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J Skis Stephanie Stepp Pro Model Is Pissing People Off
SteveSteppTo IggySkier who said the ski or email was misogynist, come on man, do you really believe that? You think using a pink ski with unicorns is an overt oppression of women? You even said you made a ski with half naked chicks pillow fighting, i dont think you are the moral arbiter in this argument.
This was addressed a few posts down from his original post, and I don't feel he was trying to sit on some moral high ground. He stated that he has made graphics along the lines of the one in discussion, while also offering his criticism of one portion of the graphic accompanied by an explanation as to why he did not agree with it. This is a discussion and it goes both ways.
"Look - this is coming from someone who put girls having a pillow fight on a topsheet. I can see the humor everyone is going for here." - Iggy
It's a graphic, let J do whatever he wants with the graphics. He obviously goes for whatever he thinks will help sell his skis, much like most other ski companies, just in a different way from most. And it seems like you two are on the same page with this, which is great for JSkis. What I would like to know more about is this claim here:
"1) Jason kept making pretty harsh and aggressive comments towards some girls only to delete them after an hour or so. If you're gonna make a statement - make it. His attitude did not play into the "it's just skiing" vibe at all so how can he expect fans to do the same?"
I have not ventured into the comments on either facebook or instagram, nor do I care to, but if someone wants to fill in a little more information on this claim instead of quoting the entire post as a whole and ignoring #1, I would be grateful.
hot.pocketThis was addressed a few posts down from his original post, and I don't feel he was trying to sit on some moral high ground. He stated that he has made graphics along the lines of the one in discussion, while also offering his criticism of one portion of the graphic accompanied by an explanation as to why he did not agree with it. This is a discussion and it goes both ways.
"Look - this is coming from someone who put girls having a pillow fight on a topsheet. I can see the humor everyone is going for here." - Iggy
It's a graphic, let J do whatever he wants with the graphics. He obviously goes for whatever he thinks will help sell his skis, much like most other ski companies, just in a different way from most. And it seems like you two are on the same page with this, which is great for JSkis. What I would like to know more about is this claim here:
"1) Jason kept making pretty harsh and aggressive comments towards some girls only to delete them after an hour or so. If you're gonna make a statement - make it. His attitude did not play into the "it's just skiing" vibe at all so how can he expect fans to do the same?"
I have not ventured into the comments on either facebook or instagram, nor do I care to, but if someone wants to fill in a little more information on this claim instead of quoting the entire post as a whole and ignoring #1, I would be grateful.
OK so i didnt catch that bit about Iggy seeing the humor in both graphics, so apologies there, but I still think his claim is unfounded. I was trying to say that calling me, Jskis, or the graphic misogynistic seemed hypocritical coming from him. Not only that, it just seemed unwarranted given the topic of Stephanie as a character. Not to mention, admitting your own graphic being misogynistic doesnt give you some special right or moral high ground to call out someone else, especially when your graphic has no context or back story.
I could see that criticism being much more valid if it were directed at another ski company that had put out this graphic. However I think its fair to assume that Iggy saw the Mean Girls episode. Given that, it was surprising to hear him hurl that claim. Just because the ski is pink and has cheesy cliche instagram quotes doesnt, and shouldnt, lead someone to believe its an overt expression of misogyny or a devaluing of all women. This is why my argument for context matters so much. The ski was built for a fictional character who embodies those traits (and colors).
Although i dont get offended often or easily, this bothered me purely because its an inaccurate portrayal of me, my content, and my values. I made that episode under the guise of "all people being equal", in this sense, equal to be the subject of a joke or satire.
Nothing against Iggy, honestly, i can see why someone on the outside of the joke may have made that claim... but again, the context of this whole thing matters. He saw the episode, so he had the context and should have understood why its a unfounded claim to make.
As for J's comments, i honestly dont know. I highly doubt he deleted comments because on our phone conversation he was asking me whether or not he should take the whole thread down. I urged him not to and he said he wouldnt and that'd he change the caption instead. i havent seen any comments that arent there anymore, so I doubt he deleted anything.
SteveSteppOK so i didnt catch that bit about Iggy seeing the humor in both graphics, so apologies there, but I still think his claim is unfounded. I was trying to say that calling me, Jskis, or the graphic misogynistic seemed hypocritical coming from him. Not only that, it just seemed unwarranted given the topic of Stephanie as a character. Not to mention, admitting your own graphic being misogynistic doesnt give you some special right or moral high ground to call out someone else, especially when your graphic has no context or back story.
I could see that criticism being much more valid if it were directed at another ski company that had put out this graphic. However I think its fair to assume that Iggy saw the Mean Girls episode. Given that, it was surprising to hear him hurl that claim. Just because the ski is pink and has cheesy cliche instagram quotes doesnt, and shouldnt, lead someone to believe its an overt expression of misogyny or a devaluing of all women. This is why my argument for context matters so much. The ski was built for a fictional character who embodies those traits (and colors).
Although i dont get offended often or easily, this bothered me purely because its an inaccurate portrayal of me, my content, and my values. I made that episode under the guise of "all people being equal", in this sense, equal to be the subject of a joke or satire.
Nothing against Iggy, honestly, i can see why someone on the outside of the joke may have made that claim... but again, the context of this whole thing matters. He saw the episode, so he had the context and should have understood why its a unfounded claim to make.
As for J's comments, i honestly dont know. I highly doubt he deleted comments because on our phone conversation he was asking me whether or not he should take the whole thread down. I urged him not to and he said he wouldnt and that'd he change the caption instead. i havent seen any comments that arent there anymore, so I doubt he deleted anything.
Well put. For the record I'm on your side with it just being a graphic, people seem to be making a big deal out of nothing.
SteveSteppI have to weigh in here, i'm guessing you are one of the 2 girls who were outspoken on the FB thread since your talking points are essentially the same.
I have to reiterate the point that just because you were disappointed in the marketing campaign or the way the email was written doesnt grant you the right to demand a change in jSkis marketing. We obviously value your and other peoples opinion on this; J and i had a long phone conversation yesterday. Demanding a private company to change the way they do business because of someones personal misunderstanding seems to be common place now, and i have to stand up and defend it.
