Vail buys Stowe

I wonder how that will affect Smugglers' Notch

MalcolmI wonder how that will affect Smugglers' Notch

The dirt is that vail is trying to buy them, but smuggs is playing the "we don't want to sell card". Which means they're committed to running the resort or they're waiting for a better offer.

Vuck Fail

antitrust lawsuit when

I knew it was just a matter of time before they added a place on the east coast. I work at Wilmot which was bought by vail. Its only been good things since that happened.

Everyone is going to say fuck Vail and I don't know how their purchases of other small resorts has been positive of negative. But here in Minnesota, their purchase of Afton Alps a few years ago has been positive overall.

personally i think this is good news for stowe, and good news for vermonters. for myself and a lot of my friends this is now a reason to consider getting an epic pass and be able to justify more trips out west.

ThisAngelicRagepersonally i think this is good news for stowe, and good news for vermonters. for myself and a lot of my friends this is now a reason to consider getting an epic pass and be able to justify more trips out west.

This is exactly what vail wants you to do... I'm not convinced its "good".

eheathThis is exactly what vail wants you to do... I'm not convinced its "good".

intriguing reply eheath, nice to see a familiar username still active.

definitely not rooting for a monopoly of the industry by any means, i agree it may not be 'good' in that way. do you think it could be beneficial for consumers?

ThisAngelicRagepersonally i think this is good news for stowe, and good news for vermonters. for myself and a lot of my friends this is now a reason to consider getting an epic pass and be able to justify more trips out west.

holy throwback

ThisAngelicRageintriguing reply eheath, nice to see a familiar username still active.

definitely not rooting for a monopoly of the industry by any means, i agree it may not be 'good' in that way. do you think it could be beneficial for consumers?

It's moreso a huge marketing scheme by vail, the more resorts they own, the more passes they sell, the more people travel to their resorts, buy lodging/food/services etc. People rave about the cheap pass, which is really the only positive thing that comes from vail buying your home resort, but everything else surrounding it is awful. I'm mostly bias about vail because I live in Park City and have witnessed hands on how much vail changes a resort when they buy it and how much the town changes as well. Sure, the town is fucking booming, which is great overall, but everything becomes more difficult and frustrating for locals when more tourists come to town.

In the end, its not the worst thing ever, but its not super great either. I'm a bit worried what will happen down the road when vail owns a majority of top visited resorts in the country, the pass could possibly be more expensive than your normal season pass was and then you have no positive reason for vail to buy your home resort.

Vail is pretty much playing Pokemon with resorts right now.

eheathSure, the town is fucking booming, which is great overall, but everything becomes more difficult and frustrating for locals when more tourists come to town.

In the end, its not the worst thing ever, but its not super great either. I'm a bit worried what will happen down the road when vail owns a majority of top visited resorts in the country, the pass could possibly be more expensive than your normal season pass was and then you have no positive reason for vail to buy your home resort.

great for local business owners; sucks for just about every other kind of local. would you chalk it up to growing pains?

TheDoughAbidesgreat for local business owners; sucks for just about every other kind of local. would you chalk it up to growing pains?

Maybe, you look at a town like Breck and you see Park City turning into something similar, which isn't what anyone wants who lives here, but it seems inevitable. IE pay for parking, pushing locals out of the town itself, town is overrun with tourists 24/7, everything is more expensive, etc

Basically if you don't like what the town turns into, move somewhere else, but that's tough for PC because there is a huge local base here, 7000 or so residents, tons of families (the high school is overflowing, they're thinking about building another) that are having a harder time finding a place to buy/rent, having to commute from as far as SLC (40 miles) to work in town, which is just unacceptable, people don't want to leave this town.

But these residents are going to get new jobs closer to where they live and theyre gonna have to just start bussing everyone that works in town from surrounding towns, it's a downward spiral.

I think in the next 5-10 years there will be much improvement, as you said growing pains, we just need more housing so that people who work here can live here, the whole town vibe will be completely eliminated if everyone moves out of town. Its a sad, but very possible outcome of PC and I will likely flee if this place gets out of control.

Interested to see where this thread goes with more people replying who know what they are talking about.

No experience with Stowe, but Ive heard rumors that it fits the Vail lifestyle without being part of Vail. Now that it is, I definitely want to see what happens.

