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J Lev buys 4Frnt

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Mattgeraghty3
Posts: 122 - Karma: 374
Just starting this thread to get peoples opinions on J Lev buying 4Frnt. I personally think its an amazing move an exactly what our ski community needs right now. With this acquisition it seems 4frnt will have huge scope to grow and be a major competitor with some of the bigger brands out there. On the other hand could affect the direction of the company and reduce the amount of ideas coming from different companies what do people think???
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Jun 27 2017 5:57PM
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MVoller
Posts: 59 - Karma: 245
Judging by the article it shouldn't change 4frnts direction very much if at all, because the same people are running it out the same factory, just with a little bit more money to spend
Jun 27 2017 6:06PM
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hot.pocket
Posts: 4225 - Karma: 10,622
Damn same title and everything
Jun 27 2017 6:56PM
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chris.goodhue
Posts: 946 - Karma: 6,209
It's gunna be good. 4FRNT makes dope skis, I feel like they are pretty underrated and have fallen out of the "new wave" trendyness as far as social media presence, marketing exct. Hopefully J can steer them back in the right direction.

Also the 4FRNT Hoji is the best charging pow ski I've ever had....
Jun 27 2017 8:37PM
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mr-mcsteeze
Posts: 487 - Karma: 1,103
chris.goodhueIt's gunna be good. 4FRNT makes dope skis, I feel like they are pretty underrated and have fallen out of the "new wave" trendyness as far as social media presence, marketing exct. Hopefully J can steer them back in the right direction.


This. 4frnt makes great skis but there marketing recently has fallen pretty hard compared to companies like faction, j skis, armada. Hopefully they can pick up some new athletes and really change up the scene
Jun 28 2017 3:49AM
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snomaster
Posts: 3344 - Karma: 5,748
mr-mcsteezeHopefully they can pick up some new athletes and really change up the scene

Ha!
Just like Coreupt eh?
How 'bout this instead:
Build dope skis. Execute a sustainable business plan that concedes perpetual growth is not realistic. Shy away from expensive risks (bindings). Support the scene within a budget.
Jun 28 2017 12:20PM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 9267 - Karma: 60,728
snomasterShy away from expensive risks (bindings)


ha id almost forgotten that whole ordeal. pretty important in the history of line skis. it was an admirable idea but the execution was...bad
Jun 28 2017 12:30PM
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dizzydizzy
Posts: 302 - Karma: 1,023
SofaKingSickha id almost forgotten that whole ordeal. pretty important in the history of line skis. it was an admirable idea but the execution was...bad


I always assumed the bindings were just a repainted version of the tyrolias that were being made at the time? they look nearly identical, and i cant imagine that 4frnt would put the level of r&d necessary into building a competitive binding given their size
Jun 28 2017 1:59PM
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Sharko
Posts: 2274 - Karma: 4,101
dizzydizzyI always assumed the bindings were just a repainted version of the tyrolias that were being made at the time? they look nearly identical, and i cant imagine that 4frnt would put the level of r&d necessary into building a competitive binding given their size


I think he's referring to the old Line Skis bindings from around 2005/6. They were on these plastic plates with 4 holes in them, and the Line skis of the time had 4 corresponding threaded inserts in the skis. This allowed you to have 1 set of bindings for multiple pairs of skis, and you could just drop the binding on to whichever ski you wanted to use in minutes with just a screwdriver. Great idea, but they had durability issues and people did not like that the plate was kinda thick and lifted your boot higher off the ski than most bindings.

I remember my 05/06 Chronics had the inserts in them, never had the bindings though.
Jun 28 2017 2:13PM
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dizzydizzy
Posts: 302 - Karma: 1,023
SharkoI think he's referring to the old Line Skis bindings from around 2005/6. They were on these plastic plates with 4 holes in them, and the Line skis of the time had 4 corresponding threaded inserts in the skis. This allowed you to have 1 set of bindings for multiple pairs of skis, and you could just drop the binding on to whichever ski you wanted to use in minutes with just a screwdriver. Great idea, but they had durability issues and people did not like that the plate was kinda thick and lifted your boot higher off the ski than most bindings.

