plastic buckles I'd reccommend ordering replacement metal buckles.
You may find you don't need all your extra fittings like heel lift/2nd footbed since you're going from a high volume dalbello to a low vol FT. (iirc Panterra is 102 - 100mm last vs the 99mm ft)
Nov 26 2018 1:32PM
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SpiessMaster
Posts: 11 - Karma: 11
soupcanI upped to 10 flex tongues from 6’s and it made a world of difference. However I do notice the lateral flex especially driving big skis through crud heading back to the chair. They just don’t have the same gusto as say a dalbello or an overlap boot with the higher quality plastics in the cuff.


What effect does the lateral flex of your boot on the actual practical performance of your ski in your experience? Do you mean getting the ski on edge?
Nov 26 2018 1:34PM
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milo-mcsenderson
Posts: 625 - Karma: 8,287
SpiessMasterBasically the only difference is the stiffness. Both made from the original Raichle molds. 6 would be relatively soft, I like the 10s. I wouldn't say you fucked up, the only downside is that your shell aside from tongue will still be a 6 flex. That can only be changed through buying new boots. If your 6's come with the old plastic buckles I'd reccommend ordering replacement metal buckles.
You may find you don't need all your extra fittings like heel lift/2nd footbed since you're going from a high volume dalbello to a low vol FT. (iirc Panterra is 102 - 100mm last vs the 99mm ft)


Oh I didn’t realise the rest of the shell flex was different per boot... I thought it was essentially just the tongues. I find the flex in mine so far pretty good though. I think a booster strap will help!
I also think all the extra packing out is for my skinny mo fo heels. They lift in EVERYTHING
Nov 26 2018 1:53PM
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Colingarnes
Posts: 610 - Karma: 2,646
MF-HARPOh I didn’t realise the rest of the shell flex was different per boot... I thought it was essentially just the tongues.

Yeah I'm almost positive this guy is wrong. pretty sure the shells are all the same.
Nov 26 2018 2:17PM
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milo-mcsenderson
Posts: 625 - Karma: 8,287
ColingarnesYeah I'm almost positive this guy is wrong. pretty sure the shells are all the same.


Would follow my understanding of their boots as well. Pretty sure the difference between the 6 and 10, is metal buckles, pro liner and "cinche" power strap. I have a booster on the way, got some pro liners I'm going to mould and I don't currently see buckles as an issue although may upgrade if necessary
Nov 26 2018 2:19PM
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soupcan
Posts: 364 - Karma: 562
SpiessMasterWhat effect does the lateral flex of your boot on the actual practical performance of your ski in your experience? Do you mean getting the ski on edge?


They make your skis feel less lively from edge to edge. As well through crud they feel less stable in comparison to a more substantial boot.
Nov 26 2018 8:54PM
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SpiessMaster
Posts: 11 - Karma: 11
@Colingarnes @MF-HARP I know the point of full tilts is the removable tongues but my First Chair 10s say "Flex: 10" on the back which leads me to believe that at least the rear upper is stiffer. Could be wrong though; it could just be branding.
@Soupcan interesting, I haven't noticed that myself but then again I only use the one pair of boots. Definitely wouldn't say they make my skis less lively from edge to edge.
Nov 27 2018 12:47AM
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Colingarnes
Posts: 610 - Karma: 2,646

zypher [/quote]I just bought new FT tongues (went from 4 or 5 to a 7 flex) and rode them without the boosters for a day then noticed a huge difference .[/quote]

5 or 7 flex you say? I don't believe this story.

**This post was edited on Nov 27th 2018 at 9:22:57am
Nov 27 2018 9:21AM
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OhJay
Posts: 323 - Karma: 1,146
My guess is the first chair 6, 8, and 10 all have the same shell material and construction. I could be wrog as Im just basing this off the listed weights of each boot on their website, which all seem to be pretty similar.
Nov 27 2018 12:57PM
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OhJay
Posts: 323 - Karma: 1,146
Re: lateral stiffness.

The first chair 10s by all means is a fine boot. It was my first boot and I got around on it just fine.

It wasnt until I tried the Head Hammer 130 where I realized what I was missing out on in terms of laterall stiffness. When hammering turns on firm steeps, I felt like I had better power transmission to my edges and didnt slip and skid as much as my FTs.

Dalbellos kryptons(and its iterations) and hammers have the plastic cuff material and buckle that wraps around the front of your shins like traditional overlaps do. I believe this is where FT falls short on the lateral stiffness (keeping in mind there are other factors, I believe, to lateral stiffness i.e. how high the lower clog comes up, cuff being bolted to the lower clog like overlap boots, shell thickness, etc).

With FTs, its just cables that are holding your cuff and tongue together, so when you imagine yourself cranking turns and applying lateral forces in your boots, I just dont think its the same amount of security, stiffness and power transmission as the cuff of what the dalbellos and hammers can offer.

This is just my speculation based on my experience from FT boots. Not to say FTs are bad by any means, they just definitely excel in certain aspects.
Nov 27 2018 1:11PM
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soupcan
Posts: 364 - Karma: 562
OhJayRe: lateral stiffness.

The first chair 10s by all means is a fine boot. It was my first boot and I got around on it just fine.

It wasnt until I tried the Head Hammer 130 where I realized what I was missing out on in terms of laterall stiffness. When hammering turns on firm steeps, I felt like I had better power transmission to my edges and didnt slip and skid as much as my FTs.

Dalbellos kryptons(and its iterations) and hammers have the plastic cuff material and buckle that wraps around the front of your shins like traditional overlaps do. I believe this is where FT falls short on the lateral stiffness (keeping in mind there are other factors, I believe, to lateral stiffness i.e. how high the lower clog comes up, cuff being bolted to the lower clog like overlap boots, shell thickness, etc).

With FTs, its just cables that are holding your cuff and tongue together, so when you imagine yourself cranking turns and applying lateral forces in your boots, I just dont think its the same amount of security, stiffness and power transmission as the cuff of what the dalbellos and hammers can offer.

This is just my speculation based on my experience from FT boots. Not to say FTs are bad by any means, they just definitely excel in certain aspects.


You pretty much hit the nail right on the head. This statement is exactly how I felt with my ft’s vs dalbello. I also believe that part of it come down to materials used but I can’t confirm nor deny whether or not that is true.
Nov 27 2018 2:23PM
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milo-mcsenderson
Posts: 625 - Karma: 8,287
OhJayRe: lateral stiffness.

The first chair 10s by all means is a fine boot. It was my first boot and I got around on it just fine.

It wasnt until I tried the Head Hammer 130 where I realized what I was missing out on in terms of laterall stiffness. When hammering turns on firm steeps, I felt like I had better power transmission to my edges and didnt slip and skid as much as my FTs.

Dalbellos kryptons(and its iterations) and hammers have the plastic cuff material and buckle that wraps around the front of your shins like traditional overlaps do. I believe this is where FT falls short on the lateral stiffness (keeping in mind there are other factors, I believe, to lateral stiffness i.e. how high the lower clog comes up, cuff being bolted to the lower clog like overlap boots, shell thickness, etc).

With FTs, its just cables that are holding your cuff and tongue together, so when you imagine yourself cranking turns and applying lateral forces in your boots, I just dont think its the same amount of security, stiffness and power transmission as the cuff of what the dalbellos and hammers can offer.

This is just my speculation based on my experience from FT boots. Not to say FTs are bad by any means, they just definitely excel in certain aspects.


I used to ski Panterras. Have only skied one proper week on my FTs. Interested to see what I make of the difference when I head to the Alps in 2.5 weeks
Nov 27 2018 3:02PM
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