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Disabling Up/Down voting in threads

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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22714 - Karma: 76,758
We just disabled the ability to up/down vote specific posts within a thread.

For now, its an experiment - but if people like it we'll leave it that way.

Up/Down voting in threads was created to give us the data necessary to rank/sort/filter posts based on quality. These views were never finished, and the culture around voting became a signal of whether you agree with the post or not vs. how good it was. That was never the intended purpose... if you want to agree with someone, post up and state your opinion.


The plans for different thread sorting options and filtering were brought up with the community in various discussions and every time they were met with bitter opposition.

Add those two items together and we just made the call to disable them to see what happens.

**This thread was edited on Aug 4th 2016 at 12:37:43pm
POLL
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Votes:

Take care when editing a poll; Options should be similar to maintain vote integrity.

More options will be added automatically as you type. You must supply a question and at least two options. No HTML is allowed.

Jul 14 2016 12:35PM
31 72
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Rennis_Deynolds
Posts: 2739 - Karma: 19,059
eheath52 people voted....

the 33 that voted yes I can guarantee joined within the last two years and are the people being the loudest, while the 13 that said no are the few members that joined over 3 years ago that are the very, very small amount that even saw this thread, who have also posted about it.

IMO the poll is useless without 200-300 votes.


Someone might have already made one of these points but here:

Basically you're saying that you're believing what you want to, regardless of what the people actually want. You're also saying that just because a member is new doesn't mean his/her opinion is a vaild one? So what if a member is new? Without a steady flow of new members newschoolers would die off very fast.
Sep 7 2016 4:07PM
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eheath
Posts: 61780 - Karma: 124,906
Dennis_ReynoldsSomeone might have already made one of these points but here:

Basically you're saying that you're believing what you want to, regardless of what the people actually want. You're also saying that just because a member is new doesn't mean his/her opinion is a vaild one? So what if a member is new? Without a steady flow of new members newschoolers would die off very fast.


What do you mean "what people want"? 50ish replied on a poll is not "everyone" and there are only a handful of people actually complaining, then another group of people complaining about people complaining.

Anyways, it doesnt matter, things are going to change, we just have other stuff to work on first.
Sep 7 2016 4:12PM
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arnie_grape
Posts: 3455 - Karma: 11,748
Dennis_ReynoldsYou're also saying that just because a member is new doesn't mean his/her opinion is a vaild one? So what if a member is new? .


would you let a person who just started skiing park design a park for your resort?
Sep 7 2016 5:35PM
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Mingg
Posts: 14001 - Karma: 49,831
GORILLAWALLACEwould you let a person who just started skiing park design a park for your resort?


Why ask for input(make a thread/add a poll) if you weren't gonna take it seriously/use it?

But to answer your question, I wouldn't let them design the whole park but I would 100% take their requests into consideration. Someone experienced in park wants one thing and the beginners want another. There's a way to look at both perspectives and build something that works for both.
Sep 7 2016 6:00PM
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rsvp
Posts: 1516 - Karma: 2,611
please god do not bring back voting
Sep 7 2016 7:11PM
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corona
Posts: 12818 - Karma: 32,995
pointing out that the oldest replies on the first page of SG/NSG are 1 or 2 days old right now compared to 4 days old before voting was taken away. I would doubt it being September would be the entire reason why.
Sep 7 2016 8:51PM
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JuliusBurton
Posts: 80 - Karma: 334
How the fuck do I turn off notifications for this post? Or at least get everyone to shut the fuck up!

OK I get it votes are not coming back...
(haven't red the last like 3 pages but I assume the argument has moved nowhere.)
Sep 7 2016 9:54PM
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eheath
Posts: 61780 - Karma: 124,906
JuliusBurtonHow the fuck do I turn off notifications for this post? Or at least get everyone to shut the fuck up!

OK I get it votes are not coming back...
(haven't red the last like 3 pages but I assume the argument has moved nowhere.)


