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Why aren't there more symmetrical skis?

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zerospinskier
Posts: 4867 - Karma: 350
To preface, I started mounting my skis at center 10 years ago for the balanced feel. I've learned a lot about this, and it seems some manufacturers still don't understand it.

When symmetrical skis were first introduced, I was always led to believe I needed a directional all mountain ski to get the best all mountain performance. I would then just mount it at center for my preference (and lose a little of that designed performance), but still be on the best possible ski. I would have to lean back on my heels to really get power from my carve, but I thought that was the best I could get.

Symmetrical skis have always been sold as park specific, made for "skiing backwards," and suck for anything powerful on the mountain. I eventually gave some a chance and realized this is completely NOT the case. I was actually able to power through a turn keeping my weight over the balls of my feet like a properly mounted ski. I don't know why they are sold as such park specific skis when I have so much more edge control all over the mountain. It has nothing to do with going backwards.

Symmetrical skis should be marketed as skis for people mounting at center. It has nothing to do with park or skiing backwards. These are negligible compared to the performance gained from being at the center of the turn radius. I was led to believe skiing performance directional skis at center was the right thing to do for a freeskier by manufacturer marketing. But you lose performance skiing forwards, backwards, and everything else. I don't know why any manufacturer would recommend a ski to be mounted at center if the sidecut center is farther back, yet I still see this every year. I know there are some symmetrical skis out there, but there are a majority of freeski skis designed around a center mount with non-centered sidecuts. I don't get it.


TLDR: Being at the sidecut center means everything for actual performance. Why do so many manufacturers continue to make skis and recommend mounting at center if the sidecut radius is farther back? This is a terrible concept.
Jan 17 2016 10:37PM
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Caucasian_Asian
Posts: 2447 - Karma: 1,665
Because not everyone skis center mounted.

Why should a person that only skis forward ride a center-mounted symmetrical ski?
Jan 18 2016 8:05AM
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hemlockjibber8
Posts: 5990 - Karma: 3,619
He is saying that a lot of skis aren't symmetrical but they often have a freestyle line that is close to the centre of the ski and further forward than the centre of the sidecut. He is saying being mounted forward of the centre of the sidecut makes a ski perform poorly.

The reason is because they are making the skis to sell to the most people possible. The kid who mounts the ski true centre usually does not care about turn initiation and the finer points of carving because they are usually jibbing around, buttering, jumping, etc. The average skier is going to get on that ski mounted on the recommended line and love it. If it were on true centre, ahead of the side cut they would hate it. This is why when you go to a demo, the park/freestyle skis are usually mounted on the recommended line (to appeal to the masses) and not true centre (to appeal to us).

Why aren't all skis made symmetrical with a centre mounting line? Because a traditionally mounted ski definitely skis (not jibs) better than a centre mounted one.

That being said, sidecuts and mounting points have been moving forwards a ton in the last few years.
Jan 18 2016 8:24AM
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BLACKLIVESMATTER
Posts: 721 - Karma: 1,255
http://hgskis.com/?page_id=7

perfectly symmetrical dog, only center mounted, we dont fuck around with nothin else
Jan 18 2016 11:31AM
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zerospinskier
Posts: 4867 - Karma: 350
hemlockjibber8That being said, sidecuts and mounting points have been moving forwards a ton in the last few years.


That is true. I guess the worst of this was a few years ago when almost all the premium park skis were directional telling us to mount at center. 2016 skis do have much less directional park offerings the more I look into them. It seems what I am asking for is happening, only just very recently.
Jan 18 2016 1:06PM
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freeski1620
Posts: 5670 - Karma: 1,718
Because the Majority of skiers spend most of their time skiing down the hill forwards therefore most skis are designed to be skied that way. Understand what we think here on NS is a good idea only speaks for a small segments of skiers as a whole.
Jan 18 2016 3:04PM
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profa_212
Posts: 8982 - Karma: 36,920
freeski1620Because the Majority of skiers spend most of their time skiing down the hill forwards therefore most skis are designed to be skied that way. Understand what we think here on NS is a good idea only speaks for a small segments of skiers as a whole.


This.

