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Buying core brands online vs. buying big brands in local shop

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SammyDubz
Posts: 2168 - Karma: 7,222
So I'm in the market for a new pair of skis, (mid-fat all mountain ski - made by pretty much every brand)...my local ski shop is great, bunch of cool people, but they pretty much only sell the big brands. In the past I've typically just bought in store mainly because I like seeing my $$ go to a bunch of people that are stoked on skiing + all the other benefits you get from buying in store, thinking about changing it up though...

Question is, what do you guys think is better for the industry? and why?
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Dec 20 2017 8:52PM
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oxiclean
Posts: 615 - Karma: 688
Honestly if not for the big companies the ski industry would be dead. If your local shop is actually local and not owned by Vail or some shit than buying big brands from them is supporting both ends of the spectrum. But if there's a brand you fuck with online thats cool too.
Dec 20 2017 9:46PM
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Non_State_Actor
Posts: 4873 - Karma: 17,324
Buy online and take them in to get mounted? They probably make more profit on the service than the goods anyway, unless you're paying full price for skis. Maybe buy boots and bindings there?
Dec 20 2017 11:00PM
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Rum_Ham
Posts: 1449 - Karma: 4,482
Buy online direct from the manufacturer, buy bindings and get a mount done at your local shop.
Dec 20 2017 11:48PM
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Tickn3r
Posts: 32 - Karma: 83
get 'em from your local shop and bargain with the sale assistant. the Shop get a sweet bulk buy discount and probs mark it up to the online RRP anyway. If you were to buy online for the RRP the money goes straight to the company who made them, so effectively it's marked up even more!

get a sweet deal, support the local guys, and get all the fun off buying in a retail environmeent. it's a win win for everyone
Dec 20 2017 11:57PM
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Skrier
Posts: 77 - Karma: 336
Also if you buy from your local shop and they are nice guys they will probably mount for free. But if money isn’t an issue I’d say just buy whatever skis you want most.
Dec 21 2017 9:54AM
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JLev
Posts: 872 - Karma: 4,795
There are 500,000 pair of skis sold per year in the US, so plenty of people to support all the options, so you should simply base your decision on what's best for YOU:
1) BUY SKIS that you believe are the best for your style of skiing based on reading reviews by skiers & gear tests (not based on which athlete gets paid to ride the ski)
2) BUY FROM whoever is most convenient and affordable for you
If everyone does this, the best products & buying experiences will continue to grow and the rest will go away... AKA natural selection / survival of the fittest
Dec 21 2017 10:24AM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
JLevThere are 500,000 pair of skis sold per year in the US, so plenty of people to support all the options, so you should simply base your decision on what's best for YOU:
1) BUY SKIS that you believe are the best for your style of skiing based on reading reviews by skiers & gear tests (not based on which athlete gets paid to ride the ski)
2) BUY FROM whoever is most convenient and affordable for you
If everyone does this, the best products & buying experiences will continue to grow and the rest will go away... AKA natural selection / survival of the fittest


What role do you think the brick and mortar ski shop plays in the future of the industry?
Dec 21 2017 10:58AM
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freeballer
Posts: 726 - Karma: 960
I like buying skis from shops and there are plenty of shops that carry core brands. If they don't have the particular model or size you want, they can normally order them for you. Plus, a majority of skis are the same price whether you buy them at a shop or online. By that, I don't mean last year's stuff, but current model year. Why not support the shop that helped you choose the right ski, provides good customer service, and most likely the employees and owners are really into the sport of skiing? Plus, it's really nice to fondle the ski in person before you buy it. I'm reluctant to pre-order skis from core brands that haven't even made the ski yet. If I'm throwing my hard earned money down for a set of new sticks, they better actually be available at that point in time, unlike the debacle of Revision and even other brands that end up shipping weeks late.
Dec 21 2017 4:42PM
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cannonballer
Posts: 168 - Karma: 592
It's possible to buy local and also buy 'core'. Your profile says that your home mtn is Mt Snow, I'm assuming you are either right there in SoVt or somewhere near-ish. In VT you have small brands like HG, Renoun, WhiteRoom. Expanding into the rest of New England you've got: Parlor, Amalgam, Saint, Lucid, etc. You can have it all!!
Dec 21 2017 6:10PM
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SammyDubz
Posts: 2168 - Karma: 7,222
cannonballerIt's possible to buy local and also buy 'core'. Your profile says that your home mtn is Mt Snow, I'm assuming you are either right there in SoVt or somewhere near-ish. In VT you have small brands like HG, Renoun, WhiteRoom. Expanding into the rest of New England you've got: Parlor, Amalgam, Saint, Lucid, etc. You can have it all!!


