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japanadaGotta buy a decent amount to get a decent discount to be able to make some coin on the resale.
RevelinyourstokeAlso.. you are pretty much going to be forced to sell at MAP.
japanadaTechnically you can see for whatever you want to you just cant advertise below map. What company are you talking about op?
RevelinyourstokeWelcome to the equilibrium. Technically I could sell them for a dollar and technically I could sell them for a billion.
The majority of ski shops are having penny wars selling their shit on Amazon and eBay. To compete, you have to offer free shipping so you are introduced to USPS and FedEx who both just jacked their prices up. Eating that cost.
From there you have to pay your U-Line bill, your Amazon bill, taxes, web platform, etc. That's just for selling online. Want to open a shop? Now you have employees, infrastructure, etc.
It's a losing battle in a struggling industry.
OP, If you want to ski at all, open a golf shop. As an owner you will work the most during your busiest season.. winter.
RevelinyourstokeWelcome to the equilibrium. Technically I could sell them for a dollar and technically I could sell them for a billion.
The majority of ski shops are having penny wars selling their shit on Amazon and eBay. To compete, you have to offer free shipping so you are introduced to USPS and FedEx who both just jacked their prices up. Eating that cost.
From there you have to pay your U-Line bill, your Amazon bill, taxes, web platform, etc. That's just for selling online. Want to open a shop? Now you have employees, infrastructure, etc.
It's a losing battle in a struggling industry.
OP, If you want to ski at all, open a golf shop. As an owner you will work the most during your busiest season.. winter.
Mr.BishopAt the very least, I'm hard pressed to believe you'll be able to exist without somewhere to try on boots and get them fit properly.
What else?
Mr.BishopWhat else?
RevelinyourstokeWhile that would hold true for skiers such as you and I, we are simply a small sliver of the overall market. The average skier is purchasing their boots, accepting the fit, and hitting the mountain 5-10 days a season with their family. With boot guides being thrown up on sites such as Evo and Backcountry, consumers are a lot more confident ordering boots online based on their shoe size. They don't know what a true fit should feel like and are accepting a semi-uncomfortable fit.
Additionally, as general knowledge increases and new technology is developed, it is becoming easier for consumers to do their own boot work from the comfort of their couch.
RevelinyourstokeAlso wanted to add that it is increasingly popular for a customer to walk in, get a fit and some free information, then leave and purchase their boots online for a better price.
Mr.BishopSo what is the solution?
Its a great meta question about the place of the traditional brick and mortar shop in our industry.
At the very least, I'm hard pressed to believe you'll be able to exist without somewhere to try on boots and get them fit properly.
What else?
RevelinyourstokeAlso wanted to add that it is increasingly popular for a customer to walk in, get a fit and some free information, then leave and purchase their boots online for a better price.
tomPietrowskiif people are doing that then the bootfitter is not doing there job. Having a boot fitted and simply trying them on is a very different thing. We explain how much work goes into fitting a boot and how much it will cost if they purchase online and in nearly every case they buy from us. However we fit boots as do many shops in whistler, a service which you simply cant get online currently.
tomPietrowskiExperienced staff is what makes shop succesfull. The best shops in whistler get by by offering little to no discount on products as we offer the best service and people will pay it. People, in my experience anyway, still want that service which can only be delivered by trained people. They are happy to pay more for a good and easy experience. There are countless times we have people who have got boots and other products "cheap" elsewhere and when they get to resort they find that they are not working for them. After paying how ever much to come on vacation they are more then happy to pay to just have you sort them out and get them back on the hill.
If anything online sales are keeping resort shops going, and if anything increasing our turnover, as we actually end up with more customers thanks to most people having no idea what they actually need.
RevelinyourstokeYou work at a resort... in Whistler.
When it comes to shops.. the quality of the work and fit, whether through masterfit or 30 years of on the job training, doesn't stop customers from getting to the point of purchasing a boot and saying "alright, well I'm going to look around some more" and taking their new found knowledge to the internet.
Clearly you can not get an actual fit done online, but what I am stating is that the vast majority of skiers DONT get an actual fit... ever. The family of three that skis 5-10 days a week and loading up on Divine 55's and Mission 60's isn't looking to spend up on boots. We just did a MAP analysis timeline on 17/18 skis and brands overwhelming target the $499-$599 system ski sales. Not a 799 soul 7 or 699 bonafide. Why? Because that doesn't target the market majority. Just as the average customer in the ski industry isn't purchasing a $500 dollar pair of boots and having them worked on. Even if they were, the $499-$599 price tag on a pair of RS 130's would be laughable when compared to the $330 price on Evo. So they need work done to the boot? Que thousands of threads and youtube videos combined with a $15 heat gun and dremel.