I remember my 05/06 Chronics had the inserts in them, never had the bindings though.


ahh yup i remember those for sure, got it now. ambitious, yes very very ambitious. line also made a ski boot way back in the day if i recall correctly...
Jun 28 2017 2:44PM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 9267 - Karma: 60,728
SharkoI think he's referring to the old Line Skis bindings from around 2005/6. They were on these plastic plates with 4 holes in them, and the Line skis of the time had 4 corresponding threaded inserts in the skis. This allowed you to have 1 set of bindings for multiple pairs of skis, and you could just drop the binding on to whichever ski you wanted to use in minutes with just a screwdriver. Great idea, but they had durability issues and people did not like that the plate was kinda thick and lifted your boot higher off the ski than most bindings.

I remember my 05/06 Chronics had the inserts in them, never had the bindings though.


dizzydizzyahh yup i remember those for sure, got it now. ambitious, yes very very ambitious. line also made a ski boot way back in the day if i recall correctly...


yep i was talking about the pivogy bindings. if it had become a (robust) reality, the 4 hole pattern that you could switch around between skis would have been amazing. i think they bit off more than they could chew tho, esp since the binding mechanism itself was trying to push the envelope too. they ended up being heavy and not durable...i saw a few pairs explode on medium jumps. bindings arent something you just jump into haha

and yes they had a skiboard* boot at some point haha, around 99 or 2000. i think it was some sort of raichle thing (like full tilts!)
Jun 28 2017 2:54PM
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hemlockjibber8
Posts: 5975 - Karma: 3,530
*Line Reactor Binding
*Line Transfer boot was meant for skiing as well. Based off the old Raichle AT/snowboard hardboot
Jun 28 2017 3:04PM
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kstanz
Posts: 3058 - Karma: 477
maatttttt! Buddy!

Cool thread
Jun 28 2017 11:38PM
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MLB
Posts: 4462 - Karma: 298
The line reactor binding is what marker's royal binding line is based off of. The basic design founded what the jester, duke, etc would become. It is also what the Salomon guardians and Tyrolia Adrenalines are also based off of.

When K2 bought Line, Marker got all the prototypes and designs. They just improved upon them. Same with the Line Transfer boot. It would be the start of Full Tilt. You can also look to Line and the Prophet 130s as one of the first super fat skis on the market.

Line and J Lev revolutionized modern skiing as we know it....and not too many people know about it.
Jun 29 2017 1:14AM
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Mattgeraghty3
Posts: 122 - Karma: 374
kstanzmaatttttt! Buddy!

Cool thread


Thanks Kerry! Hope things are going well at Windells!
Jun 29 2017 6:43AM
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Mattgeraghty3
Posts: 122 - Karma: 374
MLBLine and J Lev revolutionized modern skiing as we know it....and not too many people know about it.


Do you think he can do it again at 4Frnt or do you think he will even try to?

Poll is split at exactly 50/50 at the moment so obviously a lot of people don't have a huge amount of faith in JLev
Jun 29 2017 6:45AM
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AGOF
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 3,602
Mattgeraghty3Poll is split at exactly 50/50 at the moment so obviously a lot of people don't have a huge amount of faith in JLev


To me it seems like he is getting himself into the same situation he did with line. Expanding the brand like this makes it harder and harder for a single owner to support financially, and if a bad year strikes he could be forced into selling another company he started from scratch.

I also don't see/know what jlev does, but it looks like he might be biting off more than he can chew again.
Jun 29 2017 7:22AM
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Knewnews
Posts: 2093 - Karma: 477
if i was going to trust someone to do this proper it would be JLEV, look at his track record, more then solid in all regards. the man is a fucking ski ninja for gods sake.
Jun 29 2017 2:27PM
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Sharko
Posts: 2274 - Karma: 4,101
I think his stated mission is very interesting. He says that he wants to steer 4FRNT in a different direction to allow it to remain independent.
He doesn't want it going the same direction as Line or Armada. He certainly has experience growing a business and then selling it off to a bigger parent company, so he probably knows how to avoid that as well.
Best of luck JLev, I believe in your mission and your ability.