I promise you i'm not trying to attack or invalidate your opinion, but the context of the joke and situation absolutely matters. Like i said on FB, if this email campaign came from a company like K2 or Armada it would absolutely warrant concern like this. Again, you were on the email list so you must have had some idea of the content that J supports. This joke and others are what J has literally built his brand on and its not J's job to cater to a few people who arent in on the joke. Its in the motto of the company, "its just skiing". Its up to you to decide whether or not to be disappointed by this, and your misinterpretation of the email anyone else's responsibility. You even said you love the silliness of Jskis, so why should this be any different?
I honestly think if the ski came out immediately after the Mean Boys video last year, none of this would be happening. Since a year has gone by theres clearly been a disconnect.
I urge you to take the perspective of people who are IN on the joke. People couldnt believe that an internet joke from a fake persona has come so far as to have a fake ski built around it. They get to be on the inside of the joke. The troll became real and the people laughing at the ski are laughing at the people trolled by it.
I have a feeling that we are arguing different points, you were disappointed in the way the email was presented, and I'm defending the joke. My conclusion remains, the ski was made for a fake skier that doesnt exist. Stephanie was an alter ego in a video that we presented as real, so it stands to reason that the marketing campaign would follow suit.
To IggySkier who said the ski or email was misogynist, come on man, do you really believe that? You think using a pink ski with unicorns is an overt oppression of women? You even said you made a ski with half naked chicks pillow fighting, i dont think you are the moral arbiter in this argument.
And lastly, i literally have a notepad of hashtags that i copy/paste on my instagrams. the use of #triggered and #feminism were not targeting anyone in that post, i encourage you to look at my posts and see how many times i've used them on unrelated pictures.
I have no issues with you at all and if you want to chat with me on FB about anything, i'm down. I never want my jokes to bleed into reality to the point where people think that i'm some sort of misogynist or anything else. I just have to defend my stance.
FunnelGodHola here's my opinion as a pretty informed ski chick. I'd like to point out that literally no one is mad at the design of the top sheet. Live, laugh, cork ~unfollow~ is probably the best new phrase I've heard this month. The trollin' videos and the skis themselves are funny. It was the branding and roll out of the design that were the problem. The things that bothered me most occurred after some of the comments were made.
1) Jason kept making pretty harsh and aggressive comments towards some girls only to delete them after an hour or so. If you're gonna make a statement - make it. His attitude did not play into the "it's just skiing" vibe at all so how can he expect fans to do the same?
2) J deleted all negative comments from insta
3) Stated that the root of this design was to highlight the shitty women's gear graphics typical to the industry. So instead of doing something positive about it they made a joke instead?!
4) I had a lot of respect for the way Steve responded to a comment with a 'I see the misunderstanding, here was our vision'. Although I don't agree with him it was a very respectful way to handle it.
5) BUT THEN Steve made an insta with hashtags #feminism and #triggered. Calling someone "Triggered" to me is the most pussy move you can make when someone challenges your opinion. Name calling solves nothing.
6) Steve stated that the skis "weren't marketed to females" but the title of the email was First Pro Model Women's Ski ... ???
7) The joke would have honestly been funnier if they left out the female pronouns and such. It takes the edge off and helps people not in on the joke get that it's a joke without stating the joke itself. Title of email could have been "worlds prettiest ski by the worlds prettiest skier" or something that might be even more fitting to the character? World's best kinda-female skier?
8. The comments made by many parties (Jlev included) obviously did not read the comments from any of the girls because they go off on shit about women's specific tech and flex and yadda yadda which has been made clear in every way possible that is not the problem. Girls who ski at the level that J skis make skis for are not ignorant to the ski tech they use nor do we want a special ski.
9) Most of the girls state they are disappointed not offended. Disappointed because they like and respect the company. The silliness of J skis is the best part so personally when I got an email with the First Pro Model Women's Ski I was pretty lit. I thought if anyone can make a girls graphic fun and not a pink fart it will be J skis. Girls like the witty sayings on the base and the funny graphics on top. But opening it to see a guy in a wig? Plz
10) J changed the caption on the original fb and insta posts and the website to state that Stephanie was Steve so new people to the convo don't see where the joke got lost. If this info was provided originally would there even be a fuss?
Final - They branded it seriously but took it as a joke. No matter what the context of the joke is, this isn't good business.
SteveSteppI have to weigh in here, i'm guessing you are one of the 2 girls who were outspoken on the FB thread since your talking points are essentially the same.
I have to reiterate the point that just because you were disappointed in the marketing campaign or the way the email was written doesnt grant you the right to demand a change in jSkis marketing. We obviously value your and other peoples opinion on this; J and i had a long phone conversation yesterday. Demanding a private company to change the way they do business because of someones personal misunderstanding seems to be common place now, and i have to stand up and defend it.
I promise you i'm not trying to attack or invalidate your opinion, but the context of the joke and situation absolutely matters. Like i said on FB, if this email campaign came from a company like K2 or Armada it would absolutely warrant concern like this. Again, you were on the email list so you must have had some idea of the content that J supports. This joke and others are what J has literally built his brand on and its not J's job to cater to a few people who arent in on the joke. Its in the motto of the company, "its just skiing". Its up to you to decide whether or not to be disappointed by this, and your misinterpretation of the email anyone else's responsibility. You even said you love the silliness of Jskis, so why should this be any different?
I honestly think if the ski came out immediately after the Mean Boys video last year, none of this would be happening. Since a year has gone by theres clearly been a disconnect.
I urge you to take the perspective of people who are IN on the joke. People couldnt believe that an internet joke from a fake persona has come so far as to have a fake ski built around it. They get to be on the inside of the joke. The troll became real and the people laughing at the ski are laughing at the people trolled by it.
I have a feeling that we are arguing different points, you were disappointed in the way the email was presented, and I'm defending the joke. My conclusion remains, the ski was made for a fake skier that doesnt exist. Stephanie was an alter ego in a video that we presented as real, so it stands to reason that the marketing campaign would follow suit.
To IggySkier who said the ski or email was misogynist, come on man, do you really believe that? You think using a pink ski with unicorns is an overt oppression of women? You even said you made a ski with half naked chicks pillow fighting, i dont think you are the moral arbiter in this argument.
And lastly, i literally have a notepad of hashtags that i copy/paste on my instagrams. the use of #triggered and #feminism were not targeting anyone in that post, i encourage you to look at my posts and see how many times i've used them on unrelated pictures.
I have no issues with you at all and if you want to chat with me on FB about anything, i'm down. I never want my jokes to bleed into reality to the point where people think that i'm some sort of misogynist or anything else. I just have to defend my stance.
