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Hawx Ultra XTD

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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
Hey NS,

We've made a fun new range of boots called the Hawx Ultra XTD ("extended"). If you have any questions about them, drop your queries here and I will do my best to answer them.

Here are some general details:



Das Range:


FAQs




Who is this boot for? Literally, the skier who wants one boot for almost all types of skiing. This boot is the ONLY touring-mode boot that flexes and feels like a real alpine boot, yet has 54° of cuff mobility, lightest-in-category weight (1.42kg), and fits better than anything else.


How is this possible? By combining the best of Hawx Ultra and the best of Backland. We use all of our alpine know-how to make sure it skis the best, and we use our touring know-how to make sure it tours the best.


Does skiing performance change because of this boot’s low weight? No – our main goal in making this boot was that it skied just like normal Hawx Ultra. Progressive and powerful, no compromise.


How do I set up the boot for touring? Unlike Backland, you will need to unbuckle the cuff and loosen the power strap in addition to disengaging the Free/Lock 2.0 mechanism. Position the buckle catcher into the hook on the tooth plate, and “close” the buckle. This will open the cuff enough to provide all 54° of cuff mobility.


What kind of sole is that? All models utilize an integrated WTR rubber sole. The sole is integrated (glued on) in order to save weight, provide the best traction, and reduce stand height. WTR is a type of Touring Norm (ISO 9523) that uses hard plastic AFDs in the toe & heel in order to provide a TÜV-approved safe release and 100% power transfer to the binding. It fits all pin-style bindings (including Kingpin), all WTR bindings, and any binding that accepts an ISO 9523 sole (Warden, Marker Duke, Marker Griffon ID, etc.). It does not fit standard alpine bindings (Z-series, X-series, Lithium, Mercury, etc.) nor Grip Walk bindings.


Why not just use a “normal” full rubber sole? While full rubber soles are great, they have their drawbacks. First, in an alpine-style binding (i.e. Warden), rubber soles will compress during skiing causing a loss in power transfer from the boot to the ski. This means your “130” flex boot isn’t behaving like a 130. Secondly, we wanted to ensure the safest release from the binding possible and this means adding plastic AFDs. Jamming your full rubber sole into an STH2 16 binding is a really good way to injure yourself.


Can I heat the Platinum/Gold liner on its own? Yes – if you don’t want to do Memory Fit, you can heat the liner on a hot-air blower for 15 minutes or in a Memory Fit oven for 3-4 minutes.


How do I wash the Platinum/Gold liner? As with Backland liners, hand wash only in 30°C/86°F water and air dry only.


What tech inserts are used in the boot? All Hawx Ultra XTD models use Dynafit Certified tech inserts.


What plastics are used in the boot? All lower shells are Grilamid, one of the lightest, strongest, and best skiing plastics available. The cuffs of the 130 & 110 W are also Grilamid, while the cuffs of the 120, 100, and 90W are PU.
Jan 26 2017 9:33AM
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Turnfarmer
Posts: 56 - Karma: 56
Thanks for this-
I discussed your exact question on this page. I have a pretty damn high instep (instep is a over 29, foot is size 27, ski a 26). It took additional boot work after the memory fit process to make work.

Can you expand on this?
How hard was this too achieve?
In traditional overlaps, I find the instep punch difficult.
Sep 15 2017 10:33AM
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auvgeek
Posts: 3 - Karma: 10
onenerdykidSizing for women = 22/22.5 - 27/27.5
True shell sizes and liners on all sizes
Are the 22.5 and 23.5 still being produced for the 110 W? Evo and other retailers keep pushing back the ship date for the 23.5 and the 22.5 has disappeared from Evo's site. It would be really disappointing if there was another women's touring boot that didn't come in women's sizes.
Sep 15 2017 11:52AM
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12snap
Posts: 1 - Karma: 10
My current alpine boots are the RT Ti 100 26.5 with the 95 mm last. I have a low volume heel and ankle but I don't like a really stiff boot so these have been great for me. Even better is that they are essentially a plug and play option. I put my custom footbeds in and go ski. I've never needed any work by a bootfitter and I never need to unbuckle on the lifts because their too tight. I haven't found any AT boots that are anywhere close to having a small enough last for me. I like the sound of these new Hawx Ultra XTD boots as a 1 boot option for both alpine and touring. How does the shell on the Hawx compare to the RT Ti? Will I need to size down to a 25.5 shell to get the fit I need? Would the 100 flex be comparable for both boots? Thanks.
Sep 15 2017 2:38PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
auvgeekAre the 22.5 and 23.5 still being produced for the 110 W? Evo and other retailers keep pushing back the ship date for the 23.5 and the 22.5 has disappeared from Evo's site. It would be really disappointing if there was another women's touring boot that didn't come in women's sizes.