...Don't forget to bring back the YLE with the 1st gen graphic of the zombie Indian chief.
Jun 29 2017 3:37PM
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a_burger
Posts: 5234 - Karma: 20,700
MLBThe line reactor binding is what marker's royal binding line is based off of. The basic design founded what the jester, duke, etc would become. It is also what the Salomon guardians and Tyrolia Adrenalines are also based off of.

When K2 bought Line, Marker got all the prototypes and designs. They just improved upon them. Same with the Line Transfer boot. It would be the start of Full Tilt. You can also look to Line and the Prophet 130s as one of the first super fat skis on the market.

Line and J Lev revolutionized modern skiing as we know it....and not too many people know about it.


the royal family only uses the LINE toe piece, the heel piece also had sideways release (similar to a KNEE binding) which is what made them so revolutionary. Had they been higher quality thye had the potential to eliminate ACL injuries
Jun 29 2017 4:33PM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 9267 - Karma: 60,728
hemlockjibber8*Line Reactor Binding
*Line Transfer boot was meant for skiing as well. Based off the old Raichle AT/snowboard hardboot

yeah sorry reactor* binding. where did i get Pivogy? was that some related term they included?

re: the boot yeah it was called the transfer boot and i was just joking that it was marketed as a "skiboard boot," i know it was fine for use on skis
MLBThe line reactor binding is what marker's royal binding line is based off of. The basic design founded what the jester, duke, etc would become. It is also what the Salomon guardians and Tyrolia Adrenalines are also based off of.

When K2 bought Line, Marker got all the prototypes and designs. They just improved upon them. Same with the Line Transfer boot. It would be the start of Full Tilt. You can also look to Line and the Prophet 130s as one of the first super fat skis on the market.

Line and J Lev revolutionized modern skiing as we know it....and not too many people know about it.


Wow i did not know that at all. thanks
Jun 29 2017 4:39PM
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hot.pocket
Posts: 4225 - Karma: 10,622
Blister Podcast did an episode with both Matt and JLev for anyone interested in hearing it straight from the source.
Jun 29 2017 6:01PM
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Trefin
Posts: 113 - Karma: 257
SharkoI think his stated mission is very interesting. He says that he wants to steer 4FRNT in a different direction to allow it to remain independent.
He doesn't want it going the same direction as Line or Armada. He certainly has experience growing a business and then selling it off to a bigger parent company, so he probably knows how to avoid that as well.


The blister podcast had both of them on recently. If you are bored it's a good 40 min listen. Summary is that j lev is just helping out with marketing, business advice and such. Sounds like everything is going to stay the same.

Towards the end j lev shares his vision of how they want to keep all the core brands working together and stay in their specific niches so the industry doesn't get consolidated again. He wants all the great small brands like moment, on3p, icelantic, etc to keep sharing knowledge and working together to keep putting out quality products in their markets and to keep coexisting. He really wants skiers to have that variety available so we don't go back to the ages of only a few brands who won't push ski tech forward in new and creative ways. He said running a ski company is hard and he wants to make sure the smaller companies can stay afloat and avoid the financial mistakes he made in the past like giving up equity in his business so he could stay afloat when he owned line.

Super interesting if you want to hear the business aspect in detail of running a niche ski business.

http://blistergearreview.com/featured/ep-46-4frnt-skis-matt-sterbenz-jason-levinthal
Jun 29 2017 6:01PM
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dan4060
Posts: 1458 - Karma: 847
mr-mcsteezeThis. 4frnt makes great skis but there marketing recently has fallen pretty hard compared to companies like faction, j skis, armada. Hopefully they can pick up some new athletes and really change up the scene


Hoji is one of the best skiers ever to step on the planet. So is Kye Peterson. Wiley Miller rips too. They might not have a big team, but those guys are incredible skiers. They don't need new skiers, if people are not paying attention to those guys they really should be. Kye was incredible in All.I.Can, that performance was as good as anything I've seen out of Sean Petit. Not too many guys are doing off-axis 7's in the middle of big mountain lines, and his line at the end is just nuts. Hoji has put together some of the best film segments of all time.