You just have to delete the thread from your my threads page.
Sep 7 2016 10:28PM
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JuliusBurton
Posts: 80 - Karma: 334
Thank you.
Sep 7 2016 10:45PM
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Rennis_Deynolds
Posts: 2739 - Karma: 19,059
GORILLAWALLACEwould you let a person who just started skiing park design a park for your resort?


no...

But this is a website, not a park.
Sep 7 2016 11:16PM
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dbchili
Posts: 2555 - Karma: 1,658
VinnieFpointing out that the oldest replies on the first page of SG/NSG are 1 or 2 days old right now compared to 4 days old before voting was taken away. I would doubt it being September would be the entire reason why.


Yeah but voting was disabled in mid July. That's like the dry heat of NS summer.

The fall is usually the busiest season for NS I find bc everyone is looking forward to skiing but is still forced to sit at home waiting for snow. Things usually start to pick up in sept so I'd say that's why
Sep 9 2016 11:04AM
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clorox
Posts: 1728 - Karma: 4,863
pls add votes back. its what makes newschoolers newschoolers
Sep 18 2016 10:31PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22714 - Karma: 76,758
FKS_HEEL_PIECEpls add votes back. its what makes newschoolers newschoolers


We're going to put them back, we're just going to slightly modify how they work.
Sep 23 2016 12:45PM
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clorox
Posts: 1728 - Karma: 4,863
Mr.BishopWe're going to put them back, we're just going to slightly modify how they work.


Any consideration on being able to view a thread in order by votes?
Sep 23 2016 1:17PM
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eheath
Posts: 61780 - Karma: 124,906
FKS_HEEL_PIECEAny consideration on being able to view a thread in order by votes?


That will never happen, sorry.
Sep 23 2016 1:26PM
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Laurent.
Posts: 10056 - Karma: 25,311
eheathThat will never happen, sorry.


Stop crushing my dreams.
Sep 23 2016 2:39PM
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dbchili
Posts: 2555 - Karma: 1,658
Mr.BishopWe're going to put them back, we're just going to slightly modify how they work.


Sep 24 2016 4:28PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22714 - Karma: 76,758
FKS_HEEL_PIECEAny consideration on being able to view a thread in order by votes?


eheathThat will never happen, sorry.


I can't understand why people are so resistant to this.

It would be so awesome. Just like the comments.
Sep 26 2016 10:15AM
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corona
Posts: 12818 - Karma: 32,995
Mr.BishopI can't understand why people are so resistant to this.

It would be so awesome. Just like the comments.


because the first half page of comments get all the upvotes and stay at the top whether they're quality posts or not then the rest of the thread doesn't get read and people stop posting as much unless they can be one of the first posters in the thread.
Sep 26 2016 4:25PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22714 - Karma: 76,758
VinnieFbecause the first half page of comments get all the upvotes and stay at the top whether they're quality posts or not then the rest of the thread doesn't get read and people stop posting as much unless they can be one of the first posters in the thread.


You change the pagination.
Sep 26 2016 5:14PM
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Turd.Ferguson
Posts: 1437 - Karma: 2,713
VinnieFbecause the first half page of comments get all the upvotes and stay at the top whether they're quality posts or not then the rest of the thread doesn't get read and people stop posting as much unless they can be one of the first posters in the thread.


this, i've actually enjoyed the lack of a voting system because it actually makes people respond to shit they don't like and also respond to shit they do like which keeps the thread going.
Sep 27 2016 8:56AM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22714 - Karma: 76,758
The referenced post has been removed.


That's why I'm saying we tweak it. I think we can get the best of both worlds.
Sep 27 2016 5:07PM
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fujarome
Posts: 8630 - Karma: 1,561
If you can't organize a thread by up votes, what exactly is their general purpose?

I mean, they're usually a pretty good way to see what the general consensus of a thread is, or a quick way to adopt a funny/helpful post, but you still have to scroll your way down to it.
Sep 27 2016 11:30PM
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dbchili
Posts: 2555 - Karma: 1,658
fujaromeIf you can't organize a thread by up votes, what exactly is their general purpose?