Everyone needs to chill over the fact that J made a ski based on another one of Steve’s roles. So what it’s a fake person. I did not see an explosive response to the J “Kush” skis. Take a joke. I’d buy these skis.
SteveSteppNothing against Iggy, honestly, i can see why someone on the outside of the joke may have made that claim... but again, the context of this whole thing matters. He saw the episode, so he had the context and should have understood why its a unfounded claim to make.
I think his comment was more a rationale for expecting the response, rather than judging you and Jason for the graphic. Like accept that your brand of humour has the ability to offend - and own it. And acknowledge that those who are offended are, from their specific contextual knowledge and particular sensitivities, potentially valid in their beliefs. Let them be upset and move on. The reaction of a few people doesn't define you guys as misogynistic monsters.
It also just so happens you probably aren't "marketing" to them anyways, and more people (including women) find it funny than offensive so I imagine this all really works in your favour.
Well I guess this says a lot about where we are at in the world if a pink ski is such an issue.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the point of the Mean Girls Trollin to mock the way that female skiers were held back in a way? The whole no grabs allowed and shit? Haven't seen it in a minute so I'll have to rewatch. If so this ski is made for a Trollin persona, who brought up issues within the female ski community. Shouldn't that warrant a positive response?
I guess this kinda upsets me because it seems like a slippery slope. If people can't handle a topsheet what does that mean down the line. Do we say that the Apres Ski topsheet shouldn't be allowed because it glorifies alcoholism, and trivializes a very real issue? Of course not.
I feel that in today's world we forget that CONTEXT MATTERS and that not everyone will cater to your specific mindset.
A ski topsheet isn't causing anyone any harm and it is not misogynistic. Maybe worry about real issues like the how professional women athletes get paid a fraction of what men do, rather than some fucking pink cursive topsheet.
hot.pocketHow many different skis have you ridden in the past, say, 5 years? Also, you don't stay on top for very long if you only stick to what you know.
12, from 100 underfoot to 130, all in the pnw. I took my jesters off of my moment pb&js, mounted them on my metals, and turned the pb&js into shotskis even though they were perfectly skiable...there was no place in my quiver for that ski after i bought the metal. when was the last time moment changed that shape? oh yeah, literally never. look, i grew up skiing moguls in the east, and moved to the northwest 5 years ago, and i have been searching for the perfect quiver ever since. i have the money to search around for the best stuff, and thats the quiver ive chosen.
hotpocket always coming in so hot at me when i shill for j
12, from 100 underfoot to 130, all in the pnw. I took my jesters off of my moment pb&js, mounted them on my metals, and turned the pb&js into shotskis even though they were perfectly skiable...there was no place in my quiver for that ski after i bought the metal. when was the last time moment changed that shape? oh yeah, literally never. look, i grew up skiing moguls in the east, and moved to the northwest 5 years ago, and i have been searching for the perfect quiver ever since. i have the money to search around for the best stuff, and thats the quiver ive chosen.
hotpocket always coming in so hot at me when i shill for j
Not commenting on J's skis or anything, haven't skied them so I don't know how they perform. I will say that J Skis is young enough that I don't really notice them "not changing". They started off with 2 models?? Now they have like 6? The skis might not receive an update. IDK, nothing special really sticks out to me.. but I would be down to spin a few laps on a pair at some point, just to see. Those new pink top sheets do look sick tho.
However, while Moment may not change the shape of the PB&J, they have tried a different shape on the Bibby, introduced new skis, discontinued skis, etc. I believe they have also used different cores on different models and such. Pointing out one ski in a line doesn't define the whole line.
SteveSteppOK so i didnt catch that bit about Iggy seeing the humor in both graphics, so apologies there, but I still think his claim is unfounded. I was trying to say that calling me, Jskis, or the graphic misogynistic seemed hypocritical coming from him. Not only that, it just seemed unwarranted given the topic of Stephanie as a character. Not to mention, admitting your own graphic being misogynistic doesnt give you some special right or moral high ground to call out someone else, especially when your graphic has no context or back story.
I could see that criticism being much more valid if it were directed at another ski company that had put out this graphic. However I think its fair to assume that Iggy saw the Mean Girls episode. Given that, it was surprising to hear him hurl that claim. Just because the ski is pink and has cheesy cliche instagram quotes doesnt, and shouldnt, lead someone to believe its an overt expression of misogyny or a devaluing of all women. This is why my argument for context matters so much. The ski was built for a fictional character who embodies those traits (and colors).
Although i dont get offended often or easily, this bothered me purely because its an inaccurate portrayal of me, my content, and my values. I made that episode under the guise of "all people being equal", in this sense, equal to be the subject of a joke or satire.
Nothing against Iggy, honestly, i can see why someone on the outside of the joke may have made that claim... but again, the context of this whole thing matters. He saw the episode, so he had the context and should have understood why its a unfounded claim to make.
As for J's comments, i honestly dont know. I highly doubt he deleted comments because on our phone conversation he was asking me whether or not he should take the whole thread down. I urged him not to and he said he wouldnt and that'd he change the caption instead. i havent seen any comments that arent there anymore, so I doubt he deleted anything.
Steve you donut! and everyone else in this goddamn thread don't use "its a joke" or use the fictional nature of steve's "character" to justify this horrible piece of misogynistic thought. It doesn't really matter where your intent is at, if its a joke, criticizing the industry and its ideology, or whatever else was a part of the process. It's not your place or any other ski-bro here to make the decisions about what should and shouldn't offend people in this context. Leave women's skiing alone if you're going to make jokes and not be supportive. Even though satire might seem to you like a productive way to critique the industry's conventions, it isn't. You're in an influential place and your'e normalizing a unproductive ways of thinking. There's a lot that's been written about satire working towards the normalization of oppression and I suggest reading into it, might seem excessive but all areas of thought influence each other and this situation is very much a product of misogyny, it just might be enmeshed into the fabric of your thought to the point that you don't notice it.
J skis/Steve what's even the point in defending yourself? Are you uncomfortable because some people pointed out that you are actually either misogynist or just diluted and don't understand misogyny, just apologize and move on. There's obviously a problem with the way people look at gender in the industry and you're choosing to make jokes instead of work towards making it better, and that's going to #trigger people.