The EHP 186 is my all-time favorite ski.
Jun 29 2017 6:15PM
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MLB
Posts: 4462 - Karma: 298
Mattgeraghty3Do you think he can do it again at 4Frnt or do you think he will even try to?

Poll is split at exactly 50/50 at the moment so obviously a lot of people don't have a huge amount of faith in JLev


I think if anybody can make it work, it's J Lev. Honestly thise two companies are the only guys who truely give a shit about park skiing these days that haven't been gobbled up by the big guys.

If they can keep it to making skis that people like, and can stay out of other hard goods and outerwear then it's gonna be successful.
Jun 29 2017 10:00PM
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hi_vis360
Posts: 5004 - Karma: 50,667
dan4060Hoji is one of the best skiers ever to step on the planet. So is Kye Peterson. Wiley Miller rips too. They might not have a big team, but those guys are incredible skiers. They don't need new skiers, if people are not paying attention to those guys they really should be. Kye was incredible in All.I.Can, that performance was as good as anything I've seen out of Sean Petit. Not too many guys are doing off-axis 7's in the middle of big mountain lines, and his line at the end is just nuts. Hoji has put together some of the best film segments of all time.

The EHP 186 is my all-time favorite ski.


https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/871079/In-Search
Jun 30 2017 1:45PM
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OregonDead
Posts: 6884 - Karma: 24,490
BASEDJAHhttps://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/871079/In-Search


So sick. Wish I wasn't working so I could watch it again right now. Pow pow pow ka pow pow pow. Hell Yeah!!
Jun 30 2017 2:50PM
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freeballer
Posts: 726 - Karma: 960
Trefin. He said running a ski company is hard and he wants to make sure the smaller companies can stay afloat and avoid the financial mistakes he made in the past like giving up equity in his business so he could stay afloat when he owned line.

I'm confused on your point about equity. He just took all of Sterbenz's equity away by purchasing the company.
Jun 30 2017 3:04PM
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K-Dot.
Posts: 3738 - Karma: 7,678
dan4060Hoji is one of the best skiers ever to step on the planet. So is Kye Peterson. Wiley Miller rips too. They might not have a big team, but those guys are incredible skiers. They don't need new skiers, if people are not paying attention to those guys they really should be. Kye was incredible in All.I.Can, that performance was as good as anything I've seen out of Sean Petit. Not too many guys are doing off-axis 7's in the middle of big mountain lines, and his line at the end is just nuts. Hoji has put together some of the best film segments of all time.

The EHP 186 is my all-time favorite ski.


Let's not forget Thayne Rich either. Dude is so underrated
Jun 30 2017 9:37PM
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hemlockjibber8
Posts: 5975 - Karma: 3,530
SofaKingSickyeah sorry reactor* binding. where did i get Pivogy? was that some related term they included?

re: the boot yeah it was called the transfer boot and i was just joking that it was marketed as a "skiboard boot," i know it was fine for use on skis


Wow i did not know that at all. thanks


Pivogy was the technology for the heel and toe rotating together. nice memory.
Jun 30 2017 10:35PM
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Trefin
Posts: 113 - Karma: 257
freeballerI'm confused on your point about equity. He just took all of Sterbenz's equity away by purchasing the company.


It was in the context of equity being in the hands of outside investors or PE groups that don't care about the product quality or unique market they are in. Sorry I was tired as shit when I wrote that summary. Tried to summarize well but I'm sure I missed some context. It was a 45 min conversation for the podcast.