Will this change alter the town(s) surrounding Stowe or are they too small, meaning that Burlington would be the effected area?

eheathMaybe, you look at a town like Breck and you see Park City turning into something similar, which isn't what anyone wants who lives here, but it seems inevitable. IE pay for parking, pushing locals out of the town itself, town is overrun with tourists 24/7, everything is more expensive, etc

Basically if you don't like what the town turns into, move somewhere else, but that's tough for PC because there is a huge local base here, 7000 or so residents, tons of families (the high school is overflowing, they're thinking about building another) that are having a harder time finding a place to buy/rent, having to commute from as far as SLC (40 miles) to work in town, which is just unacceptable, people don't want to leave this town..

I definitely see it as a one sided benefit after hearing more about your perspective. I think it's safe to assume that stowe won't see/feel those increases in the way places out west do; west coasters will not flocking to stowe because of new ownership. i live 5 minutes from a tiny hill (middlebury college snow bowl) and would be devastated by commercial expansion of any size in my area.

Well the price of season passes to stowe just dropped dramatically.

parkplaygroundInterested to see where this thread goes with more people replying who know what they are talking about.

No experience with Stowe, but Ive heard rumors that it fits the Vail lifestyle without being part of Vail. Now that it is, I definitely want to see what happens.

Will this change alter the town(s) surrounding Stowe or are they too small, meaning that Burlington would be the effected area?

yeah, for what it's worth (almost nothing), when i heard stowe was in Vail's sights i sorta shrugged to myself and thought eh, im sure there are good arguments for both sides but stowe being bought by a big conglomerate doesnt strike me as functionally significant as, say, vail buying Burke mtn

Its interesting to see the change from ski "mountain" or "area" to ski "resort" and how it effects who skis there. Personally I think this change really effects regular people and families who just want to ski. I don't know much about the east coast or Stowe for that matter, so it could be a different situation. But the management at my home mountain (Crystal) is in the process of changing from a very large ski area to a " destination resort". The management plans to build large hotels and lodging at the base of the mountain, removing the little chapel etc... and although these don't particularly frustrate me, the increase in ticket prices do. Many people who once were able to afford to ski here now cant and it restricts families who want to get into skiing. I realize that it is relatively affordable to ski Washington compared to Colorado and Utah, but the raise in price is still closing out the sport to a lot of people. It will be interesting to see what ends up happening to Stowe. Hope for the best

eheathIt's moreso a huge marketing scheme by vail, the more resorts they own, the more passes they sell, the more people travel to their resorts, buy lodging/food/services etc. People rave about the cheap pass, which is really the only positive thing that comes from vail buying your home resort, but everything else surrounding it is awful. I'm mostly bias about vail because I live in Park City and have witnessed hands on how much vail changes a resort when they buy it and how much the town changes as well. Sure, the town is fucking booming, which is great overall, but everything becomes more difficult and frustrating for locals when more tourists come to town.

In the end, its not the worst thing ever, but its not super great either. I'm a bit worried what will happen down the road when vail owns a majority of top visited resorts in the country, the pass could possibly be more expensive than your normal season pass was and then you have no positive reason for vail to buy your home resort.

To me, someone who doesn't ski at a resort owned by Vail, it doesn't sound that bad. Yeah it's killing the vibe, but you're also saving a large bit of money, whether you're a local or a tourist. I think everyone's feelings about this will be different. Some want to save a buck, and that's ok. But some will want the vibe over the cash.

Here is what I really think:

eheathIE pay for parking, pushing locals out of the town itself, town is overrun with tourists 24/7, everything is more expensive, etc.

While I do say paying for parking is inevitable, I realize that there is nothing close to official saying that it will be happening. But lets assume it does - what solutions exist? Park City had a parking issue on their hands before Vail came in. There are 2 options to closer align the demand for parking and the available spaces: Reduce the amount of people who need parking spaces or Increase parking spaces available. PC's Public Transit is about as good as it gets so improving that will not further decreases the demand for spots. So, how else does one closer align the supply of spots to the demand for spots. You can decrease demand by charging for parking spots. Or, you can increase supply and build a parking structure. The latter option will be a huge expense for Vail as well as an eye-sore to the area. Why should Vail eat these costs when it will not drastically impact the amount of people who come to ski? It is perfectly reasonable for them to begin charging for parking in a parking structure and the same case would have applied to PowderCorp.

I mentioned that locals are being pushed out of the town and that everything is more expensive but I am ignoring the fact that Vail has pledged to build employee housing available at below-market rates. Further, I have not seen proof or numbers supporting those statements. They were both issues before Vail came to Park City but there is no proof that Vail is increasing the rate at which these economical issues grow.

eheathPeople rave about the cheap pass, which is really the only positive thing that comes from vail buying your home resort, but everything else surrounding it is awful.

