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Product idea.. avy safety/drones

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corona
Posts: 12803 - Karma: 32,817
Just saw the Candide video with the drone automatically following and filming him.. so imagine this now:

how absolutely sick would it be to see a follow shot from a drone filming someone slaying an AK spine or BC pillows. The technology already exists, as we can see.

So what if you get caught in an avalanche while one of these is following you.. seems like a waste of technology to not have it help out. It's totally possible and it wouldn't be very expensive to have the drone then land on top of the snow exactly over where you're buried in the case of an avalanche. It would make finding someone way faster.. could easily be the difference between life and death in places like AK where if someone gets caught in an avalanche they might be 2000ft below you where you can't watch them and get an idea of where they got buried.


Not that there would be much of a market.. but it would be cool all the same.

Or in a resort situation where an avalanche buries more than 1 person out or in bounds, before patrollers even have a chance to get there a drone could have already flown from the top or bottom of the lift and landed over the nearest buried person. Or even the deepest buried. Kind of cool what technology could do.
Feb 2 2017 3:59PM
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Mingg
Posts: 13992 - Karma: 49,648
that would be fucking sick.
Feb 2 2017 4:26PM
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skiznuts
Posts: 462 - Karma: 784
Maybe it could somehow push a hole through the snow for air once it gets to you.
Feb 3 2017 1:48PM
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rballs_
Posts: 709 - Karma: 2,991
I wonder why this hasn't been made yet? maybe no one thought of it until now? or maybe there would be mechanical issues or something like battery life, interfering with radio waves from avy beacons/transceivers, fear that it would give some people a false sense of security (invincible feeling), trees or something like that idk.

Another problem to address is that a lot of avalanche deaths are caused from the hundreds of pounds of snow dragging people into rocks/trees/cliffs and causing injuries that lead to death. but that would be really unavoidable i guess :(
Feb 3 2017 2:11PM
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StuckInMidwest
Posts: 13 - Karma: 60
Battery life+cold is the major problem here. Would be awesome to see it happen.They could hire a full time ski patrol pilot or something but the batteries aren't good enough yet.
Feb 3 2017 2:26PM
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Static
Posts: 8561 - Karma: 4,139
StuckInMidwestBattery life+cold is the major problem here. Would be awesome to see it happen.They could hire a full time ski patrol pilot or something but the batteries aren't good enough yet.


I don't see that being a problem at all. The drones aren't intended to be flying around 24/7 waiting for an avalanche.

If it was already filming someone then it has the juice to land. If it's sitting in a ski patrol shack until there's an avalanche the batteries would be fully charged.
Feb 3 2017 3:52PM
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treebeard
Posts: 3682 - Karma: 2,164
rballs_interfering with radio waves from avy beacons/transceivers


this is probably the biggest issue. but if they found a way to minimize interference, you could theoretically embed a beacon into the drone's hardware

super cool idea. could definitely save lives if done right
Feb 3 2017 5:31PM
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wrichmond
Posts: 562 - Karma: 369
Backcountry-
Victims swept up in avys can be carried 1000s of feet, so unless the drone was equipped with a beacon, there would be no way of following a victim after he/she was enveloped in the snow. An airbag would be much more effective for keeping a victim safe and more visible.

Resort-
Very few resort skiers wear beacons. Also, to have an effective search, any other nearby beacon would have to be in search mode, not receive. Especially as they will likely be in different groups, this would be quite challenging to coordinate without a patroller directing them.
Also where would the drone go? Just stakeout a run with someone watching the feed all day


Interesting idea, but the best technology in the backcountry is always your brain.
Feb 3 2017 8:15PM
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brett_fisher
Posts: 2418 - Karma: 10,501
maybe some sort of way to find heat would kick ass finding people in avys
Feb 3 2017 9:28PM
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Zennan
Posts: 222 - Karma: 165
I though of something semi similar to this before.... I thought maybe infrared or ultrasonic signaling beacons that always have a trace on something and always flies above or near the object following like you said. Then if someone is caught in an avalanche you can just essentially click a come home button and it will land on top of wherever you are. Really only use to big name BC skiers and companies like TGR though.
Feb 4 2017 2:30AM
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corona
Posts: 12803 - Karma: 32,817
wrichmondBackcountry-
Victims swept up in avys can be carried 1000s of feet, so unless the drone was equipped with a beacon, there would be no way of following a victim after he/she was enveloped in the snow. An airbag would be much more effective for keeping a victim safe and more visible.

Resort-
Very few resort skiers wear beacons. Also, to have an effective search, any other nearby beacon would have to be in search mode, not receive. Especially as they will likely be in different groups, this would be quite challenging to coordinate without a patroller directing them.
Also where would the drone go? Just stakeout a run with someone watching the feed all day


Interesting idea, but the best technology in the backcountry is always your brain.



well that's the point. the drone would have a receiver built into it. It would be able to do exactly what a human with a beacon could do except way way faster. Seconds count. It could save minutes when there are multiple burials.