Don't get me wrong. As a bootfitter I completely understand where you are coming from but let's be honest here. Maybe your resort in Whistler is thriving with business, but down here in the real world.. brands, reps, shops, etc. are trying to find an angle.
tomPietrowskiYeah it must be different I guess. This season I have noticed the average price people are spending on boots has really jumped up. The average sale for a boot is now $800-1200. But we get plenty of people who come to us for boots. Rightly or wrongly we get people who will happily spend there money in resort as they have the expectation of better service in resort then they will get back home. Most places here will be looking at a boot, custom footbed and shell and liner work as a base fit. That is impossible to get currently online. Once you explain that the boots can't be fit fully unless work is done most people are happy to spend more to get the comfort they expect. We probably are different though. We barely sell any system skis here. Even people who only ski 5 days a year still want good equipment but I guess being in a pricy place like whistler means we get those higher end guests. But certainly so far online sales have done nothing but drive up sales for us in resorts.
japanadaOur shop sells everything in store at or below what an evo or bc does and includes all the fitting one would expect to find in a good shop. That's what it will come to across the board end of story. In high volume areas it will take longer for this to happen. In the midwest and east coast it is already happening. You gotta stay competitive.
tomPietrowskiYeah it must be different I guess. This season I have noticed the average price people are spending on boots has really jumped up. The average sale for a boot is now $800-1200. But we get plenty of people who come to us for boots. Rightly or wrongly we get people who will happily spend there money in resort as they have the expectation of better service in resort then they will get back home. Most places here will be looking at a boot, custom footbed and shell and liner work as a base fit. That is impossible to get currently online. Once you explain that the boots can't be fit fully unless work is done most people are happy to spend more to get the comfort they expect. We probably are different though. We barely sell any system skis here. Even people who only ski 5 days a year still want good equipment but I guess being in a pricy place like whistler means we get those higher end guests. But certainly so far online sales have done nothing but drive up sales for us in resorts.
japanadaIm curious, what does a lupo sp id or a rx130 go for Tom?
japanadaIm curious, what does a lupo sp id or a rx130 go for Tom?
RevelinyourstokeYeah we can't get away with that. We are forced to match online including all work short of a custom footbed.
Out of curiosity.. have you worked anywhere else? Just wondering how your current place compares to any others you may have worked.
japanadaOur shop sells everything in store at or below what an evo or bc does and includes all the fitting one would expect to find in a good shop. That's what it will come to across the board end of story. In high volume areas it will take longer for this to happen. In the midwest and east coast it is already happening. You gotta stay competitive.
MGKWhat shop is this? Because I can't afford retail but definitely wanna hook up local shops.
RevelinyourstokeThe majority of shops, at least on the east coast, will match online (as long as it includes shipping). The closer you are to a mountain the harder it will be.
MGKWell my shop is pretty expensive (on East coast) plus they don't really sell a ton of stuff and what they do sell evo rarely has a deal on... Probably for that reason
Revelinyourstokewhere are you? Just curious as to how much it varies based on location.
MGKUpstate NY, specifically Albany
RevelinyourstokeSo do you purchase most of your shit online because of those prices? Do you ever have boot work done?
FYI there is nothing wrong with that if you do and I think you fall into the vast majority.
RevelinyourstokeAlso wanted to add that it is increasingly popular for a customer to walk in, get a fit and some free information, then leave and purchase their boots online for a better price.
RevelinyourstokeWhile that would hold true for skiers such as you and I, we are simply a small sliver of the overall market. The average skier is purchasing their boots, accepting the fit, and hitting the mountain 5-10 days a season with their family. With boot guides being thrown up on sites such as Evo and Backcountry, consumers are a lot more confident ordering boots online based on their shoe size. They don't know what a true fit should feel like and are accepting a semi-uncomfortable fit.
Additionally, as general knowledge increases and new technology is developed, it is becoming easier for consumers to do their own boot work from the comfort of their couch.
Mr.BishopSo what actual value can a shop add to a consumer, and how can they be convinced of said value ?
MGKUpstate NY, specifically Albany
tomPietrowskiWhat the shops add is somthing online can't, personal fitting. If you just buy a boot online you still need it moulding and chances are you will need some shell work done along with replacing the stock insoles. We basciacally tell people we charge $100 an hour for this work if they purchase the boot else where and all work will be charged. When they learn this and also that all work for 1 whole year is covered in the cost of buying a boot in store next to no one looks at buying online as finically it's just not a good option. Skis can be harder as a ski is a ski and other then mounting needs no work but again offering a free mount if purchased in store helps but ski sales drive less business then boot sales even though you make more margin as it's a much faster sale. Shops that do the best are the ones that fit boots well. Do that well and you will have a constant stream of customers.
SammyDubzAlbany native here. Where do you go? I'm assuming high adventure?
MGKYup you got it, where are you living now?
SammyDubzstudent at Notre Dame
I like high adventure personally. they've always been great to me in terms of bootfitting. I agree that their selection is a little small, but then again it's a small shop. They do have some good sales in the off season, so I try to keep an eye out for those.