I also fail to mention that Vail upgraded the slow lifts at Park City as well as added a Gondola that connects two large resorts. It is awful having the option to ski from Park City to The Canyons or Vice Versa. I wish it was never given to us.

eheathI'm mostly bias about vail because I live in Park City and have witnessed hands on how much vail changes a resort when they buy it and how much the town changes as well

Ask me how the town of Park City has changed. I won't be able to point to anything other than crowds or perhaps a trademark dispute that Vail ended up conceding.

eheath7000 or so residents, tons of families (the high school is overflowing, they're thinking about building another)

"Thinking about building another" Is a pretty loose statement-which is why I made it. there isn't much momentum behind the idea but its tough to say that nobody is thinking about it. Here is the most recent article regarding the capacity of PCHS: http://www.parkrecord.com/news/education/park-city-school-district-ponders-2017-2018-grade-realignment/

eheath...are having a harder time finding a place to buy/rent, having to commute from as far as SLC (40 miles) to work in town, which is just unacceptable,

I realize that residents of major metropolitan areas are having the same troubles and are often commuting more than my claim of 40 miles but I am choosing to ignore it in the context of this argument.

I am all for capitalism and advancement, unless my broke ass is the one that suffers.

skiznutsTo me, someone who doesn't ski at a resort owned by Vail, it doesn't sound that bad. Yeah it's killing the vibe, but you're also saving a large bit of money, whether you're a local or a tourist. I think everyone's feelings about this will be different. Some want to save a buck, and that's ok. But some will want the vibe over the cash.

i suppose that is exactly why i fell stowe was perfectly suited for vail's vast holdings.... i have never gotten the real vermont vibe at stowe that you get elsewhere, it has always had more of a polished touristy feel. Even smuggs has completely different vibe just on the otherside of the mountain. so long as places like smuggs, bolton, mad river etc continue to get the support of the locals and we maintain the balance of 'resorts' vs. 'mountains' the ski industry in vermont will thrive. oh.... and some snowfall would help too.

EHeath_NSHere is what I really think:



While I do say paying for parking is inevitable, I realize that there is nothing close to official saying that it will be happening. But lets assume it does - what solutions exist? Park City had a parking issue on their hands before Vail came in. There are 2 options to closer align the demand for parking and the available spaces: Reduce the amount of people who need parking spaces or Increase parking spaces available. PC's Public Transit is about as good as it gets so improving that will not further decreases the demand for spots. So, how else does one closer align the supply of spots to the demand for spots. You can decrease demand by charging for parking spots. Or, you can increase supply and build a parking structure. The latter option will be a huge expense for Vail as well as an eye-sore to the area. Why should Vail eat these costs when it will not drastically impact the amount of people who come to ski? It is perfectly reasonable for them to begin charging for parking in a parking structure and the same case would have applied to PowderCorp.

I mentioned that locals are being pushed out of the town and that everything is more expensive but I am ignoring the fact that Vail has pledged to build employee housing available at below-market rates. Further, I have not seen proof or numbers supporting those statements. They were both issues before Vail came to Park City but there is no proof that Vail is increasing the rate at which these economical issues grow.



I also fail to mention that Vail upgraded the slow lifts at Park City as well as added a Gondola that connects two large resorts. It is awful having the option to ski from Park City to The Canyons or Vice Versa. I wish it was never given to us.



Ask me how the town of Park City has changed. I won't be able to point to anything other than crowds or perhaps a trademark dispute that Vail ended up conceding.



"Thinking about building another" Is a pretty loose statement-which is why I made it. there isn't much momentum behind the idea but its tough to say that nobody is thinking about it. Here is the most recent article regarding the capacity of PCHS: http://www.parkrecord.com/news/education/park-city-school-district-ponders-2017-2018-grade-realignment/




I realize that residents of major metropolitan areas are having the same troubles and are often commuting more than my claim of 40 miles but I am choosing to ignore it in the context of this argument.

I am all for capitalism and advancement, unless my broke ass is the one that suffers.

I dunno who you are, but say hi to george for me.

As to counter to a few points here:

1. I used to live across the street from PCMR for the past 3 seasons, I walked up to the resort every time I skied, there has been a very noticeable difference between pre-vail and post-vail and anyone who skis at PC can tell you it has gotten much, much worse since vail took over. The lots at PC used to not get full outside of holidays and maybe a powder day on a weekend. Driving up to PC on a wednesday you could find a parking spot at any time, now you show up at 10am and the lot is full, on a cloudy average ski day in the middle of the week. That is a huge change. Now this could just be a product of the resort growing in general, but it happens right when Vail took over. There is no denying that Vail brings in more people, period.

