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hate speech take two

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almostaskier
Posts: 13809 - Karma: 93
ok, why did the site refresh? arrrrgh!
rrranyways...

in sweden there is a pastor who is imprisoned for hate speech toward homosexuals. i don't know all the details, but he, during a sermon, voiced his opinion on homosexual behavior (read: sodomy) from a biblical standpoint. at no point in time did he visciously attack gays, perdsecute them or harass anyone in the assmbly: pure and simple voicing of ones opinion, protected by the swedish constitution as one of the fundamental rights of a citizen.
so tell me this: where do you draw the line between hate speech and opinion? how do you know the difference between freedom of expression in action and discriminatory speech towards a persons?

i read in a herald tribune a while back about this very thing: a group of neo nazis wanted to hold a rally, but the got scraed out of it by a truck load of death threats. ironicaly, the pepetrators used what they were denying the neo nazis to escape persecution: freedom of speech. a paradox, as this happens many times, be it a jew calling someone antisemetic or a black insulting someone for calling them a nigger, are we all juts hypocritacl, only allowing otheres the right to express themselves untill a ceratin point and then handing out a double standard to them when we respond in kind?

in the same article, a neo nazi (again) was on trial for anti semetic sentiments toward a group of jews. problem with this trial was, that the main juror, the one most respêcted and influencial among the bench, was a jew. but his descision is one of the repectable things ever, a
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Aujourd'hui pour être fun et bigarré, frais et bein formé, il te faut savoir à casser!
Là tu vois tu peux pas répondre: a yé, t'es complétément cassé!

Vis ton cassage et tais toi!

Its NS... retards blend in. - J.D._May

member 53318, o, yea.
Feb 6 2005 10:28AM
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almostaskier
Posts: 13809 - Karma: 93
dammit, let me finish!!!!!!!

any ways, it was the most respactable things ever, and the best example of what jury duty is: his quote is along these lines: ' the first amendement, the freedom of expression and of speech, protects all opinions, be they justified and intelligent, but also be they ignorant, misinformed and foolsh. our job as jurors is not to decide if he should have done this and if we like what he said, its to see if the first amandement applies here.'
the charges were dropped.

so where is freedom of expression going? if anyone can call on hate speech to get someone to shut up, then there is really no point in having any freedom in that domain is it? if we all can be hypocrites and use what they advocate to protest against them to insult them freely, are we batter off?

i personamy think that hate speech is justa a means of controlling people to not voice their opinions, be they controversial or tabou. all a jew needs to say when insulted is that the person was being anti semetic, leaving the collective guilt set in and milk the holocaust once more, and voila, he is off the hook forever from his humiliation...
a gay person advocates the right to expression everyother breath, but so help him/her that someone not agree with them, no, they are obviously homophobic!
i just don't understand hate speech, and its complete BS to save the expression of the 'repressed' against the rightful opinion of the rest...

i had better stuff but i forgot it, screw this refreshing of the browser... end rant
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Aujourd'hui pour être fun et bigarré, frais et bein formé, il te faut savoir à casser!
Là tu vois tu peux pas répondre: a yé, t'es complétément cassé!

Vis ton cassage et tais toi!

Its NS... retards blend in. - J.D._May

member 53318, o, yea.
Feb 6 2005 10:38AM
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almostaskier
Posts: 13809 - Karma: 93
pardon the poor spelling, i needed to type quickly and it posted without allowing me to reread...
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Aujourd'hui pour être fun et bigarré, frais et bein formé, il te faut savoir à casser!
Là tu vois tu peux pas répondre: a yé, t'es complétément cassé!

Vis ton cassage et tais toi!

Its NS... retards blend in. - J.D._May

member 53318, o, yea.
Feb 6 2005 10:41AM
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Apple
Posts: 7906 - Karma: 33
i didnt really read all of what you wrote, but from reading the first paragraph i can draw a comparative answer to your first question. In canada we have a right to the freedom of speach and a freedom of expression. The line is drawn not with what you say or think, but whith how you say it. For example me in passing conversation with someone saing 'I hate muslims, they are stinky and should leave and go home' is very very diffrent from renting a billboard acros from a mosk and putting the same thing on it. The later is illegal, but only because of the way which the opinion is expressed. In a sermon in the church is much the same. its one man or woman who has a big crowd who are forced to listen. If he started to say that all jews needed to die, he would get into alot of trouble. Its the same as him voicing his opinion on homosexuals, it just should not be done in a forum such as that. Although it gets complicated because it is a church, and those are the views of the church. Its probaly uncharted ground and will be precident setting, and probaly a pretty important descision to the church.
Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery
please pardon the cacography
----------->Capital.City.Rider.
--->Phunkin.Phatt.Phreerider.

'naahhmahhnahhhahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'
'Go down to the bottom bunk and finish it yourself'
Feb 6 2005 10:47AM
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almostaskier
Posts: 13809 - Karma: 93
^thing is, they aren't forced to listen, as a pastor, he interprets a passage his way and with better knowledge of the bible than the most of the congregation, but from then on, everyone still has their right to their own opinion and the right to think he is wrong, but to be charged for a crime?
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Aujourd'hui pour être fun et bigarré, frais et bein formé, il te faut savoir à casser!
Là tu vois tu peux pas répondre: a yé, t'es complétément cassé!

Vis ton cassage et tais toi!

Its NS... retards blend in. - J.D._May

member 53318, o, yea.
Feb 6 2005 10:54AM
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Apple
Posts: 7906 - Karma: 33
well they are kinda pressured to stay there... Just the position of the sermon in the service pressures them. if you leave befor its over you dont get comunion and everyone will think that your ungodly for leaving. When was the last time you went to church? whens the last time you remember someone getting up and leaving half way through? It doesnt happen. The beliefs of christians involve going to church on sunday plain and simple. The pastor had them there and no one was going to leave. I bet that if he started to mastubrate on the altar no on would have left. And besides, a church is not a place to express a hateful opinion. personaly i belive that spreading hate through an institution such as the church should be illegal.
Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery
please pardon the cacography
----------->Capital.City.Rider.
--->Phunkin.Phatt.Phreerider.

'naahhmahhnahhhahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'
'Go down to the bottom bunk and finish it yourself'
Feb 6 2005 10:58AM
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almostaskier
Posts: 13809 - Karma: 93
^that si the whoe point, it wasn't hateful at all, it was the position of the bible as intereperetd by him about homosexual behavior... i for one went to church this morning, and no, no one left, because the sermon was interesting and captivating, but here, at our church, if someone said something they didn't like during a sermon, the person would stay all the way through, not because they are forced to, but because they want to hear the person all the way through and see where they are coming from... but you are right, no one really ever eaves in the middle of the sremon, but not for the reasons you mentioned, but we are straying, go back and read the rest please....
and i repeat: it wasn't hateful speech.
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Aujourd'hui pour être fun et bigarré, frais et bein formé, il te faut savoir à casser!
Là tu vois tu peux pas répondre: a yé, t'es complétément cassé!

Vis ton cassage et tais toi!

Its NS... retards blend in. - J.D._May

member 53318, o, yea.
Feb 6 2005 11:05AM
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Apple
Posts: 7906 - Karma: 33
yes, i probaly should have read more, but the bible doenst take a very friendly stance on homosexuals, and since he was arrested for what he said, it couldnt have been all sunshine and lolipops. To be illegal, at least in canada, it only have to be offencive to one groupe of people, alot of other people could not find it offencive at all. If a small minority does and the opinion is expressed in a certian way, then it becomes illegal.
Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery
please pardon the cacography
----------->Capital.City.Rider.
--->Phunkin.Phatt.Phreerider.

'naahhmahhnahhhahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'
'Go down to the bottom bunk and finish it yourself'
Feb 6 2005 11:14AM
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almostaskier
Posts: 13809 - Karma: 93
yea, sunshine and lollipops, i think, if he is any christian pastor at all and not delusional (sp?) he was saying that some homosexual behavior is a sin (sodomy and sleeping with the same sex), but that you should accept homosexuals and not discriminate against them, lest you be called homophobic, very dangerous man indeed if that was the case...
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Aujourd'hui pour être fun et bigarré, frais et bein formé, il te faut savoir à casser!
Là tu vois tu peux pas répondre: a yé, t'es complétément cassé!

Vis ton cassage et tais toi!

Its NS... retards blend in. - J.D._May

member 53318, o, yea.
Feb 6 2005 11:20AM
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Apple
Posts: 7906 - Karma: 33
if thats what he said than its a tough call... The case would bring into view the belifes of the church its self, not just the pastor. I wonder what would happen if the courts found the church doctrine to be illegal because it discriminates against homosexuals. I dont belive that the pastor would be convicted of a hate crime if thats close to what he said, but it will be intresting to see the courts stance on the churches doctrine, wheater of not its found to be constitutional.
Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery
please pardon the cacography
----------->Capital.City.Rider.
--->Phunkin.Phatt.Phreerider.

'naahhmahhnahhhahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'
'Go down to the bottom bunk and finish it yourself'
Feb 6 2005 11:25AM
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almostaskier
Posts: 13809 - Karma: 93
true, in a certain light, one could be see the Bible as a homphobic text, but if you look closely, its anti humanity as well: all the sins that we do are condemned by the bible, be it lying, cussing, adultery or sodomy, its just somethings that touch the tabou, and then its all hands on deck to label it hateful... there si liberty of religion, and of creed in sweden as in america, its just that if a gay person were to advocate the right to express his discontent towards the church in no uncertain terms, most everyone would accept it as a bash against the church, because christianity is the devil( ha!), or if a jew were to attack a school for being anti semetic for a hazing or whatever and because of the holocaust everyone would expect the jewish person to be repaid for his abusing,or a black person or a woman not getting a job and blaming it on so and so, or if they are 'insulted' by someone; the question is where can you tell if its hate speech, and non racial attack on a person, or freedom of expression?
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Aujourd'hui pour être fun et bigarré, frais et bein formé, il te faut savoir à casser!
Là tu vois tu peux pas répondre: a yé, t'es complétément cassé!

Vis ton cassage et tais toi!

Its NS... retards blend in. - J.D._May

member 53318, o, yea.
Feb 6 2005 11:33AM
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Apple
Posts: 7906 - Karma: 33
to me, telling someone who belives in heaven and hell that because of their lifestyle and who they are they are going to hell no matter what happens is hatefull and discrimination. Yes it is anyi humanity but it also gives humanity as a whole a way to save their souls and become good christians so they can enjoy the bliss of gods love and heaven. But if your gay, your going to hell, no matter how good of a christian you are. Its unavoidable. Its a double standard and it makes homoseuals out to be something not a part of humanity which is wrong. We all know that just because someone is gay, wheather you like it or not, are still people. The government says so, its freedom of expression.

If a member of the jewish faith were to make anti semetic claims against an educational institution, that institution would not be conviceted of hate crimes if there were none. Just because someone says its happening doesnt mean it is and I have enough faith in the canadian legal system to belive that they would discover false claims and quickly dissergard the person who cried wolf. Thats what courts are for.
Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery
please pardon the cacography
----------->Capital.City.Rider.
--->Phunkin.Phatt.Phreerider.

'naahhmahhnahhhahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'
'Go down to the bottom bunk and finish it yourself'
Feb 6 2005 11:43AM
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almostaskier
Posts: 13809 - Karma: 93
where are you pulling that info out from? some orifice in your body, i hope not... it doesn't say that if you are gay you cannot be saved, because the whole basis of the good news is that no matter what the sin, you can be forgiven if you believe: that goes for pedophiles, gays and murderers.
john 3:16: for God do loved the world that he gave his onmy begotten son, so that WHOSOEVER believes in him will not perish but recieve eternal life.
so i don't know what you think the christians believe about gays, but we certainly accept anyone who repebnts from their evil ways, and they are no more evil for being gay then me or you, as all humanity is inherently sinful and has fallen short of the glory of God... goodnight now...
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Aujourd'hui pour être fun et bigarré, frais et bein formé, il te faut savoir à casser!
Là tu vois tu peux pas répondre: a yé, t'es complétément cassé!

Vis ton cassage et tais toi!

Its NS... retards blend in. - J.D._May

member 53318, o, yea.
Feb 6 2005 2:09PM
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Apple
Posts: 7906 - Karma: 33
thats exactly what i said. If they they dont repent and change who their are and their life styles they wont be saved. thank you for proving my point. Have a good night.

p.s. i love the way that its just you and me having this discussion. no stupid 'you are gay' posts or anything. i love it.
Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery
please pardon the cacography
----------->Capital.City.Rider.
--->Phunkin.Phatt.Phreerider.

'naahhmahhnahhhahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'
'Go down to the bottom bunk and finish it yourself'
Feb 6 2005 2:56PM
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almostaskier
Posts: 13809 - Karma: 93
^actually, i can stay on just a bit...
yea, i didn't think you had said anything about repenting up there, just that he had said that gays are going to hell with nothing to do to change that, which i or no one else said that...

and yes, quite refreshing indeed to not have anyone calling the thread gay, im quite enjoying the discussion, as i hope you are too, i guess i scared most of them off with the exceedingly long first and second posts...
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Aujourd'hui pour être fun et bigarré, frais et bein formé, il te faut savoir à casser!
Là tu vois tu peux pas répondre: a yé, t'es complétément cassé!

Vis ton cassage et tais toi!

Its NS... retards blend in. - J.D._May

member 53318, o, yea.
Feb 6 2005 3:08PM
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