It's cringey to see dudes approach this subject this way, the "context of this thing" doesn't matter. Grow up guys
12, from 100 underfoot to 130, all in the pnw. I took my jesters off of my moment pb&js, mounted them on my metals, and turned the pb&js into shotskis even though they were perfectly skiable...there was no place in my quiver for that ski after i bought the metal. when was the last time moment changed that shape? oh yeah, literally never. look, i grew up skiing moguls in the east, and moved to the northwest 5 years ago, and i have been searching for the perfect quiver ever since. i have the money to search around for the best stuff, and thats the quiver ive chosen.
hotpocket always coming in so hot at me when i shill for j
You didn't like one ski so you shit on the entire company? That's fucking stupid. Moment has made some great skis over the years. Though, some aren't my personal cup of tea.
Why would they change the pb&j? It does it's job extremely well and it's a classic shape. What would you have wanted out of the ski that you didn't get?
The problem when somebody doesn't like a ski, is that they bought the wrong ski for their personal situation.....not that the ski makers build a bad ski.
Also turning a perfectly good ski into a shot ski is fucked up. There are tons of people out there that can't afford skiing and need gear/gearwhores who would have loved those in their quiver.
There's my moment of butthurt for the day in the butthurt thread.
LonelyMaybe worry about real issues like the how professional women athletes get paid a fraction of what men do, rather than some fucking pink cursive topsheet.
Sounds like someone needs a lesson in how advertising dollars work...
PNSkierSounds like someone needs a lesson in how advertising dollars work...
Sure maybe I do. I think your referencing how there are less ads on women's events than men's, so women make less money.
It seems to have gone over your head but what I was trying to say was a ski topsheet isn't holding anyone down, Idk if you read the rest of the thread or not.
GoosefiendsSteve you donut! and everyone else in this goddamn thread don't use "its a joke" or use the fictional nature of steve's "character" to justify this horrible piece of misogynistic thought. It doesn't really matter where your intent is at, if its a joke, criticizing the industry and its ideology, or whatever else was a part of the process. It's not your place or any other ski-bro here to make the decisions about what should and shouldn't offend people in this context. Leave women's skiing alone if you're going to make jokes and not be supportive. Even though satire might seem to you like a productive way to critique the industry's conventions, it isn't. You're in an influential place and your'e normalizing a unproductive ways of thinking. There's a lot that's been written about satire working towards the normalization of oppression and I suggest reading into it, might seem excessive but all areas of thought influence each other and this situation is very much a product of misogyny, it just might be enmeshed into the fabric of your thought to the point that you don't notice it.
J skis/Steve what's even the point in defending yourself? Are you uncomfortable because some people pointed out that you are actually either misogynist or just diluted and don't understand misogyny, just apologize and move on. There's obviously a problem with the way people look at gender in the industry and you're choosing to make jokes instead of work towards making it better, and that's going to #trigger people.
It's cringey to see dudes approach this subject this way, the "context of this thing" doesn't matter. Grow up guys
This is getting ridiculous. Stop making skiing a political issue. You want us to become like the NFL? Because that's where you're headed. NO one has a tolerance for jokes anymore, or the nerve to take 5 minutes and look at the big picture before calling something offensive.
You want to think it's ok to get up on a pedestal & preach loud enough that no one else's thoughts matter, on a pink ski passed on satire for shits sake.
So far this thread has been a good discussion, from all sides, but this is very bothersome. I'm pretty sure men with this "influential place" have the awareness to not ruin our own industry. And TONS of these men actively appreciate chicks who ride. To people who can actually take a joke and want to support something that doesn't follow the narrative, comments like this is why no one can have fun anymore. Unproductive thinking? How about thinking outside of the box, making something that compliments a series of videos that have all made us laugh. If you can't even laugh at yourself, then you shouldn't be able to judge anyone else.
GoosefiendsSteve you donut! and everyone else in this goddamn thread don't use "its a joke" or use the fictional nature of steve's "character" to justify this horrible piece of misogynistic thought. It doesn't really matter where your intent is at, if its a joke, criticizing the industry and its ideology, or whatever else was a part of the process. It's not your place or any other ski-bro here to make the decisions about what should and shouldn't offend people in this context. Leave women's skiing alone if you're going to make jokes and not be supportive. Even though satire might seem to you like a productive way to critique the industry's conventions, it isn't. You're in an influential place and your'e normalizing a unproductive ways of thinking. There's a lot that's been written about satire working towards the normalization of oppression and I suggest reading into it, might seem excessive but all areas of thought influence each other and this situation is very much a product of misogyny, it just might be enmeshed into the fabric of your thought to the point that you don't notice it.
J skis/Steve what's even the point in defending yourself? Are you uncomfortable because some people pointed out that you are actually either misogynist or just diluted and don't understand misogyny, just apologize and move on. There's obviously a problem with the way people look at gender in the industry and you're choosing to make jokes instead of work towards making it better, and that's going to #trigger people.
It's cringey to see dudes approach this subject this way, the "context of this thing" doesn't matter. Grow up guys
12, from 100 underfoot to 130, all in the pnw. I took my jesters off of my moment pb&js, mounted them on my metals, and turned the pb&js into shotskis even though they were perfectly skiable...there was no place in my quiver for that ski after i bought the metal. when was the last time moment changed that shape? oh yeah, literally never. look, i grew up skiing moguls in the east, and moved to the northwest 5 years ago, and i have been searching for the perfect quiver ever since. i have the money to search around for the best stuff, and thats the quiver ive chosen.
hotpocket always coming in so hot at me when i shill for j
It's moronic to compare a funshape hybrid park ski with an all mountain, non jib directional ski with titanal. I have a Kartel 108, and an Influence 105. I don't consider them competitiors in my quiver. I consider them different tools for different jobs.
Moment don't change the PB&J because it's good for what it is intended for. Just like J made The Metal, but it's pretty much just a line Prophet 106. Because the Prophet is a good ski for it's intended purpose.
LonelySure maybe I do. I think your referencing how there are less ads on women's events than men's, so women make less money.
It seems to have gone over your head but what I was trying to say was a ski topsheet isn't holding anyone down, Idk if you read the rest of the thread or not.
But that’s not what you said. You said we should more importantly be focusing on the referenced issue, thus shifting your argument to another topic.
But you also forgot less viewers/attendance in women’s events which in turn leads to less advertising dollars which in turn makes it less profitable which in turn means less amount to payout to the athletes. Doesn’t mean they don’t deserve it, just doesn’t work with within the current operation of the market.