The solution? More satellite lots with more direct bus routes from said parking lots and $5-$10 parking at the base of the resort to encourage the use of these remote parking lots. Its going to happen, we should just accept it.

2. Locals being pushed out of town was a problem before Vail, but its worse now. I personally know multiple people getting kicked out of their rentals, in the last year, after their lease so the owner could rent it out nightly or sell the unit/house. There is a ton of money in either selling (property has been going up regardless of vail, but its accelerating due to vail) and renting nightly is obviously much more lucrative than long term. I'm not surprised by it, just extremely frustrated by it.

PC has been talking affordable housing for awhile and now it's even more of an issue with Vail in town. Will vail build housing? Sure for like what 100 people that they employ? Good start, but it's not just 'low income' 'resort employees' that need housing. People can make good money in park city being a bartender or a server, but it's not enough to buy a house and the money for rentals isnt the problem, its the availability. We don't need "cheap rentals" PC just needs rentals in general. This is a wash whether Vail has effected this or not, but nothing has happened...yet.

3. Nobody who lives in park city (or salt lake city for that matter) gives a fuck if they built a gondola, updated motherload to a quad or made king kong a 6 pack.

The gondola is worthless, you can ski to the bottom of PC, take the bus to the Canyons side, ride up the lifts there and it takes less time than the monstrosity that is the Quicksilver gondola + 3 other lifts to reach anything remotely skiable. Sure its fun to ride the circuit, but it's a gaper trap, it's made to suck gapers across the mountain, period.

Motherload update is cool, but who fucking cares. King kong upgrade is nice too, but there is still a line every day at that lift cause it a huge funnel, 6 pack didn't make a lick of difference. When they upgrade pioneer and town we'll be talking about a true, functional update.

4. The town is probably the only gleam of light I see from Vail coming to town. Businesses are doing really well, lots of money, etc its all good. Sure there are tons of fucking people around no matter what, tiny roads made for 1000 people with 10k (50k during sundance, but that's another can of worms) get clogged, whatever. I'm not going to be one of those park city residents that bitches about traffic, it's really not that bad. As long as it never gets as bad as it is during sundance, which is unlikely because sundance is a phenomenon, it's a huge event that's amazing for our town.

5. I only brought up the high school to demonstrate the amount of families in this town, its not just a bunch of ski bums and resort workers, tons of families call PC home, the city and vail should want to support this, I'm sure they do.

6. The commuting thing ties into housing, its not like people wont commute, but half the reason people move to utah to work for a resort is to live in the town, not in some shit bag appartment complex in kimball junction. This ties into my frustrations of housing switching from long term to short term rental.

I'm enjoying this conversation, whoever you are ;)

eheath beer bar to bistro is only 30.9 miles i checked google maps

eheathMaybe, you look at a town like Breck and you see Park City turning into something similar, which isn't what anyone wants who lives here, but it seems inevitable. IE pay for parking, pushing locals out of the town itself, town is overrun with tourists 24/7, everything is more expensive, etc

Basically if you don't like what the town turns into, move somewhere else, but that's tough for PC because there is a huge local base here, 7000 or so residents, tons of families (the high school is overflowing, they're thinking about building another) that are having a harder time finding a place to buy/rent, having to commute from as far as SLC (40 miles) to work in town, which is just unacceptable, people don't want to leave this town.

But these residents are going to get new jobs closer to where they live and theyre gonna have to just start bussing everyone that works in town from surrounding towns, it's a downward spiral.

I think in the next 5-10 years there will be much improvement, as you said growing pains, we just need more housing so that people who work here can live here, the whole town vibe will be completely eliminated if everyone moves out of town. Its a sad, but very possible outcome of PC and I will likely flee if this place gets out of control.

I don't disagree with you. But the west has been increasing its share of the nations pop. every year since 1900, this is way bigger than Vail. I don't know what Utah is looking like, but Colorado is supposed to double in the next 20 years.

Housing/parking in ski towns is one thing, but I think the biggest issue will be the lack of water! Tons of rivers out here are already over-appropriated. 5% of Colorado's snowpack = Las Vegas's entire yearly water supply! What the hell are we gonna do in dry years?!?! This is probably a conversation for another thread, though...

eheathI dunno who you are, but say hi to george for me.

As to counter to a few points here:

1. I used to live across the street from PCMR for the past 3 seasons, I walked up to the resort every time I skied, there has been a very noticeable difference between pre-vail and post-vail and anyone who skis at PC can tell you it has gotten much, much worse since vail took over. The lots at PC used to not get full outside of holidays and maybe a powder day on a weekend. Driving up to PC on a wednesday you could find a parking spot at any time, now you show up at 10am and the lot is full, on a cloudy average ski day in the middle of the week. That is a huge change. Now this could just be a product of the resort growing in general, but it happens right when Vail took over. There is no denying that Vail brings in more people, period.