Wow really insightful...

if I had a local shop that sold core I would be there in a heartbeat and I wouldn’t have made this thread.
Dec 21 2017 6:24PM
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cannonballer
Posts: 168 - Karma: 592
SammyDubzWow really insightful...

if I had a local shop that sold core I would be there in a heartbeat and I wouldn’t have made this thread.


My point was that you can my from a local ski MAKER, even if your local SHOP doesn't carry them. Then have your local shop mount them up. No need to bring online into it at all.
Dec 21 2017 7:22PM
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loganimlach
Posts: 5132 - Karma: 14,054
Mr.BishopWhat role do you think the brick and mortar ski shop plays in the future of the industry?


Unless they can shift to a model where they can only make money off of shop work and demos then every year they are going to get stuck with more and more unsold inventory and eventually go under.
Dec 21 2017 7:31PM
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-Dan
Posts: 7145 - Karma: 52,184
As mentioned before by others, I would buy the skis I want from the ski brand I want to support. Then support your local shop with the mount, or binding purchase, or boot purchase, or tunes in the future.
Dec 21 2017 8:34PM
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-Dan
Posts: 7145 - Karma: 52,184
Also, encouraging your shop to carry the ski brands you want to support could be helpful to everyone. Unless of course your chosen brand only does direct sales.
Dec 21 2017 8:36PM
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JLev
Posts: 872 - Karma: 4,795
Mr.BishopWhat role do you think the brick and mortar ski shop plays in the future of the industry?
There's plenty of opportunity for physical shops and value for customers
- worst part of skiing is ski boots, without shops to measure and fit and adjust we'd all hate skiing
- ski tuning and maintenance & repair
- mounting adjusting bindings
- ski lease programs so new skiers and kids that outgrow each yr can afford it (Alpine shop small town of Burlington VT leases over 4,000 pair season!)
- demos, try before you buy
- host events, meet athletes, movies,
- organize ski trips, learn to ride programs
- try on outerwear, then special order exactly what you want
- all of the above for NON WINTER PRODUCTS TOO!!!!
Dec 21 2017 9:42PM
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hi_vis360
Posts: 5092 - Karma: 51,666
-DanAlso, encouraging your shop to carry the ski brands you want to support could be helpful to everyone. Unless of course your chosen brand only does direct sales.


The problem is most shops can't afford small brands cause the big guys can give shops better deals on skis. If my local shop wanted to sell HG's they would probably have to charge like $1000 dollars for them to make money, which wouldn't be worth it because nobody is going to buy park skis at that price.
Dec 21 2017 9:48PM
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JLev
Posts: 872 - Karma: 4,795
BASEDJAHThe problem is most shops can't afford small brands cause the big guys can give shops better deals on skis. If my local shop wanted to sell HG's they would probably have to charge like $1000 dollars for them to make money, which wouldn't be worth it because nobody is going to buy park skis at that price.

TRUE!
Dec 21 2017 9:57PM
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Emma_Watson
Posts: 4491 - Karma: 6,797
JLevThere are 500,000 pair of skis sold per year in the US, so plenty of people to support all the options, so you should simply base your decision on what's best for YOU:
1) BUY SKIS that you believe are the best for your style of skiing based on reading reviews by skiers & gear tests (not based on which athlete gets paid to ride the ski)
2) BUY FROM whoever is most convenient and affordable for you
If everyone does this, the best products & buying experiences will continue to grow and the rest will go away... AKA natural selection / survival of the fittest