Size 22 and 23 are definitely not canceled, not sure why Evo isn't showing the full size run, other than they are not offering it? Not sure why that would be the case.
Sep 18 2017 2:31AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
12snapMy current alpine boots are the RT Ti 100 26.5 with the 95 mm last. I have a low volume heel and ankle but I don't like a really stiff boot so these have been great for me. Even better is that they are essentially a plug and play option. I put my custom footbeds in and go ski. I've never needed any work by a bootfitter and I never need to unbuckle on the lifts because their too tight. I haven't found any AT boots that are anywhere close to having a small enough last for me. I like the sound of these new Hawx Ultra XTD boots as a 1 boot option for both alpine and touring. How does the shell on the Hawx compare to the RT Ti? Will I need to size down to a 25.5 shell to get the fit I need? Would the 100 flex be comparable for both boots? Thanks.


As a genuine World Cup race-room boot, Race Tech was very low volume, very narrow and unfortunately, there is no touring boot on the market that fits like a World Cup race-room boot... That category of boot is simply too narrow and too low volume for most feet. Hawx Ultra XTD will be wider (by 3mm) and have a higher instep by about the same, depending where you measure from. In order to make Hawx Ultra XTD work for your foot shape, you will most likely require a foam injection liner to fill up the space around your foot. This would ensure a more exact fit, along with a denser foam. In terms of flex, the XTD 100 would feel a little softer than the RT Ti 100 (world cup boots are always a little stiffer than their flex suggests, given the amount of material in the shell).
Sep 18 2017 2:38AM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,686
Intuition now makes a high volume pro tour liner. I'd recommend looking into adding one of those to the XTD 120. This should flex similar to a RT 100 WC, while retaining a good ROM for touring. Keep in mind it still won't have the precision of a plug boot, especially the RT (one of the most winning boot designs ever). This really isn't too big of a problem. Your touring skis and bindings aren't going to need the power of response of the RT.

Your foot will likely appreciate a slightly less precise fit for long up hills anyway.
Sep 18 2017 1:14PM
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Turnfarmer
Posts: 56 - Karma: 56
Do the cooling wraps do anything besides speeding up the fit process.
Sep 26 2017 5:39PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
TurnfarmerDo the cooling wraps do anything besides speeding up the fit process.


That's exactly what they do. When you stretch a ski boot (Memory Fit or even traditional pressing) you want to mold the plastic and then harden it so it stays in the shape you've made. You can let it cool at room temperature, but then you'll be waiting a long time and when you wait a long time, more things can change/go wrong.
Sep 27 2017 4:02AM
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patagonialuke
Posts: 1626 - Karma: 8,673
onenerdykidThat's exactly what they do. When you stretch a ski boot (Memory Fit or even traditional pressing) you want to mold the plastic and then harden it so it stays in the shape you've made. You can let it cool at room temperature, but then you'll be waiting a long time and when you wait a long time, more things can change/go wrong.


Sorry to hijack this thread, but I've always wondered if heat molding liners could take up more space in the boot (i.e. get a slightly tighter fit) or if it's only possible to use heat molding to make more room. I figure the foam expands while heated, but maybe just returns to it's original thickness once it's cooled, rather than staying expanded?

I know all heat molding materials / processes are different, but I've been curious about this as I have a pair of boots (Salomon QST Pro 130) who's shells and liners are moldable but I haven't felt the need. However, after a season of use, I think I could benefit from a bit of a tighter fit.
Sep 27 2017 2:21PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
patagonialukeSorry to hijack this thread, but I've always wondered if heat molding liners could take up more space in the boot (i.e. get a slightly tighter fit) or if it's only possible to use heat molding to make more room. I figure the foam expands while heated, but maybe just returns to it's original thickness once it's cooled, rather than staying expanded?

I know all heat molding materials / processes are different, but I've been curious about this as I have a pair of boots (Salomon QST Pro 130) who's shells and liners are moldable but I haven't felt the need. However, after a season of use, I think I could benefit from a bit of a tighter fit.


With the XTD 130 and 110W, we do exactly this. If you're like me and have a super skinny, low volume foot, the normal Memory Fit process is one of expansion and therefore not a viable option. So, these liners use special EVA foams (similar to Intuition) that expand when heated so if you heat just the liners in the oven for 3-5 minutes, they will create a tighter fit (especially in the ankle/heel) than what you get from the out-of-the-box fit.
Sep 27 2017 2:34PM
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patagonialuke
Posts: 1626 - Karma: 8,673
onenerdykidWith the XTD 130 and 110W, we do exactly this. If you're like me and have a super skinny, low volume foot, the normal Memory Fit process is one of expansion and therefore not a viable option. So, these liners use special EVA foams (similar to Intuition) that expand when heated so if you heat just the liners in the oven for 3-5 minutes, they will create a tighter fit (especially in the ankle/heel) than what you get from the out-of-the-box fit.