PNSkierBut that’s not what you said. You said we should more importantly be focusing on the referenced issue, thus shifting your argument to another topic.
But you also forgot less viewers/attendance in women’s events which in turn leads to less advertising dollars which in turn makes it less profitable which in turn means less amount to payout to the athletes. Doesn’t mean they don’t deserve it, just doesn’t work with within the current operation of the market.
I don't think its wrong to say that the other issue is more important, but it was intended to be a comparison to give context to those who shout misogyny because of pink lettering.
I was simply mocking those who take this ski topsheet to be a huge issue and misogynistic. I was using the amount that women athletes get paid as a comparison or context to show that a ski topsheet is not inherently misogynistic as some people in this thread are making it out to be. What is potentially misogynistic ( of course there are a ton of variables) is the way that women athletes get paid a fraction of what men do. Some people like to blanket anything remotely upsetting into sexism, which is inaccurate.. Ski topsheet=/=Misogyny all I'm trying to say.
FunnelGodHola here's my opinion as a pretty informed ski chick.
Funny because the rest of your post suggests you're a fucking idiot who takes herself and skiing too seriously. Maybe your upper middle-class life is so boring that you need to get angry over something so you can proclaim you're fighting for women's rights in order to add some value in your otherwise pointless existence. Either way, social media justice warriors like you are dime-a-dozen and you're all equally terrible.
.lencon
Just put in my vote for the 18th annual powder awards!
With all this unwarranted hate going on, I feel like Stephanie really deserves some credit. VOTE FOR STEPHANIE! #stephaniesteppismywonderwoman #freetheunicorn #grabsdomatter #corkitoutgirl
GoosefiendsIt doesn't really matter where your intent is at, if its a joke, criticizing the industry and its ideology, or whatever else was a part of the process. It's not your place or any other ski-bro here to make the decisions about what should and shouldn't offend people in this context.
You are completely incorrect, intent has everything to do with it. Intent is what separates true malcontent and true satire. Like i said before, its not my job to control your emotions and perceived outrage. Its entirely up to you to decide whether or not to be offended. You even said it yourself, its not my job to decide what should/shouldnt offend people, that resides with viewer. You have a choice here; you can either choose to parse out the intent of the joke and rationalize away your outrage with the true message, or you can continue to be offended by willingly ignoring it. Its called cognitive dissonance and thats literally the crux of satire.
GoosefiendsLeave women's skiing alone if you're going to make jokes and not be supportive. Even though satire might seem to you like a productive way to critique the industry's conventions, it isn't. You're in an influential place and your'e normalizing a unproductive ways of thinking.
Leave womens skiing alone? As if its an untouchable topic for satire? What makes one part of our sport off-limits but another fair game, and who are you to decide? I said on FB, I hold the same mindset for each episode... All people and facets created equal. Satirizing womens skiing or overly gangster style should be up for criticism equally. By taking womens skiing off the market, I could argue that you are subconsciously admitting that women are so less valuable to our community that they dont deserve to be on the same platform of satirization as men, or any other facet of skiing. If anything, you are not upholding women to the same standard as men, i think theres a word for that.
Curious, what for of "unproductive thinking" and I perpetuating? There was literally nothing about the ski that subverts womens or womens skiing. I made a pact with myself and Saga when i started Trollin 5 years ago that I would never make malicious callouts or content that blatantly hurts anyone. Unless their minds have changed since i released the episode, I had asked directly to Maddie Bowman, Devin Logan, Brita Sig, and a bunch of high caliber girl skiers if they were bothered by it. None of them were.
GoosefiendsThere's a lot that's been written about satire working towards the normalization of oppression and I suggest reading into it, might seem excessive but all areas of thought influence each other and this situation is very much a product of misogyny, it just might be enmeshed into the fabric of your thought to the point that you don't notice it.
I'm sorry but I dont buy into this stuff at all. This is the slippery slope the Lonely mentioned in his post. If you start to control acceptable/unacceptable jokes, we end up with people walking on eggshells and creativity/comedy gets stifled. This idea of implicit bias and misogyny enmeshed in this topsheet or video is just a cop-out argument to make your point seem more valid. "You're being sexist even if you dont know it, and i know this for a fact even though i have no way of proving this". I can turn this idea back around to you on your comment about women not being valid subjects for satire. Even though you think you werent being misogynist, you actually are being a misogynist because its deeply ingrained in your mind. I have no evidence of this, but its true.
GoosefiendsJ skis/Steve what's even the point in defending yourself? Are you uncomfortable because some people pointed out that you are actually either misogynist or just diluted and don't understand misogyny, just apologize and move on. There's obviously a problem with the way people look at gender in the industry and you're choosing to make jokes instead of work towards making it better, and that's going to #trigger people.
I said in my last post why I'm defending myself, because i'm being misrepresented and accused of things that arent true. I love what Kevski said:
KevskiLike accept that your brand of humour has the ability to offend - and own it. And acknowledge that those who are offended are, from their specific contextual knowledge and particular sensitivities, potentially valid in their beliefs. Let them be upset and move on. The reaction of a few people doesn't define you guys as misogynistic monsters.
I always expect criticism of my videos, but i have to stand up for myself against accusations that attack my character.
GoosefiendsIt's cringey to see dudes approach this subject this way, the "context of this thing" doesn't matter. Grow up guys
The only thing cringey here is the inability to see why context does in fact matter. If a man quotes someone who screams "I hate women" it does not have the same context as him screaming "I hate women" before knocking a girl to the ground. The first scenario has a different context than the second, but he's saying the exact same sentence. If you dont parse out the context, then you are holding the first guy to the same standard as the second, which is completely horrible
SteveSteppYou are completely incorrect, intent has everything to do with it. Intent is what separates true malcontent and true satire. Like i said before, its not my job to control your emotions and perceived outrage. Its entirely up to you to decide whether or not to be offended. You even said it yourself, its not my job to decide what should/shouldnt offend people, that resides with viewer. You have a choice here; you can either choose to parse out the intent of the joke and rationalize away your outrage with the true message, or you can continue to be offended by willingly ignoring it. Its called cognitive dissonance and thats literally the crux of satire.