The solution? More satellite lots with more direct bus routes from said parking lots and $5-$10 parking at the base of the resort to encourage the use of these remote parking lots. Its going to happen, we should just accept it.

I think a major issue is there is no ski bus to park city from SLC. Okay, yeah there's like two buses that leave before 8 am and two back down at like 5 pm. Not really mass transit. But the cottonwoods' bus system has really been shining this year. On saturdays this season, brighton's parking lot has filled up pretty consistently. I've been turned around and the entrance to the loop multiple times. But parking at either park and ride at the bottom of the canyon and taking the bus up takes 5-10 minutes longer than normal and there's always spots at one of the two lots. Normally, the lift lines aren't even bad once you're up because the lot acts as a bottleneck. Plus it saves gas and is super nice for going up alone; I don't feel like a piece of shit dumping so much smog into the valley.

They need to similarly flesh out the bus service up to PC. There is so much daily traffic that could be cut down by a legitimate PC-SLC UTA route. Maybe only run it during the winter. Or reduce the number of trips in summertime. I don't know. But with all the parking issues in PC lately and all the talk about the inversions, i'm surprised this hasn't been discussed more.

eheathI dunno who you are, but say hi to george for me.

As to counter to a few points here:

1. I used to live across the street from PCMR for the past 3 seasons, I walked up to the resort every time I skied, there has been a very noticeable difference between pre-vail and post-vail and anyone who skis at PC can tell you it has gotten much, much worse since vail took over. The lots at PC used to not get full outside of holidays and maybe a powder day on a weekend. Driving up to PC on a wednesday you could find a parking spot at any time, now you show up at 10am and the lot is full, on a cloudy average ski day in the middle of the week. That is a huge change. Now this could just be a product of the resort growing in general, but it happens right when Vail took over. There is no denying that Vail brings in more people, period.

The solution? More satellite lots with more direct bus routes from said parking lots and $5-$10 parking at the base of the resort to encourage the use of these remote parking lots. Its going to happen, we should just accept it.

2. Locals being pushed out of town was a problem before Vail, but its worse now. I personally know multiple people getting kicked out of their rentals, in the last year, after their lease so the owner could rent it out nightly or sell the unit/house. There is a ton of money in either selling (property has been going up regardless of vail, but its accelerating due to vail) and renting nightly is obviously much more lucrative than long term. I'm not surprised by it, just extremely frustrated by it.

PC has been talking affordable housing for awhile and now it's even more of an issue with Vail in town. Will vail build housing? Sure for like what 100 people that they employ? Good start, but it's not just 'low income' 'resort employees' that need housing. People can make good money in park city being a bartender or a server, but it's not enough to buy a house and the money for rentals isnt the problem, its the availability. We don't need "cheap rentals" PC just needs rentals in general. This is a wash whether Vail has effected this or not, but nothing has happened...yet.

3. Nobody who lives in park city (or salt lake city for that matter) gives a fuck if they built a gondola, updated motherload to a quad or made king kong a 6 pack.

The gondola is worthless, you can ski to the bottom of PC, take the bus to the Canyons side, ride up the lifts there and it takes less time than the monstrosity that is the Quicksilver gondola + 3 other lifts to reach anything remotely skiable. Sure its fun to ride the circuit, but it's a gaper trap, it's made to suck gapers across the mountain, period.

Motherload update is cool, but who fucking cares. King kong upgrade is nice too, but there is still a line every day at that lift cause it a huge funnel, 6 pack didn't make a lick of difference. When they upgrade pioneer and town we'll be talking about a true, functional update.

4. The town is probably the only gleam of light I see from Vail coming to town. Businesses are doing really well, lots of money, etc its all good. Sure there are tons of fucking people around no matter what, tiny roads made for 1000 people with 10k (50k during sundance, but that's another can of worms) get clogged, whatever. I'm not going to be one of those park city residents that bitches about traffic, it's really not that bad. As long as it never gets as bad as it is during sundance, which is unlikely because sundance is a phenomenon, it's a huge event that's amazing for our town.

5. I only brought up the high school to demonstrate the amount of families in this town, its not just a bunch of ski bums and resort workers, tons of families call PC home, the city and vail should want to support this, I'm sure they do.

6. The commuting thing ties into housing, its not like people wont commute, but half the reason people move to utah to work for a resort is to live in the town, not in some shit bag appartment complex in kimball junction. This ties into my frustrations of housing switching from long term to short term rental.