Sweet, thanks for clarifying that. Good to know that at least some foams / liners are designed with that in mind.
Sep 27 2017 2:36PM
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BC_Bandito
Posts: 6 - Karma: 13
Hey onnerdykid,

A lot of the hype around these boots is for the 130s and to a lesser extent the 120s. For those of us looking for a softer boot how does the 100 compare? By that i mean:
- what makes it the heaviest in the lineup if the 120 also has the PU cuff?
- can you compare / contrast the liners in greater details (mainly difference btw silver and gold) in terms of liner weight, amount of plastic, breathability, downhill performance?
- what's the practical difference between the 40 mm and 50 mm straps?
- what's the total cuff height of the boot and does it change between models?
- how does the cuff interact with the shell, in other words are there bumpers like on my Mercurys?

Really appreciate you starting this thread, more companies should follow suit, especially for things as finnicky and expensive as boots.
Sep 27 2017 3:51PM
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BC_Bandito
Posts: 6 - Karma: 13
LeeLauNot much to add in the touring aspect. Since I tour in the Vulcan without the tongue I threw that into the mix accordingly. The Vulcan (without tongue) is noticeably better (more free) in touring stride then the Atomic. The Atomic Hawk Extended is noticeably better in touring stride then the Salomon Mtn Lab. All three boots bootpack just fine. It's noticeable on lower angle skintracks in particular where one gets glide and kick with the Dynafit and Atomic but not the Mtn Lab. It's also noticeable on higher angle skintracks where I have to engage heel lifters more often with the Mtn Lab but not either the Hawk Extended or Vulcan


Hi Lee,
Can you expand on the touring difference btw the XTD and the Vulcans? I've had the Mercurys for years now and want to see how it stacks up. Are you just not able to get the forward lean in the XTD therefore having to bump up your heel risers sooner than with the Vulcan's or are there other factors at play here.
How easy/fiddly is it to pop the buckles and strap for touring? In other words, even if the 130s are lighter / on par with the Vulcan's, you'd rather walk in the Vulcans (tongues out)?

Cheers
Sep 27 2017 3:58PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
BC_BanditoHey onnerdykid,

A lot of the hype around these boots is for the 130s and to a lesser extent the 120s. For those of us looking for a softer boot how does the 100 compare? By that i mean:
- what makes it the heaviest in the lineup if the 120 also has the PU cuff?
- can you compare / contrast the liners in greater details (mainly difference btw silver and gold) in terms of liner weight, amount of plastic, breathability, downhill performance?
- what's the practical difference between the 40 mm and 50 mm straps?
- what's the total cuff height of the boot and does it change between models?
- how does the cuff interact with the shell, in other words are there bumpers like on my Mercurys?

Really appreciate you starting this thread, more companies should follow suit, especially for things as finnicky and expensive as boots.


Always stoked to help when I can! Since the start of this thread, we have changed the construction of the 120 liner (Blister has updated their review of the 120 to reflect this, make sure to check it out). This change makes the 120 and 100 very comparable in weight, with the main differences being liner construction and flex. The Gold liner of the 120 simply has more heat moldable zones (ankle & forefoot) compared to the Silver (ankle only). Same basic fit and skiing performance, just a more customizable fit in the Gold version.

The 50mm strap will provide a snugger fit at the top of the cuff/liner, creating a more seamless transition from leg, to liner, to cuff.

Effective cuff height (from boot board to top of cuff) is the same between Ultra and Ultra XTD and there is no change in cuff height between the models.

The cuff interacts with the shell almost identically to normal Ultra. Front part of the cuff engages the lower shell just like Ultra and the rear behaves in a similar fashion as well given how tight the tolerances are in the ski/walk mechanism. The result is a truly progressive, non-linear flex without the need for bumpers (there's a graph in this thread somewhere that shows our actual robot flex test data, also on Wildsnow.com with a more in-depth look into our flex testing).
Sep 27 2017 4:21PM
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LeeLau
Posts: 104 - Karma: 633
BC_BanditoHi Lee,
Can you expand on the touring difference btw the XTD and the Vulcans? I've had the Mercurys for years now and want to see how it stacks up. Are you just not able to get the forward lean in the XTD therefore having to bump up your heel risers sooner than with the Vulcan's or are there other factors at play here.
How easy/fiddly is it to pop the buckles and strap for touring? In other words, even if the 130s are lighter / on par with the Vulcan's, you'd rather walk in the Vulcans (tongues out)?

Cheers


When in the Hawx in ski mode I have to do up the buckles moderately tight (three buckles fairly tight; the toe buckle is almost totally loose) to have a good feel for the downhill. When transitioning to uphill mode I loosen the buckles off (ie they all sit on the loosest part of the ladder). If I didn't do that the Hawx would still tour OK but I wouldn't get the full stride and range of motion. I also loosen off the power strap

What this means is that the Hawx will tour quite well for stride and ROM compared to Vulcan/Mercury if you flip the buckles open and also loosen the buckles off on the ladder. It would tour just OK (say as well as the old Titan) if the buckles were left in the same ladder position as in ski mode but simply flipped open. To be clear IMO it still wouldn't tour as well as Vulcan/Mercury even if Hawx was loosened off completely in terms of rearward ROM (the shell numbers show that already) but forward ROM is pretty comparable.