Leave womens skiing alone? As if its an untouchable topic for satire? What makes one part of our sport off-limits but another fair game, and who are you to decide? I said on FB, I hold the same mindset for each episode... All people and facets created equal. Satirizing womens skiing or overly gangster style should be up for criticism equally. By taking womens skiing off the market, I could argue that you are subconsciously admitting that women are so less valuable to our community that they dont deserve to be on the same platform of satirization as men, or any other facet of skiing. If anything, you are not upholding women to the same standard as men, i think theres a word for that.
Curious, what for of "unproductive thinking" and I perpetuating? There was literally nothing about the ski that subverts womens or womens skiing. I made a pact with myself and Saga when i started Trollin 5 years ago that I would never make malicious callouts or content that blatantly hurts anyone. Unless their minds have changed since i released the episode, I had asked directly to Maddie Bowman, Devin Logan, Brita Sig, and a bunch of high caliber girl skiers if they were bothered by it. None of them were.
I'm sorry but I dont buy into this stuff at all. This is the slippery slope the Lonely mentioned in his post. If you start to control acceptable/unacceptable jokes, we end up with people walking on eggshells and creativity/comedy gets stifled. This idea of implicit bias and misogyny enmeshed in this topsheet or video is just a cop-out argument to make your point seem more valid. "You're being sexist even if you dont know it, and i know this for a fact even though i have no way of proving this". I can turn this idea back around to you on your comment about women not being valid subjects for satire. Even though you think you werent being misogynist, you actually are being a misogynist because its deeply ingrained in your mind. I have no evidence of this, but its true.
I said in my last post why I'm defending myself, because i'm being misrepresented and accused of things that arent true. I love what Kevski said:
I always expect criticism of my videos, but i have to stand up for myself against accusations that attack my character.
The only thing cringey here is the inability to see why context does in fact matter. If a man quotes someone who screams "I hate women" it does not have the same context as him screaming "I hate women" before knocking a girl to the ground. The first scenario has a different context than the second, but he's saying the exact same sentence. If you dont parse out the context, then you are holding the first guy to the same standard as the second, which is completely horrible
SteveSteppYou are completely incorrect, intent has everything to do with it. Intent is what separates true malcontent and true satire. Like i said before, its not my job to control your emotions and perceived outrage. Its entirely up to you to decide whether or not to be offended. You even said it yourself, its not my job to decide what should/shouldnt offend people, that resides with viewer. You have a choice here; you can either choose to parse out the intent of the joke and rationalize away your outrage with the true message, or you can continue to be offended by willingly ignoring it. Its called cognitive dissonance and thats literally the crux of satire.
Leave womens skiing alone? As if its an untouchable topic for satire? What makes one part of our sport off-limits but another fair game, and who are you to decide? I said on FB, I hold the same mindset for each episode... All people and facets created equal. Satirizing womens skiing or overly gangster style should be up for criticism equally. By taking womens skiing off the market, I could argue that you are subconsciously admitting that women are so less valuable to our community that they dont deserve to be on the same platform of satirization as men, or any other facet of skiing. If anything, you are not upholding women to the same standard as men, i think theres a word for that.
Curious, what for of "unproductive thinking" and I perpetuating? There was literally nothing about the ski that subverts womens or womens skiing. I made a pact with myself and Saga when i started Trollin 5 years ago that I would never make malicious callouts or content that blatantly hurts anyone. Unless their minds have changed since i released the episode, I had asked directly to Maddie Bowman, Devin Logan, Brita Sig, and a bunch of high caliber girl skiers if they were bothered by it. None of them were.
I'm sorry but I dont buy into this stuff at all. This is the slippery slope the Lonely mentioned in his post. If you start to control acceptable/unacceptable jokes, we end up with people walking on eggshells and creativity/comedy gets stifled. This idea of implicit bias and misogyny enmeshed in this topsheet or video is just a cop-out argument to make your point seem more valid. "You're being sexist even if you dont know it, and i know this for a fact even though i have no way of proving this". I can turn this idea back around to you on your comment about women not being valid subjects for satire. Even though you think you werent being misogynist, you actually are being a misogynist because its deeply ingrained in your mind. I have no evidence of this, but its true.
I said in my last post why I'm defending myself, because i'm being misrepresented and accused of things that arent true. I love what Kevski said:
I always expect criticism of my videos, but i have to stand up for myself against accusations that attack my character.
The only thing cringey here is the inability to see why context does in fact matter. If a man quotes someone who screams "I hate women" it does not have the same context as him screaming "I hate women" before knocking a girl to the ground. The first scenario has a different context than the second, but he's saying the exact same sentence. If you dont parse out the context, then you are holding the first guy to the same standard as the second, which is completely horrible
I think what probably annoys more is that instead of taking th effort to develop a womans ski, J kinda cheaped out and fired up photshop instead of CAD. And then just kinda mocked the whole idea of it of womens skiing. I get both sides. Chicks have been marginalized and made fun of, especially in freeskiing and on this site almost as a culture. And i get that you like to make a funny.
But it is what it is. You guys probably just should have let it go and not responded to the social media callouts. You know like when someone gets called a racist, but then puts so much effort in to proclaiming they aren't a racist....that just makes them seem MORE racist.
skiermanWith all this unwarranted hate going on, I feel like Stephanie really deserves some credit. VOTE FOR STEPHANIE! #stephaniesteppismywonderwoman #freetheunicorn #grabsdomatter #corkitoutgirl
.lenconAlso, the whole women's ski thing is a joke. People act like girl skis need to be so different. Girl skis are fine. Men skis are fine. I know girls who could use a longer and stiffer ski. I also know girls who like pink top sheets. I also know girls that are only 5' tall so they will never ride a ski that is 170cm+
People make such a big deal out of womens skis..
There are plenty of skis and companies that either gender could ride just fine. People need to stop bagging on skis so much and just go out and ride.
Yo I'm 5'0 and about 100ish pounds and I ride a 171-175cm ski depending on the day. Never say never dude I know plenty of girls my size who rip and need something stiffer and longer than your generic women's ski. I wouldn't go as far as saying that women's skis are fine, SOME women's skis are fine, I know there's *usually* not a difference between mens/womens skis but there's still a bunch of companies out there still making shitty looking and performing women's skis that are made different than the so called men's skis.Yes there's some small less aggressive women out there who do need a softer, shorter skis but they make that shit already for them. My two cents on the whole *women's ski* bullshit coming from a competitor and a small person. I won't even start with the problem with ski boots but..... You get the picture. Not trying to be "bagging on skis" but there's still a problem with a lot of skis made specifically for women.