But you are right j lev can do whatever he wants since it's his now, we can only take him for his words, I have no idea what he will do but I believe he was honest.
Jul 1 2017 11:15AM
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Mattgeraghty3
Posts: 122 - Karma: 374
dan4060Hoji is one of the best skiers ever to step on the planet. So is Kye Peterson. Wiley Miller rips too. They might not have a big team, but those guys are incredible skiers. They don't need new skiers, if people are not paying attention to those guys they really should be. Kye was incredible in All.I.Can, that performance was as good as anything I've seen out of Sean Petit. Not too many guys are doing off-axis 7's in the middle of big mountain lines, and his line at the end is just nuts. Hoji has put together some of the best film segments of all time.

The EHP 186 is my all-time favorite ski.


Don't get me wrong Hoji is one of my favourite skiers of all time and Kye is incredible too vut All.I.Can. came out 6 years ago an its been a similar time frame since Hoji put out a really serious movie part. These guys have definitely given 4Frnt the reputation they have today but I think it would be great to see some new talent coming through for them and generating some hype
Jul 3 2017 3:03AM
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Sit
Posts: 177 - Karma: 293
Mattgeraghty3Don't get me wrong Hoji is one of my favourite skiers of all time and Kye is incredible too vut All.I.Can. came out 6 years ago an its been a similar time frame since Hoji put out a really serious movie part. These guys have definitely given 4Frnt the reputation they have today but I think it would be great to see some new talent coming through for them and generating some hype


Sorry there Gero but you're a bit off base there, Hoji dropped an absolute hammer last year (pity ruin and rose sucked balls but his athlete edit is all kinds of fucked up) and has been regularly pumping out some crazy top notch lines for the past 6 years (and obviously well before). Check dat shit out. Sure he isn't capping unnatural forward 14's, he's just straight lining stuff in places grown men throw up just thinking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndv9yo26ZAw

Kye did drop off the radar a lil and just got sidelined by spreading himself over too many films, but his mini movie (In Search, see above) from 2 years ago is bloody top notch. Mostly man-powered as well if I remember rightly. By the looks of his insta his 2 year project (Numinous - I'll even PM you the flick when it drops if it's online) is shaping up to be an all time solo project.

Have attached a link for you as I can't embed like these cool new kids on the block, but bung a zoot and take 30 to re-educate yourself on some primo shredding you've clearly missed out on.
Jul 3 2017 5:07AM
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Mattgeraghty3
Posts: 122 - Karma: 374
SitSorry there Gero but you're a bit off base there, Hoji dropped an absolute hammer last year (pity ruin and rose sucked balls but his athlete edit is all kinds of fucked up) and has been regularly pumping out some crazy top notch lines for the past 6 years (and obviously well before). Check dat shit out. Sure he isn't capping unnatural forward 14's, he's just straight lining stuff in places grown men throw up just thinking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndv9yo26ZAw

Kye did drop off the radar a lil and just got sidelined by spreading himself over too many films, but his mini movie (In Search, see above) from 2 years ago is bloody top notch. Mostly man-powered as well if I remember rightly. By the looks of his insta his 2 year project (Numinous - I'll even PM you the flick when it drops if it's online) is shaping up to be an all time solo project.

Have attached a link for you as I can't embed like these cool new kids on the block, but bung a zoot and take 30 to re-educate yourself on some primo shredding you've clearly missed out on.


I stand corrected I knew Kye had something in the works based on his Insta but didn't know it would be coming out soon. You've just planned my evening for me Chipee hope things are well in NZ!
Jul 3 2017 6:17AM
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ahshit
Posts: 1248 - Karma: 3,022
Re-opening this to talk about the 4frnt team. I've been hearing mixed things about 4frnt losing all but Hoji and Thayne. What I've heard: Wiley and David left 4frnt by choice, Kye and Cam were given the boot.
Dec 6 2017 10:06PM
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Z-Juice
Posts: 3151 - Karma: 1,504
sickskiRe-opening this to talk about the 4frnt team. I've been hearing mixed things about 4frnt losing all but Hoji and Thayne. What I've heard: Wiley and David left 4frnt by choice, Kye and Cam were given the boot.


