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Iraqi Elections

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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
Was anybody else suprised about how big of a response the Iraqi people gave by the turnout at the elections? I thought it was cool. Maybe Bush wasnt lying all those times when he was saying that the iraqi people really were in favor of what we were doing there...
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Jan 31 2005 3:06PM
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Ski-hobo
Posts: 7121 - Karma: 15
I was. And anyone who says otherwise is lying. I remeber see a bunch of polls on cnn, msnbc, ect. Asking Americans about voter turnout in Iraq. Most people said it would be low.


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Jan 31 2005 3:11PM
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PowderCanuck
Posts: 2626 - Karma: 10
giving a country democracy is definately a good thing. But forcing a lifestyle (even if you think it's better) on people isn't so hot. And the proof can be seen with all the 'rebels' running around. I think Bush could have done things in a better way, rather than just attacking a country for all the wrong reasons.



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Jan 31 2005 3:14PM
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PowderCanuck
Posts: 2626 - Karma: 10
but yea it was kinda cool. Still, I hold my above opinion



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Jan 31 2005 3:15PM
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Itsbackfliptime
Posts: 18901 - Karma: 75
people returned to vote even after polling stations were blown up. Thats impressive.

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Jan 31 2005 3:18PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
AP- 'do you hear that, do you hear the bombs?' asked Hassan Jawad. a 33 year old election worker at lebanon high school. 'we dont care. Do you understand? We dont care'

Now THAT takes balls my friends. Must mean something to 'em. Its amazing what you are willing to do for freedom once you have lived under a brutal dictator for several decades.
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Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but in the end, it doesnt get you anywhere. Write that down.
Jan 31 2005 3:29PM
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Apple
Posts: 7906 - Karma: 33
to the majority of iraquies this is progress, to america its a new way of colonization. Bringing their ideas and belifes to other people who dont share the same thing. It will be intresting to see what kind of a relations ship the states and iraq will have in the future.
Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery
please pardon the cacography

'I hope you get hit by a neon'
'just make sure all the Jewish kids have rides'
'naahhmahhnahhhahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'
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Jan 31 2005 3:33PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
where is the line between 'new colonization' and freeing a suppressed people from a dictator?
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Jan 31 2005 3:40PM
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ski8990
Posts: 5961 - Karma: 19
it is good but its not the reason we went in there in the first place. remember those WMDs? I dont think that another countries freedom is worth all of the deaths that have come from this war



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Jan 31 2005 4:02PM
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Graves
Posts: 460 - Karma: 16
There isn't one Utah, at least not in the eyes of a Liberal. Anything Bush does is 'colonization,' if this were a Liberal president it would be a joyous celebration of democracy and freedom.

But since we all know Bush is a 'fascist Nazi,' it should be quite apparent that this is just another attempt for him to take over the world. And it all began when 'he' attacked the WTC Towers.
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Jan 31 2005 4:02PM
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PowderCanuck
Posts: 2626 - Karma: 10
^sigh...
No one said anything like that here. In fact, there was NO Bush or Republican bashing at all on this thread, and yet you still feel threatened because people were trying to reason things out. Don't get so defensive. That ruins any possible constructive conversation and it all becomes one big argument.



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Jan 31 2005 4:41PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
the thing is that idealism used to be a trait that was purely liberal, in fact this is where the republicans got thier 'cold heart' reputation. I thought that the dems would be happy to establish a democratic society within the middle east. Why have you all changed your minds all of a sudden?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but in the end, it doesnt get you anywhere. Write that down.
Jan 31 2005 4:42PM
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ski8990
Posts: 5961 - Karma: 19
I think we changed our minds when way over a thousand of US troops and over 100,000 iraqi civilians died



Jesus saves!

Gretzky gets the rebound. he feeds the puck to LeClair. he shoots! he scores! the crowd goes wild
Jan 31 2005 4:43PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
so how else are we going to achieve democracy in the middle east? Ask nicely?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but in the end, it doesnt get you anywhere. Write that down.
Jan 31 2005 4:45PM
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LostCarKeys
Posts: 2553 - Karma: 20
I thought that it was good...





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Jan 31 2005 4:49PM
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KWagner
Posts: 1471 - Karma: 19
This election truely showed the dedication on the part of the Iraqi people and their willingness to do their part in making THIER democracy work. I was thrilled to see this and i think it was a clear message to the rest of the world how the majority of Iraqis feel about our presence there. We are making real progress.
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Jan 31 2005 5:05PM
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Apple
Posts: 7906 - Karma: 33
out of curiosity, how is the iraq democratic system set up to work?