I see a lot of very strongly worded arguments stating that Steve is a "mysoginist" or that this is a blatant poke at women's skiing, you can't joke about women or women's skiing should be supported.
Firstly, saying that you cannot make jokes about women's skiing because it not appropriate only adds fuel the flames by inferring that women deserve special treatment and therefore that they are inferior. Doesn't pass on the best message now does it. I you truly want to be equally respected and treated then you should be willing to take the same crap the guys have to take.
Secondly, it is quite understandable that many people misunderstood Steve and Jays intentions. People complained. Steve and J have since made statements explaining their true intentions and J even changed the post title so that it would be more obvious it was a joke. We have to be able to trust these guys and accept that maybe we were the ones who got it wrong. "Sorry J and Steve for misunderstanding you." Might be a good place today start. Continually posting more comments about what you "know" their true intentions were after they have openly explained themselves is just counter productive.
Lastly, no one hates on women and especially not women's skiing. We were all devastated to hear about Kelly's injury, just jump on over to that thread to read all the support she has received. Tatum Monod had a whole segment in Level 1s Habit this year and in my opinion it was only bettered by Killbrides. You can focus on the very few negative examples but don't ignore all the hugely positive examples before you make a blanket statement about men attitudes towards women in skiing.
Steve and J have explained themselves, please read what they have said before posting anymore accusations about what you "know" they really meant.
**This post was edited on Oct 19th 2017 at 3:06:52pm
.lencon
Just put in my vote for the 18th annual powder awards!
skiermanWith all this unwarranted hate going on, I feel like Stephanie really deserves some credit. VOTE FOR STEPHANIE! #stephaniesteppismywonderwoman #freetheunicorn #grabsdomatter #corkitoutgirl
skiponieYo I'm 5'0 and about 100ish pounds and I ride a 171-175cm ski depending on the day. Never say never dude I know plenty of girls my size who rip and need something stiffer and longer than your generic women's ski. I wouldn't go as far as saying that women's skis are fine, SOME women's skis are fine, I know there's *usually* not a difference between mens/womens skis but there's still a bunch of companies out there still making shitty looking and performing women's skis that are made different than the so called men's skis.Yes there's some small less aggressive women out there who do need a softer, shorter skis but they make that shit already for them. My two cents on the whole *women's ski* bullshit coming from a competitor and a small person. I won't even start with the problem with ski boots but..... You get the picture. Not trying to be "bagging on skis" but there's still a problem with a lot of skis made specifically for women.
You can complain about boots all you want. I know there's a problem with that.
and good for you that you ride 170ish skis. You ski ON3P right? No problem with what they are doing. You're chillin.
out of all the girls I know who shred, only one rides anything in a 170 length, that's all I'm trying to say. Not saying there aren't women out there who want longer skis or are taller than 5'.
hell, I'm a small dude and all my skis are in the 180s now.
all just preference, but I honestly think there are plenty of options ski wise for both men and women.
Man for a bunch of "Bums" that typically want to steer clear of office jobs, y'all are pretty damn good at getting riled up over a simple sales email. Maybe the corporate life is for you?
TheSmokinLThis is getting ridiculous. Stop making skiing a political issue. You want us to become like the NFL? Because that's where you're headed. NO one has a tolerance for jokes anymore, or the nerve to take 5 minutes and look at the big picture before calling something offensive.
You want to think it's ok to get up on a pedestal & preach loud enough that no one else's thoughts matter, on a pink ski passed on satire for shits sake.
So far this thread has been a good discussion, from all sides, but this is very bothersome. I'm pretty sure men with this "influential place" have the awareness to not ruin our own industry. And TONS of these men actively appreciate chicks who ride. To people who can actually take a joke and want to support something that doesn't follow the narrative, comments like this is why no one can have fun anymore. Unproductive thinking? How about thinking outside of the box, making something that compliments a series of videos that have all made us laugh. If you can't even laugh at yourself, then you shouldn't be able to judge anyone else.
.lenconYou can complain about boots all you want. I know there's a problem with that.
and good for you that you ride 170ish skis. You ski ON3P right? No problem with what they are doing. You're chillin.
out of all the girls I know who shred, only one rides anything in a 170 length, that's all I'm trying to say. Not saying there aren't women out there who want longer skis or are taller than 5'.
hell, I'm a small dude and all my skis are in the 180s now.
all just preference, but I honestly think there are plenty of options ski wise for both men and women.
Yeah totally I agree with ya on that, and yes I'm VERY happy I finally landed on a company that actually makes skis that I like. (Go ON3P!) And they AREN'T PINK! I personally hate pink but you're right there's still girls who like a pink girly looking ski. But yes i completely agree with the point that there's literally thousands of skis to choose from and regardless of your gender, size, color preference, or skiing ability.
I personally struggled with this "pink and shrink" in the past only because I couldn't afford to buy skis so I got sponsored because of my skiing ability and I got some soft-ass pink skis that I just had to go out and compete on. But then I got my shit together and I switched ski companies so there's always options of course which I think a lot of girl's oversee.
As far as the joke goes, yes it's pretty damn funny and I'm surprised people are taking it to another level of arguing. People love to argue though we all know that. I think they definitely could have worded the announcement better, but shit happens and in the end all you can do is #goskiingwithyourfriends
skiponieYeah totally I agree with ya on that, and yes I'm VERY happy I finally landed on a company that actually makes skis that I like. (Go ON3P!) And they AREN'T PINK! I personally hate pink but you're right there's still girls who like a pink girly looking ski. But yes i completely agree with the point that there's literally thousands of skis to choose from and regardless of your gender, size, color preference, or skiing ability.
I personally struggled with this "pink and shrink" in the past only because I couldn't afford to buy skis so I got sponsored because of my skiing ability and I got some soft-ass pink skis that I just had to go out and compete on. But then I got my shit together and I switched ski companies so there's always options of course which I think a lot of girl's oversee.
As far as the joke goes, yes it's pretty damn funny and I'm surprised people are taking it to another level of arguing. People love to argue though we all know that. I think they definitely could have worded the announcement better, but shit happens and in the end all you can do is #goskiingwithyourfriends
Exactly. All just preference. Glad you got on some skis you like. The girl who shreds the hardest who I know personally is your size, but she skis on some Salomons. Probably in a 158ish. They're the women's version of the QST, just smaller and purple:) she shreds em and loves em.
seems like girls like you who are picky (and no shame in being picky, I can get picky with some things too) know what they are looking for and aren't falling victim to all the marketing pink and shrink anyways.