I mean, they're usually a pretty good way to see what the general consensus of a thread is, or a quick way to adopt a funny/helpful post, but you still have to scroll your way down to it.


no difference really, some threads you just have to do the scroll because the thread itself is meaningless if not in chronological order (ex Slvsh, people talk about specific games right after they happen)
Sep 28 2016 7:43AM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22714 - Karma: 76,758
fujaromeIf you can't organize a thread by up votes, what exactly is their general purpose?

I mean, they're usually a pretty good way to see what the general consensus of a thread is, or a quick way to adopt a funny/helpful post, but you still have to scroll your way down to it.


There isn't a purpose unless you can do this.

dbchilino difference really, some threads you just have to do the scroll because the thread itself is meaningless if not in chronological order (ex Slvsh, people talk about specific games right after they happen)


Threading fixes this.
Sep 28 2016 7:32PM
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fujarome
Posts: 8630 - Karma: 1,561
Mr.BishopThere isn't a purpose unless you can do this.


My only concern about this is that while ranking by up votes works for say, reddit, where there can be tens of thousands of active users simultaneously, NS just doesn't have enough numbers to really fill out a thread.

I'm just thinking the thread order would go:

Op
Top voted
Reply
Reply

Then no one
Sep 28 2016 9:49PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22714 - Karma: 76,758
fujaromeMy only concern about this is that while ranking by up votes works for say, reddit, where there can be tens of thousands of active users simultaneously, NS just doesn't have enough numbers to really fill out a thread.

I'm just thinking the thread order would go:

Op
Top voted
Reply
Reply

Then no one


I mean it'd be an option if we ever did it.

Where it would be the most helpful is if we had something where you could ask a question (say in Gear talk) and have replies threaded and sorted by top rated answer. In that case, it'd be so much better.
Sep 29 2016 8:37AM
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fujarome
Posts: 8630 - Karma: 1,561
Mr.BishopI mean it'd be an option if we ever did it.

Where it would be the most helpful is if we had something where you could ask a question (say in Gear talk) and have replies threaded and sorted by top rated answer. In that case, it'd be so much better.



No doubt, for any of the question threads that have a relatively definitive/clearly best answer it would be awesome.

So much of these forums operates like a chatroom where half the fun is seeing whatever nonsense has been posted
Sep 29 2016 9:03AM
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milk_man
Posts: 5252 - Karma: 5,973
I can see why you got rid of it. Threads would kind of become who can make up the "wittiest" post. It was kinda becoming a joke. People probably take threads more seriously without voting, and are maybe more likely to reply because they don't have to worry about getting 25 downvotes for no reason. However....I think it was kind of fun and would maybe like to see it back. Either way I'm happy.
Oct 1 2016 1:16PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22714 - Karma: 76,758
milk_manI can see why you got rid of it. Threads would kind of become who can make up the "wittiest" post. It was kinda becoming a joke. People probably take threads more seriously without voting, and are maybe more likely to reply because they don't have to worry about getting 25 downvotes for no reason. However....I think it was kind of fun and would maybe like to see it back. Either way I'm happy.


The referenced post has been removed.


So both of you have seen an increase in the quality of conversation due to a lack of votes?
Oct 3 2016 9:59AM
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milk_man
Posts: 5252 - Karma: 5,973
Mr.BishopSo both of you have seen an increase in the quality of conversation due to a lack of votes?


I believe so. And I absolutely love it. I'll be happy either way
Oct 3 2016 10:31AM
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Turd.Ferguson
Posts: 1437 - Karma: 2,713
Mr.BishopSo both of you have seen an increase in the quality of conversation due to a lack of votes?


the voting system promotes trolling and I think thats how any voting system would end up. Without voting people actually have to say mildly intelligent things or people are gonna rip em for it.
Oct 3 2016 2:37PM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 9509 - Karma: 63,297
Mr.BishopThere isn't a purpose unless you can do this.


i disagree. i mean i totally understand the downsides of voting. but i think it's a decent tool in the forum. i think we should leave the posts in the order they were posted, but if one dude goes "oh mammoth sucks ass" and another dude goes "no it's a good mtn for X, Y, X reasons" in most cases, the better post will be voted up more and hopefully the reader can get a clue from that.