You're totally right Jlev.
We should all be buying ON3P demos!
Dec 21 2017 10:53PM
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snowpocalypse
Posts: 1036 - Karma: 3,525
I think NS over estimates the general public. In reality, 81% off all gear sold, is in a brick and mortar shop. 14% is on line and 5% is in a chain store. Will that continue to trend towards on-line? I'm sure it will to some respect but I am willing to bet that not as much as most of you think. NS is a savvy bunch. They read the gear guides, they see what the pros are using and will buy based on that. The average skier which is 1-2 days a season (11.8 mil skiers) wants a tangible experience. They go into the mom and pop shop to bull shit with the staff, find out whats cool and feel like a true skier. You will see three generations of skiers in the same shop. I have seen kids grow from their first set of 60cm skis to off to college and now bringing their own tikes into the shop.
The direct to consumer ski sales does not even register on the total sales forecast and there is a very good reason why. For every one super knowledgeable skier there are 18 that just want to talk and flex some skis. I hate the comparison to auto sales but it is similar. Some people will buy without seeing and driving but the vast majority want the visceral feeling of touch before buying. That along with the service, brick and mortar specialty shop are the heart of the ski industry. Jlev thinks "survival of the fittest" which I agree on a some levels. I would hesitate to talk about trying to put shops out of business. That is an us vs them attitude that is not needed in the industry right now. Sure shops will mount and service the skis you buy on line. Most of the ski shops business model is not just a service center though.
There are enough types of skiers for all the skis out there. It doesn't need to be a CORE vs Big corporate ski brand. Just as much as it can't be a direct to consumer or online vs brick and mortar. All that will lead to is less choice and less service.

**This post was edited on Dec 22nd 2017 at 3:42:25pm
Dec 22 2017 12:25PM
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Casey
Posts: 7871 - Karma: 24,631
The last three pairs of skis I bought I got off craigslist.

I feel like shops are in a tough spot. The struggle to get good help is real. So many independent shops have gone under it's not even funny, and the one that remains in my town got taken over by a different owner and is now 50% vanilla road bike shop and no one knows dick about the ski gear. I went in to get my skis mounted the last time I was in there and left genuinely nervous that it was going to be done right based on my impression of the tech. Maybe I'm being to hard on them, they did a good job in the end but I would likely never buy anything from them.
Dec 22 2017 2:35PM
1 0
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sharhodes
Posts: 225 - Karma: 359
Brock and mortar is going to have trouble staying alive. They will become more showrooms and demo centers mixed with ski work.

Everyone has a super computer in their pocket, And selling direct means more money for the producers.

People don't even go to the store to buy groceries anymore. It's the same reason big department stores are starting to go out of business. The addiction to screens will only increase.
Dec 23 2017 8:21AM
1 0
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.lencon
Posts: 6753 - Karma: 17,186
sharhodesBrock and mortar is going to have trouble staying alive. They will become more showrooms and demo centers mixed with ski work.

Everyone has a super computer in their pocket, And selling direct means more money for the producers.

People don't even go to the store to buy groceries anymore. It's the same reason big department stores are starting to go out of business. The addiction to screens will only increase.

Kinda sucks, but you don’t need a shop. I still go into a shop, but only for bindings. That’s because
A) I don’t have my own jig currently
B) Even if I did have my own jig, I haven’t committed to one brand of bindings haha.

Mount prices will continue to go up, which stinks as well.

I do 100% believe that the shops that know what they’re doing and help all customers will stick around though.
Dec 23 2017 10:04AM
1 0
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Tross
Posts: 951 - Karma: 117
snowpocalypseI think NS over estimates the general public. In reality, 81% off all gear sold, is in a brick and mortar shop. 14% is on line and 5% is in a chain store. Will that continue to trend towards on-line? I'm sure it will to some respect but I am willing to bet that not as much as most of you think. NS is a savvy bunch. They read the gear guides, they see what the pros are using and will buy based on that. The average skier which is 1-2 days a season (11.8 mil skiers) wants a tangible experience. They go into the mom and pop shop to bull shit with the staff, find out whats cool and feel like a true skier. You will see three generations of skiers in the same shop. I have seen kids grow from their first set of 60cm skis to off to college and now bringing their own tikes into the shop.
The direct to consumer ski sales does not even register on the total sales forecast and there is a very good reason why. For every one super knowledgeable skier there are 18 that just want to talk and flex some skis. I hate the comparison to auto sales but it is similar. Some people will buy without seeing and driving but the vast majority want the visceral feeling of touch before buying. That along with the service, brick and mortar specialty shop are the heart of the ski industry. Jlev thinks "survival of the fittest" which I agree on a some levels. I would hesitate to talk about trying to put shops out of business. That is an us vs them attitude that is not needed in the industry right now. Sure shops will mount and service the skis you buy on line. Most of the ski shops business model is not just a service center though.
There are enough types of skiers for all the skis out there. It doesn't need to be a CORE vs Big corporate ski brand. Just as much as it can't be a direct to consumer or online vs brick and mortar. All that will lead to is less choice and less service.