I'm enjoying this conversation, whoever you are ;)

I think the one thing you are also ignoring is the economy. Money was pretty whack from about 2007 till about 2 years ago. I used to be able to find deals galore at the hill (hotels, food). So certainly the Epic Pass has made a difference, but it has also renewed some interest in actual skiing. I'd look at the Epic Pass as an opportunity in some areas - for instance, Copper here is pretty mellow most of the time. I have to imagine Alta and Snowbird are a lot more mellow than PC/Canyons. Vail is snagging up most of the swank ski destinations, but now they are like 25% more swank and a lot more crowded.

There is a bit of a boom and bust in skiing. Right now it is clearly a boom. The Epic Pass has definitely given a shot in the arm to "skier days", at least at Vail resorts.

A parking garage (preferably with an underground component) is the solution for PC Base. Nobody wants to shuttle in.

It definitely is a story of the people that got in first and were smart (aka bought something affordable and closer in) reap the benefits. They get to raise their kids and own something that is likely appreciating. Everybody late to the party has to shell out the dimes. That's any resort town anywhere. None of waltz into Laguna Beach and pretend we're going to find something affordable in 2017....or 2007...or 1997. There are still "affordable" ski towns out there, but none of them have the cachet of Vail, Aspen, Telluride...for that you needed to be bumming around with someone like Pete Seibert in the mid 60s.

Breaking_RadI think the one thing you are also ignoring is the economy. Money was pretty whack from about 2007 till about 2 years ago. I used to be able to find deals galore at the hill (hotels, food). So certainly the Epic Pass has made a difference, but it has also renewed some interest in actual skiing. I'd look at the Epic Pass as an opportunity in some areas - for instance, Copper here is pretty mellow most of the time. I have to imagine Alta and Snowbird are a lot more mellow than PC/Canyons. Vail is snagging up most of the swank ski destinations, but now they are like 25% more swank and a lot more crowded.

There is a bit of a boom and bust in skiing. Right now it is clearly a boom. The Epic Pass has definitely given a shot in the arm to "skier days", at least at Vail resorts.

A parking garage (preferably with an underground component) is the solution for PC Base. Nobody wants to shuttle in.

It definitely is a story of the people that got in first and were smart (aka bought something affordable and closer in) reap the benefits. They get to raise their kids and own something that is likely appreciating. Everybody late to the party has to shell out the dimes. That's any resort town anywhere. None of waltz into Laguna Beach and pretend we're going to find something affordable in 2017....or 2007...or 1997. There are still "affordable" ski towns out there, but none of them have the cachet of Vail, Aspen, Telluride...for that you needed to be bumming around with someone like Pete Seibert in the mid 60s.

I mean sure, that's definitely part of it too, Vail wouldn't have bought park city in 2007...

Utah resorts are busy. Granted, PC is overall more busy than any other resort, no one would doubt that, but alta/snowbird are fully as busy as PC on weekends and holidays, Brighton/Solitude aren't as bad, Snowbasin and Powmow are more like Copper, etc, in CO.

Skiing is just booming, it hasn't really 'busted' per say, the overall recession gave it a slow down, but skiing is always going up. The last 2 of 3 years (not counting this year) were some of the worst seasons of snow we've seen in utah, yet skier days went up. That's just one drop in the bucket, but the point is that skiing isnt boom bust, its just boom.

A parking garage is probably in the future at PC as well, but it'll still cost money, they'll have to shuttle people from aux lots, its how keystone, breck, vail, and even aspen they do it.

The housing situation is what it is, I never said it should be different, tbh its probably the most difficult thing to overcome. Its more likely that people move and commute, some low-income housing will be created, employee housing will mostly dominate it and people not associated with the resort will live outside of town, end of story ha.

eheathI dunno who you are, but say hi to george for me.

As to counter to a few points here:

1. I used to live across the street from PCMR for the past 3 seasons, I walked up to the resort every time I skied, there has been a very noticeable difference between pre-vail and post-vail and anyone who skis at PC can tell you it has gotten much, much worse since vail took over. The lots at PC used to not get full outside of holidays and maybe a powder day on a weekend. Driving up to PC on a wednesday you could find a parking spot at any time, now you show up at 10am and the lot is full, on a cloudy average ski day in the middle of the week. That is a huge change. Now this could just be a product of the resort growing in general, but it happens right when Vail took over. There is no denying that Vail brings in more people, period.

The solution? More satellite lots with more direct bus routes from said parking lots and $5-$10 parking at the base of the resort to encourage the use of these remote parking lots. Its going to happen, we should just accept it.