Also, i did not know that the numbers of people who died from this war were so high. I havnt heard any death totals.
Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery
please pardon the cacography

'I hope you get hit by a neon'
'just make sure all the Jewish kids have rides'
'naahhmahhnahhhahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'
'My penis is like a hockey stick, its always got game if you know how to handle it'
'Go down to the bottom bunk and finish it yourself'
Jan 31 2005 5:09PM
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sunvalleyskibum
Posts: 1223 - Karma: 11
this is great that the Iraqi people came out in the numbers that they did. its unfortunate that most of there elected leaders will be facing about 10 car bomb attacks a day. they better having a good chain of succession worked out.



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Jan 31 2005 5:12PM
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KWagner
Posts: 1471 - Karma: 19
As far as i know. They just voted to elect a coucil of many members. that coucil is going to draft a constitution for the country. that council will vote on a president and 2 vice presidents. they will elect a prime minister. after the constitution is drafted the Iraqis will vote yes or no. If they vote yes, then there will be another set of elections in december. please correct me if this is at all incorrect...
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Jan 31 2005 5:13PM
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PowderCanuck
Posts: 2626 - Karma: 10
My one question in all of this though is 'Why Iraq?'. When there are so many countries that could use democracy, why Iraq? And why was the attack on Iraq so soon after 9/11? In fact, when the war on Iraq first started, all I ever heard was WMD. Giving democracy to Iraq was hardly mentioned at the time. The original intent for attacking Iraq was not to give them a new leadership. It was to 'neutralise' the 'threat' known as Saddam. Who of course wasn't a threat at all (to the world that is).
That's the biggest thing that I don't like. The reason for invading Iraq was all wrong. Don't get me wrong, democracy is a good thing, but that wasn't the reason Bush attacked in the first place.
Maybe I'm a suspicious bastard, but I don't trust him. If someone gives me a good reason why he went in, then maybe I'll give him credit. But right now, it just seems to me like he's diverting attention from
(a) the fact that there is no WMD
(b) the fact that there is alot of oil in Iraq
(c) the fact that Bush didn't really have a good reason to attack. He just had a bone to pick with Saddam (finish daddy's work)

And maybe it'll all work out nice and happy. But I still don't like it.



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Jan 31 2005 5:29PM
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ski8990
Posts: 5961 - Karma: 19
seriously guys. I dont even remember democracy being mentioned in bushes reasons for invading iraq. it was always about wmds and connections to 9-11



Jesus saves!

Gretzky gets the rebound. he feeds the puck to LeClair. he shoots! he scores! the crowd goes wild
Jan 31 2005 5:43PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
^True. But once we were already there and found out that the intelligence that we got was crappy and false, we further inspected of the country and found rape rooms, gas chambers, mass graves and the such, I think that it provided a worthwhile goal to help millions of oppresed people. Dont you think?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but in the end, it doesnt get you anywhere. Write that down.
Jan 31 2005 9:03PM
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Kevo
Posts: 2374 - Karma: 136
Yeah so democracy is a new idea in the middle east? Whoever said that needs to shut their fucking mouth. Bringing free elections BACK to a country that used to have free elections 50 years ago is in no way colonization. Shut the fuck up. You are now on my shit list with that ausie mother fucker.
Jan 31 2005 11:33PM
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freeze_pooter
Posts: 3296 - Karma: 16
i think its a great step for the dems wish for peace in the world



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Jan 31 2005 11:36PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
^^who are you referring to?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but in the end, it doesnt get you anywhere. Write that down.
Feb 1 2005 1:29AM
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Kevo
Posts: 2374 - Karma: 136
Apple
Feb 1 2005 3:14AM
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Apple
Posts: 7906 - Karma: 33
im sorry, i dont recall saying 'democracy is a new idea for the middle east' i know its not. Secondly, i find it odd how after bush went into this country that did need a change of leadership he dicided that his own way was the best. I dont recall a vote from the people to see what kind of government they wanted, Bush just assumed that the people of Iraq wanted democracy, so thats what he gave them. That is colonization in its simplist form. Takeing your ideas which are better than theirs, and enforcing them on the other people. What would you call colonization?
Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery
please pardon the cacography

'I hope you get hit by a neon'
'just make sure all the Jewish kids have rides'
'naahhmahhnahhhahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'
'My penis is like a hockey stick, its always got game if you know how to handle it'
'Go down to the bottom bunk and finish it yourself'
Feb 1 2005 12:30PM
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Kevo
Posts: 2374 - Karma: 136
First of all, the central idea of colonization is the creation of new colonies. Hence the word COLONIzation. The U.S. isn't setting up New Florida over there. Are we setting up missions and imposing Christianity and kicking the native people out and taking their land? NO. Secondly, if the Iraqi people had a vote to decide on the type of government that they want, the very act of voting would democratic. Every free person in the world agrees that Democracy is the best form of government and that it protects all people regardless of if they are in the majority or not. Are you telling me that if you gave people the right to vote they would chose to not have a say and put themselves back under a dictatorship? NO FUCKING WAY.
Feb 1 2005 2:21PM
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bigJ
Posts: 3148 - Karma: 10
'Secondly, i find it odd how after bush went into this country that did need a change of leadership he dicided that his own way was the best.'