**This post was edited on Dec 22nd 2017 at 3:42:25pm


Curious where you got the figures. Your forecast is interesting, too. I don't have access to that info (nor have I searched), but my discussions in small shops over the past couple years led me to believe Evo and others were assailing on the small shops. My thoughts in response were in line w/ what Jason is saying, though. I cannot think of a scenario where any customer can get new (i.e. not replacing the exact same brand/model/size) gear out on the hill sans a shop. Also, we don't often talk about the year-round products/services these shops provide.
Dec 23 2017 11:46AM
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.lencon
Posts: 6753 - Karma: 17,186
TrossCurious where you got the figures. Your forecast is interesting, too. I don't have access to that info (nor have I searched), but my discussions in small shops over the past couple years led me to believe Evo and others were assailing on the small shops. My thoughts in response were in line w/ what Jason is saying, though. I cannot think of a scenario where any customer can get new (i.e. not replacing the exact same brand/model/size) gear out on the hill sans a shop. Also, we don't often talk about the year-round products/services these shops provide.


Bike services is when I come in most to those shops. I can do simple stuff, but don't have all the tools/time for the more complicated things. Also, buying a bike from a shop pays off. If you buy a pair of skis and maybe bindings or boots, you save maybe $40 on a simple mount? If you buy a bike from a shop, you get warranty, tune ups, parts, etc etc. Also nice that they have parts in stock that you can go pick up. You never need to replace a tire on your skis...
Dec 23 2017 11:58AM
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Cotter
Posts: 2546 - Karma: 849
CaseyThe last three pairs of skis I bought I got off craigslist.

I feel like shops are in a tough spot. The struggle to get good help is real. So many independent shops have gone under it's not even funny, and the one that remains in my town got taken over by a different owner and is now 50% vanilla road bike shop and no one knows dick about the ski gear. I went in to get my skis mounted the last time I was in there and left genuinely nervous that it was going to be done right based on my impression of the tech. Maybe I'm being to hard on them, they did a good job in the end but I would likely never buy anything from them.

Big issue with craiglist / used skis (among park skiers) is that there are generally two types of used park skis; Destroyed & Almost new. I've gotten lucky and gotten a few pairs of lightly used armada's [In ski towns specfically] for amazing deals. However, generally a ski that is almost new in condition isnt worth buying because the seller will want close to full value, manufacturers warranty is worth it for the extra ~$100 or so. The other spectrum is super cheap skis which are only good for "urban" skiing. If ski 30+ days a season, I would reccomend going brand new.
Dec 23 2017 12:12PM
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Maximumsushi
Posts: 7837 - Karma: 3,351
I think everything depends on buying what you like.

I've been riding the same "core" brand of skis since the 2008 season, going through around a dozen different pairs since then. It's a small company and I'm a big fan of the owner and people involved. It would take a lot for me not to continue to ride Surface skis. I think this is the only example of brand loyalty in my life.

On the flip side, I buy my bindings and touring gear from brick and mortar shops. There are some amazing shops out there staffed by even more amazing people. I remember breaking an old pair of Look pivot bindings (before they were remade) around 11AM on a deep pow Wednesday. I brought my skis to TMC in the village and they gave me an old replacement heel piece. They remounted and adjusted the bindings and I was back on the hill a half-hour later. TMC hooked it up! There some amazing brick and morter shops out there that I really think deserve support.