What this means is that transitions would be a bit more fiddly with Hawx than in Vulcan.

For me, the fit is the key. Both Vulcan and Hawx are So Darn Good that you would have to have nitpicking differences to decide between one and the other. I think if I was to microparse details and get all GapicSki the Hawx skis better but Vulcan tours better; but the differences are insignificant. Which is why again I think the fit is the key.

Hope this helps
Sep 27 2017 11:39PM
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wilcox510
Posts: 10 - Karma: 12
Could you use the Fischer vacuum molding process with these boots to get the shell actually tighter in places? I don't really know if the Fischer vaccum deal works that way, but it seems like it could...
Sep 28 2017 3:34PM
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.[sanhedrin].
Posts: 1652 - Karma: 932
@onenerdykid - can you give me an idea of the availibilty of this boot? I’ve seen it in person just once and I’ve been hearing rumblings that it’s hard for retailers to keep them in stock and get restock. Thanks man!
Sep 28 2017 10:29PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
.[sanhedrin].@onenerdykid - can you give me an idea of the availibilty of this boot? I’ve seen it in person just once and I’ve been hearing rumblings that it’s hard for retailers to keep them in stock and get restock. Thanks man!


What retailers have in stores now is the "first wave" of boots to land in the US/Canada. More will come, but mainly to those retailers that paid attention to the writing on the wall and have a 2nd and/or 3rd ship planned. Those shops that sprinkled in a single size run without a backup shipment will have a hard time getting more in. The demand for the boots is ultimately going to be higher than the availability, so finding them mid-season will be challenging.
Sep 29 2017 2:28AM
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profa_212
Posts: 8902 - Karma: 35,901
Got my 130s in....so stoked on them. You killed it on this boot nerdy.

Only issue I have currently is the instep is pinching on my left foot (I have a weird bone spur and it happens on most boots)....if I'm not mistaken the memory fit should go a good ways to making it bearable....will report back when I go get them molded.

Out of the box review....walk mode is crazy good. Much better than any 130 flexing, downhill orientated touring boot I've had my foot in. Weight is also very nice. Very very light. Flex is pretty close to a 130....havent had it on snow bit from living room flexing I am definitely not disappointed at all. If you were to throw a stiffer liner and a booster on it it would be a very very powerful boot. Liner is very light...but pretty dang good for a touring liner.

I am really excited to get these things on snow. I am really amped to get on some shit and actually have power in my boots too.

**This post was edited on Oct 15th 2017 at 4:41:49pm
Oct 14 2017 4:23PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
Profahoben_212Got my 130s in....so stoked on them. You killed it on this boot nerdy.

Only issue I have currently is the instep is pinching on my left foot (I have a weird bone spur and it happens on most boots)....if I'm not mistaken the memory fit should go a good ways to making it bearable....will report back when I go get them molded.

Out of the box review....walk mode is crazy good. Much better than any 130 flexing, downhill orientated touring boot I've had my foot in. Weight is also very nice. Very very light. Flex is pretty close to a 130....havent had it on snow bit from living room flexing I am definitely not disappointed at all. If you were to throw a stiffer liner and a booster on it it would be a very very powerful boot. Liner is very light...but pretty dang good for a touring liner.

I am really excited to get these things on snow. I am really amped to get on some shit and actually have power in my boots too.

**This post was edited on Oct 15th 2017 at 4:41:49pm


Thanks man! Glad you are stoked on them. Looking forward to hearing how they fit after the heat mold and how they feel on snow for you.
Oct 16 2017 7:32AM
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LeeLau
Posts: 104 - Karma: 633
Review of the boot there now fyi https://www.newschoolers.com/news/read/Atomic-Hawx-Ultra-XTD-Alpine-touring-boot-2017-8
Oct 18 2017 3:04PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
LeeLauReview of the boot there now fyi https://www.newschoolers.com/news/read/Atomic-Hawx-Ultra-XTD-Alpine-touring-boot-2017-8


Well done, Lee!
Oct 18 2017 4:56PM
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LeeLau
Posts: 104 - Karma: 633
onenerdykidWell done, Lee!


And to you for going so far and above to give us all such good information
Oct 18 2017 6:19PM
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Turnfarmer
Posts: 56 - Karma: 56
Any news on the 13 degree flip chips?
Oct 19 2017 2:21PM
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skiernor_
Posts: 10 - Karma: 10
I understand the Hawk Ultra XTD offers no cuff alignment. Will the Memory Fit enable enough adjustments to handle serious bow-leggedness? Both shell and liner?
For reference, I am currently skiing Maestrale RS with max canting. I have also added some padding between the shell and liner to get a few extra degrees.
Nov 6 2017 3:37AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
skiernor_I understand the Hawk Ultra XTD offers no cuff alignment. Will the Memory Fit enable enough adjustments to handle serious bow-leggedness? Both shell and liner?
For reference, I am currently skiing Maestrale RS with max canting. I have also added some padding between the shell and liner to get a few extra degrees.