SessionI think what probably annoys more is that instead of taking th effort to develop a womans ski, J kinda cheaped out and fired up photshop instead of CAD. And then just kinda mocked the whole idea of it of womens skiing. I get both sides. Chicks have been marginalized and made fun of, especially in freeskiing and on this site almost as a culture. And i get that you like to make a funny.
But it is what it is. You guys probably just should have let it go and not responded to the social media callouts. You know like when someone gets called a racist, but then puts so much effort in to proclaiming they aren't a racist....that just makes them seem MORE racist.
I mean i agree to an extent. I think now we're talking in circles and past each other. There are now several tributary arguments stemming from the original. We already know that for the most part mens and womens skis are identical in construction, so the resolution of a tiny ski company building a type of brand new womens ski from the ground up seems costly and ineffective.
You're right that maybe neither of us should have responded, but again, i think the response was warranted given the mischaracterization of the argument, and misinterpretation of the marketing. Like i said, normally i dont respond but when my character and motives are attack i need to defend them
On this site its easy to find an example of literally anyone being marginalized and made fun of. Toms hair, Gus and his sexuality, me looking like willy wonka or being an am. Its not exclusive to girls, and its surprising that you'd make that distinction. I would even argue that women on this site get an enormous amount of support from our peers, i cant think of an example of them being marginalized outside of maybe a few random petty shitposts, please correct me if you have a stark example.
I look at the world and this site from the position of social optimism, that most people are good people. The site is a good example. For every instance of hate, theres a thousand instances of support. Focusing on a few bad eggs distorts perception of reality, in my view.
To your racist comment, again, i dont buy into those arguments at all. Defending your position doesnt make you more accountable to the claim, thats insane. Especially when the claim is this serious. If I call you a racist or misogynist right now and you defend yourself, I'm sorry to say but you are just proving me right, you're racist. Now by defending yourself you immediately become a racist?
These types of arguments are very surface-level and are used to baselessly validate your stance and end the debate. To me thats poor conduct especially when we are all trying to have a rational discussion.
SteveSteppI mean i agree to an extent. I think now we're talking in circles and past each other. There are now several tributary arguments stemming from the original. We already know that for the most part mens and womens skis are identical in construction, so the resolution of a tiny ski company building a type of brand new womens ski from the ground up seems costly and ineffective.
You're right that maybe neither of us should have responded, but again, i think the response was warranted given the mischaracterization of the argument, and misinterpretation of the marketing. Like i said, normally i dont respond but when my character and motives are attack i need to defend them
On this site its easy to find an example of literally anyone being marginalized and made fun of. Toms hair, Gus and his sexuality, me looking like willy wonka or being an am. Its not exclusive to girls, and its surprising that you'd make that distinction. I would even argue that women on this site get an enormous amount of support from our peers, i cant think of an example of them being marginalized outside of maybe a few random petty shitposts, please correct me if you have a stark example.
I look at the world and this site from the position of social optimism, that most people are good people. The site is a good example. For every instance of hate, theres a thousand instances of support. Focusing on a few bad eggs distorts perception of reality, in my view.
To your racist comment, again, i dont buy into those arguments at all. Defending your position doesnt make you more accountable to the claim, thats insane. Especially when the claim is this serious. If I call you a racist or misogynist right now and you defend yourself, I'm sorry to say but you are just proving me right, you're racist. Now by defending yourself you immediately become a racist?
These types of arguments are very surface-level and are used to baselessly validate your stance and end the debate. To me thats poor conduct especially when we are all trying to have a rational discussion.
Steve, I would love to hang out with you one of these days.
KevskiI think his comment was more a rationale for expecting the response, rather than judging you and Jason for the graphic. Like accept that your brand of humour has the ability to offend - and own it. And acknowledge that those who are offended are, from their specific contextual knowledge and particular sensitivities, potentially valid in their beliefs. Let them be upset and move on. The reaction of a few people doesn't define you guys as misogynistic monsters.
Someone actually read what I wrote. Thanks Kevski!
R-EDI see a lot of very strongly worded arguments stating that Steve is a "mysoginist"
I think those reading this as a personal attack on Steve, including Steve, and specifically the "pink" topsheet are missing the point.
Please read exactly what I wrote in my first post:
"the reason the joke is funny is fundamentally based in misogyny"
There is no personal attack here. I have no personal issue with Steve, the email, the topsheet, or the video (which, for full transparency, I just saw for the first time yesterday). I think all our hilarious. At most, I'm commenting about skiing as a whole.
The edits intent is to satirize women's skiing. It's the shock that some people could find that sexist, context aside, that surprises me. As Kevski said very well - "own it". The videos intent is not to denigrate - it was extremely well done satire - so say that.
My issue is the indignation and gaslighting that has followed suggesting that context precludes people from having opinions that are contrary to the creators intent. That a branding piece satirizing women's skiing comes off as sexist to some people is not surprising - especially since (as this thread is evidence), women's skiing is not viewed in the same light as men's.
I or no one else here is a moral arbiter. That is the point of my response here.
"You don't get the context" does not overrule the offense of other people - regardless of if that offense is right or wrong. The attempts to state that those offended are wrong because "they don't get it" is my issue.
It's ok to acknowledge a different opinion without stating that the opposing party is inherently wrong.
Again, something I stated in my initial post.
"it surprises me that people can't see how it could offend others"
Steve - obviously several very long responses in here - hard for me to find the time to read them fully let alone respond much during a work day. I'm happy to talk more direct or respond later - though honestly, I have no bone to pick here. I wasn't personally offended nor do I believe you are misogynistic - I said I was surprised that you were shocked people could view the video and corresponding ski as such.
Jskis is in a unique position to take these sort of humorous projects - and both you and J are incredibly savvy marketers and creators.
I think you are both adult enough to acknowledge that the joke at the heart of the edit - which was fantastically done satire - could be viewed as sexist by some that watch it. The ski was an extension of that. You surely accepted that when you put both out, some offense might come. That is fine - and if I were you, I wouldn't have changed a thing.
The surprise at the offense, and the refusal to acknowledge that there is any merit to it, context and intent aside, is why I posted. Though obviously I share an unpopular opinion, I felt it should be voiced.
I'll swing back in later - or reach out to me direct - if you feel you would like me to elaborate more.