there are plenty of cases where that doesnt work as intended, but still at least in that case someone can reply with a good post. without the votes, lots of really good (or just funny) posts dont get any love or recognition, and i think that ever so slightly reduces the amount of participation

idk im biased, i hoped for post votes for a long time and was hyped when they came along. you guys will decide what you think is best tho. keep up the good work
Oct 3 2016 3:10PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22714 - Karma: 76,758
milk_manI believe so. And I absolutely love it. I'll be happy either way


Turd.Fergusonthe voting system promotes trolling and I think thats how any voting system would end up. Without voting people actually have to say mildly intelligent things or people are gonna rip em for it.


Titsandwich11i disagree. i mean i totally understand the downsides of voting. but i think it's a decent tool in the forum. i think we should leave the posts in the order they were posted, but if one dude goes "oh mammoth sucks ass" and another dude goes "no it's a good mtn for X, Y, X reasons" in most cases, the better post will be voted up more and hopefully the reader can get a clue from that.

there are plenty of cases where that doesnt work as intended, but still at least in that case someone can reply with a good post. without the votes, lots of really good (or just funny) posts dont get any love or recognition, and i think that ever so slightly reduces the amount of participation

idk im biased, i hoped for post votes for a long time and was hyped when they came along. you guys will decide what you think is best tho. keep up the good work


To all three of you:

My thoughts basically are that what we need to do is bring back a form of voting, but have that only linked to a member's Karma. Right now (and the way it was long before we had post voting) is that you rated a person from 1-10 straight from their karma score. You changed that rating as your opinion of the person changed.

Instead, we implement a +k / -k type system to replace post voting. You score the user based on each post they make, thusly also ensuring that the Karma score is much more of a representation of that member's actions.

What do you think about that?
Oct 3 2016 3:27PM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 9509 - Karma: 63,297
Mr.BishopTo all three of you:

My thoughts basically are that what we need to do is bring back a form of voting, but have that only linked to a member's Karma. Right now (and the way it was long before we had post voting) is that you rated a person from 1-10 straight from their karma score. You changed that rating as your opinion of the person changed.

Instead, we implement a +k / -k type system to replace post voting. You score the user based on each post they make, thusly also ensuring that the Karma score is much more of a representation of that member's actions.

What do you think about that?


oh well see i think the karma thing is..well, not useless, but doesnt really address the issue that i think voting does.

ive been on here off and on since 2001. i know that plenty of people have been here forever, have huge post and karma counts, have the donator symbol, are knowledgeable......and still post utter bullshit nonsense half the time that doesnt offer any good info at all. the reality is that people post good and bad stuff and each post being voted on makes more sense to me

my 2 cents :)
Oct 3 2016 3:35PM
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-Colton
Posts: 272 - Karma: 2,525
Any news on this a month later ? (i missed the whole thing in the summer due to summer time stuff)
Nov 3 2016 11:05AM
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The.Fish
Posts: 2269 - Karma: 4,997
Mr.BishopWe're going to put them back, we're just going to slightly modify how they work.


so when are they gonna be back?
Nov 26 2016 11:05PM
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Rennis_Deynolds
Posts: 2739 - Karma: 19,059
Mr.BishopWe're going to put them back, we're just going to slightly modify how they work.


didn't read this before i made that thread, i love you
Nov 27 2016 4:03PM
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eheath
Posts: 61780 - Karma: 124,906
Here you go, enjoy!
Jan 10 2017 4:37PM
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Mingg
Posts: 14001 - Karma: 49,831
dear lord here we go
Jan 10 2017 4:57PM
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treebeard
Posts: 3717 - Karma: 2,673
RIP thoughtful discussion

but seriously, this will be a good metric for seeing exactly how much upvotes affect conversation. we've had a good portion of the season functioning as a control group without them, so bring on the change
Jan 10 2017 5:05PM
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SammyDubz
Posts: 2168 - Karma: 7,222
Whyyyyyyyy
Jan 10 2017 5:35PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22714 - Karma: 76,758
treebeardRIP thoughtful discussion

but seriously, this will be a good metric for seeing exactly how much upvotes affect conversation. we've had a good portion of the season functioning as a control group without them, so bring on the change


Exactly. This whole thing started from the conversation of whether up/down votes were the harbinger of doom for conversation. We'll have to see if there's an effect and then look at it from there.