You will get quite a bit of cuff alignment through the Memory Fit process for sure. And if you pad the liner before heating the shells, it will move even more.
Nov 6 2017 4:43AM
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wilcox510
Posts: 10 - Karma: 12
This may seem like a small silly thing, but when trying these on in the shop (with Intuition liners) , in tour mode the cuff buckles didn't seem to really want to stay open. They kept trying to close, which limited the cuff range of motion. I really like the cuff buckle on my Salomon MTN Labs which sort of locks in the open position to prevent this. Anyone know of some similar sized buckles that lock open like the MTN lab buckles that you could swap these out with (the MTN Lab buckles are way too big)?
Nov 8 2017 3:11PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
wilcox510This may seem like a small silly thing, but when trying these on in the shop (with Intuition liners) , in tour mode the cuff buckles didn't seem to really want to stay open. They kept trying to close, which limited the cuff range of motion. I really like the cuff buckle on my Salomon MTN Labs which sort of locks in the open position to prevent this. Anyone know of some similar sized buckles that lock open like the MTN lab buckles that you could swap these out with (the MTN Lab buckles are way too big)?


If these buckles were to lock open, they would stick out off the cuff and be prone to damage or getting caught on something etc. To get full range of motion in the cuff, place the wire catcher into the little silver holder on the toothplate and let the buckle close. This will let the cuff be open enough to get all 54° of travel and it creates a super clean side portion of the cuff, preventing the buckle lever from sticking out and potentially getting damaged.
Nov 8 2017 3:33PM
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n3vrast
Posts: 29 - Karma: 30
Hi Nerdy,

So I couldnt resist any more and got myself some XTD 130s, its probably the best fitting boot I have ever tried. Finally a touring boot with a snug shin/ancle area. The boot is a bit narrow for my foot though, so I was wondering if you give me some memory fit tips for my wide feets.

I have a regular size nordic foot, but its widest way back near the heal, this creates pressure points on the side of my foot no matter how wide the boot says it is (even my bucket salomons) because the heel is snug (as it should be) but the boot widens out too far forward for my foot. So my question is, does the memory fit prosess do a good enough job by its own or should I put on an extra sock during the prosess or tape some foam around the pressure area? I have 10 years of bootfitting frustration with multiple boots behind me so I want to be sure I get it correct the first time.

Also Ive noticed that almost everybody (even you on insta) replaces the velcro strap with a booster strap or something similar, why is not the boot shipping with that as a stock? And at last a more generall question, why has touring liners so thin tounges? This one is pretty decent, but in general I just feel like a thin liner with a thicker more supportive tounge would help alot, I know the backland was upgraded so I guess its a known phenomenom. I see alot of atheletes replacing the liners aswell. I think I will replace the liners for my intuition pros for resort days just to get that even pressure on the shin.

Anyway Im pretty stoked on the boots, they are currently my indoor slippers as Im praying for snow. If you have any more boot tips in generall feel free to share ;)
Nov 11 2017 3:46AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
n3vrastHi Nerdy,

So I couldnt resist any more and got myself some XTD 130s, its probably the best fitting boot I have ever tried. Finally a touring boot with a snug shin/ancle area. The boot is a bit narrow for my foot though, so I was wondering if you give me some memory fit tips for my wide feets.

I have a regular size nordic foot, but its widest way back near the heal, this creates pressure points on the side of my foot no matter how wide the boot says it is (even my bucket salomons) because the heel is snug (as it should be) but the boot widens out too far forward for my foot. So my question is, does the memory fit prosess do a good enough job by its own or should I put on an extra sock during the prosess or tape some foam around the pressure area? I have 10 years of bootfitting frustration with multiple boots behind me so I want to be sure I get it correct the first time.

Also Ive noticed that almost everybody (even you on insta) replaces the velcro strap with a booster strap or something similar, why is not the boot shipping with that as a stock? And at last a more generall question, why has touring liners so thin tounges? This one is pretty decent, but in general I just feel like a thin liner with a thicker more supportive tounge would help alot, I know the backland was upgraded so I guess its a known phenomenom. I see alot of atheletes replacing the liners aswell. I think I will replace the liners for my intuition pros for resort days just to get that even pressure on the shin.

Anyway Im pretty stoked on the boots, they are currently my indoor slippers as Im praying for snow. If you have any more boot tips in generall feel free to share ;)


Hey N3vrast, thanks for taking the time to write some great feedback. I'll hit your points one by one.

Every dealer that can perform Memory Fit should have special pad kits that help push the plastic a bit further . Black pads are normal hardness (normal "wide" result) and white pads are firmer and compress less (widest result). I would start with the black pads and go from there. If you need more room, the process can be done again without any negatives.