SammyDubzstudent at Notre Dame
I like high adventure personally. they've always been great to me in terms of bootfitting. I agree that their selection is a little small, but then again it's a small shop. They do have some good sales in the off season, so I try to keep an eye out for those.
MGKYeah I usually go to them although I haven't gone in a few years (I've worn the same boot for the last 3 years),but I'll probably be getting new boots next season. Gold stocks also has one or two pretty good bootfitters
.MASSHOLE.Great bootfitter relatively close to Albany is Marc Stewart up at Windham. Dude is super busy all the time so scheduling a time is a must, but he is super chill about working on boots he can't get for you/purchase elsewhere.
Not sure about preseason or post-season sales, but worth checking out if you need a fit.
Mr.BishopBoots really seem to be the place where the modern ski shop could make a big difference. There should be a coalition of shops that get together to market the idea of getting boots fitted properly. Make it so that people joining the sport for the first time are really educated on how shitty of an idea it is to not get your boots properly fit.
Mr.BishopBoots really seem to be the place where the modern ski shop could make a big difference. There should be a coalition of shops that get together to market the idea of getting boots fitted properly. Make it so that people joining the sport for the first time are really educated on how shitty of an idea it is to not get your boots properly fit.
Mr.BishopYou know, there's a model online for this which should be applied to ski shops.
Online, you can do "Affiliate Marketing" where as a website you provide all kinds of helpful information to a reader to help them make a purchase decision. They are then given a cookie, which gives you around 10% of the sale if they buy from a shop within the next 90 days.
The online retailers should work out something like this for brick and mortar shops.
CaseyI hate to play devil's advocate here, because you are completely right, but a lot of people like myself will not pay MSRP for anything out of principle. So if your average shop could swing last year's stuff at near cost the way the internet seems to do so well, they would be getting a lot more business IMO. Like maybe if the MTN Labs weren't literally 800 dollars I could afford to support EVO like a good steward of the industry. But I can't, and maybe a couple tax brackets from now I will have the privelage of dropping that kind of coin to support other people's lifestyle choices, but not today. Fuck that.
RevelinyourstokeThat is my entire point. The main life line is bootfitting. The issue is, the majority of the mass market DONT get their boot fitted and just accept it for what it is due to lack of knowledge.
That is a good concept, but how does it happen?
LamafamaIts getting that way, (I work in SEO / Content dev), the biggest hurdle to overcome is app / hardware / location info sharing / accuracy. Googles really been pushing its location services and really updating the way its maps API works in the last few months. Once its all able to sync up it will be a case of programmers getting on board and developing methods to make it really work for the end users (customers and business).
Mr.BishopI mean if your business relies on people paying full price because they're nice, you're gonna have a bad fucking year. That just isn't how the world works. The key is to offer some value for that price, or figure out how to make money while matching prices. The internet is great for getting good prices, but online shopping still has a lot of holes which brick and mortar are great at. My main point is that less shops need to be sitting around complaining that the internet ruined their business, and either taking action in a way that they can offer extra value, or just throwing in the towel and giving up.
Sucks - but that is how the market works in business.
There's loads of examples of industries getting together to market to consumers. Take the Milk Industry's Body by Milk campaign. I grew up with the "Milk: It does a body good" propoganda and fully believed that my massive milk consumption was everything that made me a strong human being.
Ethics of that aside - that is an example of an industry banning together, pooling marketing resources and aggressively going out to convince consumers they need something. This shit works.
You'd have to either start talking to shops, or approach an organization that oversees all shops. (SIA?) Its the scale you can get from all branding together and coming up with some message to push out to mass consumers which would convince them that there is a reason they MUST use brick and mortar shops.
Yeah the beacon type stuff is really interesting too. I have a buddy that is messing around with that in other industries, and I feel like some sort of implementation in the shop space in snowsports could be a game changer. There's loads of consumers out there who are using shops to check stuff out and buying online. You can make decent money as an affiliate marketer - and I wonder if there could be a whole model out there that could be applied to the physical world.
RevelinyourstokeTo the first point; You make a solid statement, although at the same time his view resembles the vast majority of the market. There has to be a reason why individuals would NEED to go to a ski shop for a boot fitting. Until ski boots are being 3D printed on the spot or liners are being created on the spot there is no NEED to go to a shop as they are usable out-of-the-box. It seems as though there has been a solid campaign for getting your boots fit by a boot fitter but that may not apply to a majority unless they go into a shop and speak with someone who knows what they are talking about. For that to happen they have to walk into the shop. So how do we campaign and reach a market that is in the shadows until they hit purchase or walk into a shop?
I'm curious as to what the average prices are for boots online compared to in a shop and I may do some looking into it, but this is the age of the internet and it will be hard to fight that.