From all the discussions it seems like things are pretty split. Some people love it, some people hate it.

Maybe we should even run an experiment of removing downvotes entirely... they seem to be the thing that everyone bitches about so much.
Jan 10 2017 6:14PM
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Mingg
Posts: 14001 - Karma: 49,831
treebeardRIP thoughtful discussion

but seriously, this will be a good metric for seeing exactly how much upvotes affect conversation. we've had a good portion of the season functioning as a control group without them, so bring on the change


To start off, I have become rather indifferent on voting. The past however many months I have barely noticed a difference. I don't think my posts have changed much because of the lack of voting and I haven't noticed a difference in anyone else's post quality.

I don't think adding them back will ruin conversation. I also don't think they will necessarily make conversations themselves any better. You will still be able to have good conversations with people on things that interest you. All it takes is you starting a new thread or by participating positively in one. Share your ideas in a not shitty way that creates dialogue and people will respond positively, I guarantee it.
Jan 10 2017 6:42PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22714 - Karma: 76,758
MinggTo start off, I have become rather indifferent on voting. The past however many months I have barely noticed a difference. I don't think my posts have changed much because of the lack of voting and I haven't noticed a difference in anyone else's post quality.

I don't think adding them back will ruin conversation. I also don't think they will necessarily make conversations themselves any better. You will still be able to have good conversations with people on things that interest you. All it takes is you starting a new thread or by participating positively in one. Share your ideas in a not shitty way that creates dialogue and people will respond positively, I guarantee it.


Yeah that is kind of where I'm at with this. The voting really doesn't have much effect on conversation as far as I can tell. Its a separate kind of thing for people... those who want to have discussion will do so.

The only thing I have gotten out of this though is that we've taken a massively deep dive into the voting system, and it really seems that a lot of people use the downvoting system to disagree vs. rate the quality of a post. It seems that upvoting is far less so - people will upvote and post.... but love silently downvoting to show their disagreement.

I'm pretty close to saying we should just abandon downvoting entirely. Too many silent angry people out there who just throw a downvote to either disagree or fuck with someone else's post. It doesn't affect the ranking algorithms, but it sure seems to hurt people's feelings when they get downvoted.
Jan 16 2017 11:44AM
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Randy_Quench
Posts: 5447 - Karma: 4,343
Mr.BishopI'm pretty close to saying we should just abandon downvoting entirely. Too many silent angry people out there who just throw a downvote to either disagree or fuck with someone else's post. It doesn't affect the ranking algorithms, but it sure seems to hurt people's feelings when they get downvoted.


For christ's sake please don't follow the pussification garbage trend. Someone's feelings were hurt because they made a shitty post on the internet? GOOD. Maybe they will learn not to make shit posts.

Mingg was likely the most downvoted member on the site and she just said herself that she is "indifferent" about voting. Not even the most "bullied" (for lack of a better term/to keep continuity of your post's reference to feelings) user has a definite opinion on downvotes.
Jan 16 2017 12:18PM
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Mr.Bishop
Posts: 22714 - Karma: 76,758
Randy_QuenchFor christ's sake please don't follow the pussification garbage trend. Someone's feelings were hurt because they made a shitty post on the internet? GOOD. Maybe they will learn not to make shit posts.

Mingg was likely the most downvoted member on the site and she just said herself that she is "indifferent" about voting. Not even the most "bullied" (for lack of a better term/to keep continuity of your post's reference to feelings) user has a definite opinion on downvotes.


Really the problem with downvotes is that it's supposed to mark a lack of quality, but it seems to be rarely used for this.

Besides... shouldn't we be wanting more pussy on the site?
Jan 16 2017 1:16PM
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