Power straps are a very tricky thing to get right (for the markets). I personally love buckle-style cam straps and put them on everything. Always have, always will. But... whenever we put these kinds of straps on our boots (aside from Race) we get tons of negative feedback that people can't figure it out and dealers are swapping them out for normal velcro straps. Sounds insane, but it happens a ton. Enough so that we (currently) only put velcro straps on our non-race boots. However, if I keep getting this feedback that people want buckle straps, I am more than happy to spec them on the boots. Time will tell on this one.

The liner that is in the 130 is designed to be awesome at skiing and awesome at touring. In that quest for unicorn perfection, something usually has to give. When the tongue becomes too stiff, it drastically hinders forward mobility. So, we think we've struck a good balance between flexible enough for touring but supportive enough for skiing. And like the power strap situation, if we get more feedback that it needs to get beefed up we will for sure do it.

We know the competition is super strong in this segment (and it will obviously only get stronger) so we will need to constantly improve things as time goes on. Rest assured, we won't be asleep at the wheel ;)
Nov 11 2017 10:05AM
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hemlockjibber8
Posts: 5977 - Karma: 3,545
Matt, what are your thoughts on volume reduction with memory fit. I've had many discussions about this but never with someone who would have actually developed a boot.

Also, how temperature sensitive is the memory fit plastic now? The original Salomons using memory for would turn into over cooked noodles on warm days (more so than PU boots). Thanks!
Nov 11 2017 12:15PM
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profa_212
Posts: 8902 - Karma: 35,901
hemlockjibber8Matt, what are your thoughts on volume reduction with memory fit. I've had many discussions about this but never with someone who would have actually developed a boot.

Also, how temperature sensitive is the memory fit plastic now? The original Salomons using memory for would turn into over cooked noodles on warm days (more so than PU boots). Thanks!


I can tell you from wearing them around my house that they are far less temperature sensitive than my Nordica gpx 130s.
Nov 11 2017 12:55PM
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n3vrast
Posts: 29 - Karma: 30
onenerdykidHey N3vrast, thanks for taking the time to write some great feedback. I'll hit your points one by one.

[...]
We know the competition is super strong in this segment (and it will obviously only get stronger) so we will need to constantly improve things as time goes on. Rest assured, we won't be asleep at the wheel ;)


Thanks for the quick reply!
White pads, ok I will remember that, I`ll bring my own pads just in case.
About the velcro straps, how is that even possible? Buckle straps are far superior, I guess one option is to do what Fischer did, with velcro on all the models except the top of the line one. Example, XTD100-120: velcro, XTD130-buckle straps for the weekend warrior dentist. My take is, if you mean you have the skills to handle a 130 boot you should know how to use a buckle strap. Also its less hasle with the buckle when touring. Maybe just put bucklestraps on the touring boots?

Also, for the tounge I get the compromise, but maybe have a liner with swappable tounges? Like the intuition pro tour. And regarding liners, at what temperature do you cook the liners in the oven? I pressume its not 250 C :P
Nov 11 2017 12:55PM
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cydwhit
Posts: 5070 - Karma: 43,008
Man, just got back from another great day in the 120. I LOVE the beefier liner. Yeah, it doesn't walk as well, but it gives me the confidence to huck my meat just as stupidly as I do inbounds. Stoked to compare to the regular Hawx Ultra (not XTD) soon but right now this is the closest thing to skiing an inbounds boot I've found. And it walks so well, and the Memory Fit did wonders for my hobbit feet. I'll have a full update on Blister soon, but for now, holy crap, I love this thing. I'll get around to swapping a booster strap on eventually too, think that will be a solid addition. And I still need to play with the flip chip a little, but I can't wait to see this thing continue to progress and improve. Now if only Atomic had a binding that was as cool as this boot.........;)
Nov 11 2017 2:57PM
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.[sanhedrin].
Posts: 1652 - Karma: 932
Cy - isn’t it safe to say that the weight penalty for going with the thicker liner in the 120 can easily be made back up by swapping it with an Intuition?
Nov 11 2017 5:09PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
hemlockjibber8Matt, what are your thoughts on volume reduction with memory fit. I've had many discussions about this but never with someone who would have actually developed a boot.

Also, how temperature sensitive is the memory fit plastic now? The original Salomons using memory for would turn into over cooked noodles on warm days (more so than PU boots). Thanks!


The plastic we use in the 130 is a special type of Grilamid that has a stiffening factor of 2 (compared to normal PU that has a stiffening factor of 5!) so it very stable in both cold and warm temps.