2. Locals being pushed out of town was a problem before Vail, but its worse now. I personally know multiple people getting kicked out of their rentals, in the last year, after their lease so the owner could rent it out nightly or sell the unit/house. There is a ton of money in either selling (property has been going up regardless of vail, but its accelerating due to vail) and renting nightly is obviously much more lucrative than long term. I'm not surprised by it, just extremely frustrated by it.

PC has been talking affordable housing for awhile and now it's even more of an issue with Vail in town. Will vail build housing? Sure for like what 100 people that they employ? Good start, but it's not just 'low income' 'resort employees' that need housing. People can make good money in park city being a bartender or a server, but it's not enough to buy a house and the money for rentals isnt the problem, its the availability. We don't need "cheap rentals" PC just needs rentals in general. This is a wash whether Vail has effected this or not, but nothing has happened...yet.

3. Nobody who lives in park city (or salt lake city for that matter) gives a fuck if they built a gondola, updated motherload to a quad or made king kong a 6 pack.

The gondola is worthless, you can ski to the bottom of PC, take the bus to the Canyons side, ride up the lifts there and it takes less time than the monstrosity that is the Quicksilver gondola + 3 other lifts to reach anything remotely skiable. Sure its fun to ride the circuit, but it's a gaper trap, it's made to suck gapers across the mountain, period.

Motherload update is cool, but who fucking cares. King kong upgrade is nice too, but there is still a line every day at that lift cause it a huge funnel, 6 pack didn't make a lick of difference. When they upgrade pioneer and town we'll be talking about a true, functional update.

4. The town is probably the only gleam of light I see from Vail coming to town. Businesses are doing really well, lots of money, etc its all good. Sure there are tons of fucking people around no matter what, tiny roads made for 1000 people with 10k (50k during sundance, but that's another can of worms) get clogged, whatever. I'm not going to be one of those park city residents that bitches about traffic, it's really not that bad. As long as it never gets as bad as it is during sundance, which is unlikely because sundance is a phenomenon, it's a huge event that's amazing for our town.

5. I only brought up the high school to demonstrate the amount of families in this town, its not just a bunch of ski bums and resort workers, tons of families call PC home, the city and vail should want to support this, I'm sure they do.

6. The commuting thing ties into housing, its not like people wont commute, but half the reason people move to utah to work for a resort is to live in the town, not in some shit bag appartment complex in kimball junction. This ties into my frustrations of housing switching from long term to short term rental.

I'm enjoying this conversation, whoever you are ;)

you fucking nailed it, dude. cant forget them trying to trademark "park city" which was like some mafia "pay up or get fucked" shit.

being someone whos lived in/near PC could be biased but eheath has a point. is all the fucking money that brings people in because of the epic pass worth the town being unbearable for nearly six months out of the year? people forget that there are people who have been visiting PC for decades and have spent incredible amounts of money. The city makes shitloads from the movie festival, tons of other events like the world cups and the occasional FIS slope/pipe comps. PC has been absolutely booming well before vail setup shop. I don't really buy that whole "look at the money they bring into town" shit because PC is a another ski town where the money is plenty fine. Its not worth being ran out of town over at all.

EHeath_NSHere is what I really think:



While I do say paying for parking is inevitable, I realize that there is nothing close to official saying that it will be happening. But lets assume it does - what solutions exist? Park City had a parking issue on their hands before Vail came in. There are 2 options to closer align the demand for parking and the available spaces: Reduce the amount of people who need parking spaces or Increase parking spaces available. PC's Public Transit is about as good as it gets so improving that will not further decreases the demand for spots. So, how else does one closer align the supply of spots to the demand for spots. You can decrease demand by charging for parking spots. Or, you can increase supply and build a parking structure. The latter option will be a huge expense for Vail as well as an eye-sore to the area. Why should Vail eat these costs when it will not drastically impact the amount of people who come to ski? It is perfectly reasonable for them to begin charging for parking in a parking structure and the same case would have applied to PowderCorp.

I mentioned that locals are being pushed out of the town and that everything is more expensive but I am ignoring the fact that Vail has pledged to build employee housing available at below-market rates. Further, I have not seen proof or numbers supporting those statements. They were both issues before Vail came to Park City but there is no proof that Vail is increasing the rate at which these economical issues grow.



I also fail to mention that Vail upgraded the slow lifts at Park City as well as added a Gondola that connects two large resorts. It is awful having the option to ski from Park City to The Canyons or Vice Versa. I wish it was never given to us.



Ask me how the town of Park City has changed. I won't be able to point to anything other than crowds or perhaps a trademark dispute that Vail ended up conceding.



