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Wait why are symmetrical skis a thing?

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a_burger
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 20,856
Everyone says symmetrical skis are the best for switch performance, but wouldn't this be wrong?


assuming your body weight is neutrally positioned, shouldn't the best be a normal ski mounted at center, that way when your switch your feet would be uphill of the center of the sidecut like on carving skis?


idk maybe if you take into account ski flex how far forward/back you are leaning they make sense but thinking about it the traditional skis I've had carved switch better then the symmetrical ones.


what about a symmetrical ski with 2 different sidecuts, 1 on each side of the bindings?
Jun 4 2016 2:08PM
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skidemon22
Posts: 4452 - Karma: 2,005
the only time symmetrical skis work well is if you have them center mounted (or at least close to center mounted). and they only work well in the park where you may want to carve (switch) into a jump or on a a switch landing
Jun 4 2016 6:14PM
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a_burger
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 20,856
skidemon22the only time symmetrical skis work well is if you have them center mounted (or at least close to center mounted). and they only work well in the park where you may want to carve (switch) into a jump or on a a switch landing


but then wouldn't you have to have a completely neutral stance to keep your weight over the sidecut?


this is all theoretical of course and you people could probably carve on a 2x4 if they really wanted too but its kind of weird to think about
Jun 4 2016 6:29PM
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skidemon22
Posts: 4452 - Karma: 2,005
w_skierbut then wouldn't you have to have a completely neutral stance to keep your weight over the sidecut?


this is all theoretical of course and you people could probably carve on a 2x4 if they really wanted too but its kind of weird to think about


I get what you are saying, but you have to keep in mind that half of it is marketing... You can ski switch on normal, shitty volkl carving skis without twin tips.

that said, there is some technical benefit to the symmetrical shape. take my park skis, for example, the volkl step... I have them center mounted and they are symmetrical. so when I am skiing switch, they do ok, but a little better than my directional shaped volkl kinks that i had the year before.

you're right that they offer little benefit, and that benefit will only really be seen if you are A) a good park skier and hit a lot of rails (balance) and hit jumps/ landings switch and can carve switch AND B) mounting your bindings at the ski center.

it does not matter about your stance as much, because your body weight is connected to the ski where ever the binding is mounted
Jun 4 2016 8:02PM
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.lencon
Posts: 6753 - Karma: 17,191
yeah symmetrical skis aren't really needed. even look at the new Magnus by ON3P. They're making it asymmetric and it will ski switch better.

OP you are right, you don't have the same stance, weight, Etc when you ski switch as when you ski forward. some people enjoy symmetrical skis for even swing weight but I don't see the point for carving at all really.
Jun 5 2016 1:34PM
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K-Dot.
Posts: 3757 - Karma: 7,964
The difference between truly symmetrical skis and barely non symmetrical skis is really impossible to even notice. The closer to symmetrical a ski gets, the easier it will be to ski switch, logically. The thing is, it's really inversely exponential when it comes to approaching symmetry in a ski it seems.

Most park skis and pow skis that are freestyle and are not truly symmetrical are very close if you look at the specs.
Like mentioned above, the magnus next year is technically asymmetrical but if you look at the specs, its only 4mm different from tip to tail. That means each side of the tail is 2mm in. That is such a small change that to me the ski is essentially still "symmetrical" in design. Of course a line must be drawn somewhere so labeling it as symmetrical is wrong, but it doesn't change that the actual fact that it will ski very symmetrically.

You'll find that in most freestyle skis, the difference in tip and tail width is less than 1 cm difference. While they are not truly symmetrical by definition, the flex patterns and overall designs often are built around the ski feeling the same switch as it does forward. How a ski performs switch has too many factors based on the exact ski model to just say that overall a symmetrical ski is useless. Some skis perform better one way or another, and especially for different uses.

Many people prefer a truly symmetrical or near symmetrical pow ski for switch landings in powder. All of these have
5mm or less of difference in tip and tail:

Icelantic Gypsy
K2 Powabunga
4frnt YLE
Surface Balance
Moment Ghost Train
Revision Subtraction
Line Magnum Opus

All of these skis are designed to be skied forward as easily as switch hence the design. Truly asymmetrical skis (skis with more than 1 cm of difference) are much harder to ski switch in powder.

All in all, symmetrical and near symmetrical skis have a place and use in the ski world. I don't see them going anywhere anytime soon.
Jun 5 2016 3:50PM
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cobra_commander
Posts: 16909 - Karma: 4,681
The real reason there are symmetrical skis is a good chunk of you are stupid and it was a great marketing strategy that a lot of folks fell for.