The PUs we use in the cuffs of the 120 & 100 have a stiffening factor of 1.2, which is the best you can get. That's also the same PU we use in the normal Ultra series of boots. We call this type of PU "True Flex PU".
Nov 12 2017 7:19AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
n3vrastAnd regarding liners, at what temperature do you cook the liners in the oven? I pressume its not 250 C :P


If you will be heating the shells, you don't need to heat the liners separately. The heat from the plastic will transfer into the liner and that is enough.
Nov 12 2017 7:21AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
cydwhitMan, just got back from another great day in the 120. I LOVE the beefier liner. Yeah, it doesn't walk as well, but it gives me the confidence to huck my meat just as stupidly as I do inbounds. Stoked to compare to the regular Hawx Ultra (not XTD) soon but right now this is the closest thing to skiing an inbounds boot I've found. And it walks so well, and the Memory Fit did wonders for my hobbit feet. I'll have a full update on Blister soon, but for now, holy crap, I love this thing. I'll get around to swapping a booster strap on eventually too, think that will be a solid addition. And I still need to play with the flip chip a little, but I can't wait to see this thing continue to progress and improve. Now if only Atomic had a binding that was as cool as this boot.........;)


Yeah dude! That's sick, super stoked you are digging the boot.

If only there was a binding coming out to accompany this... hmmm.... ;)
Nov 12 2017 7:22AM
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SFBv420.0
Posts: 2539 - Karma: 3,124
onenerdykidYeah dude! That's sick, super stoked you are digging the boot.

If only there was a binding coming out to accompany this... hmmm.... ;)

one with a nice numerical din settings that a simple turn of a screwdriver adjusts ?
or one with chick, dude, and extreme din settings and extra parts that require swapping?
thanks for the boot ya crushed it
it'll be on my feet this season cause dynafit aint quite gettin the north american market any more
Nov 12 2017 9:46AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
SFBv420.0one with a nice numerical din settings that a simple turn of a screwdriver adjusts ?
or one with chick, dude, and extreme din settings and extra parts that require swapping?
thanks for the boot ya crushed it
it'll be on my feet this season cause dynafit aint quite gettin the north american market any more


Thanks dude, glad you dig it!

New binder will have nice numerical settings that can be adjusted with a screw driver.
Nov 12 2017 10:16AM
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n3vrast
Posts: 29 - Karma: 30
onenerdykidYeah dude! That's sick, super stoked you are digging the boot.

If only there was a binding coming out to accompany this... hmmm.... ;)


Any comments Nerdy? ;)
Nov 12 2017 10:17AM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
n3vrastAny comments Nerdy? ;)


All in good time, promise.

I'll probably create a thread for it, as it will be a big thing.
Nov 12 2017 11:16AM
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kid-kapow
Posts: 197 - Karma: 1,042
this thread decided me to not swap the liners on my beast carbons to intuition, but rather swap the boots to some hawx xtd 130s, though from all the rave perhaps the 120s are better choice (?). I dunno, i will see what my preferred dealer has in stock :) Too bad i didn't mount my looks to work at the 292 sole length instead of the 298 they were mounted for. Thanks for the awesome info though out this thread! Also, I got some salomon mtn binders for my mom the other day, so Atomic designs are getting quite a bit of love from me recently. Good job designing both!

about the binding - funny, i thought nobody was going to rise to the challenge and try to outdo the Tecton, as i understood that the the market expansion primarily was in the light weight category. But with now both Dynafit (rumors) and Atomic (seemingly confirmed) coming out with competing designs... Well, it is a good time to be a freetourer or whatever you want to call it. I have a hard time seeing how you can improve on the very impressive design that is the tecton, but i am looking forward to any and all info!

Keep the good work up.

**This post was edited on Nov 13th 2017 at 7:32:00pm
Nov 13 2017 7:27PM
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onenerdykid
Posts: 6657 - Karma: 10,898
kid-kapowthis thread decided me to not swap the liners on my beast carbons to intuition, but rather swap the boots to some hawx xtd 130s, though from all the rave perhaps the 120s are better choice (?). I dunno, i will see what my preferred dealer has in stock :) Too bad i didn't mount my looks to work at the 292 sole length instead of the 298 they were mounted for. Thanks for the awesome info though out this thread! Also, I got some salomon mtn binders for my mom the other day, so Atomic designs are getting quite a bit of love from me recently. Good job designing both!

about the binding - funny, i thought nobody was going to rise to the challenge and try to outdo the Tecton, as i understood that the the market expansion primarily was in the light weight category. But with now both Dynafit (rumors) and Atomic (seemingly confirmed) coming out with competing designs... Well, it is a good time to be a freetourer or whatever you want to call it. I have a hard time seeing how you can improve on the very impressive design that is the tecton, but i am looking forward to any and all info!

Keep the good work up.

**This post was edited on Nov 13th 2017 at 7:32:00pm


Thanks! If you're going to be spending a lot of time touring/hiking and skiing the resort, the 130 will be the right option for you. It just tours so much better. But, if you're spending the majority of time just using lifts, the 120 will probably be better for you.