Didn't need a change of leadership? I'm sure they miss the rape rooms and mass executions. I think its fair to say that Saddam need to be ousted and that he did not provide prime leadership for the Iraqi people.



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Feb 1 2005 2:27PM
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bigJ
Posts: 3148 - Karma: 10
oh shit, my bad, I need to start reading the posts, it is too early to drink



Politicaly Active Since 1992

'Soberity is not an option.'

Drivin that Train
Feb 1 2005 2:29PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
hahaha. Priceless
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but in the end, it doesnt get you anywhere. Write that down.
Feb 1 2005 4:21PM
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flippintricker
Posts: 2408 - Karma: 9
ski8990, i love how you compare the deaths of 1000 soldiers to a hundred times that amount of iraqis. that number pales in comparison to the iraqis, or were their lives just not as valuable?



To understand mankind, we must first understand the word. We can break the word down into two sub-words, 'mank' and 'ind'.What these two words mean is a mystery, just like mankind itself.
Feb 1 2005 9:12PM
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TheClap.
Posts: 21671 - Karma: 4,157
that is our soldiers but how many civilians did we kill and was saddam going to live forever because he looked ready to conk if you ask me i support the soldiers but not the Pres and Senate who sent them there
Feb 1 2005 9:15PM
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Nico
Posts: 1194 - Karma: 10
i think its good that the iiraquis finally get to vote. but it is not freedom if you impose it.
Feb 1 2005 9:35PM
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hellmut
Posts: 1460 - Karma: 29
^its a start



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Feb 1 2005 10:10PM
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Ski-hobo
Posts: 7121 - Karma: 15
they would of had election anyway even if we didn't insist


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Feb 1 2005 10:12PM
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KWagner
Posts: 1471 - Karma: 19
'its not freedom if you impose it'

did we force millions of the people to go to the polls and risk their lives to vote. i think not. they wanted to vote so bad that they risked their OWN lives. just so they could live in a democracy
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Feb 2 2005 8:56AM
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Apple
Posts: 7906 - Karma: 33
Kevo, yes, colonization is the creation of new colonies, but how do you think it starts? almost never in history did great brittan just send in an army and kill everyone. Whats the point of a new peice of land if you dont have the people to work it? then you cant get the resourse or anything. How it happens is that great brittan would send ahead a few preists to build monistaries to share christian values and beliefs with the 'uncivilized' people. They would change their mind set so that it was more like their own. That way when they did come into the land, the people woule be accepting of their new culture and no one would have to be killed. In this case, i see a comparitive line between the people sent in to teach christianity and a democratic government. That is all i was saying. I think its intresting how it worked and i would like to see how the Iraq, USA relationship will be in 20 years time.
Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery
please pardon the cacography

'I hope you get hit by a neon'
'just make sure all the Jewish kids have rides'
'naahhmahhnahhhahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'
'My penis is like a hockey stick, its always got game if you know how to handle it'
'Go down to the bottom bunk and finish it yourself'
Feb 2 2005 10:28AM
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srwinnsuco
Posts: 2943 - Karma: 1,472
LESSONS OF HISTORY?....Tom Cleaver of Redress Press sends along this clip from the New York Times. The date is September 3, 1967:

U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote
Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror

by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times

WASHINGTON, Sept. 3-- United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting.

According to reports from Saigon, 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong.

....A successful election has long been seen as the keystone in President Johnson's policy of encouraging the growth of constitutional processes in South Vietnam. The election was the culmination of a constitutional development that began in January, 1966, to which President Johnson gave his personal commitment when he met Premier Ky and General Thieu, the chief of state, in Honolulu in February.

The purpose of the voting was to give legitimacy to the Saigon Government, which has been founded only on coups and power plays since November, 1963, when President Ngo Dinh Deim was overthrown by a military junta.