You don't weight your skis the exact opposite of when you ski switch as when you ski normally. You will still have more weight on your tips skiing and landing switch than you will have when riding forward. The idea that a symetrical sidecut is advantageous for skiing switch is kinda silly. Simplistic, but wrong. The best park ski ever made (Line Chronic) isn't symetrical. Some companies are figuring out how to weight a park ski so even non symmetrical park skis have a close to even swing weight when mounted near center (0-2.5cm back is pretty standard).
Jun 5 2016 4:37PM
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K-Dot.
Posts: 3757 - Karma: 7,964
cobra_commanderThe idea that a symetrical sidecut is advantageous for skiing switch is kinda silly. Simplistic, but wrong. The best park ski ever made (Line Chronic) isn't symetrical.


The chronic has 4mm difference between tip and tail. Refer to my post, symmetrical skis have a purpose.
Jun 5 2016 5:59PM
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.lencon
Posts: 6753 - Karma: 17,191
K-Dot.The chronic has 4mm difference between tip and tail. Refer to my post, symmetrical skis have a purpose.


Which is?

Haha you say true asymmetrical skis need at least 1cm of difference between tip and tail? Last time I checked asymmetrical means not symmetric.

Also even though the YLES are the same width tip/tail, they are not symmetrical.
Jun 5 2016 6:54PM
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K-Dot.
Posts: 3757 - Karma: 7,964
S.J.W.Which is?

Haha you say true asymmetrical skis need at least 1cm of difference between tip and tail? Last time I checked asymmetrical means not symmetric.

Also even though the YLES are the same width tip/tail, they are not symmetrical.


Clearly my point sailed over your head. Yes, by the nitty gritty millimeter they are not truly symmetrical but do you realize how small 2mm on each side is?

My point is that they are much closer to being a symmetrical ski than being directional. Go ski a directional ski switch and tell me if its easier than a symmetrical or near symmetrical ski.

Also I'm aware that the YLEs aren't symmetrical in flex pattern, etc. we're merely discussing dimensions.
Jun 5 2016 8:26PM
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.lencon
Posts: 6753 - Karma: 17,191
K-Dot.Clearly my point sailed over your head. Yes, by the nitty gritty millimeter they are not truly symmetrical but do you realize how small 2mm on each side is?

My point is that they are much closer to being a symmetrical ski than being directional. Go ski a directional ski switch and tell me if its easier than a symmetrical or near symmetrical ski.

Also I'm aware that the YLEs aren't symmetrical in flex pattern, etc. we're merely discussing dimensions.


Don't get all upset just because your company makes multiple symmetrical skis.

We're just having a nice convo
Jun 5 2016 9:08PM
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K-Dot.
Posts: 3757 - Karma: 7,964
S.J.W.Don't get all upset just because your company makes multiple symmetrical skis.

We're just having a nice convo


My company?

Haha what company is that? Broke college kid skis inc?
Jun 5 2016 9:38PM
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.lencon
Posts: 6753 - Karma: 17,191
K-Dot.My company?

Haha what company is that? Broke college kid skis inc?


I thought you were someone else, my apologies.

I know realize you're that one kid from the drop with ramen noodles for hair.
Jun 5 2016 9:51PM
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K-Dot.
Posts: 3757 - Karma: 7,964
S.J.W.I thought you were someone else, my apologies.

I know realize you're that one kid from the drop with ramen noodles for hair.


*chopped macaroni ass haircut

But yeah now you know that every post I make isn't credible and is probably just trolling
Jun 5 2016 10:22PM
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.lencon
Posts: 6753 - Karma: 17,191
K-Dot.*chopped macaroni ass haircut

But yeah now you know that every post I make isn't credible and is probably just trolling


lol yeah, btw I'm not trying to bash symmetrical skis, my buddy has them and loves them. they're just not for me and I don't like them and if you think about it they don't really have any advantage, even if the differences are super small.
Jun 5 2016 10:44PM
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Saga.
Posts: 3812 - Karma: 45,337
Might not be too relevant but there are a few snowboard companies that make asymetrical snowboards. They don't differ as much tip to tail like the skis you're referring to but the sidecut radius of the edge. The boards are true twins, you can ride it either goofy or regular, and 1 edge (the heel edge) has a larger circumference. There is some science behind it saying how a turn is initiated and completed on your heel edge is a lot different than your toe edge.

It is interesting to see companies try to use actual science to make products better instead of just using gimmicks.
Jun 6 2016 10:07AM
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SofaKingSick
Posts: 9395 - Karma: 61,994
cobra_commanderThe best park ski ever made (Line Chronic)




that said, i agree with everything else you said
Jun 6 2016 11:21AM
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