"Thinking about building another" Is a pretty loose statement-which is why I made it. there isn't much momentum behind the idea but its tough to say that nobody is thinking about it. Here is the most recent article regarding the capacity of PCHS: http://www.parkrecord.com/news/education/park-city-school-district-ponders-2017-2018-grade-realignment/




I realize that residents of major metropolitan areas are having the same troubles and are often commuting more than my claim of 40 miles but I am choosing to ignore it in the context of this argument.

I am all for capitalism and advancement, unless my broke ass is the one that suffers.

I'm amazed that you had enough conviction to comment in depth on this topic but at the same time, enough of a pussy that you had to use a throwaway account to say it. Are you really SO concerned about the controversiality of your opinion that you couldn't stand behind it?

eheathI mean sure, that's definitely part of it too, Vail wouldn't have bought park city in 2007...

Utah resorts are busy. Granted, PC is overall more busy than any other resort, no one would doubt that, but alta/snowbird are fully as busy as PC on weekends and holidays, Brighton/Solitude aren't as bad, Snowbasin and Powmow are more like Copper, etc, in CO.

Skiing is just booming, it hasn't really 'busted' per say, the overall recession gave it a slow down, but skiing is always going up. The last 2 of 3 years (not counting this year) were some of the worst seasons of snow we've seen in utah, yet skier days went up. That's just one drop in the bucket, but the point is that skiing isnt boom bust, its just boom.

A parking garage is probably in the future at PC as well, but it'll still cost money, they'll have to shuttle people from aux lots, its how keystone, breck, vail, and even aspen they do it.

The housing situation is what it is, I never said it should be different, tbh its probably the most difficult thing to overcome. Its more likely that people move and commute, some low-income housing will be created, employee housing will mostly dominate it and people not associated with the resort will live outside of town, end of story ha.

The parking garage has to happen in PC. Something that quadruples the current lot. That lot is simply too small for what it is and PC is every bit as Vail as Vail and they've got two. While they are at it somebody needs to bulldoze and start that PC core "village" over. That thing looks like the cocktail napkin drawings of "WestWorld". But that's what Vail does...they Pretty Woman up a place. They take a dimestore hooker like Afton Alps and doll her up. Kidding, Park City has a lot going for it, but that base area...sheesh. Vail is going to give that the full Lionshead if they get the chance.

The housing situation is a situation, but the nature of ski bums is they are transient. The smart ones that wanted to stay probably got something small and overpriced and now are living the dream. But the key was committing. Buying that 3BR townhouse or condo and renting the extra bedrooms to 2-4 friends and paying that mortgage. Renting isn't investing and renters usually end up on the outside. If a person shows up in PC or Breck or Telluride and says "this is the place for me" they usually find a way to make it work. Kimball Junction is what it is, but it is still Park City. Denverites are eating Five Guys and Cafe Rio. Kimball has the best of both worlds - suburban trappings and a 10 minute bus ride.

EHeath is totally on point with everything. As someone who lives and serves at a restaurant at the base, it is impossible to park and that makes it difficult. Housing is hard to find, especially with a kid. The price is kind of insignificant it's just that you period can't find it. I love my job and make good money, which maybe Vail helped, but there are other sides which Evan touched on.

Laurent.Vail is pretty much playing Pokemon with resorts right now.

First thing I thought of was Monopoly Snowboard edition.

MalcolmFirst thing I thought of was Monopoly Snowboard edition.

Now that is a game I'd like to play.

Vailopoly?

eheathI'm mostly bias about vail because I live in Park City and have witnessed hands on how much vail changes a resort when they buy it and how much the town changes as well. Sure, the town is fucking booming, which is great overall, but everything becomes more difficult and frustrating for locals when more tourists come to town.

I don't actually think it will change the town of Stowe very much. Stowe is a unique ski town in that it would exist in it's current state even if there wasn't a ski area here. There's more non-skiing tourism here than skiing tourism by far. It will be interesting to see. I think there are going to be a lot of things Vail wants to do and the town doesn't let them.

MalcolmFirst thing I thought of was Monopoly Snowboard edition.

Mr.BishopNow that is a game I'd like to play.

Vailopoly?

thatd actually be sick, as far as themed monopoly variations go. squaw has to be Boardwalk though ;)

SofaKingSickthatd actually be sick, as far as themed monopoly variations go. squaw has to be Boardwalk though ;)

What's park place?

also wouldn't aspen be boardwalk?

Mr.BishopWhat's park place?

also wouldn't aspen be boardwalk?

If its vailopoly, boardwalk would be Vail. C'mon guys.