It wouldn't matter what anybody else is doing with their beacons, it would automatically track and go straight to the closest signal (or furthest, or whatever you want). Exactly what a human does, except it can move way faster and there is no human error.
Feb 4 2017 11:44AM
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skistupid
Posts: 304 - Karma: 1,199
There are so many issues with this idea.
Feb 4 2017 12:56PM
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treebeard
Posts: 3682 - Karma: 2,164
D.B.There are so many issues with this idea.


what an insightful comment
Feb 4 2017 2:11PM
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marrows
Posts: 399 - Karma: 656
rofl
Feb 4 2017 3:24PM
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Casey
Posts: 7875 - Karma: 24,672
It seems like you will always get a lot of backlash in this industry from people that think that any new innovation will just invite inexperienced skiers to take more risk.

I think as long as the drone doesn't interfere with the beacons that everyone is wearing, or works in conjunction with them, which is entirely possible to do, then it's a really good idea.
Feb 4 2017 4:29PM
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pajibber
Posts: 614 - Karma: 42
There are tons of people working on this idea. This is how disaster recovery will be done in 5 years. The tech isn't ready yet. If you could build it you'd be billionaire (seriously, Otto and Comma.ai both $1Billion companies in less than a year of operation).

You are talking about two ideas here:
1. "Follow-me" drone tech.Requires a ton of Artificial Intelligence
2. Better than GPS navigation system. Requires data transmission in no LTE coverage areas.

This is the tech that's used in driverless cars. Candide's video is the perfect illustration of why it's not ready. The drone needs sensors and computing power to do predictive computer vision calcs, which no one can do yet. It needs to anticipate the people, terrain, etc... to make sure it doesn't slam into anything. The drone crashes when it can't calculate where Candide is going in regards to its surroundings (not saying this tech was using an AI powered follow-me tech but just for sake of convo.

The core challenge here is sensing(visual, infrared, LIDAR, etc..) and maneuvering. It's simple to track a beacon's location using bluetooth, GPS, etc... but the challenge is building an object detection and navigation system that works at speed and low altitude. The higher the altitude the easier "follow-me" gets as there are less obstacles to get in the drone's way.

The easier way to do this would be to have some sort of signal repeater to take the signal from the buried victim's beacon and communicate it to the rescue team.

My credentials: I run an artificial intelligence company in NYC.
Feb 5 2017 2:56AM
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Holte
Posts: 10742 - Karma: 7,819
As long as we're talking about patrolling and avalanches and drones, I'd imagine it's only a (short) matter of time before avy control is done by drones dropping charges.
Feb 5 2017 3:02AM
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Lonely
Posts: 6767 - Karma: 62,137
Battery life is going to be your biggest issue. Cold temperatures and high altitudes do not compliment drones.

But this does definitely have potential. DJI drones already can steer themselves around objects and follow visually acquired locks.

Throw in a beacon, some better batteries, and lower the cost and you just might have yourself the new avy recovery system.
Feb 5 2017 10:24AM
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Static
Posts: 8561 - Karma: 4,139
pajibberYou are talking about two ideas here:
1. "Follow-me" drone tech.Requires a ton of Artificial Intelligence
2. Better than GPS navigation system. Requires data transmission in no LTE coverage areas.


My credentials: I run an artificial intelligence company in NYC.


Prosumer drones already do both of those things. Some track visually, others use a sensor like the AirDog. Spot transmitters work everywhere. Gps works everywhere. They already have lidar and shit stuffed into these things.

THe only real issue that's been brought up is using avy beacons if everyone is still in transmit. I think they need propreitary tracking signals, not whatever beacons currently use.
Feb 5 2017 10:28AM
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wrichmond
Posts: 562 - Karma: 369
VinnieFwell that's the point. the drone would have a receiver built into it. It would be able to do exactly what a human with a beacon could do except way way faster. Seconds count. It could save minutes when there are multiple burials.

It wouldn't matter what anybody else is doing with their beacons, it would automatically track and go straight to the closest signal (or furthest, or whatever you want). Exactly what a human does, except it can move way faster and there is no human error.