Even as a park skier i do not think you should ever mount center on a non symmetrical ski. The swing weight difference in the 3cm is way more negligible than the turning performance. Only skis that I mount center are symmetrical.
Jan 18 2016 6:01PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
zerospinskierI don't know why any manufacturer would recommend a ski to be mounted at center if the sidecut center is farther back


They don't? I've never, ever seen a ski with a obviously directional sidecut and a recommended mount line that is in the center of the ski. Can you give an example of a ski that does this?
Jan 18 2016 9:11PM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,294
BogsThey don't? I've never, ever seen a ski with a obviously directional sidecut and a recommended mount line that is in the center of the ski. Can you give an example of a ski that does this?


My faction prodigies have two mount points one that says "recommend" and one that says "Freestyle Mount Point" and is nearly two inches ahead of where recommend is. It would be really easy to fall into the trap and say "hey I'm a freestyle skier, I should mount at the freestyle mount point." While that isn't quite the same as having a true recommend ahead of the sidecut I think it's indicative of the trend, and can make things confusing. (FYI I mounted at recommend and would not want to be further forward).

Not to pick on Faction, lots of skis are like this where they have a range of where to mount. My rossignol scratches have a line that says 0, and then a line that is two inches forward, suggesting that you might want to mount there instead of the 0 line.

I agree with zerospin. I can't see why you would want to be mounted ahead of the sidecut. It worsens the skis performance, even in the park, that slight bit of extra swing weight is not worth the performance loss. The only thing I can think of is that it's a marketing thing to appeal to a broader range of skiers, even though it's actively detrimental to skiers who want a true symmetrical ski + sidecut, making them think they can just move the mount forward without consequence.
Jan 18 2016 11:42PM
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skeetskeet9000
Posts: 181 - Karma: 365
My big mountain skis are an inch behind true centre because I feel that more tail helps me land better
Jan 18 2016 11:48PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
CyanicenineMy faction prodigies have two mount points one that says "recommend" and one that says "Freestyle Mount Point" and is nearly two inches ahead of where recommend is. It would be really easy to fall into the trap and say "hey I'm a freestyle skier, I should mount at the freestyle mount point." While that isn't quite the same as having a true recommend ahead of the sidecut I think it's indicative of the trend, and can make things confusing. (FYI I mounted at recommend and would not want to be further forward).


Right, but, as you said, the recommended line is further back. Companies aren't recommending you mount further forward than sidecut center, they're giving you an idea of where to do so if you do want to mount further forward. I'd be willing to bet a fair amount of money that most company reps, employees, would not advise you to mount further forward. I'd also be willing to bet that the reason a center mount line exists is so that people who do want that will have an idea of what it will look like and also so that whoever is mounting has as easy a job as possible doing it right. And not to mention the fact that, as far as directional skis go, the Prodigy is darn symmetrical. Even their recommended mount point is pretty far forward on the ski compared to a lot of skis that are much, much more directional than the prodigy is.
Jan 19 2016 7:16AM
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hemlockjibber8
Posts: 5990 - Karma: 3,619
BogsRight, but, as you said, the recommended line is further back. Companies aren't recommending you mount further forward than sidecut center, they're giving you an idea of where to do so if you do want to mount further forward. I'd be willing to bet a fair amount of money that most company reps, employees, would not advise you to mount further forward. I'd also be willing to bet that the reason a center mount line exists is so that people who do want that will have an idea of what it will look like and also so that whoever is mounting has as easy a job as possible doing it right. And not to mention the fact that, as far as directional skis go, the Prodigy is darn symmetrical. Even their recommended mount point is pretty far forward on the ski compared to a lot of skis that are much, much more directional than the prodigy is.


No. Many skis have a freestyle and traditional line. Many reps, athletes and designers will suggest mounting at a more forward line for a certain style of skiing. Companies do have suggest mounting further forward than the center of the side cut all the time.
Jan 19 2016 2:12PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
hemlockjibber8Many skis have a freestyle and traditional line. Many reps, athletes and designers will suggest mounting at a more forward line for a certain style of skiing.