Hmm some "organizational changes" must have gone down. Particularly bummed to see Wiley go, I thought his name was synonymous with the brand and culture of 4frnt.
Dec 6 2017 10:39PM
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.[sanhedrin].
Posts: 1652 - Karma: 932
It would appear that financially it was not viable for 4frnt to keep a team like the one they had going. I hope each lands on their feet.
Dec 6 2017 10:40PM
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Sklar
Posts: 8864 - Karma: 31,612
I talked to JLev today about the state of 4FRNT, article coming soon
Dec 6 2017 10:53PM
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ahshit
Posts: 1248 - Karma: 3,022
SklarI talked to JLev today about the state of 4FRNT, article coming soon

Sweet
Dec 6 2017 11:01PM
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tcurle
Posts: 1254 - Karma: 5,269
SklarI talked to JLev today about the state of 4FRNT, article coming soon


Did the change in team riders come up?
Dec 6 2017 11:52PM
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willysworld
Posts: 2116 - Karma: 5,485
tcurleDid the change in team riders come up?


That will probably be the basis of the whole article...
Dec 6 2017 11:55PM
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snowfinder
Posts: 2872 - Karma: 34,167
jlev did the same thing way back in the day with line he cut everyone off but Pollard.
Dec 7 2017 7:24AM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 9267 - Karma: 60,728
snowfinderjlev did the same thing way back in the day with line he cut everyone off but Pollard.


And IIRC I'm pretty sure that was at least partly because of the binding failure...can anyone confirm or deny that?
Dec 7 2017 9:40AM
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snowfinder
Posts: 2872 - Karma: 34,167
SofaKingSickAnd IIRC I'm pretty sure that was at least partly because of the binding failure...can anyone confirm or deny that?


I think so. I think 4frnt was in the same boat they were deep in debt and they need to trim up the cost and losing the team is part of it so be it.
Dec 7 2017 10:41AM
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.[sanhedrin].
Posts: 1652 - Karma: 932
snowfinderjlev did the same thing way back in the day with line he cut everyone off but Pollard.


Maybe he did but let’s not jump to the conclusion that Jason one day wakes up and decides to cut all the pro riders on his team. Paying for the electric bill must come first. Pro riders are only a part of the overall equation. And most definitely not the most essential.
Dec 7 2017 2:55PM
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mulz
Posts: 155 - Karma: 223
snomasterHa!
Just like Coreupt eh?
How 'bout this instead:
Build dope skis. Execute a sustainable business plan that concedes perpetual growth is not realistic. Shy away from expensive risks (bindings). Support the scene within a budget.


That’s not how economics work, if a company is going to concede on perpetual growth why would they even put a single dollar into marketing let a lone pump most of their capital into it? That will never happen not just in skiing but any industry.
Dec 7 2017 3:49PM
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Lokdog
Posts: 130 - Karma: 547
I’ve heard 4frnt can be pretty stingy with their sponsored athletes, wouldn’t take that as fact tho
Dec 7 2017 3:55PM
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ahshit
Posts: 1248 - Karma: 3,022
Thinking about it, how is 4frnt going to stay how they are? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all of 4frnts skis athlete promodels? What happens now that those athletes are gone?
Dec 8 2017 12:52AM
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RousedWits
Posts: 387 - Karma: 894
From what Ive read, it seems like he bought 4frnt so a giant Tupperware type company wouldnt... But of course whats said isnt always true....
Doesn't look to me like the 4frnt ski designers/makers are going to change.
Dec 8 2017 1:28AM
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AGOF
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 3,602
sickskiThinking about it, how is 4frnt going to stay how they are? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all of 4frnts skis athlete promodels? What happens now that those athletes are gone?


They pay the athletes for the sales of their pro models, and make new skis next year. Kind of a severance package
Dec 8 2017 9:57AM
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The_Real_EWilly
Posts: 395 - Karma: 1,321
This year is the first year our local shop hasn't sold 4frnts since the company started, its kind of a bummer the direction the company is taking from some perspectives. I have a few pairs of skis from them and am bummed to hear they're discontinuing their park line up.
Dec 8 2017 10:26AM
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