I know, I know, this doesn't mean Iraq is Vietnam. But you have to admit, this story is pretty spooky.
Feb 2 2005 10:33AM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
Even though that story does have some spooky parallels, its important to remember that there are some very fundamental differences in the situation that we are facing and the one back in Vietnam.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but in the end, it doesnt get you anywhere. Write that down.
Feb 2 2005 11:56AM
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weenox
Posts: 1568 - Karma: 19
congrats guys, this is the most reasonable, well thought out thread on this subject i have seen.

im gonna go ahead and agree that while Bush's initial reason for going into Iraq was a dud, that was just the frosting on the cake. Iraq had been a problem for a long time, and something definately needed to be done about it. How many of you think, honestly, that Iraq was at no time associated with terrorists? use some common sense on that one. Remember the Gulf War? Whether or not Iraq was a threat to the US directly is irrelevent. Iraq WAS a threat to the world, as proven by its invasion of Kuwait in the early 90's. It was just a matter of time before Saddam did something like that again.
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Feb 2 2005 1:01PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
^so true. Nobody seems to remember that sadam was shooting at our planes everyday for the past 9 years.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but in the end, it doesnt get you anywhere. Write that down.
Feb 2 2005 1:03PM
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Kevo
Posts: 2374 - Karma: 136
Apple, congrats on putting up an educated argument. I think that we agree on many points, and I appreciate the fact that you can see past the whole 'what about the wmd's' that many people spit out without thinking. Before I get too far off of the subject at hand, I will be the first to admit that Bush shouldn't have used WMD's to get the public behind the war in Iraq. He should have said that Sadam was a threat to security in the middle east, that Sadam has gone so far to use WMD's in the past (Against Iran and the Kurds), and that in the interest of freedom we should intervene and remove Sadam from power. Anyway, I would like to think that the U.S. isn't imposing democracy on anyone. The people of Iraq could have chosen not to vote if they didn't want to. If the overwhelming majority of Iraqis didn't want democracy, they could have stopped it. The people of Iraq aren't dancing in the streets for nothing. Also, I would like to remind you that we aren't teaching democracy to the people of Iraq- we are brining it back.
Feb 2 2005 2:29PM
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Apple
Posts: 7906 - Karma: 33
yes, and obviously it is much to early to see if it is a colonization effort or if it is simply a guesture of good faith. I was just entertaining the possibility that it could be a more modern way of sharing values and 'civilizing' people. Thats why im intrested to see where the iraq / US relationship will be in 20 years.

Thats the thing with debating current events, you only ever get a biased representaion of the facts, and even then the source of the facts may be inacurate or clouded with human emotion. You can never say for certian what the intents behind an internation action are, you can only speculate to a degree of certianty.

The colonization idea only came to me because of my Science fiction class at university. We were discussing War of the Worlds by H.G. Wells and talking alot about victorian culture and values, in piticular colonization, they did afterall rule the world. I just thought that it was an intresting viewpoint which i hadnt really heard entertained befor and thought was worth some discussion. the parralles, to me, were to many to just disregard the thought, so i decided to share. hooray for learning.
Like a virgin on promnight!

-Thom Savery
please pardon the cacography

'I hope you get hit by a neon'
'just make sure all the Jewish kids have rides'
'naahhmahhnahhhahhh ... i mean ... the weekend of monday'
'My penis is like a hockey stick, its always got game if you know how to handle it'
'Go down to the bottom bunk and finish it yourself'
Feb 2 2005 3:11PM
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ski8990
Posts: 5961 - Karma: 19
hey flippin tricker I wasnt comparing the two numbers you dumb shit. I was saying how many people have died because of the invasion of iraq. In no place was I comparing the two you dumbo. I simply was saying that a whole lot of people have been killed because of bush's decision to invade iraq. no more, no less.



Jesus saves!

Gretzky gets the rebound. he feeds the puck to LeClair. he shoots! he scores! the crowd goes wild
Feb 2 2005 5:36PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
Dont go soft on your opinion, apple. If that is really what you believe (even though I wholeheartedly disagree) stand up for it and dont puss out saying stuff like 'I was just simply entertaining the possibility...' once somebody has a counter-opinion. Thats not how you sounded in your first post.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but in the end, it doesnt get you anywhere. Write that down.
Feb 2 2005 7:07PM
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Utahpowderskier
Posts: 1336 - Karma: 14
For those who watched the state of the union address, the part where the woman from Iraq and the mother who had lost her marine son in Iraq hugging was an awesome symbol of what we are doing there and what its all about.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but in the end, it doesnt get you anywhere. Write that down.
Feb 2 2005 11:27PM
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sunvalleyskibum
Posts: 1223 - Karma: 11
these Iraq elections are a crass example of the globalization process. there is something seriously wrong with deciding what is best for someone, and then violently imposing that decision on a nation of people. democracy can work great, or it can tear apart a nation. iraq is very divided between the Sunnis and Shiites, and forcing them to unite under a monoethnic government may be a mistake. however, if the minority south of Iraq was to secede, it could cause serious problems for American petrochemical companies looking to export oil from the resouce-rich region. so the government does have a vested interest in iraq staying united. globalization at its sickest.



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Feb 9 2005 4:53PM
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