Both shops and smaller ski brands can be amazing. Others can be terrible sometimes. It's up to you to buy whatever you want, from wherever you want.
Dec 23 2017 12:33PM
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Casey
Posts: 7871 - Karma: 24,631
CotterBig issue with craiglist / used skis (among park skiers) is that there are generally two types of used park skis; Destroyed & Almost new. I've gotten lucky and gotten a few pairs of lightly used armada's [In ski towns specfically] for amazing deals. However, generally a ski that is almost new in condition isnt worth buying because the seller will want close to full value, manufacturers warranty is worth it for the extra ~$100 or so. The other spectrum is super cheap skis which are only good for "urban" skiing. If ski 30+ days a season, I would reccomend going brand new.


Yep pretty much. I got a pair of pow skis still in plastic, and I think the guy was willing to cut a deal because I got the impression he got them for free or dirt cheap from a rep or something. The other set I got was a free pair of 4frnts that have a blown out edge. I want to do the edge repair as a project, and if it doesn't work out oh well they were free.
Dec 23 2017 1:22PM
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hi_vis360
Posts: 5092 - Karma: 51,666
sharhodesBrock and mortar is going to have trouble staying alive. They will become more showrooms and demo centers mixed with ski work.

Everyone has a super computer in their pocket, And selling direct means more money for the producers.

People don't even go to the store to buy groceries anymore. It's the same reason big department stores are starting to go out of business. The addiction to screens will only increase.


big department stores are going out of business because they're just worse versions of the internet. You can go to a big box store that "Has Everything!" (not really) but provides no service whatsoever, or go online and get literally anything you can imagine with the same level of service.

Grocery stores and small businesses are pretty different because of the level of service they provide, especially if you're going to small local grocers.
Dec 23 2017 1:35PM
0 0
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sharhodes
Posts: 225 - Karma: 359
sharhodesBrock and mortar is going to have trouble staying alive. They will become more showrooms and demo centers mixed with ski work.

Everyone has a super computer in their pocket, And selling direct means more money for the producers.

People don't even go to the store to buy groceries anymore. It's the same reason big department stores are starting to go out of business. The addiction to screens will only increase.


Lol Brock, what an idiot
Dec 23 2017 2:20PM
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SammyDubz
Posts: 2168 - Karma: 7,222
Shopped around locally, found a place with cool guys that sells armada. Picked up some ARV 106s. Not exactly super core, but buying local and from a brand that I know supports the freeskiing industry is the best I could do.

Yeeeee
Dec 26 2017 6:34AM
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cannonballer
Posts: 168 - Karma: 592
TrossI cannot think of a scenario where any customer can get new (i.e. not replacing the exact same brand/model/size) gear out on the hill sans a shop. Also, we don't often talk about the year-round products/services these shops provide.


My current setup: skis bought on The Clymb, bindings bought on Level Nine, boots bought on EVO. I mounted the bindings myself with a paper jig.

I am NOT advocating that everyone do this. And I am NOT saying that local shops aren't important. In fact I mostly buy from my local shop just because I like to. I'm just pointing out that it is possible (very easy actually) for consumers to buy sans a local shop. For snowboarding it's even easier since there are no binding mount issues.
Dec 26 2017 9:59AM
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Sklar
Posts: 8864 - Karma: 31,612
TrossCurious where you got the figures. Your forecast is interesting, too. I don't have access to that info (nor have I searched), but my discussions in small shops over the past couple years led me to believe Evo and others were assailing on the small shops. My thoughts in response were in line w/ what Jason is saying, though. I cannot think of a scenario where any customer can get new (i.e. not replacing the exact same brand/model/size) gear out on the hill sans a shop. Also, we don't often talk about the year-round products/services these shops provide.


That’s SIA industry data.
And to your other point, evo is a local shop for many in Seattle, Portland, and Denver. Additionally, we (yes I work for evo) support a network of local shops by giving online consumers the ability to ship for free to the local shops. While this may not sound like a lot, this gets customers who would be buying online anyways into service focused local shops. Walk in to our HQ office in Seattle and it’ll look a lot like your local shop, too. We’re skiers, snowboarders, and mountain bikers.
Dec 26 2017 11:12AM
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Tross
Posts: 951 - Karma: 117
Thanks! I haven't seen an intel report in a very long time. Without that, it's really only perception (and what local shop folks say) to gauge just how much he online sales world has impacted the brick and mortar shops. Sounds like it's not nearly as much as I'd thought. That's a good thing. As for evo, it's the Seattle traffic that keeps me away.
Dec 26 2017 11:18AM
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