Have you ever used a beacon before?
Please take an avy safety course, learn about how rescue works, and then revise your idea about how the drone would track the correct signal
Feb 5 2017 6:02PM
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treebeard
Posts: 3682 - Karma: 2,164
wrichmondHave you ever used a beacon before?
Please take an avy safety course, learn about how rescue works, and then revise your idea about how the drone would track the correct signal


but he's right...

assuming everyone is in search mode (which they should be if the drone is actively being used to locate someone), it would only pick up on the transmitting (buried) signal(s)

why is that any different than humans doing a search?
Feb 5 2017 6:22PM
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corona
Posts: 12803 - Karma: 32,817
wrichmondHave you ever used a beacon before?
Please take an avy safety course, learn about how rescue works, and then revise your idea about how the drone would track the correct signal


I have used beacons before. I am very familiar with how they work, both from a user point of view and from the technological point of view. I do not see any issues that could not be overcome either through technology or through how it's used.

I can see a triage situation being difficult to figure out, but for the situation where you're in the bc and the drone is following you to film you then I see no issues at all.
Feb 5 2017 9:42PM
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profa_212
Posts: 8949 - Karma: 36,475
Recco? A shit load of clothes are coming with recco in them now...and for inbounds skiing it could be useful on the drone. Have a drone sitting on a charger until needed in each patrol shack...slide happens...patroller snags the drone and tosses it out near the slide...searches while patrol is still getting situated/rest of patrol is getting to the area. No beacon interference due to it being recco...and nobody really wears a beacon inbounds anyways.

Could be really cool especially with all the outerwear coming with recco...more clothestablished with it the more effective
Feb 6 2017 3:43AM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22708 - Karma: 76,635
rballs_I wonder why this hasn't been made yet? maybe no one thought of it until now? or maybe there would be mechanical issues or something like battery life, interfering with radio waves from avy beacons/transceivers, fear that it would give some people a false sense of security (invincible feeling), trees or something like that idk.

Another problem to address is that a lot of avalanche deaths are caused from the hundreds of pounds of snow dragging people into rocks/trees/cliffs and causing injuries that lead to death. but that would be really unavoidable i guess :(


Cost would be a huge issue. I mean in order to be effective, the thing would have to fly above you for an entire day of touring / riding. On resort, it'd have to follow you up the chair.

Full day of battery life on a flying drone would make the thing into a mini-helicopter and would likely cost 10s of thousands of dollars.

Sick concept though, just gotta wait for battery technology to hit the next level and it totally could work.
Feb 7 2017 1:10PM
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freeskibum82
Posts: 6355 - Karma: 5,057
how would the drone know the skier is in an avalanche? how would you be able to identify a skier in trouble?

it's an interesting idea, curious your thoughts on that
Feb 7 2017 1:57PM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 9327 - Karma: 61,264
low rent version: you tie a few helium balloons to yourself on the end of a few hundred feet of fishing line. eh voila! no battery or beacon system needed

if you need any more problems solved just toss em my way
Feb 9 2017 3:01PM
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Revelinyourstoke
Posts: 125 - Karma: 61
Recco.
Feb 9 2017 4:04PM
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Revelinyourstoke
Posts: 125 - Karma: 61
Alcedo and AARA.

Cool shit.
Feb 9 2017 4:24PM
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Casey
Posts: 7875 - Karma: 24,672
freeskibum82how would the drone know the skier is in an avalanche? how would you be able to identify a skier in trouble?

it's an interesting idea, curious your thoughts on that


I would think that ideally, you are skiing one at a time in avalanche terrain, so maybe there is a wristwatch, or some kind of interface that tells the drone who to follow, and really if the drone is programmed to always be over you then you will be locatable if you are buried. I was going to say have some kind of airbag type rip cord or button that sends the drone into panic mode or something. Idk
Feb 9 2017 11:06PM
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Static
Posts: 8561 - Karma: 4,139
Looks like they already made one,

Alcedo uses a GPS module and a magnetic compass for orientation on the avalanche site. While flying over the avalanche, alcedo constantly looks for avalanche transceiver signals. After detecting one, it localises the transceiver, flies to the corresponding position, and drops a smoke beacon.

http://www.esnc.info/index.php?anzeige=switzerland10.html
Feb 11 2017 10:36AM
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Static
Posts: 8561 - Karma: 4,139
Whoops, missed the link a few comments up.
Feb 11 2017 10:38AM
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Revelinyourstoke
Posts: 125 - Karma: 61
StaticWhoops, missed the link a few comments up.

They even have them flying optimum search patterns.
Feb 11 2017 11:30AM
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corona
Posts: 12803 - Karma: 32,817
StaticLooks like they already made one,

Alcedo uses a GPS module and a magnetic compass for orientation on the avalanche site. While flying over the avalanche, alcedo constantly looks for avalanche transceiver signals. After detecting one, it localises the transceiver, flies to the corresponding position, and drops a smoke beacon.

http://www.esnc.info/index.php?anzeige=switzerland10.html


Cool. Well there you go.
Everyone who didn't think it could work: suck it.
Feb 11 2017 12:55PM
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