Right, for a certain style of skiing. If you tell someone you're trying to ski switch a lot and land switch, then yeah, they'd recommend moving forward, but if you tell them you want the ski to perform the best it can, then they'd tell you to mount further back. Nobody is telling consumers that mounting a ski at center isn't going to give up some performance benefit like op is saying.
Jan 19 2016 2:46PM
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hemlockjibber8
Posts: 5990 - Karma: 3,619
but they are still telling you to mount it forward when the ski is actually not meant to be mounted there. They are not designed to be mounted there.
Jan 19 2016 5:37PM
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hemlockjibber8
Posts: 5990 - Karma: 3,619
I realize why it all happens as it does but I also agree with the op in principle. Ideally, they would make it so you never need to mount a ski ahead of the mounting line because someone has produced an all mountain or pow ski with the sidecut centre at or near true centre to appeal to those skiers. Obviously that's a small market and that's why it doesn't happen en masse. Also, differences in technique will call for adjustments in mount. DPS has their mounting line really far back because of a few of the designers but a lot of people in the company recommend mounting forward. Same with Black Diamond.

This was the OPs main point.

"TLDR: Being at the sidecut center means everything for actual performance. Why do so many manufacturers continue to make skis and recommend mounting at center if the sidecut radius is farther back? This is a terrible concept."
Jan 19 2016 5:46PM
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Session
Posts: 5397 - Karma: 22,412
hemlockjibber8but they are still telling you to mount it forward when the ski is actually not meant to be mounted there. They are not designed to be mounted there.



I imagine the logic is more along the lines of, dumbfucks are going to do it anyways....might as well put a line.
Jan 19 2016 5:54PM
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hemlockjibber8
Posts: 5990 - Karma: 3,619
...or how do we sell this ski to a larger market
Jan 19 2016 7:53PM
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Bogs
Posts: 4296 - Karma: 1,361
hemlockjibber8but they are still telling you to mount it forward when the ski is actually not meant to be mounted there. They are not designed to be mounted there.


Which is why they have the recommended mounting line where it is...they put the center mark there because they know people are going to mount it there even if it isn't best in terms of ski performance.

I guess we disagree in terms of a company's intentions. You seem to believe companies are sitting there and laughing evilly at putting a center mark on a ski along with a recommended mark to trick people into mounting there to get more people to buy the ski. I think it's to make everyone's lives easier and give people a reference as to where the recommended line is in relation to center if they are thinking of mounting somewhere else.
Jan 19 2016 8:14PM
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shin-bang
Posts: 4103 - Karma: 7,001
op I feel ya. That's why I bought Symetrical all Mtn pow skis, and they're all I could ask for and more. However, with the forward lean of my boots, and ramp angle, I mounted them at -1, so I wouldnt find my self having to lean back and not going over the handle bars. With the park skis they're tru center, and I feel leaned to far forward. However I think it's just my boots.

I I have no idea where I was going with that but I do love my Symetrical all Mtn pow sticks.
Jan 20 2016 12:29AM
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Cyanicenine
Posts: 966 - Karma: 2,294
shin-bangop I feel ya. That's why I bought Symetrical all Mtn pow skis, and they're all I could ask for and more. However, with the forward lean of my boots, and ramp angle, I mounted them at -1, so I wouldnt find my self having to lean back and not going over the handle bars. With the park skis they're tru center, and I feel leaned to far forward. However I think it's just my boots.

I I have no idea where I was going with that but I do love my Symetrical all Mtn pow sticks.


I feel like this is an important thing to keep in mind. There is a pretty good range in ramp angles as well as forward lean, which definitely has an effect on how your weight is distributed on the ski. Like you I ski a boot that has a pretty aggressive forward lean, so I dislike being too close to the center of the ski, since in practice it actually puts my weight ahead of the center of the sidecut. I found this interesting graphic showing how forward lean can effect your ski stance:



Forward lean can be anywhere from 10-17 degrees with 14 degrees being about average. That is a pretty huge range, and probably not something most people account for or think about when they buy boots, especially not relative to where they might want to be mounted on a ski.

This is a really useful thread since I often see "where do I mount" posts, but this is the first I've seen actually discussing what makes a mount choice good. The consensus overwhelmingly seems to be that weight over the center of the sidecut is always best, but it seems that things like your boot angles and body weight distribution may affect this.
Jan 20 2016 3:24PM
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