Concerning the Tecton, challenge accepted. Until we spill the beans on the new binding, just think of any shortcomings the Kingpin and Tecton may have...
Nov 14 2017 8:10AM
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kid-kapow
Posts: 197 - Karma: 1,042
onenerdykidThanks! If you're going to be spending a lot of time touring/hiking and skiing the resort, the 130 will be the right option for you. It just tours so much better. But, if you're spending the majority of time just using lifts, the 120 will probably be better for you.

Concerning the Tecton, challenge accepted. Until we spill the beans on the new binding, just think of any shortcomings the Kingpin and Tecton may have...


Thanks for the feedback!

Yeah, the initial plan was to have just the one boot to work with multiple setups, but then i overthought the issue and decided getting tectons for all my skis was too expensive - it was more affordable to get some new boots and some alpine bindings. I then proceeded to effectively double my quiver - half with look14s, half the rest with tectons (stupidly buying as any tectons as i would have if i just got them in the first place) - since I decided that trying some light weight carbon skis would be fun as well. In my current quiver the 130 thus perhaps makes more (perfect?) sense together with the rc4s, and the proclines for expeditionary/mixed use. The down side is of course having to lug a ton of gear around, which was kind of my aim to avoid - one that failed massively.

The only thing that can be improved further with the tecton - that i can think of anyway and if one wants to be superduper demanding - is even more elastic travel in the rear or a knee binding kind of safety function that actually works - and yes, lower price, they cost a lot. Other than that i must admit to being really impressed with the tectons thus far. The front is massively improved over last years blacks. The weight is more than low enough for the use imo. The tecton is a really impressive piece of kit.

The kingpin's main flaw as i see it is the front binding and its lack of elasticity and alpine binding like release. The rear binding seemingly works well, but is a bit on the heavy side and the shifting between modes is seemingly on the fiddly side (though to be fair, such seems to be the case with tectons as well, though as easy transitions as with the vipecs was perhaps never in the cards).

i am looking forward to hearing more about you new binders. And thanks again for sharing all the info - truly awesome!
Nov 14 2017 9:37AM
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robnow
Posts: 34 - Karma: 27
Seems to me the way to go would be to get the 120 for the cheaper cost and the better downhill liner, and then throw in an Intuition Tour liner to drop the weight. Having tried both the 120 and 130 on with the same 120 liners, in the shop there is a noticeable difference in flex between the two, although I found the 120 to be stiffer than the Lange Freetour 130s (again, in shop). Either way, they seem like they are going to be great boots, although the small opening of the lower shell is a real PAIN to get in and out of.
Nov 17 2017 4:24PM
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kid-kapow
Posts: 197 - Karma: 1,042
robnowSeems to me the way to go would be to get the 120 for the cheaper cost and the better downhill liner, and then throw in an Intuition Tour liner to drop the weight. Having tried both the 120 and 130 on with the same 120 liners, in the shop there is a noticeable difference in flex between the two, although I found the 120 to be stiffer than the Lange Freetour 130s (again, in shop). Either way, they seem like they are going to be great boots, although the small opening of the lower shell is a real PAIN to get in and out of.

hm, so is the flex in the shells as the rating would suggest, or what did you experience? Pain to get in and out of you say? That is not good news. That is one of two reasons i am getting the hawx over the beasts, cold toes being the other. Oh well, worth a try. Thanks for the info!
Nov 17 2017 7:18PM
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NigelStein
Posts: 466 - Karma: 455
It's a lot easier to put them on if you put the liner on first and then put your foot and the liner into the boot.
Nov 17 2017 7:42PM
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kid-kapow
Posts: 197 - Karma: 1,042
NigelSteinIt's a lot easier to put them on if you put the liner on first and then put your foot and the liner into the boot.


yeah, same story as the beasts, but in the end it wears the liners up real quick - at least it does in the heel.
Nov 17 2017 8:19PM
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robnow
Posts: 34 - Karma: 27
kid-kapowhm, so is the flex in the shells as the rating would suggest, or what did you experience? Pain to get in and out of you say? That is not good news. That is one of two reasons i am getting the hawx over the beasts, cold toes being the other. Oh well, worth a try. Thanks for the info!

I'm actually having a really hard time deciding between the two. I'm hoping Nerdy can jump in and say if others are finding much difference in "skiability" between the 120 and 130 USING THE MORE DH FOCUSED 120 LINER. Again in the shop to me the 130 may feel a bit too 'rigid' whereas the 120 has a nicer flex to it (but how much due to the PU and will it actually be that much softer when skiing).

Nerdy, would you automatically recommend to me as a 190lbs, athletic, advanced skier (50/50 resort/long tour days) to go:
a) 130 and buy an additional 120 liner or equivalent for resort days...or
b) 120 and buy an Intuition tour liner for bc days
Biggest ski I'm driving will be Billygoats w/ Kingpins but wondering too how they might stack up against something like a Wrenegade/Cochise resort setup.

**This post was edited on Nov 19th 2017 at 1:15:08pm
Nov 19 2017 10:43AM
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